Alright, Caspian, let's dance

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Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,274
    edited August 18
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    That may be. Funding is always a potential problem with projects like these. Although their website indicates they have 3 million raised.
    Still no where near enough to deliver what they promised unless all of the devs are doing this for free while working other jobs elsewhere, much as the folks at Saga of Lucima are doing. 


    Post edited by Kyleran on

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

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  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 88
    Kyleran said:
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    That may be. Funding is always a potential problem with projects like these. Although their website indicates they have 3 million raised.
    Still no where near enough to deliver what they promised unless all of the devs are doing this for free while working other jobs elsewhere, much as the folks at Saga of Lucima are doing. 


    Yeah 3 million doesn't seem enough but at least it gives them some breathing space to make progress. And that will be the only true proof of their competency or not.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,196
    Kyleran said:
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    That may be. Funding is always a potential problem with projects like these. Although their website indicates they have 3 million raised.
    Still no where near enough to deliver what they promised unless all of the devs are doing this for free while working other jobs elsewhere, much as the folks at Saga of Lucima are doing. 


    Yeah 3 million doesn't seem enough but at least it gives them some breathing space to make progress. And that will be the only true proof of their competency or not.
    No it won't.  Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.  
    MadFrenchieGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,439
    edited August 18
    Kyleran said:
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    That may be. Funding is always a potential problem with projects like these. Although their website indicates they have 3 million raised.
    Still no where near enough to deliver what they promised unless all of the devs are doing this for free while working other jobs elsewhere, much as the folks at Saga of Lucima are doing. 


    Yeah 3 million doesn't seem enough but at least it gives them some breathing space to make progress. And that will be the only true proof of their competency or not.
    No it won't.  Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.  
    Well no Slapshot, we've all just accepted that it's okay for game developers to give silly dates and make unrealistic promises because software development!  That PROVES their competency!

    It's us consumers' faults for not having went to college to study software development so we can be "in the know," like so many here who insist developers shan't be held responsible for their own spiels.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Slapshot1188Gdemami

    image
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    Kyleran said:
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    That may be. Funding is always a potential problem with projects like these. Although their website indicates they have 3 million raised.
    Still no where near enough to deliver what they promised unless all of the devs are doing this for free while working other jobs elsewhere, much as the folks at Saga of Lucima are doing. 


    Yeah 3 million doesn't seem enough but at least it gives them some breathing space to make progress. And that will be the only true proof of their competency or not.
    No it won't.  Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.  
    Well no Slapshot, we've all just accepted that it's okay for game developers to give silly dates and make unrealistic promises because software development!  That PROVES their competency!

    It's us consumers' faults for not having went to college to study software development so we can be "in the know," like so many here who insist developers shan't be held responsible for their own spiels.

    This is just the most fucking retarded thing I've ever heard. It has less to do with a college education and more to do with a grade school education. There are people on here who ARE professionals who are telling REAL WORLD stories about how ACTUAL software projects are being poorly scheduled on a daily basis. We've got another person telling us how he gets a bonus if he delivers only 20% or less late. What does that tell you? What's more hilarious than people telling you "There, there, you don't understand because you're not educated enough" is you making this type of remark when MANY Project Managers are backing up the fact that projects run late routinely. I could probably attempt to educate you on the reasoning for that, but I doubt, very much, that you'd listen since you seem to have no room for logic with the two or three witty responses you've got bouncing around in that tiny brain. 
    MadFrenchie

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,196
    So the argument is:  Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed.  Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have  internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...

    Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.

    MadFrenchieGdemamiKyleranAsm0deusSpottyGekko

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,439
    So the argument is:  Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed.  Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have  internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...

    Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.

    Exactly.  Craz, you're so focused on project development that you're not even seeing the real argument I'm making.  But thanks for the laugh.
    Gdemami

    image
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    So the argument is:  Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed.  Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have  internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...

    Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.


    Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system. 
    MadFrenchie

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 88
    edited August 18
    No it won't.  Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.  
    1 million to 3 million is irrelevant. Complex projects always have delays, it is to be expected even when led by experienced projects managers. So yes the only factor that reflects on their competence is the actual game. The rest is just malicious slander.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
    MadFrenchieSlapshot1188
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 88
    Slapshot1188 said:

    they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... 

    While he shouldn't have done that, I struggle to feel sympathy for trolls on the internet that attack a project and get a huffy response from its creator. Still no basis to question their competency. Question the viability of the project? Maybe. But it has nothing to do with competency.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,196
    No it won't.  Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.  
    1 million to 3 million is irrelevant. Complex projects always have delays, it is to be expected even when led by experienced projects managers. So yes the only factor that reflects on their competence is the actual game. The rest is just malicious slander.
    You keep using that word... yet it's blatantly obvious you have no idea what it means.  Slander is when you make false statements about someone (you are probably meaning LIBEL which is writing them).  Saying that the guy miscalculated his timeline, belittled those who challenged that timeline and delayed his project by at least a year is neither slander nor libel.  It's called FACT.  

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,812
    No it won't.  Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.  
    1 million to 3 million is irrelevant. Complex projects always have delays, it is to be expected even when led by experienced projects managers. So yes the only factor that reflects on their competence is the actual game. The rest is just malicious slander.
    You keep using that word... yet it's blatantly obvious you have no idea what it means.  Slander is when you make false statements about someone (you are probably meaning LIBEL which is writing them).  Saying that the guy miscalculated his timeline, belittled those who challenged that timeline and delayed his project by at least a year is neither slander nor libel.  It's called FACT.  

    The "belittled" part is an opinion, not a fact ... since you were getting technical I figured I'd help you out!  :D
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,927
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
    Slapshot1188GdemamiAsm0deus
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,445
    Kyleran said:
    YashaX said:


    You have over-promised and under-delivered on nearly everything that has come out of your mouth, and the worse part is you always point fingers at someone or something else when it happens. You are the leader of your company, it is your fault when promises are broken no matter where the responsibility lies and when you try to deflect it makes you look weak and desperate to keep an image that you lost a long time ago but fail to see it.

    Reading this reminds me so much of a certain other controversial leader, lol.

    Richard G, Brad, Smed, Chris R, Mark J, oh just who could you mean? 

    B)

    Good one! It takes a certain ego and a bit of dangerous courage to lead million dollar massive scope projects that are squarely in the public eye.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,445
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    I have a feeling he was merely responding in kind. Kind of hard to take that as a valid base for criticism given this forum's reputation.
    Except he also belittled folks in his own forums for daring to question his timeline.  Links and quotes are readily available. So let's not blame the forum for him acting like an ass.
    I doubt he responded like that to normal commentary. 
    Maybe you should read a bit more about what Mr Caspien actually has said.  Here's an example of how he responded to legitimate questions about his ridiculously unrealistic timeline (which proved to be right as he just announced a year plus delay):

    --------

    Q:The stated timeline of end of 2017 for FULL RELASE is not a realistic one. Not even close.

    JW:Noted. I'm curious, however, what you're basing that on? Is it based on your development experience? Your insider knowledge into what business deals we've been working on? Have you peeked at our Gantt chart? Maybe you feel like using purchased assets from the Unreal Marketplace won't speed up development? Could it be you know that our choice of programming language for the server will slow down development? Anything? You got anything to substantiate your claim?

    --------------

    Yup.  Great way to answer a legitimate (and proven correct) concern.  You know the best part.  It's the second half of 2017 and they have not only missed the FULL RELEASE, but they haven't even started ALPHA yet!  Nor any of the silly extra games he has promised such as the MUD the Kingdoms game, the Prologue.  That's how fucked up his timeline was.  Think about that. They were supposed to be starting the Exposition of Launch in a few weeks and they haven't even started ALPHA testing.

    PS: To this date I haven't read an apology from him.  It certainly wasn't included in his State of Elyria post where he announced the delay.  Maybe he did it in a random post?  Since he is delaying the game by a YEAR (at least) and unable to fulfill his Kickstarter promises is he offering people a chance to refund their pledge?  If so, please link that for me.



    Oh god..... You're right, he didn't hit that date and it's not even in alpha. You're right! Is that what you need to hear? Or are we still going to be hearing about how he promised a 2017 release 2 years from now a la Star Citizen's 2014 release? Honestly, it's just getting tired. Yes, they missed a release date, they explained why, and they issued a revised date. Carry on! Again, I love how you are soooooooo stalwart in your attempt to prove that this project is so horribly managed and yet you are a stalwart supporter of CU which is similarly off the rails. We GET IT!!! You don't like this guy because he's an asshole! You know what? Don't fucking back the project! Move the fuck on sunshine! That horse is dead! 
    Nope...  stalwart defender?  Lol. Funny.  
    You can rag on CU all you want.  Unlike others I have no innate need to defend a game.  As I said, both CU and CoE showed incompetence or untruthfulness.  The difference is that CU acknowledged that they ere actually embarrassed by this and apologized and offered refunds.  But if you want to call them incompetent you'd be right.  Heck even MJ would likely agree!

    You should probably let your anger go.  Stick to discussing facts. As there is no actual game to talk about with COE... all we have to discuss are promises, all of which so far are undelivered.

    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.


    Cool, we'll go with that. Something tells me that your agenda is highly dependent on the context, though, as evidenced on the forums. That's fine though, keep discussing "facts". 
    Highly curated and massaged "facts", always.
    Notice: The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,439
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
    For whatever reason, the fact that it's a software product means it's above all the normal responsibilities and expectations you would hold any other producer to, despite other industries dealing with unforeseen roadblocks and delays just the same.

    Part of project management is anticipating and resolving issues that hold up progress towards completion of the project.  That's a universal truth that isn't really bound by the type of product.  All sophisticated projects hit snags.  The only difference between a traditional project and crowdfunding is that the "investors" here are much more gullible.
    Gdemami

    image
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,445
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
    For whatever reason, the fact that it's a software product means it's above all the normal responsibilities and expectations you would hold any other producer to, despite other industries dealing with unforeseen roadblocks and delays just the same.

    Part of project management is anticipating and resolving issues that hold up progress towards completion of the project.  That's a universal truth that isn't really bound by the type of product.  All sophisticated projects hit snags.  The only difference between a traditional project and crowdfunding is that the "investors" here are much more gullible.
    You had a good point up until that last bit. The project part is dead on, although you make it sound so much simpler than it really is. Sometimes even when you see the train coming down the tunnel there is nothing you can do to stop the wreck, even if you try. With complex projects no one entity can control all the variables of all the other entities and actors. It's simply not possible.
    Notice: The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: Flesh For Lulu
    Album: Plastic Fantastic
    Featured Tracks: Decline and Fall, Time & Space, I Go Crazy (bonus track on digital release)
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,274
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
    For whatever reason, the fact that it's a software product means it's above all the normal responsibilities and expectations you would hold any other producer to, despite other industries dealing with unforeseen roadblocks and delays just the same.

    Part of project management is anticipating and resolving issues that hold up progress towards completion of the project.  That's a universal truth that isn't really bound by the type of product.  All sophisticated projects hit snags.  The only difference between a traditional project and crowdfunding is that the "investors" here are much more gullible.
    You had a good point up until that last bit. The project part is dead on, although you make it sound so much simpler than it really is. Sometimes even when you see the train coming down the tunnel there is nothing you can do to stop the wreck, even if you try. With complex projects no one entity can control all the variables of all the other entities and actors. It's simply not possible.
    Hence the cone of uncertainty diagram Caspian shared in his update,  clearly someone taught him something new.
    TorvalSlapshot1188

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    edited August 18
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.

    Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward. 

    That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion. 

    If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe. :wink:
    Post edited by CrazKanuk on
    Torval

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,196
    CrazKanuk said:


    Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe. :wink:
    Maybe the dog ate Caspien's homework?




    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,927
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.

    Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward. 

    That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion. 

    If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe. :wink:
    Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...
    Gdemami
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    Iselin said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.

    Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward. 

    That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion. 

    If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe. :wink:
    Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...


    Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here. 
    TorvalGdemami

    Crazkanuk

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,445
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.

    Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward. 

    That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion. 

    If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe. :wink:
    Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...


    Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here. 
    Because taking potshots from safety is easier than adding constructive criticism so that's all they have to offer. Beside if anyone had any real constructive criticism that worked, outside of noting deficiencies, then projects wouldn't have these issues.
    StaalBurgher
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,439
    Torval said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.

    But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.

    I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.

    Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward. 

    That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion. 

    If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe. :wink:
    Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...


    Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here. 
    Because taking potshots from safety is easier than adding constructive criticism so that's all they have to offer. Beside if anyone had any real constructive criticism that worked, outside of noting deficiencies, then projects wouldn't have these issues.
    Fixing their issues is not the problem of the consumer.  They're asking us for money, not the other way around.

    The consumer only has the responsibility to make a reasonable effort to educate themselves about the project.  Craz's attempts to act as if normal folks should know the in's and out's of software developer is the inane part.

    Next time you send food back at the restaurant, make sure you give them a post mortem on how they misused individual ingredients to reach a final product you don't enjoy, okay?
    Gdemami

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  • genaknoscgenaknosc Member UncommonPosts: 81
    I can't imagine anyone truly believes this specific forum and website is for the purpose of having thoughtful discussions on games. It's really just a sounding board for all the crap we hate.

    So, in that vein - in particular, I hate how CoE is another example of a project that is destroying the credibility of the crowdfunding and early-access development model.

    I also hate when self-deluded, arrogant, and incompetent people take a great idea for a game and seemingly do everything possible to ruin the project.
    TorvalGdemami
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