Alright, Caspian, let's dance

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Comments

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 6,245
    Don't you just love it when feature creep is so real that the core of the game isn't even getting attention / its base features added anymore.

    I really do not think these guys can pull it off. It shows by adding little things like this instead of focusing 100% on the features and core they already have. Instead they are just jumping all over the place adding little easy things to make it look like stuff is getting done.

    Word of advice is to focus on the core features you already have and get that in before adding even more fluff to that long list you already have. Otherwise this game feels like a Greed Monger 3.0 happening all over.
    This is pretty much the reason why traditionally MMOs have publishers to keep devs on track. Without someone to tell them "No, you have a deadline to focus on instead of getting sidetracked" they are all over the place. :P
    What?  I can't come up with a great idea while drinking my beers at the local bar with the buds, drop everything and work on that instead?  :-(

    "Change is the only constant."


  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    edited August 15
    I have a feeling he was merely responding in kind. Kind of hard to take that as a valid base for criticism given this forum's reputation.
    Except he also belittled folks in his own forums for daring to question his timeline.  Links and quotes are readily available. So let's not blame the forum for him acting like an ass.
    I doubt he responded like that to normal commentary. Nothing stops trolls posting on the game forum after all. I am pretty sure it was the standard forum warrior vitriol and other asinine comments that caused that sort of response. I agree he should not have responded but the fact that he did is no reflection on the developers intentions or capability. All it shows it is this is an owner-operation who is putting his heart-and-soul into it, not a development team working for a publishing house, and attacks that threatens its success, especially ones they see as baseless hit a nerve.

    After all it is entirely possible for people to post that they think the timeline, for example, is unrealistic but inevitably they go over the top and start insinuating and speculating that it is a scam, that the devs are failing and know it and are somehow trying to cheat everyone. All of which is just baseless slander from people who have nothing to lose. The developer has everything to lose. So if there was a rude response at some point, most well adjusted people could understand that.

    The amount of posts that some people spend to attack the game goes to show that they do it maliciously, not just as some 'honest' commentary.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
    GdemamiKyleranSlapshot1188Asm0deusYashaXvito11
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    Don't you just love it when feature creep is so real that the core of the game isn't even getting attention / its base features added anymore.

    I really do not think these guys can pull it off. It shows by adding little things like this instead of focusing 100% on the features and core they already have. Instead they are just jumping all over the place adding little easy things to make it look like stuff is getting done.

    Word of advice is to focus on the core features you already have and get that in before adding even more fluff to that long list you already have. Otherwise this game feels like a Greed Monger 3.0 happening all over.
    This is pretty much the reason why traditionally MMOs have publishers to keep devs on track. Without someone to tell them "No, you have a deadline to focus on instead of getting sidetracked" they are all over the place. :P
    This is really true. Sometimes publishers get a bad rap for just making the hard, but necessary choices.
    GdemamiKyleranAsm0deusMadFrenchie
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,551
    I have a feeling he was merely responding in kind. Kind of hard to take that as a valid base for criticism given this forum's reputation.
    Except he also belittled folks in his own forums for daring to question his timeline.  Links and quotes are readily available. So let's not blame the forum for him acting like an ass.
    I doubt he responded like that to normal commentary. 
    Maybe you should read a bit more about what Mr Caspien actually has said.  Here's an example of how he responded to legitimate questions about his ridiculously unrealistic timeline (which proved to be right as he just announced a year plus delay):

    --------

    Q:The stated timeline of end of 2017 for FULL RELASE is not a realistic one. Not even close.

    JW:Noted. I'm curious, however, what you're basing that on? Is it based on your development experience? Your insider knowledge into what business deals we've been working on? Have you peeked at our Gantt chart? Maybe you feel like using purchased assets from the Unreal Marketplace won't speed up development? Could it be you know that our choice of programming language for the server will slow down development? Anything? You got anything to substantiate your claim?

    --------------

    Yup.  Great way to answer a legitimate (and proven correct) concern.  You know the best part.  It's the second half of 2017 and they have not only missed the FULL RELEASE, but they haven't even started ALPHA yet!  Nor any of the silly extra games he has promised such as the MUD the Kingdoms game, the Prologue.  That's how fucked up his timeline was.  Think about that. They were supposed to be starting the Exposition of Launch in a few weeks and they haven't even started ALPHA testing.

    PS: To this date I haven't read an apology from him.  It certainly wasn't included in his State of Elyria post where he announced the delay.  Maybe he did it in a random post?  Since he is delaying the game by a YEAR (at least) and unable to fulfill his Kickstarter promises is he offering people a chance to refund their pledge?  If so, please link that for me.


    GdemamislagathoreKylerancraftseekerYashaXMendelvito11

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,903
    edited August 15
    I have a feeling he was merely responding in kind. Kind of hard to take that as a valid base for criticism given this forum's reputation.
    Except he also belittled folks in his own forums for daring to question his timeline.  Links and quotes are readily available. So let's not blame the forum for him acting like an ass.
    I doubt he responded like that to normal commentary. 
    Maybe you should read a bit more about what Mr Caspien actually has said.  Here's an example of how he responded to legitimate questions about his ridiculously unrealistic timeline (which proved to be right as he just announced a year plus delay):

    --------

    Q:The stated timeline of end of 2017 for FULL RELASE is not a realistic one. Not even close.

    JW:Noted. I'm curious, however, what you're basing that on? Is it based on your development experience? Your insider knowledge into what business deals we've been working on? Have you peeked at our Gantt chart? Maybe you feel like using purchased assets from the Unreal Marketplace won't speed up development? Could it be you know that our choice of programming language for the server will slow down development? Anything? You got anything to substantiate your claim?

    --------------

    Yup.  Great way to answer a legitimate (and proven correct) concern.  You know the best part.  It's the second half of 2017 and they have not only missed the FULL RELEASE, but they haven't even started ALPHA yet!  Nor any of the silly extra games he has promised such as the MUD the Kingdoms game, the Prologue.  That's how fucked up his timeline was.  Think about that. They were supposed to be starting the Exposition of Launch in a few weeks and they haven't even started ALPHA testing.

    PS: To this date I haven't read an apology from him.  It certainly wasn't included in his State of Elyria post where he announced the delay.  Maybe he did it in a random post?  Since he is delaying the game by a YEAR (at least) and unable to fulfill his Kickstarter promises is he offering people a chance to refund their pledge?  If so, please link that for me.



    Oh god..... You're right, he didn't hit that date and it's not even in alpha. You're right! Is that what you need to hear? Or are we still going to be hearing about how he promised a 2017 release 2 years from now a la Star Citizen's 2014 release? Honestly, it's just getting tired. Yes, they missed a release date, they explained why, and they issued a revised date. Carry on! Again, I love how you are soooooooo stalwart in your attempt to prove that this project is so horribly managed and yet you are a stalwart supporter of CU which is similarly off the rails. We GET IT!!! You don't like this guy because he's an asshole! You know what? Don't fucking back the project! Move the fuck on sunshine! That horse is dead! 
    Post edited by CrazKanuk on
    Big.Daddy.SamediYashaXmystichaze

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    Perhaps you should include all the slanderous posts accusing them of fraud, incompetency etc that probably led to that reply.
    GdemamiKyleranBig.Daddy.SamediYashaXTorval
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,551
    edited August 15
    CrazKanuk said:
    I have a feeling he was merely responding in kind. Kind of hard to take that as a valid base for criticism given this forum's reputation.
    Except he also belittled folks in his own forums for daring to question his timeline.  Links and quotes are readily available. So let's not blame the forum for him acting like an ass.
    I doubt he responded like that to normal commentary. 
    Maybe you should read a bit more about what Mr Caspien actually has said.  Here's an example of how he responded to legitimate questions about his ridiculously unrealistic timeline (which proved to be right as he just announced a year plus delay):

    --------

    Q:The stated timeline of end of 2017 for FULL RELASE is not a realistic one. Not even close.

    JW:Noted. I'm curious, however, what you're basing that on? Is it based on your development experience? Your insider knowledge into what business deals we've been working on? Have you peeked at our Gantt chart? Maybe you feel like using purchased assets from the Unreal Marketplace won't speed up development? Could it be you know that our choice of programming language for the server will slow down development? Anything? You got anything to substantiate your claim?

    --------------

    Yup.  Great way to answer a legitimate (and proven correct) concern.  You know the best part.  It's the second half of 2017 and they have not only missed the FULL RELEASE, but they haven't even started ALPHA yet!  Nor any of the silly extra games he has promised such as the MUD the Kingdoms game, the Prologue.  That's how fucked up his timeline was.  Think about that. They were supposed to be starting the Exposition of Launch in a few weeks and they haven't even started ALPHA testing.

    PS: To this date I haven't read an apology from him.  It certainly wasn't included in his State of Elyria post where he announced the delay.  Maybe he did it in a random post?  Since he is delaying the game by a YEAR (at least) and unable to fulfill his Kickstarter promises is he offering people a chance to refund their pledge?  If so, please link that for me.



    Oh god..... You're right, he didn't hit that date and it's not even in alpha. You're right! Is that what you need to hear? Or are we still going to be hearing about how he promised a 2017 release 2 years from now a la Star Citizen's 2014 release? Honestly, it's just getting tired. Yes, they missed a release date, they explained why, and they issued a revised date. Carry on! Again, I love how you are soooooooo stalwart in your attempt to prove that this project is so horribly managed and yet you are a stalwart supporter of CU which is similarly off the rails. We GET IT!!! You don't like this guy because he's an asshole! You know what? Don't fucking back the project! Move the fuck on sunshine! That horse is dead! 
    Nope...  stalwart defender?  Lol. Funny.  
    You can rag on CU all you want.  Unlike others I have no innate need to defend a game.  As I said, both CU and CoE showed incompetence or untruthfulness.  The difference is that CU acknowledged that they ere actually embarrassed by this and apologized and offered refunds.  But if you want to call them incompetent you'd be right.  Heck even MJ would likely agree!

    You should probably let your anger go.  Stick to discussing facts. As there is no actual game to talk about with COE... all we have to discuss are promises, all of which so far are undelivered.

    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    CrazKanukAsm0deusGdemamiKylerancraftseekerYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,903
    CrazKanuk said:
    I have a feeling he was merely responding in kind. Kind of hard to take that as a valid base for criticism given this forum's reputation.
    Except he also belittled folks in his own forums for daring to question his timeline.  Links and quotes are readily available. So let's not blame the forum for him acting like an ass.
    I doubt he responded like that to normal commentary. 
    Maybe you should read a bit more about what Mr Caspien actually has said.  Here's an example of how he responded to legitimate questions about his ridiculously unrealistic timeline (which proved to be right as he just announced a year plus delay):

    --------

    Q:The stated timeline of end of 2017 for FULL RELASE is not a realistic one. Not even close.

    JW:Noted. I'm curious, however, what you're basing that on? Is it based on your development experience? Your insider knowledge into what business deals we've been working on? Have you peeked at our Gantt chart? Maybe you feel like using purchased assets from the Unreal Marketplace won't speed up development? Could it be you know that our choice of programming language for the server will slow down development? Anything? You got anything to substantiate your claim?

    --------------

    Yup.  Great way to answer a legitimate (and proven correct) concern.  You know the best part.  It's the second half of 2017 and they have not only missed the FULL RELEASE, but they haven't even started ALPHA yet!  Nor any of the silly extra games he has promised such as the MUD the Kingdoms game, the Prologue.  That's how fucked up his timeline was.  Think about that. They were supposed to be starting the Exposition of Launch in a few weeks and they haven't even started ALPHA testing.

    PS: To this date I haven't read an apology from him.  It certainly wasn't included in his State of Elyria post where he announced the delay.  Maybe he did it in a random post?  Since he is delaying the game by a YEAR (at least) and unable to fulfill his Kickstarter promises is he offering people a chance to refund their pledge?  If so, please link that for me.



    Oh god..... You're right, he didn't hit that date and it's not even in alpha. You're right! Is that what you need to hear? Or are we still going to be hearing about how he promised a 2017 release 2 years from now a la Star Citizen's 2014 release? Honestly, it's just getting tired. Yes, they missed a release date, they explained why, and they issued a revised date. Carry on! Again, I love how you are soooooooo stalwart in your attempt to prove that this project is so horribly managed and yet you are a stalwart supporter of CU which is similarly off the rails. We GET IT!!! You don't like this guy because he's an asshole! You know what? Don't fucking back the project! Move the fuck on sunshine! That horse is dead! 
    Nope...  stalwart defender?  Lol. Funny.  
    You can rag on CU all you want.  Unlike others I have no innate need to defend a game.  As I said, both CU and CoE showed incompetence or untruthfulness.  The difference is that CU acknowledged that they ere actually embarrassed by this and apologized and offered refunds.  But if you want to call them incompetent you'd be right.  Heck even MJ would likely agree!

    You should probably let your anger go.  Stick to discussing facts. As there is no actual game to talk about with COE... all we have to discuss are promises, all of which so far are undelivered.

    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.


    Cool, we'll go with that. Something tells me that your agenda is highly dependent on the context, though, as evidenced on the forums. That's fine though, keep discussing "facts". 
    YashaXTorval

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    Slapshot1188Asm0deusGdemamiKyleranYashaXmystichaze
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorMember RarePosts: 2,091
    edited August 15
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like a snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    Post edited by Asm0deus on
    Slapshot1188IselinGdemamislagathorecraftseekerYashaXMendelvito11

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,551
    Asm0deus said:
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of a trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    DING DING DING.  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    Asm0deus said:

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like a snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.
    Oh I have no doubt that his response should not have been made but let me ask you this; do you deny there was maliciousness from some posters? That is what would have prompted his response which is now being construed as a general attack on everyone, which makes no logical sense whatsoever.
    IselinGdemamiSlapshot1188Asm0deuspantaroYashaX
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,903
    Asm0deus said:
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of a trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    DING DING DING.  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


    Ok, so just to recap. Allllllllll the arguing you've done previously with regards to incompetence and dishonestly is out the window? So what it all boils down to is how he responds to trolls or other community criticism. Ok, cool. That's what I figured from the beginning, I was just trying to get past the facade and figure out what your real problem was here. 

    Yup, I agree, there are probably more likable people you can cheer for in the genre.

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,551
    CrazKanuk said:
    Asm0deus said:
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of a trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    DING DING DING.  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


    Ok, so just to recap. Allllllllll the arguing you've done previously with regards to incompetence and dishonestly is out the window? So what it all boils down to is how he responds to trolls or other community criticism. Ok, cool. That's what I figured from the beginning, I was just trying to get past the facade and figure out what your real problem was here. 

    Yup, I agree, there are probably more likable people you can cheer for in the genre.
    Nope.
    CrazKanukGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,903
    CrazKanuk said:
    Asm0deus said:
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of a trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    DING DING DING.  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


    Ok, so just to recap. Allllllllll the arguing you've done previously with regards to incompetence and dishonestly is out the window? So what it all boils down to is how he responds to trolls or other community criticism. Ok, cool. That's what I figured from the beginning, I was just trying to get past the facade and figure out what your real problem was here. 

    Yup, I agree, there are probably more likable people you can cheer for in the genre.
    Nope.

    Hey, I'm not the one that said Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. I don't know what that means in Florida, but in Canada, that means that they got it right. Furthermore, he mentioned nothing about the game schedule, it was all about attitude and being sensitive to tough questions. So nope? Ahhhh, Nope! 
    Slapshot1188YashaX

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,551
    CrazKanuk said:
    Asm0deus said:
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of a trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    DING DING DING.  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


    Ok, so just to recap. Allllllllll the arguing you've done previously with regards to incompetence and dishonestly is out the window? So what it all boils down to is how he responds to trolls or other community criticism. Ok, cool. That's what I figured from the beginning, I was just trying to get past the facade and figure out what your real problem was here. 

    Yup, I agree, there are probably more likable people you can cheer for in the genre.
    Nope.

    Hey, I'm not the one that said Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. I don't know what that means in Florida, but in Canada, that means that they got it right. Furthermore, he mentioned nothing about the game schedule, it was all about attitude and being sensitive to tough questions. So nope? Ahhhh, Nope! 
     ;) 
    YashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,884
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Asm0deus said:
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of a trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    DING DING DING.  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


    Ok, so just to recap. Allllllllll the arguing you've done previously with regards to incompetence and dishonestly is out the window? So what it all boils down to is how he responds to trolls or other community criticism. Ok, cool. That's what I figured from the beginning, I was just trying to get past the facade and figure out what your real problem was here. 

    Yup, I agree, there are probably more likable people you can cheer for in the genre.
    Nope.

    Hey, I'm not the one that said Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. I don't know what that means in Florida, but in Canada, that means that they got it right. Furthermore, he mentioned nothing about the game schedule, it was all about attitude and being sensitive to tough questions. So nope? Ahhhh, Nope! 
    Well, the incompetency, dishonesty and delayed schedule are all pretty much givens now, which as you and others have rightly pointed out most other indie devs have shown one or more of.

    Some have even argued nativity and taking the wildly over optomistic view on timelines and funding is a necessary evil else these games would never get funded hence never have a chance of being made.

    Probably an accurate view, had I knew MJ likely would miss the KSer estimate, perhaps by even a year or two.

    But had he said it would likely be 5 to 6 years until final release I probably would have held off.

    While he would still give me a refund, I let him keep the money largely because he's always been very transparent on the challenges they face and I believe all of his promises have been made in good faith.

    His apologetic attitude goes a long way as well, something clearly lacking in Caspians approach.

    So yeah, right now,  attitude and apology is about all these overdue game devs have, everything is largely just a matter of fact.


    Slapshot1188Asm0deusCrazKanukGdemamiYashaX

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,903
    Kyleran said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Asm0deus said:
    The person I responded to stated that he doubted Caspien ever made such statements so I provided them.  Don't ask questions to which you don't want answers.

    No, I said he most likely made the post in response to a small malicious minority, whose comments you conveniently choose to ignore. Clearly you think context is overrated.
    When this game first came to light, right here on these very forums, some of us showed interest in the game but had some question and a few reservations about it. 

    Instead of talking to us normally Caspian showed himself to be very sensitive about such questions and frankly came across like snarky, angry kid and totally put some of us off even wanting to back this game even though we thought it had some very interesting ideas.

    In the end he is showing himself to be his own worse enemy, and trying to make it appear he is a poor victim of a trolls and haters is a sad sad defense for his behavior both here and elsewhere.
    DING DING DING.  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!


    Ok, so just to recap. Allllllllll the arguing you've done previously with regards to incompetence and dishonestly is out the window? So what it all boils down to is how he responds to trolls or other community criticism. Ok, cool. That's what I figured from the beginning, I was just trying to get past the facade and figure out what your real problem was here. 

    Yup, I agree, there are probably more likable people you can cheer for in the genre.
    Nope.

    Hey, I'm not the one that said Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. I don't know what that means in Florida, but in Canada, that means that they got it right. Furthermore, he mentioned nothing about the game schedule, it was all about attitude and being sensitive to tough questions. So nope? Ahhhh, Nope! 
    Well, the incompetency, dishonesty and delayed schedule are all pretty much givens now, which as you and others have rightly pointed out most other indie devs have shown one or more of.

    Some have even argued nativity and taking the wildly over optomistic view on timelines and funding is a necessary evil else these games would never get funded hence never have a chance of being made.

    Probably an accurate view, had I knew MJ likely would miss the KSer estimate, perhaps by even a year or two.

    But had he said it would likely be 5 to 6 years until final release I probably would have held off.

    While he would still give me a refund, I let him keep the money largely because he's always been very transparent on the challenges they face and I believe all of his promises have been made in good faith.

    His apologetic attitude goes a long way as well, something clearly lacking in Caspians approach.

    So yeah, right now,  attitude and apology is about all these overdue game devs have, everything is largely just a matter of fact.



    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 
    StaalBurgher

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,551
    Keep speaking to what you think would have happened if blah blah blah. The rest of us will keep talking about what actually did happen.
    GdemamiYashaXvito11

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • slagathoreslagathore Member UncommonPosts: 29
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    Asm0deusKyleranSpottyGekkoBig.Daddy.SamedicraftseekerMadFrenchieYashaX
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 2,003
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.

    It doesn't look to me like Caspian's getting a pass on anything.  People have been shitting on him since the beginning of the CoE Kickstarter and the recent announcement of the delay seems to have increased the steady flow of excrement in his direction.  And really, there's no point to any of it.  Bashing him every step of the way isn't going to spontaneously make the game get finished faster.
    KyleranStaalBurghercraftseekerYashaX
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 13,191
    I am usually pretty quick but it took me a few threads to figure this guy out.

    It bothered me as much that this site was in on it,because this site most certainly talks to these potential customers and knows exactly what a developer is up to.

    The whole gimmick was nothing more than to get free crowd funding money.I don't like to even cal lit crowd funding,to me that would represent something more than just an idea.The way business works is if i give you money ,i want something in return and that odes NOT mean promises nor does it mean i get to hang out in some server that really has NO GAME.

    Yeah the obvious is "don't buy into the bullshit",well of course and i am not sucked into these ever but as long  as others support this nonsense all the devs are going to do the same thing and we will never have great games,just promises and games that are never really finished.

    I will tell you that i see all the little things that add up to deception.I was skeptical the very first thread this site posted on this game and the reason was one in particular user" a brand new user"appeared to me at least to be a part of the team,pretending to be an interested onlooker.Well guess what,that user has never been seen since,i believe it was that female sidekick he uses in promotions/shows.Point being the DECEPTION was real from day 1.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,903
    CrazKanuk said:

    Yeah, I agree with you on most items. However, I think that incompetency and dishonesty are very difficult to prove in any case, even this one. As MJ said in his own thread, just yesterday, he did have a "holy fuck" moment. He also acknowledges that these things DO happen. It's also why he says he doesn't comment on other developers. So this has been my main issue with this whole discussion. I can appreciate that some people have relatively simple jobs that are highly predictable. I know when I put fries in that it's going to take exactly 3 minutes. I know with a very small window of error how long it's going to take me to drive around and put your street's garbage in the back of my truck. However, did you ever notice how on "Big Day" your trash collectors will generally say pickup will be sometime within this week-long period? That's because unknowns have been introduced. 

    It has very little to do with incompetence and dishonesty and much more to do with the complexity of the task at hand. Again, this is a daunting task for some to wrap their head around, so I'm not going to step outside that very basic analogy of trash pickup, but when we're dealing with complexity, there will ultimately be delays, and that is only compounded by the length of time we're attempting to estimate (because we generally suck at estimating longer times). 

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 

    Let me try to share my perspective.

    I'm a project manager for a software company. I get paid well to manage complex projects and I get paid even better when we hit our targets, targets that I set. I don't hear anything when we slip by up to about 20%, but I can kiss all my performance bonuses goodbye. Here, upper management is smart enough to pad every project by between 15-20% of the estimates we PMs provide after we do serious due diligence on the project. That means pulling as much detail for every possible task from everyone on the team and gauging confidence of those details. This takes a HUGE upfront effort but pays off by orders of magnitude by locking in scope and subsequently budget.

    When slip starts to hit 30% we would take some heat and asked to justify the reasons for the slip and we might be told to adjust the scope to fit the existing budget, which means cuts to the project.

    If slip hit the 100%+ mark, I would be fired and whoever let me hang around to let it get to that point would be thrown out beside me. Hell, I would fire myself for letting that happen.

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    - he collected money from people on the promise of a well developed schedule and stating that he has multiple investors waiting in the wings but keeps cash grabbing

    - taking three weeks to launch a website store he stated was already done, then blaming the delay on some foreign entity (convenient)

    - blaming the complexity of IOSpatial for integration issues after previously stating he has reviewed it in detail (flying to the UK to review it I believe) and was confident integration was going to be a piece of cake

    - and now he announces a feature he wants to show off at PAX (shouldn't he be saving his money for that project that just doubled?) that wasn't even listed in his list of features


    His belittlement of people aside, he has shown through action, not assumption, that he cannot be trusted to handle a project of this size and complexity.


    I would suggest few are, let alone people without any sort of training in project management. They have certifications for a reason I assume. i think there is probably some good evidence to support that idea. Fuck! Who woulda known, right? Here I just thought you could slide anyone into a PM position! 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    edited August 16
    CrazKanuk said:

    I'd LOVE to believe that if Caspian had just been apologetic or nice from the beginning that this would have all went away, but there are other projects which would offer pretty good evidence to the contrary. The fact that he's been an asshole has provided a great deal of ammunition, but it's most likely that ammunition would have been fabricated somehow regardless. We've seen it before and, unfortunately, we will likely see it again. It often has little to do with the project itself, and less to do with logic, but I suppose that's the state we're in today. Everyone just doing their part to make America great again :) 
    This is exactly my point. No one is disputing that Caspian's response was unprofessional but it has absolutely nothing to do with his competency or honesty, and it certainly would have made no difference to the maliciousness to which he was most likely responding. All it reflects really is that he is concerned for his project and the trolls got to him.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher LondonMember UncommonPosts: 122
    edited August 16

    So why does Caspian get a pass after:

    For one, he doesn't seem to be getting a pass and there are mitigating factors. Firstly he is not being paid a salary and secondly the project is funded by donations. The very nature of this project is more speculative than the type of project you might be working on. There is a reason this game is being made by an Indie dev and funded by Kickstarter, the economic risk is too large to have passed muster in a regular business. People that support Kickstarter should realise that it will be less of a polished, professional experience and not get in a huff if things get a bit hairy.

    So by all means people can raise concerns but the level of malicious hyperbole is ridiculous given the nature of the project.
    Post edited by StaalBurgher on
    SedrynTyroscraftseeker
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