Alright, Caspian, let's dance

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,735
    Torval said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.

    Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward. 

    That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion. 

    If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe. :wink:
    Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...


    Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here. 
    Because taking potshots from safety is easier than adding constructive criticism so that's all they have to offer. Beside if anyone had any real constructive criticism that worked, outside of noting deficiencies, then projects wouldn't have these issues.
    Fixing their issues is not the problem of the consumer.  They're asking us for money, not the other way around.

    The consumer only has the responsibility to make a reasonable effort to educate themselves about the project.  Craz's attempts to act as if normal folks should know the in's and out's of software developer is the inane part.

    Next time you send food back at the restaurant, make sure you give them a post mortem on how they misused individual ingredients to reach a final product you don't enjoy, okay?

    First of all, I don't think they're asking you for money, are they? Please, don't back it! 

    If there is some reasonable effort to educate yourself on the project, PLEASE let me know. See, I've tried doing some of that and it seems as though you're taking that as meaning that I'm saying normal folks don't matter. No. Sorry. What's happening here is like me going onto a forum and asking how a black hole works. Then Steven Hawking comes on there and tries to explain to me about black holes and I'm like "Nope! I don't believe that!"

    I mean the person MANAGING the project gave some valid reasons for why the project is delayed and SOME people, including you, choose to ignore it. Specifically, staffing is one major part. Let's say I give you a project and you deliver me a project plan of 2 years. Part of that plan is hiring people for the project. Then I say "Cool! Let's do it!" Then you ask me for a requisition to hire people and I say that you can't right now. A year later I give you that requisition and express how I'm looking forward to seeing that project next year. That's quite literally an example of what's going on here. This is what I mean when I say that people aren't interested in logical debate. 


    Crazkanuk

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,185
    CrazKanuk said:
    So the argument is:  Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed.  Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have  internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...

    Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.


    Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system. 
    And here I thought the thread was over at this point...

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko JohannesburgMember EpicPosts: 6,538
    Sooo, I take it that if Jeromy Walsh hadn't run into "some problems", we'd have been playing CoE next month ? :D
    MadFrenchieKyleranYashaX
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,366
    edited August 18
    <sigh> way to completely ignore a glaring flaw in that rant: normal folks aren't qualified to judge the dangers of delays on such a complex project.  Folks on my side aren't ignoring the realities of game development; you're all ignoring the realities of marketing and the effect perceived positions of authority have on a consumers purchasing decision.  These effects are well-documented.  When they're used to gather funds for a project based upon such pie-in-the-sky promises and unrealistic timelines, they become predatory.  When you then become aggressive with your backers when they give you pushback about those promises and that timeline, you look even less trustworthy.  This is the entire reason investors existed in the first place; their jobs are literally researching the project at a level the normal consumer cannot.


    I'm sure there was someone in the Wild West attempting to defend the rights of snake oil salesman to provide a misleading overview of their product because no one is forced to buy it and normal folks just don't understand "modern chemistry"!  Doesn't make them any less of a snake oil salesman.

    And they assumed the PR risks of asking the public for funding.  No one forced them to ask the general public for money, right?  They chose to do so, and Caspian chose to confine himself to the unrealistic timeline and still attempted, for the duration of the KS, to insist that was a legitimate timeline.  If you have evidence of where he said "yea that's a pretty unrealistic timeline, just so you guys know before you give me money."  I've not read nor heard of such a statement's existence.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    IselinGdemamiGeezerGamer

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,735
    CrazKanuk said:
    So the argument is:  Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed.  Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have  internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...

    Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.


    Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system. 
    And here I thought the thread was over at this point...


    No, that was me simply telling you what you wanted to hear..... for reasons that should be obvious. 
    Slapshot1188

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,847
    <sigh> way to completely ignore a glaring flaw in that rant: normal folks aren't qualified to judge the dangers of delays on such a complex project.  Folks on my side aren't ignoring the realities of game development; you're all ignoring the realities of marketing and the effect perceived positions of anduthority have on a consumers purchasing decision.  These effects are well-documented.  When they're used to gather funds for a project based upon such pie-in-the-sky promises and unrealistic timelines, they become predatory.  When you then become aggressive with your backers when they give you pushback about those promises and that timeline, you look even less trustworthy.  This is the entire reason investors existed in the first place; their jobs are literally researching the project at a level the normal consumer cannot.


    I'm sure there was someone in the Wild West attempting to defend the rights of snake oil salesman to provide a misleading overview of their product because no one is force to buy it and normal folks just don't understand "modern chemistry"!  Doesn't make them any less of a snake oil salesman.

    And they assumed the PR risks of asking them he public for funding.  No one forced them to ask the general public for money, right?  They chose to do so, and Caspian chose to confine himself to the unrealistic timeline and still attempted, for the duration of the KS, to insist that was a legitimate timeline.  If you have evidence of where he said "yea that's a pretty unrealistic timeline, just so you guys know before you give me money."  I've not read nor heard of such a statement's existence.
    Except that's not really a good comparison though the point you're trying to make is good.

    "Snake Oil Salesmen" are blatantly lying about a complete product and what it does.

    AND they are preying on the insecurities/needs of less educated folk.

    A more "apples to apples" comparison would be a game being fully released and then not having anything that it is being touted as having.

    In the case of crowdfunded mmorpg development (or any game for that matter) there is nothing but promises as most of the time there is little to show.

    I've seen dozens upon dozens of these games and have rarely given to any one of them. Not because the promises weren't awesome or that the scope of the game wasn't amazing but because I saw no real evidence that some group of people with a dream could pull off what they said they could.

    Heck, I love the idea of Pantheon and if it launches will be there day one but I've yet to give them a dime and certainly didn't fund their kickstarter. Especially with it being as lackluster as it was.

    So it either falls to education (people just aren't educated in what they are actually giving their money to), or people don't care and are willing to give money just because they "hope it will come true".

    As far as this game goes, I saw how much they were asking and just thought it was ridiculous. And I like the premise of the game.

    The real issue, for me, is how unprofessional they are. It's as if they want to be the poster child for "cocky developers who think they know better than anyone else and can do more with less and also feel that they can say whatever they want because you are either with us or against us".

    It would be much better for all involved to just be respectful yet straightforward with what was going on. I almost think that they think that even if they don't launch the game they have had others fund their experience so that they can now apply for game development jobs at more established studios.
    ShaighIselinTorvalSlapshot1188MadFrenchieKyleran



  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,366
    Again, Sovrath...  You're not the normal person.  The vast majority of gamers do not spend time every day on a gaming forum following game development.  And they shouldn't have to to avoid being taken by predatory developers attempting to wow them with nothing but buzzwords and empty promises.


    I do realize the snake oil salesman isn't a 1 to 1 analogy, but my point was that the consumers are bombarded with too much marketing information to attempt to imply they're the only ones who can be held accountable in these situations.  It's unrealistic.
    Gdemami

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,185
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    So the argument is:  Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed.  Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have  internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...

    Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.


    Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system. 
    And here I thought the thread was over at this point...


    No, that was me simply telling you what you wanted to hear..... for reasons that should be obvious. 
    Some folks don't get sarcasm I guess

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,377
    genaknosc said:
    I can't imagine anyone truly believes this specific forum and website is for the purpose of having thoughtful discussions on games. It's really just a sounding board for all the crap we hate.

    So, in that vein - in particular, I hate how CoE is another example of a project that is destroying the credibility of the crowdfunding and early-access development model.

    I also hate when self-deluded, arrogant, and incompetent people take a great idea for a game and seemingly do everything possible to ruin the project.
    This is a much more honest and real response in my opinion. You don't have to justify those feelings to anyone for them to be relevant. All the attempts by people to rationalize and moralize how a project is supposed to be done miss this mark.

    I don't agree that it's destroying crowding credibility or viability. It may ruin their credibility, but there have been enough successful endeavors to counter that. Age and experience may make their next projects better whatever those are. As well it may engender a more thoughtful approach to crowdfunding by participants. There needs to be more of that. Maybe that would encourage green studios and developers to be more mindful about their projects.
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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,847
    Again, Sovrath...  You're not the normal person.  The vast majority of gamers do not spend time every day on a gaming forum following game development.  And they shouldn't have to to avoid being taken by predatory developers attempting to wow them with nothing but buzzwords and empty promises.


    I do realize the snake oil salesman isn't a 1 to 1 analogy, but my point was that the consumers are bombarded with too much marketing information to attempt to imply they're the only ones who can be held accountable in these situations.  It's unrealistic.
    While I appreciate that I'm not the normal player/gamer (and yes you are correct, most people don't spend a lot of time on game forums) this speaks to a more fundamental "let the buyer beware".

    People buy products and services every day. They also invest their money, donate their money, loan their money to various people/organizations every day.

    I find it hard to believe we have to make excuses for people who should be doing their due diligence just like they would be doing in buying a car, a house, a 2nd home, managing their retirement, choosing great equipment for their hobbies, arranging a marriage, etc.

    If anything, it seems that "gamers" seem to want to get a pass, almost as if they really are the people purported to live in their parent's basements, living emodiments of the man/boy woman/girl ideals who can't take care of themselves.

    But they're not. They are doctors and lawyers and professionals and craftsmen, carpenters, steam fitters, programmers and "what have you".

    They go through life like anyone else and learn the same lessons we all learn.

    If they are having a hard time managing their money and what to do with it along with where they eventually put it then that's a larger issue that's beyond game funding.

    Oh sure, I get your point, the average joe sees the pitch and doesn't know that game development is sketchy and puts x amount of dollars in because he/she thinks they are going to get the promised game.

    But if some alarm bells aren't going off then why haven't they learned their lesson.

    It's like the woman at South Station, during Christmas, who posted pictures of hurt animals and she was asking for donations. I was a bit suspect until another woman called her on her permit/organization and it turned out she was just bilking people out of their money.



    TorvalConstantineMerusStaalBurgher



  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,366
    edited August 18
    Right, but the reason those items are researched more heavily lies more with a long-term payment commitment, rather than a normal investigation into the purchase.  You'll noticed you mentioned solely large ticket, financed items.  Additionally, though the car salesman will attempt to make his product look as awesome ares possible, they also aren't offering the promise of ares car in the future; it's there, right in front of you, ready to be inspected to your heart's content.

    Crowdfunded MMORPGs aren't cars or homes.  They aren't as tangible; they don't have addresses nor do they exist in physical space.  It's a much more abstract concept to attempt to investigate and evaluate.  Crowdfunding developers don't even have to open their books to the consumer.  It's not just that the consumer doesn't have a realistic chance to properly evaluate; they have no chance to properly evaluate until it's a post mortem.  Then, it's too late.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Gdemami

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,847
    Right, but the reason those items are researched more heavily lies more with a long-term payment commitment, rather than a normal investigation into the purchase.  You'll noticed you mentioned solely large ticket, financed items.  Additionally, though the car salesman will attempt to make his product look as awesome ares possible, they also aren't offering the promise of ares car in the future; it's there, right in front of you, ready to be inspected to your heart's content.

    Crowdfunded MMORPGs aren't cars or homes.  They aren't as tangible; they don't have addresses nor do they exist in physical space.  It's a much more abstract concept to attempt to investigate and evaluate.  Crowdfunding developers don't even have to open their books to the consumer.  It's not just that the consumer doesn't have a realistic chance to properly evaluate; they have no chance to properly evaluate until it's a post mortem.  Then, it's too late.
    Yeah but I also mentioned "hobby items".

    Any time I buy something, if I'm concerned of the quality or whether or not I'm getting what I think I'm getting, I do a little research. I do this for restaurants as well.

    I think this is just part of life.

    Now it's true what you say that game companies are more difficult to research but I still don't think that's an excuse. If a company just pops up and says give us money and we'll give you x, y and z but there is no info, why would anyone do that?

    It's easy enough to google the people involved and see what their pedigree is. If they have never done something then look at their presentation. If the game looks like it's very far along then it's possible you might get a final product. If it doesn't look like more than powerpoint then that's an issue.
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,366
    edited August 19
    Your comment about restaurants doesn't jive with the analogy you seem to be attempting to pose.

    For it to be accurate, you'd need to research the chef in the kitchen, just as you claim consumers should be researching project managers and involved employees in video game products in crowdfunding.  Or, more apropos, you'd have to be referring (somehow) to doing your due diligence reference a diner that has yet to open, based upon the chefs they're hiring and those chefs' backgrounds, for the analogy to jive.  I'd bet good money you don't do that for restaurants or any other item that's released.  That's because you don't have to; you have a product itself to examine.

    That's the thing: this isn't a simple business transaction.  It's a promise based upon ideas.  There's no product available at the time of purchase.  You can't even compare it to research regarding released products or open businesses providing products, because they have not yet produced a product at all.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Gdemami

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,735
    Your comment about restaurants doesn't jive with the analogy you seem to be attempting to pose.

    For it to be accurate, you'd need to research the chef in the kitchen, just as you claim consumers should be researching project managers and involved employees in video game products in crowdfunding.  Or, more apropos, you'd have to be referring (somehow) to doing your due diligence reference a diner that has yet to open, based upon the chefs they're hiring and those chefs' backgrounds, for the analogy to jive.  I'd bet good money you don't do that for restaurants or any other item that's released.  That's because you don't have to; you have a product itself to examine.

    That's the thing: this isn't a simple business transaction.  It's a promise based upon ideas.  There's no product available at the time of purchase.  You can't even compare it to research regarding released products or open businesses providing products, because they have not yet produced a product at all.

    Yup! Sounds pretty risky, I wouldn't buy it if I were you.

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,825
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    That may be. Funding is always a potential problem with projects like these. Although their website indicates they have 3 million raised.
    "May be"? Nahh, I'm calling it now. It's over. A thing like this is entirely dependent on momentum to sustain itself. And this project just doesn't have it.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,847
    Your comment about restaurants doesn't jive with the analogy you seem to be attempting to pose.


    The poit being is that any time one does something, buys something, goes somewhere, etc, they should just do research.

    I don't necessarily need to research the chef in the kitchen though in Boston that's not hard to do if you look into the restaurant.

    The point is, if you are going to buy something, give money, invest in something, patronize something then you have to be an adult and either say "f*** it" I'll take my chances and accept the consequences or say "ok, these guys say they can do this, who are they, let's look into it."

    Otherwise how do these people get through life? Do the constantly complain they were taken, that they had a bad experience, that they didn't get what they thought they would because 'they didn't know'"?

    Maybe they do.



  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,366
    edited August 19
    They don't Sovrath because they have products to actually evaluate.

    EDIT- They get through life because, generally, you don't have to pledge money and then wait for the producer to prove their faith is rightfully placed.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Gdemami

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,096
    They don't Sovrath because they have products to actually evaluate.

    EDIT- They get through life because, generally, you don't have to pledge money and then wait for the producer to prove their faith is rightfully placed.
    Sorry for jumping in the middle of a such an intimate discussion! ;)

    But what do you mean by "you don't have to pledge money...."? Not being insulting or anything, I just want to make sure what you mean by that before stating my own opinion ^^
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,366
    edited August 19
    They don't Sovrath because they have products to actually evaluate.

    EDIT- They get through life because, generally, you don't have to pledge money and then wait for the producer to prove their faith is rightfully placed.
    Sorry for jumping in the middle of a such an intimate discussion! ;)

    But what do you mean by "you don't have to pledge money...."? Not being insulting or anything, I just want to make sure what you mean by that before stating my own opinion ^^
    It was in direct response to Sovrath's post.  He mentioned that people should be researching the names behind the product before supporting it because, otherwise, how do they get through life?

    But that level of product research isn't needed throughout life, because it's not the same thing at all as advertisements for, say, deodorant or restaurants.  Those things have a product you can experience, reviews-be-damned.

    These crowdfunded MMORPGs have no such product.  It's fundamentally different than researching a product on the shelf.  It's fundamentally more difficult for the average gamer to judge a product's worth based on promises.  It's fundamentally less consumer-friendly to ask consumers to put down money for a hope and a prayer.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    GdemamiYashaX

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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 806
    They don't Sovrath because they have products to actually evaluate.

    EDIT- They get through life because, generally, you don't have to pledge money and then wait for the producer to prove their faith is rightfully placed.
    Sorry for jumping in the middle of a such an intimate discussion! ;)

    But what do you mean by "you don't have to pledge money...."? Not being insulting or anything, I just want to make sure what you mean by that before stating my own opinion ^^
    It was in direct response to Sovrath's post.  He mentioned that people should be researching the names behind the product before supporting it because, otherwise, how do they get through life?

    But that level of product research isn't needed throughout life, because it's not the same thing at all as advertisements for, say, deodorant or restaurants.  Those things have a product you can experience, reviews-be-damned.

    These crowdfunded MMORPGs have no such product.  It's fundamentally different than researching a product on the shelf.  It's fundamentally more difficult for the average gamer to judge a product's worth based on promises.  It's fundamentally less consumer-friendly to ask consumers to put down money for a hope and a prayer.
    There are also laws and regulations that nearly guarantee a restaurant's food is at least edible and that a detergent will at least work to some extent.

    Not so much with crowd funding, which is practically a giant loophole way to get around all those silly laws and regulations that have to do with that nonsense thing known as "investing".
    MadFrenchieTorvalYashaX
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,969
    Again, Sovrath...  You're not the normal person.  The vast majority of gamers do not spend time every day on a gaming forum following game development.  And they shouldn't have to to avoid being taken by predatory developers attempting to wow them with nothing but buzzwords and empty promises.


    I do realize the snake oil salesman isn't a 1 to 1 analogy, but my point was that the consumers are bombarded with too much marketing information to attempt to imply they're the only ones who can be held accountable in these situations.  It's unrealistic.
    I agree that consumers shouldn't need to be feel the need to be highly educated on a subject but somewhat yes.

    The laws are just so slow in moving to protect consumers from marketing tactics,some do exist and some are just not adhered to well enough.However if there were no laws,most of these studios would go balls to the wall in trying to deceive the consumer.
    The most blatant example even though the law exist is studios paying streamers,You Tuber's to endorse their products.

    There are other ways to get around the law even when it does exist,businesses are just very corrupt in trying to basically steal your money or manipulate your spending.

    Someone mentioned the AVERAGE consumer and to that i say 100% correct because i see it almost everyday.Go look at twitch MOST of those streamers are trying to make money from streaming games "99% of them",they spend their entire day just streaming,they are not following other games or educating themselves on game design and what devs are capable of doing,they just see $$$ and look for the popular trends,which right now is Blizzard.

    So we are at a point where so many are trying to make money from gaming,it is like auto mode,Blizzard is popular so buy their games and get the most viewers.The other natural choice is the top Esport $$$.So neither are picking games out of quality+Fun,they simply look for popularity and potential $$$ and it is a snowball effect and a really tough train to derail.

    The point is of course that COE is one of those deceptive studios,there are ways,FAIR ways to sell a product and they are not using those methods,it is like most other corrupt businesses,give us money first then we might let you take a peek at an unfinished product.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,366
    Wizardry said:

    The laws are just so slow in moving to protect consumers from marketing tactics,some do exist and some are just not adhered to well enough.However if there were no laws,most of these studios would go balls to the wall in trying to deceive the consumer.
    The most blatant example even though the law exist is studios paying streamers,You Tuber's to endorse their products.

    The laws have moved very slowly with digital products in general and, more specifically, the internet.

    If someone ordered a a new 2018 model, special-edition Corvette, only to have Chevy then go "Yea, so we couldn't quite complete all the bells and whistles that were originally advertised, but here's an MVP without windows, AC, or power steering!" this wouldn't even be a debate.  Folks would demand Chevy pony up with the originally promised car in full or pay the many back.  But since it's a video game we're talking about, somehow it's the consumers fault.

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,377
    Tiamat64 said:
    They don't Sovrath because they have products to actually evaluate.

    EDIT- They get through life because, generally, you don't have to pledge money and then wait for the producer to prove their faith is rightfully placed.
    Sorry for jumping in the middle of a such an intimate discussion! ;)

    But what do you mean by "you don't have to pledge money...."? Not being insulting or anything, I just want to make sure what you mean by that before stating my own opinion ^^
    It was in direct response to Sovrath's post.  He mentioned that people should be researching the names behind the product before supporting it because, otherwise, how do they get through life?

    But that level of product research isn't needed throughout life, because it's not the same thing at all as advertisements for, say, deodorant or restaurants.  Those things have a product you can experience, reviews-be-damned.

    These crowdfunded MMORPGs have no such product.  It's fundamentally different than researching a product on the shelf.  It's fundamentally more difficult for the average gamer to judge a product's worth based on promises.  It's fundamentally less consumer-friendly to ask consumers to put down money for a hope and a prayer.
    There are also laws and regulations that nearly guarantee a restaurant's food is at least edible and that a detergent will at least work to some extent.

    Not so much with crowd funding, which is practically a giant loophole way to get around all those silly laws and regulations that have to do with that nonsense thing known as "investing".
    Crowdfunding needs platforms designed for game development, all kinds of game development. It's happening with places like Fig - https://www.fig.co/about . There is a section for actual investment and it's regulated by the SEC. There is a section for fan funding so there is a clear distinction between the two types of contributions.

    That sets a great precedent for a next step where federal regulators set stands and outline the responsibilities of every stakeholder - that means the studios developing the project, the service providing the crowdfunding and investment platform, the investors, the crowd supporters, and any other entity involved in the process.

    These regulations would help protect against predatory entities (from any sector) and hopefully provide a framework of base standards for product delivery.
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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,233
    Wizardry said:

    The laws are just so slow in moving to protect consumers from marketing tactics,some do exist and some are just not adhered to well enough.However if there were no laws,most of these studios would go balls to the wall in trying to deceive the consumer.
    The most blatant example even though the law exist is studios paying streamers,You Tuber's to endorse their products.

    The laws have moved very slowly with digital products in general and, more specifically, the internet.

    If someone ordered a a new 2018 model, special-edition Corvette, only to have Chevy then go "Yea, so we couldn't quite complete all the bells and whistles that were originally advertised, but here's an MVP without windows, AC, or power steering!" this wouldn't even be a debate.  Folks would demand Chevy pony up with the originally promised car in full or pay the many back.  But since it's a video game we're talking about, somehow it's the consumers fault.
    Not a good comparison, with the Corvette you are buying a clearly defined product, so very easy to tell what should be delivered.

    With kickstarter software you are basically buying into the promise of some rather loosely defined features, with the greatest definition being in the various add on tier items.

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  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 88
    edited August 21
    No it won't.  Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.  
    1 million to 3 million is irrelevant. Complex projects always have delays, it is to be expected even when led by experienced projects managers. So yes the only factor that reflects on their competence is the actual game. The rest is just malicious slander.
    You keep using that word... yet it's blatantly obvious you have no idea what it means.  Slander is when you make false statements about someone (you are probably meaning LIBEL which is writing them).  Saying that the guy miscalculated his timeline, belittled those who challenged that timeline and delayed his project by at least a year is neither slander nor libel.  It's called FACT.  

    Ah, internet semantics. The holdout of everyone that has no point. No... you clearly have no idea what is being said. People get timelines wrong (even experienced project managers) and he posted an angry reply to a few internet trolls. While not desirable, none of that reflects on their competence to actually produce a game.

    So yes, harping on that they are incompetent because some people (maybe you included?) got an angry reply because of a few internet trolls is slander. Now you are upset and trying to damage their reputation. It is pretty clear to me what your agenda is.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
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