Okay WTF is a MMO? Really?

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  • VrikaVrika FinlandMember RarePosts: 4,099
    Quizzical said:

    As such, the best definition of an MMO is the recursive one:  if liking game X is strongly correlated with liking other games that you'd previously have thought of as being an MMO, then game X is an MMO.  Even if it's a single-player offline game.
    I disagree. I fear there's enough correlation that all tabletop RPGs would be MMOs.
     
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,201



    The reason some people insist on this definition is because that's the type of game they want to play, and by changing that definition they fear their favorite genre is getting eliminated altogether. 
    and I will say they are silly. Devs do not decide to make games because of some definition of a label. They decide what to make by their views of what will sell.

    If the traditional kind of MMOs are not selling, no amount of playing with the labels will make them selling again. The devs are not going to suddenly change their game design just because the label is miss-used.


  • VrikaVrika FinlandMember RarePosts: 4,099
    I think the large problem with Destiny is: What kind of game is it?

    Term MMO was created in a time when we didn't have dynamic server techniques like Destiny is using, and there's no established and recognized term for a game relying on that kind of servers yet.

    Term MMO isn't misused for fun. It's because our language hasn't quite caught up with the change and doesn't match the reality yet.

    I think it's at the point where worrying too much about term MMO is useless. We live in a changing world, and our language must evolve with that change.
    klash2def
     
  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,609
    Rhoklaw said:
    In all actuality, you can reference MuDs which came out before MMOs. MuD which stands for multi user dungeon were games that could be played online with other players. In fact, I'm still playing Gemstone IV right now. Anyways, at any given point, Gemstone IV could have a few hundred up to 1200 people online. So, Gemstone IV should be labeled an MMO because it provides the MASSIVE part of an MMO. Wrong. If a game doesn't have a 3D virtual open world, it can't be an MMO. If a game doesn't have any roleplaying elements, it can't be an RPG. If a game doesn't have first person shooting in it, it can't be an FPS.

    We have MMOFPS, which is Planetside 1 and 2.
    We have MMORPG, which is EQ, EQ2, DAoC, UO, AO, AC, SWG, WoW, FFXI and FFXIV, GW2 and so on
    We have MOBA, which is Overwatch and LoL
    We have FPS, which is BF and CoD series
    We have RPG, which is Witcher 3 and Skyrim

    We have a plethora of game genres which do NOT fall into the category of an MMO, let alone an MMORPG. MMO by definition that you quoted from the dictionary does NOT describe Destiny 1 or 2. Destiny 2 is an FPS, its an RPG and that is it. It does not allow for open worlds filled with 1000s of players. That would make it an MMO. Sure, its played online, but it is not a massive multiplayer online game.

    3d isn't a factor to mmoRPG.  Massively Multiplayer was a marketing term for the amazing goal of 500 connections to the server.  Strange additions to 3d or virtual world size is a perversion.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,201
    Vrika said:
    I think the large problem with Destiny is: What kind of game is it?


    I doubt most gamers care. Both of my sons (and myself) play the Destiny 2 beta. The issue of proper labeling never comes up. We just care if it is fun, and whether we like certain details.

    I doubt bungie/activision cares about that either. If it makes a ton of money, they won't care. 
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,611
    I doubt most gamers care. 
    But obviously they do. As you pointed out one of these threads pops up every week or two. Usually always with a different poster starting them. Obviously there are not only a sizeable quantity of people who care about the usage of the term MMO, but a sizeable quantity of people who care enough to create topics to set the matter straight.
    MadFrenchie
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 2,000
    edited September 2
    An MMO is played by hundreds, thousands even millions of people

    Once an MMO only has a tiny playerbase playing it (like Istaria/Horizons, that MMO with a playable dragon), that is no longer massive. There is definitely nothing massive about 50 or less players playing an MMO. I've played on Minecraft servers with far more people than that lol.

    At that point it doesn't matter if the server can hold one billion players or just 50 players, when an MMO only has a tiny amount of players playing that is not massive. There is nothing massively multiplayer about 50 (or less) players on an MMO. 



    Post edited by TheScavenger on
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  • DaikuruDaikuru StuttgartMember RarePosts: 733
    For me, an MMO(RPG) is a whole virtual, online world /galaxy to explore, filled with npcs and many other players.
    Where i can be / become whatever or whoever i want and where im not forced to do anything i dont want to.
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,244
    An MMO is played by hundreds, thousands even millions of people

    Once an MMO only has a tiny playerbase playing it (like Istaria/Horizons, that MMO with a playable dragon), that is no longer massive. There is definitely nothing massive about 50 or less players playing an MMO. I've played on Minecraft servers with far more people than that lol.

    At that point it doesn't matter if the server can hold one billion players or just 50 players, when an MMO only has a tiny amount of players playing that is not massive. There is nothing massively multiplayer about 50 (or less) players on an MMO. 



    We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,244
    Eldurian said:
    I doubt most gamers care. 
    But obviously they do. As you pointed out one of these threads pops up every week or two. Usually always with a different poster starting them. Obviously there are not only a sizeable quantity of people who care about the usage of the term MMO, but a sizeable quantity of people who care enough to create topics to set the matter straight.
    The person you're attempting to convince of that logic is perhaps the most invested in the topic, quite honestly.  So, while I certainly agree with your logic, don't expect him to admit to recognizing it.
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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,822
    An MMO is played by hundreds, thousands even millions of people

    Once an MMO only has a tiny playerbase playing it (like Istaria/Horizons, that MMO with a playable dragon), that is no longer massive. There is definitely nothing massive about 50 or less players playing an MMO. I've played on Minecraft servers with far more people than that lol.

    At that point it doesn't matter if the server can hold one billion players or just 50 players, when an MMO only has a tiny amount of players playing that is not massive. There is nothing massively multiplayer about 50 (or less) players on an MMO. 



    It was never supposed to be massive it was supposed to be massively multiplayer. How many people actually play it today is irrelevant if it has the potential to be massively multiplayer. If it's an MMO it's still an MMO when the servers are down for maintenance.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,201
    Eldurian said:
    I doubt most gamers care. 
    But obviously they do. As you pointed out one of these threads pops up every week or two. 
    I said "most gamers", not the few who frequent a MMO site. Also note that the posters in these threads are familiar faces like yourself.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,201


    We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
    So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?

    hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here. 
    TheScavengerIselin
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,822


    We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
    So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?

    hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here. 
    Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 2,000
    edited September 2


    We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
    So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?

    hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here. 
    Yeah, I don't get that argument.

    There is nothing massively multiplayer about an MMO that (and Istaria actually gets that low on off-times) only has 5-10 people playing. How is that massive? and how is that massively multiplayer? Often times those people won't say anything either, so its literally a singleplayer game at that point that happens to be able to hold more players but no one is playing it lol. 

    To me, I don't care if a server can hold 1 billion people, or 1000 people...if only 5-50 people are playing it, why does it matter if it can hold 1 billion people or even 1000 people if no one is playing it? That isn't massive, the only thing massive about that would be the server size lol.

    Definitely not very logical
    Post edited by TheScavenger on
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,201
    Iselin said:

    Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
    So if a game has the potential to have massively MP gameplay, but actually it does not in reality, it is fine?

    Well, no wonder most gamers don't care about the label of MMO. They are actually looking for fun, and what actually happens, not some hypothetical scenarios in the sky. But again, it is not like people on this site agree on what a MMO is anyway.


    TheScavenger
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,162
    We need a 'for the lulz' subforum for the phoenix topics. :lol:
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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,694
    Phry said:
    Loke666 said:
    MMOs Mean "Massive multiplayer online" so what is a MMO comes down to what the word "massive" means.

    Here is what Cambridge dictionary say:

    massive adjective

     UK ​ /ˈmæs.ɪv/ US ​ /ˈmæs.ɪv/

    B2 very large in sizeamount, or number:

    They have a massive house.
    She died after taking a massive overdose of drugs.
    If the drought continuesdeaths will occur on a massive scale.

    And it is number we are talking not size.

    Destiny do have 16 as max players, is that right? (don't play myself so it could be more or less).

    Is 16 a very large number of players?

    Every bloody FPS game today have that many or more so I would say it is average, not very large.

    Therefore is Destiny not a MMO and neither is Diablo 3. Any FPS game with 128 players on the other hand do qualify since that is indeed a very large number, like Joint Ops.
    Except the first M in MMO is not Massive, its Massively, there is a very significant difference.
    Whatever, you get basically the same definition:
    b. Large in comparison with the usual amount: a massive dose of a drug. (from free dictionary).

    So how is 16 players large compared to the usual amount of players in an online game? It is not.
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,822
    Iselin said:

    Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
    So if a game has the potential to have massively MP gameplay, but actually it does not in reality, it is fine?



    IDK whether it's fine or not or give much of a shit about that irrelevancy.  A game is what it is depending on how it's built not on who or how many play it.
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  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,529
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
    So if a game has the potential to have massively MP gameplay, but actually it does not in reality, it is fine?



    IDK whether it's fine or not or give much of a shit about that irrelevancy.  A game is what it is depending on how it's built not on who or how many play it.



    This is one of those situations where both of you are right.

    MMO by design - Iselin is correct

    MMO in actually having enough playerbase to function as a MMO - Narius is right




    TheScavenger
  • VrikaVrika FinlandMember RarePosts: 4,099


    We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
    So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?

    hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here. 
    We categorize games by how they could be played, not by how they are played at the moment.

    It's the logical thing to do because otherwise I couldn't tell you what genre Doom is without first verifying that there's someone playing it at this moment.
    MadFrenchie
     
  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 803
    edited September 2
    Loke666 said:
    MMOs Mean "Massive multiplayer online" so what is a MMO comes down to what the word "massive" means.

    Here is what Cambridge dictionary say:

    massive adjective

     UK ​ /ˈmæs.ɪv/ US ​ /ˈmæs.ɪv/

    B2 very large in sizeamount, or number:

    They have a massive house.
    She died after taking a massive overdose of drugs.
    If the drought continuesdeaths will occur on a massive scale.

    And it is number we are talking not size.

    Destiny do have 16 as max players, is that right? (don't play myself so it could be more or less).

    Is 16 a very large number of players?

    Every bloody FPS game today have that many or more so I would say it is average, not very large.

    Therefore is Destiny not a MMO and neither is Diablo 3. Any FPS game with 128 players on the other hand do qualify since that is indeed a very large number, like Joint Ops.
    Destiny has way more than 16 players on at a time. Are you thinking of GTA Online?

    Also I dont agree that its Size.. its the experience. That's like saying "Smartphones arent computers because they are small enough to fit in a pocket.. a computer needs a big screen and a keyboard to be a computer".. 

    A smartphone is a computer because it does the exact same thing a PC does just in a different way. It has to be defined at least as a TYPE of computer.

    Destiny is a MMO because it does the exact same thing as other mmos just in a different way. Its a FPS.. YES it is. Its online YES. Its not the same as COD as other are eluding to.. COD is a single player game with a battle royal style pvp mode with different maps. Destiny is a online world. The entire experience is online with friends. There is no single player or multiplayer option when you load it up. 

    To me its a MMO because it allows me to play with any of my friends, MEET NEW PEOPLE..while we are doing raids, dailies, dungeons, loot hunts, heroics.. etc. Its not the traditional MMO no I agree with you, but it is still a MMO.. again its the Smartphone vs PC thing. 

    People have to stop resisting change that is why the mmo market as a whole is in the shape it is in now. People want new things but when they get it, they resist and cry about the "Old Ways"
    Post edited by klash2def on
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  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,529
    edited September 2
    Vrika said:


    We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
    So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?

    hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here. 
    We categorize games by how they could be played, not by how they are played at the moment.

    It's the logical thing to do because otherwise I couldn't tell you what genre Doom is without first verifying that there's someone playing it at this moment.


    I think that most players just define a game by how it was intended to be played - in which case you are 100% correct.


    MMOs could have features (like realm vs realm vs realm) in DAoC that could never be experienced if only 3 players played the game and they were all in the same realm.

    So while by design the game is still an MMO, if only 3 players are playing it in the example I have above, the player experience is no longer a MMO - so Narius point is a valid one as well.


    Imagine trying to convince those 3 players they are playing an MMO - and they would be "but there is only 3 of us here so...."
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,244
    klash2def said:
    Loke666 said:
    MMOs Mean "Massive multiplayer online" so what is a MMO comes down to what the word "massive" means.

    Here is what Cambridge dictionary say:

    massive adjective

     UK ​ /ˈmæs.ɪv/ US ​ /ˈmæs.ɪv/

    B2 very large in sizeamount, or number:

    They have a massive house.
    She died after taking a massive overdose of drugs.
    If the drought continuesdeaths will occur on a massive scale.

    And it is number we are talking not size.

    Destiny do have 16 as max players, is that right? (don't play myself so it could be more or less).

    Is 16 a very large number of players?

    Every bloody FPS game today have that many or more so I would say it is average, not very large.

    Therefore is Destiny not a MMO and neither is Diablo 3. Any FPS game with 128 players on the other hand do qualify since that is indeed a very large number, like Joint Ops.
    Destiny has way more than 16 players on at a time. Are you thinking of GTA Online?
    And there are probably thousand of players online right now playing chess.  Chess still isn't an MMORPG.


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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,244
    edited September 2
    DMKano said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
    So if a game has the potential to have massively MP gameplay, but actually it does not in reality, it is fine?



    IDK whether it's fine or not or give much of a shit about that irrelevancy.  A game is what it is depending on how it's built not on who or how many play it.



    This is one of those situations where both of you are right.

    MMO by design - Iselin is correct

    MMO in actually having enough playerbase to function as a MMO - Narius is right




    Except we base genre classifications on game design, not popularity.  There's no "pop" genre in video games.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
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