Alright, Caspian, let's dance

1356711

Comments

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko JohannesburgMember EpicPosts: 6,565
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It's quite clear that Jeromy Walsh doesn't know what he's doing.

    All his assumptions about MMO development have been proven wrong so far. Things really are a lot more complex than he imagined.

    But there's one thing he clearly has a talent for: making excuses.

    We can only hope that his KS-funded "learning experience" bears fruit a few years from now. Miracles do happen, they say...
    GdemamiSlapshot1188
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,868
    CrazKanuk said:

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 
    This is exactly my point. No one is disputing that Caspian's response was unprofessional but it has absolutely nothing to do with his competency or honesty, and it certainly would have made no difference to the maliciousness to which he was most likely responding. All it reflects really is that he is concerned for his project and the trolls got to him.
    I'd say his lack of competency and perhaps even his lack of honesty is also clearly indisputable as well as evidenced by his ridiculous original estimates for the game's delivery which he vigorously defended.


    Slapshot1188Asm0deusGdemamicraftseekerYashaX

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,868
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.


    I would suggest few are, let alone people without any sort of training in project management. They have certifications for a reason I assume. i think there is probably some good evidence to support that idea. Fuck! Who woulda known, right? Here I just thought you could slide anyone into a PM position! 
    Reminds me of a time I was assigned to assist a very large, complex program which was 4 months into a "promised" 1 year delivery date.

    After the AD lead completed his briefing I gave him my honest opinion that it would take roughly 3 years to complete all phases of the program. (Thinking he must clearly already realize this)

    He blew up on me,  saying he would fire anyone who wasn't onboard to make this happen in the original schedule.

    Well, I shut my mouth and threw myself into it, eventually taking over the entire program delivery as others quit or ran from it.

    He probably should have fired me, as my original estimate was well off, took 3.5 years to complete the final release, I missed it by 6 months.  ;)




    ConstantineMerusCrazKanukYashaX

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    Kyleran said:
    CrazKanuk said:

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 
    This is exactly my point. No one is disputing that Caspian's response was unprofessional but it has absolutely nothing to do with his competency or honesty, and it certainly would have made no difference to the maliciousness to which he was most likely responding. All it reflects really is that he is concerned for his project and the trolls got to him.
    I'd say his lack of competency and perhaps even his lack of honesty is also clearly indisputable as well as evidenced by his ridiculous original estimates for the game's delivery which he vigorously defended.


    Well this is where the hyperbole begins. As the project is large and complex and project managers often have to extend timelines it is hardly indicative of anything but the difficulty in predicting future events. He probably already knew the timeline was ambitious and was likely to slip.

    To me his response sounds like was not arguing about the exact accuracy of his timeline but more against the general maliciousness that he was facing from anonymous people on the internet. Equating the two are easy but mistaken. He got riled by the trollish nature of the internet. A mistake certainly but the only proof his response provides is that he needed a PR manager sooner.
    YashaX
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,532
    Caspian didn't lie about his background, he didn't lie about the team, he didn't lie about the goal and he definitely try to build a game. That means its not a scam. He is just someone new in the business that wants to create interest for his project.

    If you viewed it objectively you know that mmorpg is extremely time consuming and takes all sorts of expertise to create. You know that being innovative increase the risk. You would understand that it take tens of millions of dollar to create an mmorpg. Given that he is completely new to building games you would know that the chance of them actually making the game is extremely small and that building it in 1.5 years is a pipe dream.
     
    I honestly thought that this game wouldn't be funded in the first place and I was surprised people were so quick on throwing money on someone with zero experience on making games. The game development itself is going exactly as expected.
    StaalBurgherHerase
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • slagathoreslagathore Member UncommonPosts: 29
    edited August 16
    This is exactly my point. No one is disputing that Caspian's response was unprofessional but it has absolutely nothing to do with his competency or honesty, and it certainly would have made no difference to the maliciousness to which he was most likely responding. All it reflects really is that he is concerned for his project and the trolls got to him.
    It has a lot to do with his competency and honesty. He's proven he isn't competent to handle the project, at least not in the real business world. That is also why I still say and will continue to say he can't attract talent. Professionals do their due diligence. They research who their professional name will be associated with. When they see the shit-storm he's already caused for his brand, that would be a huge red flag. Then they see the time lines for the project and think either it's doomed to fail or they will be asked to work their asses off under insane dead lines. They also have to see how they doubled their projections which, in theory, will double their financial needs and are asking themselves if Caspian can afford them for the length of the project.

    He's also been dishonest many times. During KS he said his team were all employees, later he slipped and said only one of them was being paid. On the KS page he mentions how he had investors (plural) waiting to throw money at him if the KS proved it was attractive to enough people (which clearly it was) but later he admits there is one investor (singular), a family member or friend I believe. He said the website store was ready to go once KS ended but then it took him 3 weeks and blamed it on someone overseas.

    Post edited by slagathore on
    GdemamiSlapshot1188
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    Which is all speculation and semantics. My understanding is that they have recruited new people now, it just took longer than expected. Salary is what usually drives recruitment of most top professionals and given CoE's restricted funds I doubt they can offer top-drawer pay. They have to find the handful that are willing to take a pay cut to do something they find exciting. I doubt internet drama that will be forgotten as soon as the game has a reasonable launch is much of a factor.

    You have no idea what discussion takes place internally. Like I said, I don't believe the 2017 deadline was the real reason for his posts. It was the malicious attacks aimed to hurt his project. More than likely everyone internally already knew 2017 was not doable but what is the point extending while they were still unsure when they would fill their vacancies? Much better to wait till its resolved (which they seem to have done) and then explain (which they did).
  • slagathoreslagathore Member UncommonPosts: 29
    edited August 17
    How are the facts I've posted speculation? You can find any of this with a little bit of searching.

    I don't need to know what took place internally. Maybe they have finally found their people. All I need to know is Caspian's track record of massaging the truth, deflecting and out-right lying. That's enough for me to not believe a single word he has to say.

    Instead I'm going to let him hang himself by posting that massive feature list they need to accomplish in the next year and a half. They need to completely design, develop, have artwork for and polish a new feature every 6 to 9 days to stay on target. Let's see how that plays out. Want some popcorn for the show?

    EDIT: I'm going to see if I can get some game artists and engineers to look at that list and give me some feedback.
    Post edited by slagathore on
    Gdemamicraftseeker
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 3,035
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It doesn't look to me like Caspian's getting a pass on anything.  People have been shitting on him since the beginning of the CoE Kickstarter and the recent announcement of the delay seems to have increased the steady flow of excrement in his direction.  And really, there's no point to any of it.  Bashing him every step of the way isn't going to spontaneously make the game get finished faster.
    Doesn't excuse taking money based on unrealistic promises.  Any person or entity that asks for funding based upon a timeline has earned the right for backlash when they miss it, specifically by such a large timeframe.

    Not sure why folks want to act like these developers are our buddies asking for cash because they're a little short.  It's a business endeavor, and they sold it based upon a timeline that no one force upon them.  They deserve the heat when it blows up in their faces.  Quit giving developers a friggin' pass because you want what they promise; they're promising what they think you want to hear.
    GdemamicraftseekerYashaX

    image
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,992
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It doesn't look to me like Caspian's getting a pass on anything.  People have been shitting on him since the beginning of the CoE Kickstarter and the recent announcement of the delay seems to have increased the steady flow of excrement in his direction.  And really, there's no point to any of it.  Bashing him every step of the way isn't going to spontaneously make the game get finished faster.
    Doesn't excuse taking money based on unrealistic promises.  Any person or entity that asks for funding based upon a timeline has earned the right for backlash when they miss it, specifically by such a large timeframe.

    Not sure why folks want to act like these developers are our buddies asking for cash because they're a little short.  It's a business endeavor, and they sold it based upon a timeline that no one force upon them.  They deserve the heat when it blows up in their faces.  Quit giving developers a friggin' pass because you want what they promise; they're promising what they think you want to hear.
    I'm not giving Caspian a pass.  I'm just recognizing that the saber rattling does no good whatsoever.  If people want to continue to pile on because it makes them feel better, they're welcome to do so, but no good will come of it.
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    edited August 17
    The speculation is that he intended to deceive rather than the situation merely changed. Nit picking semantics like whether he used the plural or singular regarding 'investors'... who cares? Maybe they were in talks with someone else but it didn't pan out. Even if not, people up-sell their products. It is silly being offended by it. Just like most big publisher games are 'next-gen' even when they are not. None of this reflects on their competency.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 3,035
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It doesn't look to me like Caspian's getting a pass on anything.  People have been shitting on him since the beginning of the CoE Kickstarter and the recent announcement of the delay seems to have increased the steady flow of excrement in his direction.  And really, there's no point to any of it.  Bashing him every step of the way isn't going to spontaneously make the game get finished faster.
    Doesn't excuse taking money based on unrealistic promises.  Any person or entity that asks for funding based upon a timeline has earned the right for backlash when they miss it, specifically by such a large timeframe.

    Not sure why folks want to act like these developers are our buddies asking for cash because they're a little short.  It's a business endeavor, and they sold it based upon a timeline that no one force upon them.  They deserve the heat when it blows up in their faces.  Quit giving developers a friggin' pass because you want what they promise; they're promising what they think you want to hear.
    I'm not giving Caspian a pass.  I'm just recognizing that the saber rattling does no good whatsoever.  If people want to continue to pile on because it makes them feel better, they're welcome to do so, but no good will come of it.
    I disagree.  Consumer PR backlash is one of the most effective ways to pressure producers in an industry, short of boycotting products altogether.
    GdemamiYashaX

    image
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,992
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It doesn't look to me like Caspian's getting a pass on anything.  People have been shitting on him since the beginning of the CoE Kickstarter and the recent announcement of the delay seems to have increased the steady flow of excrement in his direction.  And really, there's no point to any of it.  Bashing him every step of the way isn't going to spontaneously make the game get finished faster.
    Doesn't excuse taking money based on unrealistic promises.  Any person or entity that asks for funding based upon a timeline has earned the right for backlash when they miss it, specifically by such a large timeframe.

    Not sure why folks want to act like these developers are our buddies asking for cash because they're a little short.  It's a business endeavor, and they sold it based upon a timeline that no one force upon them.  They deserve the heat when it blows up in their faces.  Quit giving developers a friggin' pass because you want what they promise; they're promising what they think you want to hear.
    I'm not giving Caspian a pass.  I'm just recognizing that the saber rattling does no good whatsoever.  If people want to continue to pile on because it makes them feel better, they're welcome to do so, but no good will come of it.
    I disagree.  Consumer PR backlash is one of the most effective ways to pressure producers in an industry, short of boycotting products altogether.
    I think Phil Fish might have a different angle on that, but you're not entirely wrong.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,899
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It doesn't look to me like Caspian's getting a pass on anything.  People have been shitting on him since the beginning of the CoE Kickstarter and the recent announcement of the delay seems to have increased the steady flow of excrement in his direction.  And really, there's no point to any of it.  Bashing him every step of the way isn't going to spontaneously make the game get finished faster.
    Doesn't excuse taking money based on unrealistic promises.  Any person or entity that asks for funding based upon a timeline has earned the right for backlash when they miss it, specifically by such a large timeframe.

    Not sure why folks want to act like these developers are our buddies asking for cash because they're a little short.  It's a business endeavor, and they sold it based upon a timeline that no one force upon them.  They deserve the heat when it blows up in their faces.  Quit giving developers a friggin' pass because you want what they promise; they're promising what they think you want to hear.
    I'm not giving Caspian a pass.  I'm just recognizing that the saber rattling does no good whatsoever.  If people want to continue to pile on because it makes them feel better, they're welcome to do so, but no good will come of it.
    I disagree.  Consumer PR backlash is one of the most effective ways to pressure producers in an industry, short of boycotting products altogether.

    I can't think of any time when this made a game better, to be honest. I can think of times when it made things worse, though. How's Mass Effect Andromeda working out for people? 
    StaalBurgher

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 3,035
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It doesn't look to me like Caspian's getting a pass on anything.  People have been shitting on him since the beginning of the CoE Kickstarter and the recent announcement of the delay seems to have increased the steady flow of excrement in his direction.  And really, there's no point to any of it.  Bashing him every step of the way isn't going to spontaneously make the game get finished faster.
    Doesn't excuse taking money based on unrealistic promises.  Any person or entity that asks for funding based upon a timeline has earned the right for backlash when they miss it, specifically by such a large timeframe.

    Not sure why folks want to act like these developers are our buddies asking for cash because they're a little short.  It's a business endeavor, and they sold it based upon a timeline that no one force upon them.  They deserve the heat when it blows up in their faces.  Quit giving developers a friggin' pass because you want what they promise; they're promising what they think you want to hear.
    I'm not giving Caspian a pass.  I'm just recognizing that the saber rattling does no good whatsoever.  If people want to continue to pile on because it makes them feel better, they're welcome to do so, but no good will come of it.
    I disagree.  Consumer PR backlash is one of the most effective ways to pressure producers in an industry, short of boycotting products altogether.

    I can't think of any time when this made a game better, to be honest. I can think of times when it made things worse, though. How's Mass Effect Andromeda working out for people? 
    And yet you ignore the edited ending to the previous entry in that franchise that was released directly in response to consumer PR backlash...  Hmmm..
    GdemamiYashaX

    image
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Tucson, AZMember UncommonPosts: 209
    I will say I want this game to get developed, I want it to succeed, it sounds fun. I wont fund any kickstarter though and it has nothing to do with this project. I do remember when he came to these forums, he did answer questions. He was a dick to people who were being a dick to him. The questions he had a smartass remark to were being smartasses themselves. I grew up in a way that if you acted a certain way you got that treatment back so it didn't offend me.

    Having said that he is representing the company and the project so there probably is a better way to handle the situation and respond to people like that. But at the same time the people who were overly provoking him cant come and claim him as a devil when they also have horns as well. There are ways to answer questions but there are also ways to ask questions. Neither side is really clean but because of the position he is in, his blotch is a little bigger.
    StaalBurgher
  • Dagon13Dagon13 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    I feel like I need to remind everyone that Kickstarter is about marketing, not development.  When they lay out project plans and timelines they aren't reporting to their management or their parent company.  They are reporting to their customer.  Everything that comes out of their mouth will be "push, push, push, sell, sell, sell". 

    If you think they ever actually intended to finish by that deadline, you've been deceived.  Don't take any single word they've said for granted.
    StaalBurghercraftseeker
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,505
    Shaigh said:

    If you viewed it objectively you know that mmorpg is extremely time consuming and takes all sorts of expertise to create. You know that being innovative increase the risk. You would understand that it take tens of millions of dollar to create an mmorpg. Given that he is completely new to building games you would know that the chance of them actually making the game is extremely small and that building it in 1.5 years is a pipe dream.
     
    Maybe you should share this with Caspian, apparently he did not "view it objectively" when he announced the original timeline and also did not keep this in mind when he blew up at people who posted that his timeline was unreasonable.
    Slapshot1188KyleranYashaX
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,008
    Talonsin said:
    Shaigh said:

    If you viewed it objectively you know that mmorpg is extremely time consuming and takes all sorts of expertise to create. You know that being innovative increase the risk. You would understand that it take tens of millions of dollar to create an mmorpg. Given that he is completely new to building games you would know that the chance of them actually making the game is extremely small and that building it in 1.5 years is a pipe dream.
     
    Maybe you should share this with Caspian, apparently he did not "view it objectively" when he announced the original timeline and also did not keep this in mind when he blew up at people who posted that his timeline was unreasonable.
    Lots of people kinda did back then...
    Slapshot1188Kyleran
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,958
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    Kyleran
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,008
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    They can always just... sell more castles or something?  Though I doubt collecting castles and kingships is going to be any where near as successful as Star Citizen's selling of ships.  Castles and Kingdoms just aren't as collectible and CoE keeps on emphasizing that a kingdom requires work to maintain and hold onto.  Whales may have near limitless money, but they don't have limitless TIME.

    I wouldn't be too surprised if CoE ran out of funding long before they've finished anything substantial (though they might do an emergency release like Shroud of the Avatar did).  They tried to have their cake by appealing to the whales while eating it too by simultaneously insisting their game isn't pay-to-win and that it can be lost.  While it's clearly netted them a few big ones, it's still not going to bring in the funding in the huge numbers they need, I imagine.
  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Millersburg, INMember RarePosts: 1,073
    But atleast you will have a mud to play...  maybe... 
    SedrynTyros
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    I disagree.  Consumer PR backlash is one of the most effective ways to pressure producers in an industry, short of boycotting products altogether.
    I agree with you on the power of consumer backlash but that is not what this is.
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    edited August 18
    I will say I want this game to get developed, I want it to succeed, it sounds fun. I wont fund any kickstarter though and it has nothing to do with this project. I do remember when he came to these forums, he did answer questions. He was a dick to people who were being a dick to him. The questions he had a smartass remark to were being smartasses themselves. I grew up in a way that if you acted a certain way you got that treatment back so it didn't offend me.

    Having said that he is representing the company and the project so there probably is a better way to handle the situation and respond to people like that. But at the same time the people who were overly provoking him cant come and claim him as a devil when they also have horns as well. There are ways to answer questions but there are also ways to ask questions. Neither side is really clean but because of the position he is in, his blotch is a little bigger.
    Very well put, this is exactly what I am getting at.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    edited August 18
    Not sure why this even matters anymore. This studio has seriously compromised its own ability to generate funding for this title. How long do you think the piss-in-the-bucket million dollars they have is going to last them? If you ask me, I say all this crap they are putting out now is just laying the foundation for the inevitable "Well, we gave it our best shot" announcement......and they all know it.
    That may be. Funding is always a potential problem with projects like these. Although their website indicates they have 3 million raised.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
    Slapshot1188
Sign In or Register to comment.