Which MMO most promoted griefing?

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,588
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    KyleranlahnmirGdemamiJean-Luc_PicardConstantineMerusGeneral-ZodMadFrenchieRufusUO
  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 840
    Eldurian said:
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    Couldn't agree more. Now to patiently wait till you get called a snowflake for not seeing everything in black and white. The 'you're not with us so you are against us' attitude in this thread is staggering. But whatever, well said and I fully agree.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    GdemamiJean-Luc_PicardKyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAMember UncommonPosts: 865
    Eldurian said:
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    While I agree with your comment, saying that the entire community leaves due to griefing is a bit of an overstatement. Me personally, I would place poor design and power disparity between new and veteran players at the top of the "reasons why I left" list. Frankly, I don't think some of these OWpvp games would keep their players even if the PvP aspect was removed entirely. Anybody down to play a PvE Darkfall... No?!, why not? 

    I think we can all agree that griefing is a problem and the main reason why players who are new to PvP won't play but telling griefers to stop griefing is like telling people to stop being as$holes. I would much rather teach the players new to PvP griefing-prevention methods. This way they can still have fun regardless of that small percentage of the community that are jerks. Because you can design a good game but you can't stop people from being jerks.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,030
    edited September 11
    Eldurian said:
    While my own attitude at losing is a desire to get stronger and win again next time, I still realize that isn't the attitude everyone takes. I love PvP enough to endure some beatings to get to the point I am dishing them out. Not everyone does. Most people don't.

    What I utterly reject though is the premise all griefers give that "Those people aren't cut out for these games. We are driving the weak from our community to make them stronger."

    Too often they are driving everyone from their community. And then the community dies. Part of this lies on developers to lower stat based disparity and better protect those who are still learning the game. A large part of this falls on us, and the fact so many of us are more upset about "carebears" then the griefers that drive the carebear attitudes.

    People have the screeching knee-jerk reaction they do when they hear PvP because they remember getting camped by people they have no chance to resist all too well.
    While I agree with your comment, saying that the entire community leaves due to griefing is a bit of an overstatement. Me personally, I would place poor design and power disparity between new and veteran players at the top of the "reasons why I left" list. Frankly, I don't think some of these OWpvp games would keep their players even if the PvP aspect was removed entirely. Anybody down to play a PvE Darkfall... No?!, why not? 

    I think we can all agree that griefing is a problem and the main reason why players who are new to PvP won't play but telling griefers to stop griefing is like telling people to stop being as$holes. I would much rather teach the players new to PvP griefing-prevention methods. This way they can still have fun regardless of that small percentage of the community that are jerks. Because you can design a good game but you can't stop people from being jerks.
    I would have played DF if they had put in EVE like restrictions which give players some control on the amount of risk they are willing to take on.

    I don't  believe an open world FFA PVP game can retain a strong player base for long no matter how well its designed (the days of Darktide are long past) unless perhaps if you take away most of the power disparity (aka progression) which seems to be contadictiry to one of the core pillars of MMORPGs.





    Post edited by Kyleran on
    MadFrenchie

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,030
    Talonsin said:
    Probably Eve.
    You cant promote griefing more than this:



    Contract system is filled with scams
    Main markets filled with spammers and suicide bombers
    People will be your friend for months just to steal your stuff
    Devs have been caught playing and spawning stuff in for their corp
    A game card added that cost real money and can be stolen or destroyed

    I still miss this one and when I retire, I will be back...
    While I do admit there are a few places in EVE where some griefing is possible, I don't consider any of the things you listed above as falling into that categoery.

    I love EVE for providing players the freedom to be the villian, even though I never play it as one.

    EVE is actually better for its pirates,  marauding empires and yes, even for its "Goons," at least IMO.


    immodium

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,188
    Eldurian said:

    As long as your opponents are human a certain level of conduct is expected. The vast majority of people have no issue in sorting out the difference between actions licensed by the competitive nature of a game, and actions that constitute being a straight asshat.

    The fact the difference even needs to be explained to some people shows they lack a natural instinct to understand basic human empathy the way the rest of us do. 
    May be they just don't care, instead of not knowing. Why would anyone listen to you if they enjoy being a asshat?

    After all, there is no consequences, right? 

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,250
    Here is the reason why Smite hits my biggest list of Griefing allowed games along with evidence although it appears Hi-Rez employee have two different defintions.

    1.) Basically in smite discored which is located at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467763/www.redit.com/r/smite

    I asked a question if harassing players in chat threatening to report one another just because a new player is bad at the game is report worthy, I had a Hi-Rez emploee come out and tell me No, that Hi-Rez will not ban a person for harassing another player by the means of solicting reports on one another.

    Meanwhile "League OF Legends" for example will punish a player if they threaten to report another user or harassment chat solicting reports, its okay to report a toxic player or someone you feel is feeding in any MOBA, but its not okay to disrupt the chat in an on-going game for example because a player is new "making them feel unwelcome" and disrupting game play because that player might just press tab & mute everyone or turn off chat entirely resulting in a loss of the game for 3 or 4 other players who are trying to win and your in a game bitching at a new player.

    https://imgur.com/a/ElhyE The evidenice right here.

    However upon questioning a 7 day suspension because of getting reported by toxic trolls in smite, Hi-Rez got back to me and told me that its not okay for people to do this kind of harassment as seen here. 

    https://imgur.com/a/Y4dRI/

    2.) Getting banned for discord for no good reason, on the day that Vivox was released I was new in the discord and in off topic section I believe it was talked about how "Vivox is not a secure app" and how I could easily hack it by obtaining IP address of all users something among these lines, without any warning or discussion a so called Moderator, I can't find out their name bans my account the ban for that was reversed, but still Moderators that don't know what they are doing or have any knowledge in any filed they likely have no real education in Real Life, so I posted it on the smite reddit currently with like 60 or so up-votes.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/6wqxsu/is_vivox_secure/

    The problem with Vivox is that users in games can load up any IP logging program and obtain persons IP addresses this can be used for malicious purposes such as DDOS a user or kicking people out of their smite games aka if a person gets kicked from so many games they would get banned for leaving the game from Smite, Also no one was notified about this in the EULA or user agreement / privacy policy.

    3.) Yesterday late night someone posted a "somewhat Lwed looking image" in Discord which looked well, like a rear end on the smite app itself, but after looking at it it turned out to be a characters Arm-Pit I believe from streetfighter, needless to say I posted a response back to that in the off topic selection, and Immediately get banned without warning for a 2nd time, one of the moderators tells me I am testing the rules and it will not be lifted, so question rather is why the guy above me doesn't get banned for posting a so called somewhat NSFW picture, although neither of them were actually lwed images just a couple of things posted in fun you can click here to see the evidence its completely innocent but in the long run looks like its not.
    https://imgur.com/a/Dzjz2

    4.) After that I logged into discord with a different IP address to discover that one of the main moderators of the smite discord actually only temporary bans users for telling others in the discord "Kill Yourself" which is a popular thing thrown around in MOBA's to Grief team-mates often because they are new or lack skill which isn't nice at all, a person doing this will get a temporary suspension, but someone like me who posts a image joking around as a reply to someone else gets a immediately life ban?
    https://imgur.com/a/cJVst

    This is a copy of their rules in smite which only says "No NSFW" images which is defined as acts of violence, or actual nudity for example, not a illusion image or joke image as defined by the people posting these.
    https://imgur.com/a/vSArS

    This is my most recent griefer experience, where a Hi-Rez employee themselves says its okay to harassment others, and where moderators clearly abuse the rights they are granted immediately banning people off a server simply because they make a mistake or they feel a rule has been violated but don't actually warn the individual.

    I play MMORPG games still but mostly sticking to ESO, although currently MOBA, are the worst experience I see when it comes to Griefing, and Smite is one of the games where new players are feeling more and more unwelcome.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/6zqf7c/smites_community_is_not_newbie_friendly/
    ^ I am not sure but that may have been censored by the moderators of smite reddit?
    GdemamiKyleran
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 3,956
    I think EvE really no? It's pretty unforgiving about that also, it just happens, you cry a lot, many people rage-quit, others come and take their place, a loop that continues on going.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,588
    edited September 18
    So EVE has done one thing that actually helps with the griefing of newbs a bit even if most people won't tell you how to do it.

    The EVE killright system gives you rights to kill people who destroy your ships in highsec or pod you in lowsec. You can also set the kill rights so other people can activate them. This does little to dissuade people who target newbs but there is a major upside.

    When you make killrights available to others you can set a price. Common practice if you set a killright available to everyone is for the person you put the killright on to have an alt buy it in order to clear it out.

    The cool part is you can set a killright as high as about 10mil ISK and expect them to clear it. When they do, you get what they paid to clear it. So newbs flying ships worth less than 10mil (or ships that don't cost after 10 mil after factoring insurance) can recoupe their losses by selling killrights. So that doesn't mean that if you go mining in lowsec in a venture and forget to watch local you won't get killed and podded by some numbnut in a T3 cruiser.

    But it does mean you can sell him his own killright for more than your ship was worth, and buy a new one + profit.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
    GdemamiRufusUO
  • LerxstLerxst Phx, AZMember UncommonPosts: 615
    Any game where open, full loot PvP exists and is not policed, discouraged or penalized by any design in the game, whether it be a "city guard" system, bounty system, etc.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,188
    Lerxst said:
    Any game where open, full loot PvP exists and is not policed, discouraged or penalized by any design in the game, whether it be a "city guard" system, bounty system, etc.


    and you will have no one to blame if you get griefed in such a game, since you have a choice to play something else.
    Kyleran
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,588
    Lerxst said:
    Any game where open, full loot PvP exists and is not policed, discouraged or penalized by any design in the game, whether it be a "city guard" system, bounty system, etc.
    and you will have no one to blame if you get griefed in such a game, since you have a choice to play something else.
    And those of us who enjoy such games need to remember that if we tolerate community members who go around ganking all our newbs most of them WILL play something else.
    Jean-Luc_PicardVengeSunsoar
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