The MMO definition has evolved and the old definition no longer applies

TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
edited September 3 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
There are many threads arguing what an MMO is or is not.

I'll just lay it on straight. The reason no one can agree is because the definition is outdated. Simple as that. Some people cling to the old way, but most have moved on and embraced the new definition.

Lets look at older MMOs

Asheron's Call. Ultima Online. EVE Online. Star Wars Galaxies (as just some examples). All massive worlds with no instances or small co-op dungeons. They could be played by thousands in one single world.

Todays MMOs? Far more complicated and fluid. Today, many MMOs use co-op features instead of MMO features. Many themepark MMOs heavily entice people (with far better items than crafted) with small man parties, like WoW its 6 player limit dungeons. That definitely wouldn't be considered massively multiplayer in the old days. Does that make WoW not an MMO? No, but it is a great example of how MMOs are no longer the same from before and how the old definition doesn't apply.

Then you have MMOs that aren't very massive anymore, just the potential to be massive. Look at Istaria and there 5-10 off-peak active player base and then only 40-50 at peak...it has the potential to be massive...sadly it isn't and its a dead MMO. Still an MMO, but not really massive as it once was and in fact is smaller than most minecraft or even call of duty servers.

Does it make Istaria not an MMO? No, but that is where the fluidity of the definition comes in. People still consider it an MMO, because the definition of MMO itself has changed. It doesn't mean massive amounts of players or a huge living breathing world. MMOs are games like GW2, co-op experiences like WoW, or games like Destiny 2 that have many MMO features and feels more like an MMO than many MMOs do.

Does that make the other games not MMOs? No, because its a fluid definition. Many games could easily be considered MMOs in todays world. MMO definitions from even in the early 2000s no longer apply to today. The MMO genre has changed greatly, and now only oldschool MMO gamers are left not embracing the change. But they too will eventually give in and be with the modern times.

MMOs have changed, and that too means what is considered an MMO or not has changed as well. MMOs have evolved to be many types of games, and the old definition is outdated and no longer applies to newer MMOs.

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Post edited by TheScavenger on
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Comments

  • JHLotBJHLotB Killa CaliMember UncommonPosts: 6
    Fucking stupid.
    ScorchienForgrimmThumbtackJSovrathStoneRosesLimnicKyleranIselinforcelimaTemp0and 13 others.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    JHLotB said:
    Fucking stupid.
    How so? Definitions change over time and MMOs are vastly different than they were in the early 2000s.

    I know a lot of people on these forums won't agree (as in this quote), because the oldschool MMO gamers congregate here. But everywhere else, many games today are considered MMOs that aren't on these forums. The oldschool MMOers are already absolete hanging on by memories of old times, but MMOs are vastly different than they used to be. 

    The biggest example are the small co-op experiences most provide to get better items. Destiny 2 has about the same sized instances, if not a bit bigger, than WoW's instances. WoW from 1-110 the vast majority of time to get better items is in 6 man groups. In Destiny 2 if I recall its 24 sized instances...vastly bigger than WoW's co-op experience.

    But that doesn't make WoW not an MMO, both are MMOs in todays definition. You'd never see tiny co-op sized groups in old MMOs, because MMOs themselves changed. The people on MMORPG.com will argue otherwise, but that is because they are stuck in the past and haven't gotten into the more modern times of what MMOs actually are.
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  • TofkeTofke GeelMember UncommonPosts: 294
    "Like genders"

    ...
    *Walks away slowly without making eye contact*
    Wouldn't want the screeching to start.
    ScorchienLimnicKyleranforcelimakadajvolajuThebeastttRhoklawCecropiaTuor7Wraithoneand 2 others.
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 1,475
    Did this just happen?
    Real Fans of Chess don't get bored!
    Real Fans of Soccer don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of Baseball don’t get bored!
    Real Fans of MMORPGs don’t get bored!
    What's your excuse?
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    Slightly changed the title since people may miss the point of the topic.

    As for the topic itself

    The other thing that MMOs do that they didn't before is small capped instances instead of an open world.

    Star Citizen, each "instance" has very few players in each one. That is by far not a massive multiplayer game...if someone is going by the old definition of MMO. However, people still regard it as an MMO however, because the definition itself has changed.
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  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 1,517
    edited September 3
    I predict this discussion will become as annoying as the "is it F2P or not" discussions.

    Let.It.Go.
    Post edited by postlarval on
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  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,609
    There are many threads arguing what an MMO is or is not.

    I'll just lay it on straight. The reason no one can agree is because the definition is outdated. Simple as that. Some people cling to the old way, but most have moved on and embraced the new definition.

    Lets look at older MMOs

    Asheron's Call. Ultima Online. EVE Online. Star Wars Galaxies (as just some examples). All massive worlds with no instances or small co-op dungeons. They could be played by thousands in one single world.

    Todays MMOs? Far more complicated and fluid. Today, many MMOs use co-op features instead of MMO features. Many themepark MMOs heavily entice people (with far better items than crafted) with small man parties, like WoW its 6 player limit dungeons. That definitely wouldn't be considered massively multiplayer in the old days. Does that make WoW not an MMO? No, but it is a great example of how MMOs are no longer the same from before and how the old definition doesn't apply.

    Then you have MMOs that aren't very massive anymore, just the potential to be massive. Look at Istaria and there 5-10 off-peak active player base and then only 40-50 at peak...it has the potential to be massive...sadly it isn't and its a dead MMO. Still an MMO, but not really massive as it once was and in fact is smaller than most minecraft or even call of duty servers.

    Does it make Istaria not an MMO? No, but that is where the fluidity of the definition comes in. People still consider it an MMO, because the definition of MMO itself has changed. It doesn't mean massive amounts of players or a huge living breathing world. MMOs are games like GW2, co-op experiences like WoW, or games like Destiny 2 that have many MMO features and feels more like an MMO than many MMOs do.

    Does that make the other games not MMOs? No, because its a fluid definition. Many games could easily be considered MMOs in todays world. MMO definitions from even in the early 2000s no longer apply to today. The MMO genre has changed greatly, and now only oldschool MMO gamers are left not embracing the change. But they too will eventually give in and be with the modern times.

    MMOs have changed, and that too means what is considered an MMO or not has changed as well. MMOs have evolved to be many types of games, and the old definition is outdated and no longer applies to newer MMOs.

    You don't get to decide it though.
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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    I predict this discussion will become as annoying and the "is it F2P or not" discussions.

    Let.It.Go.
    The reason to not "let it go" is because if you posted on MMORPG reddit or here that Destiny 2 is an MMO, people get flamed and hated for it. Even though Destiny has lots of the same exact mechanics and instancing as MMOs do these days.

    So would the majority agree to "let it go" when people say Destiny 2 (or many other games) are MMOs? Or does "let it go" only apply to people who are up with the times and think MMO definitions today are different than they were before?
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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    edited September 3
    waynejr2 said:
    There are many threads arguing what an MMO is or is not.

    I'll just lay it on straight. The reason no one can agree is because the definition is outdated. Simple as that. Some people cling to the old way, but most have moved on and embraced the new definition.

    Lets look at older MMOs

    Asheron's Call. Ultima Online. EVE Online. Star Wars Galaxies (as just some examples). All massive worlds with no instances or small co-op dungeons. They could be played by thousands in one single world.

    Todays MMOs? Far more complicated and fluid. Today, many MMOs use co-op features instead of MMO features. Many themepark MMOs heavily entice people (with far better items than crafted) with small man parties, like WoW its 6 player limit dungeons. That definitely wouldn't be considered massively multiplayer in the old days. Does that make WoW not an MMO? No, but it is a great example of how MMOs are no longer the same from before and how the old definition doesn't apply.

    Then you have MMOs that aren't very massive anymore, just the potential to be massive. Look at Istaria and there 5-10 off-peak active player base and then only 40-50 at peak...it has the potential to be massive...sadly it isn't and its a dead MMO. Still an MMO, but not really massive as it once was and in fact is smaller than most minecraft or even call of duty servers.

    Does it make Istaria not an MMO? No, but that is where the fluidity of the definition comes in. People still consider it an MMO, because the definition of MMO itself has changed. It doesn't mean massive amounts of players or a huge living breathing world. MMOs are games like GW2, co-op experiences like WoW, or games like Destiny 2 that have many MMO features and feels more like an MMO than many MMOs do.

    Does that make the other games not MMOs? No, because its a fluid definition. Many games could easily be considered MMOs in todays world. MMO definitions from even in the early 2000s no longer apply to today. The MMO genre has changed greatly, and now only oldschool MMO gamers are left not embracing the change. But they too will eventually give in and be with the modern times.

    MMOs have changed, and that too means what is considered an MMO or not has changed as well. MMOs have evolved to be many types of games, and the old definition is outdated and no longer applies to newer MMOs.

    You don't get to decide it though.
    Nor do you either. So I will keep calling Destiny 2 (along with many others who call it that, along with many other games), because you don't decide what we call it either.
    Post edited by TheScavenger on
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  • ForgrimmForgrimm Somewhere in TimeMember EpicPosts: 2,421
    Let the poor horse rest in peace already.
    KyleranCecropia
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    edited September 3
    Like I said though above, most people on MMORPG.com and MMORPG reddit are oldschool MMOers so they just can't handle (as seen in this thread) that their old MMOs will never exist again (and also be successful with hundreds of thousands/millions of subscribers) and think MMOs can't change. Even though many others on other sites know that MMOers are far more broad of a definition than it used to be.

    So I think I gave enough evidence in the above posts. Sadly people here (not all, but most, too many old people here that can't handle change) just can't accept that MMOs like Destiny 2 exist and won't bother reading the facts. They'll keep complaining for an oldschool experience, but won't ever find it because MMOs today are not the same as MMOs of old and the very definition needs to be updated.

    Maybe one or two oldschool MMOs will come out, but will fail because oldschool MMOs are not what modern gamers want and it will show that people don't want that experience. While MMORPG.com would make it seem like 100s of thousands want an oldschool experience...its in fact a tiny majority who do. MMOs today are like Destiny 2, League of Legends, Heroes of the Storm, even Diablo 3 could be considered an MMO-lite.

    Eventually people here will be replaced with people who accept change and discussions like this won't have to exist. And it will be regarded that there can be many types of MMOs, and they don't have to be like old MMOs that barely anyone played.
    Post edited by TheScavenger on
    KylerancraftseekerCecropia

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  • ForgrimmForgrimm Somewhere in TimeMember EpicPosts: 2,421
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    KylerancraftseekerCecropiaTuor7
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,526
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.

    My adult gaming and mods website (various games, adult mods, screenshots, stories and other games I play(ed) 

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  • LimnicLimnic Member UncommonPosts: 113
    Well, at least these threads are a solid reminder why I don't post or look here more often.
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Somewhere in TimeMember EpicPosts: 2,421
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.
    I don't like the topic because it's been beaten to death on here and there's nothing new for anyone to say about it, and there's a thread already discussing the exact same thing one spot below this one. Maybe it's time to give the reddit random topic generator a rest.
    Kyleran
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 3,860
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.
    Funny thing that the Developer and Publisher of that game doesnt agree with you ....

             aint that rich ........... go figure
    craftseekerCecropia
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    Forgrimm said:
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.
    I don't like the topic because it's been beaten to death on here and there's nothing new for anyone to say about it, and there's a thread already discussing the exact same thing one spot below this one. Maybe it's time to give the reddit random topic generator a rest.
    Every day I see a thread about someone wanting an oldschool MMO or how new MMOs suck or how WoW sucks and that old WoW was better. 

    My adult gaming and mods website (various games, adult mods, screenshots, stories and other games I play(ed) 

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  • ForgrimmForgrimm Somewhere in TimeMember EpicPosts: 2,421
    Forgrimm said:
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.
    I don't like the topic because it's been beaten to death on here and there's nothing new for anyone to say about it, and there's a thread already discussing the exact same thing one spot below this one. Maybe it's time to give the reddit random topic generator a rest.
    Every day I see a thread about someone wanting an oldschool MMO or how new MMOs suck or how WoW sucks and that old WoW was better. 
    Again, this exact same topic was already at the very top of page 1 of the pub. It did not need a duplicate thread directly below it. Say what you want to say in that one.
    KyleranLimnic
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    edited September 3
    Forgrimm said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.
    I don't like the topic because it's been beaten to death on here and there's nothing new for anyone to say about it, and there's a thread already discussing the exact same thing one spot below this one. Maybe it's time to give the reddit random topic generator a rest.
    Every day I see a thread about someone wanting an oldschool MMO or how new MMOs suck or how WoW sucks and that old WoW was better. 
    Again, this exact same topic was already at the very top of page 1 of the pub. It did not need a duplicate thread directly below it. Say what you want to say in that one.
    You seem very threatened by the topic by this thread, that you want it gone from the front page because its invading your bubble of what a MMO is.

    However. The same can be true for anyone talking about oldschool MMOs, how WoW sucks now and how it was good before, or the countless threads repeated every week about free to play, or group or solo or an infinite amount of topics repeated every day and week. Why aren't you complaining about those ones and going to all of them about how bad they are since its been done before? I got it, its because you agree with the topic at hand. Hook line sinker, you got caught.

    Now onto the topic as that is what this thread is about

    The definition of MMOs just needs to be updated is all. Or maybe it stays as it is, and many MMOs then lose the "MMO" label.

    Is the definition to remain Massively Multiplayer like the old times? While like I said, nothing massively multiplayer about 6 man dungeons in WoW or small instances, so that would then make WoW not an "MMO" by oldschool definitions. Along with many other co-op based themepark "MMOs" or any other "MMO" that heavily instances their game (like Star Citizen).

    Or does the definition get updated and encompass a huge range of games? Many MMOs then keep their label, and games like Destiny 2 can officially be considered MMOs.
    Post edited by TheScavenger on

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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,050
    edited September 3
    Forgrimm said:
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.
    I don't like the topic because it's been beaten to death on here and there's nothing new for anyone to say about it, and there's a thread already discussing the exact same thing one spot below this one. Maybe it's time to give the reddit random topic generator a rest.
    Every day I see a thread about someone wanting an oldschool MMO or how new MMOs suck or how WoW sucks and that old WoW was better. 
    You could of course try to be better than those orher folks....

    Or not and be part of the problem.
    Post edited by Kyleran on
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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    Kyleran said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Forgrimm said:
    This thread is still on the very top of page 1 http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467911/okay-wtf-is-a-mmo-really/p1 Anything you needed to say could have been added there instead of creating a new thread.
    This thread describes what MMOs have changed into and that the definition is out of date for what an MMO is. You may not like the topic because you don't agree with it, but there are many threads here I don't agree with (and also many threads are copies of each other) but I don't complain about them just because I don't agree with them.
    I don't like the topic because it's been beaten to death on here and there's nothing new for anyone to say about it, and there's a thread already discussing the exact same thing one spot below this one. Maybe it's time to give the reddit random topic generator a rest.
    Every day I see a thread about someone wanting an oldschool MMO or how new MMOs suck or how WoW sucks and that old WoW was better. 
    You could of course try to be better than those orher folks....

    Or not and be part of the problem.
    Then you would agree MMORPG.com should make 100+ sticky posts for every topic possible so no one can repeat a topic? And then remove being able to make a topic, because every thread has already been made?

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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 1,996
    Now onto the topic as that is what this thread is about

    The definition of MMOs just needs to be updated is all. Or maybe it stays as it is, and many MMOs then lose the "MMO" label. 

    Is the definition to remain Massively Multiplayer like the old times? While like I said, nothing massively multiplayer about 6 man dungeons in WoW or small instances, so that would then make WoW not an "MMO" by oldschool definitions. Along with many other co-op based themepark "MMOs" or any other "MMO" that heavily instances their game (like Star Citizen). 

    Or does the definition get updated and encompass a huge range of games? Many MMOs then keep their label, and games like Destiny 2 can officially be considered MMOs.

    My adult gaming and mods website (various games, adult mods, screenshots, stories and other games I play(ed) 

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    And my Youtube channel (for nature/relaxation/meditation videos)

    https://www.youtube.com/user/Vendayn


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,819
    "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"




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  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 1,517
    Iselin said:
    "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"




    That's a blueberry, not an apple.

    /eyeroll
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