why pve is better

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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,923
    Eldurian said:
    Sure thing. I think I can get it off the ground at a level of quality people will really enjoy for about 50 million. Care to spot me the cash?
    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,804
    Iselin said:
    Loke666 said:

    I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.
    I agree but we're talking about a matter of degrees of imbalance. The progression inherent in RPGs will always have some: whether it's levels, gear or access to better skills you can minimize it but you can't remove it altogether without also removing the satisfaction of progressing which is one the biggest draws in RPGs.

    Even in games like ESO where everyone has always been bolstered to max level in PVP long before they also did it for PVE, the difference is in gear and access to skills that unlock over time through use of a particular skill line.

    But that's not what the incessant ESO PVP whining is all about. Even though it's a hybrid class/classless game, nerd rage focuses on those few things that are unique to a class not your own. Nerf "x" is by far the hottest discussion topic there.
    True, but we don't really need a perfectly even playing ground, just something that takes away some of the things that makes PvP less fun.

    I think a successful MMORPG need to be in the middle between traditional PvE MMORPGs and progression less FPS and Mobas. Enough progression to be meaningful (particularly if the game also have PvE) but so little that it wont split up the player into too many tiers (most modern MMOs have 80-130 levels and a tier where people actually can play with eachothers or fight eachother would be a 5 level range or so).

    20 level which each bring at least a new skill and not too many HPs would work on both playstyles. Say you start with 50 HP and get 20 times that many (1000) when you are maxed out, as an example on how the increase in power should be.

    And add a specific max power level you can get from gear (25% is good but anything from 20-50% would probably work).

    A level 20 would then get 20 times as much HP and at least 20 active or passive skills to play with + another 25% buff if she got the best gear avaliable. Sounds much? Compared to Wow it is nothing. And you will be able to fight with at least some chance then with people within 5 levels from you making it effectively around 4 tiers in PvP instead of around 20.

    Bolstering people to max level for PvP purpose work fine in smaller setting like arenastyled PvP but for something that would be more fun on a PvP server that just is impossible.

    We wont get progression and 100% fairness in a MMORPG, we have to pick one or the other and I pick progression. But we can make it less painfull and at least increase the number of interesting fights. In open PvP servers you could actually only PvP flag people 5 levels below and above you as well, with 20 levels that isn't so painfull. With 100 levels it would suck.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,764
    Iselin said:

    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    "Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."

    There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?

    You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.

    Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,923
    Eldurian said:
    Iselin said:

    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    "Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."

    There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?

    You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.

    Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
    You're being too humble. Your experience is probably above average for KS producers. You jut need to hire the right people. Matter of fact your ideas about future hires is usually part of the pitch. 
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,764
    I think you are massively underestimating the experience of Kickstarter developers. My favorite game ever, a game I played obsessively throughout my entire time in high-school was called Freelancer. Developed by Chris Roberts.

    Star Citizen Lead Dev = Chris Roberts

    Ultima Online is considered one if the pioneers of the MMO genre and is greatly beloved. Lead developer was Richard Garriott.

    Shroud of the Avatar Leader Developer = Richard Garriott

    Go down the list of kickstarter MMOs. You will find people who worked on SWG, Ultima, Shadowbane etc. etc. etc.

    By far the least qualified developer to get a Kickstarter off the ground was Ryan Dancey who still had experience working for CCP as a marketer and lots of references in the pen and paper industry.

    You don't just go on kickstarter with no experience and nothing to show and ask for money. If I ever develop an MMO it will be through money I've earned through other ventures I'm a bit more qualified to start. Not through panhandling online with nothing but ideas of what would make a cool game.



  • healboothealboot key west, FLMember UncommonPosts: 100
    pvp in a massively multiplayer game is great! Then add in the role playing aspect awesome!  As long as the focus of the roles being played is who's got the biggest sword. If the focus is exploring new places and helping the local population with defeating monsters with big swords I don't see what would draw pvp players towards it?
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,804
    Eldurian said:
    Iselin said:

    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    "Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."

    There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?

    You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.

    Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
    Yeah, you can't really make a good MMORPG without a good lead programmer no matter how great your ideas is. Vanguard proved that if nothing else, it had great ideas but lousy programing. It might never had become a huge hit but with a good lead programmer it would still be around.

    People who do art and write story might do fine with enough talent and other experience, story guys could be writers make pen and paper RPG products or just be really good at writing and you could certainly find talented people for concept art on Deviant art but for other people you need experience in the genre or at least something close to it.

    For instance, the team that coded Guildwars did code and design Warcraft 3 first, moving to a CORPG after that was no problem.

    The hard part is finding a good lead programmer, they are not that common and certainly tend to be employed. The only 2 I know works at Massive (well, at least we been drinking together more then a few times but neither of them are close friends). I also know a couple of people that can code but not good enough to lead. My own coding is rather bad unless we are talking about coding industrial machines of course, that I do for a living.

    So before even considering a kickstarter you need to find at least a good lead programmer and someone good at 3D studio Max or a similar program. Also, you need at least a small demo that test your basic mechanics so you know they work and have something to show people.

    Unless you can get a lead designer that people will buy anything from. I personally would fund anything Strain, Kaplan or Van Caneghem would kickstart, no questions asked. I know they would give me something for my cash and 2 of those people could lead program themselves while Kaplan certainly would find someone good anyways. None of the people like that would be involved in someone elses kickstarter though and either of them could get funding from an AAA publisher anyways  (a few best selling games tend to make that easier)so the point is kinda moot.

    People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
    Torval
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,923
    Loke666 said:

    People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
    Not that I was serious in the first place but the current record holder for highest funded MMO in KS history is Steven Shariff, a former(?) MLM vitamin salesman:  http://www.mmo-central.com/2017/06/03/ashes-creation-tops-kickstarter-mmo-funding/
    Kyleran
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomeMember UncommonPosts: 3,832
    DMKano said:
    Cake vs Pie

    It's a personal preference - one, neither or both
    You can compare those. In a bake-a-cake contest, a pie entry would be considered a very shitty cake.

    Just saying :p
    Kyleran
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited August 13
     I prefer the imbalance in MMORPG RvR PvP , and history seems to show it was the best experience for the majority of players that were there ..UO,DAOC, SWG ,ACDarktide, Warhammer, AO, all had imbalance in class vs class .. But it also cutivated the community , made battles exciting unpredictable and the most fun i have had in any PvP .. The exact balance act we are seeing now  , becomes very predictable and boring .. the irony of it ,,,
    Post edited by Scorchien on
    IselinSlapshot1188Kyleran
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,287
    PVE is great, but there should be PVE, PVP, and PVX, or rather PVE/P mixed together basically PVE as in you go out to slay monsters for resources but there are other players compete for the same thing so PVEP meaning you can die and they can kill the boss or acquire items as well aka like a survival kinda thing.
    gunklacker
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,981
    SIMPLE,like VERY simple...

    PVE does NOT need to be balanced and actually thrives on not being balanced,PVP needs to be balanced or the game takes a huge nosedive.
    So what is better,a failed game or a game that thrives,yeah pretty obvious.

    This question of course is taken to mean IF done in a mmorpg because in a first person shooter it is the complete opposite albeit still needs to be balanced.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,287
    Wizardry said:
    SIMPLE,like VERY simple...

    PVE does NOT need to be balanced and actually thrives on not being balanced,PVP needs to be balanced or the game takes a huge nosedive.
    So what is better,a failed game or a game that thrives,yeah pretty obvious.

    This question of course is taken to mean IF done in a mmorpg because in a first person shooter it is the complete opposite albeit still needs to be balanced.
    Balanced as in skills this is why u have two different skill settings one for PVP against otehr players and one that effects other bosses and display both effects / damage stats on the skills.

    You do this when you first start design or development.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,764
    edited August 13
    In both PvE and PvP there is an important balance question.

    Is there a point to every class / type of character?

    For instance if you have three general archetypes of melee / magic / ranged is there a reason people would play all of those, or would a team of all magic characters be better than a mixed team in so many more scenarios people never play the other two?

    If one of those archetypes can win almost every 1 v 1 duel but they all have their own reasons they are good, then balance is ok. It's when you feel forced into playing certain specs because they are the only viable ones in nearly every scenario that balance is an issue.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,542
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,280
    lol .. there is no such thing as "better". It is all personal preferences. 
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,804
    Iselin said:
    Loke666 said:

    People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
    Not that I was serious in the first place but the current record holder for highest funded MMO in KS history is Steven Shariff, a former(?) MLM vitamin salesman:  http://www.mmo-central.com/2017/06/03/ashes-creation-tops-kickstarter-mmo-funding/
    Ouch, that hurts. :cry:
     I meant "People should not fund just a good idea..." but I forgot that more then a few people are suckers for good marketting and buy anything if it have the right add.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAMember UncommonPosts: 868
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...

    image
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,366
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    gunklacker
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,196
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    That's probably one of the most understandable explanations I have seen.

    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    Loke666

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,732
    edited August 16
    I like to plan out what I'm doing for a session.  Dungeons, crafting, exploration, etc.  In PvP others can come along and plan your activities.  You can end up spending your time going back and forth in PvP.  Unless it's zoned or flagged then you have a choice to PvP or PvE that day.  
    Post edited by Octagon7711 on
    Torval

    "Change is the only constant."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,280


    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    It is not like you cannot already treat players as NPCs.
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,804
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    In a good PvP game you do work together with other players as well against a common enemy, the difference is that the enemy have other players behind them.

    Of course in a bad game everyone and their mother will constantly try to murder and rob you and I see why that isn't very relaxing or comfortable.

    You generally don't dislike players in FPS games you fight (or at least most people don't), the problem really isn't PvP in itself, just that MMOs often have between so-so and terrible PvP.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,542
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 7700k (4.80ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z270X-UltraGaming - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 4K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Pioneer VSX-322 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAMember UncommonPosts: 868
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.

    image
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