Shadow Of War: microtransactions!

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Comments

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,911
    edited August 14
    Torval said:
    Is this more of you pissing in the wind or do you have a point relevant to the thread? Or are you just trolling and flamebaiting? Is there a point to your posts here?
    'Third grade mentality', seriously...?
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,036
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    GdemamiYashaXalkarionlogPhry

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 925
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    SovrathGdemami
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • PhryPhry OxfordshireMember EpicPosts: 8,993
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Digital distribution is nowhere near the production costs for physical media, which has to be outsourced most likely to several different companies, there is the printing requirements for the rules/game information etc. that you get in all Boxed DVD games, there is the cost of actually making the DVD itself, which is also time consuming, especially when you want a few million made, the box has to be made complete with artwork, and thats without any extras to get you to buy the physical box in the first place, such as maps etc. This all costs more, far more than just a paltry $2.00, and then there are assembly costs, shipping costs. There are far more middlemen in the supply chain when it comes to physical media, than there are with digital media, and you still have to shell out $$ for marketing.
    GdemamiGobstopper3D
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,036
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that. Online retailers like Steam taking there cut is no different than a Brick and Mortar taking their cut, except that I would believe that the cost per unit sold by the Brick and Mortar would be much higher than Steam or similar.

    $2 for a DVD and a cover, yeah sure sounds about right. Back in the nineties we had nice 50-100 printed manuals and maps and other goodies in our games. Printing is expensive, always has been.

    Anyways, Everything I can find shows very strong growth and increasing revenues. I see no evidence of an industry having a hard time making a profit.

    https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/the-global-games-market-will-reach-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246892/value-of-the-video-game-market-in-the-us/

    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    Gdemami

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,416
    laserit said:
    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    It's weird because cash shops do come in when the game is online, like MMO's and sustains long-term maintenance and development.

    A game like this should go with DLC instead, not this. It's weird.
    YashaXExcession
  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 925
    Phry said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Digital distribution is nowhere near the production costs for physical media, which has to be outsourced most likely to several different companies, there is the printing requirements for the rules/game information etc. that you get in all Boxed DVD games, there is the cost of actually making the DVD itself, which is also time consuming, especially when you want a few million made, the box has to be made complete with artwork, and thats without any extras to get you to buy the physical box in the first place, such as maps etc. This all costs more, far more than just a paltry $2.00, and then there are assembly costs, shipping costs. There are far more middlemen in the supply chain when it comes to physical media, than there are with digital media, and you still have to shell out $$ for marketing.
    It would be interesting to see real numbers on all of that. Not because I don't believe you but because you have peaked my interest. I am going to read up on all of this a bit, curiousity never hurt anyone.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    YashaX
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,804
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that. Online retailers like Steam taking there cut is no different than a Brick and Mortar taking their cut, except that I would believe that the cost per unit sold by the Brick and Mortar would be much higher than Steam or similar.

    $2 for a DVD and a cover, yeah sure sounds about right. Back in the nineties we had nice 50-100 printed manuals and maps and other goodies in our games. Printing is expensive, always has been.

    Anyways, Everything I can find shows very strong growth and increasing revenues. I see no evidence of an industry having a hard time making a profit.

    https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/the-global-games-market-will-reach-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246892/value-of-the-video-game-market-in-the-us/

    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    https://www.mixonic.com/dvd/

    That was the most expensive I could make that package. The default for just dvd 6 pack, printed material, and discs was around $5500.

    I can burn through that on AWS in no time. I'm not saying you don't have valid points about manufacturing costs, but the digital world isn't cheap. Visit AWS and configure a high end VM, DB, or some other type of server and look at the costs when you start adding enterprise features. That's why Bezos is the richest guy in the world, or was a week ago.
    laseritYashaX
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 23,082
    laserit said:

    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that.
    Whoa, apples to oranges.

    You have no idea what the breakdown is or how they come up with that.

    Every show costs them "x amount of dollars" to have on their network. They probably require a certain amount of viewers to make each show viable.

    My guess (which is only a guess) is that their system allows a lot of people on their network for a very low admission cost with the hope that each show attracts a certain amount of people who then stay subscribed to their network.

    It's very possible that there is a critical mass for them where they need x amount of subscribers to make their business viable so they charge a low amount but with the idea that more people will think it's "nothing" and just stay subscribed.

    This is not to say that shadow of war needs this extra revenue stream to stay in business. However, I do believe they are taking advantage of this "extra revenue stream" because "investors".

    They are trying to capitalize on all aspects of their product as much as possible so that they make as much money as possible.







  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,036
    Torval said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that. Online retailers like Steam taking there cut is no different than a Brick and Mortar taking their cut, except that I would believe that the cost per unit sold by the Brick and Mortar would be much higher than Steam or similar.

    $2 for a DVD and a cover, yeah sure sounds about right. Back in the nineties we had nice 50-100 printed manuals and maps and other goodies in our games. Printing is expensive, always has been.

    Anyways, Everything I can find shows very strong growth and increasing revenues. I see no evidence of an industry having a hard time making a profit.

    https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/the-global-games-market-will-reach-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246892/value-of-the-video-game-market-in-the-us/

    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    https://www.mixonic.com/dvd/

    That was the most expensive I could make that package. The default for just dvd 6 pack, printed material, and discs was around $5500.

    I can burn through that on AWS in no time. I'm not saying you don't have valid points about manufacturing costs, but the digital world isn't cheap. Visit AWS and configure a high end VM, DB, or some other type of server and look at the costs when you start adding enterprise features. That's why Bezos is the richest guy in the world, or was a week ago.
    Look at your shipping cost.

    Your product is now at your door, now you have to get it to your customers, be it store or direct.

    How can Netflix digitally distribute so cheaply?

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140218/11532626269/house-cards-4k-will-eat-broadband-caps-like-popcorn-shrimp.shtml

    GdemamiYashaX

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 925
    edited August 14
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that. Online retailers like Steam taking there cut is no different than a Brick and Mortar taking their cut, except that I would believe that the cost per unit sold by the Brick and Mortar would be much higher than Steam or similar.

    $2 for a DVD and a cover, yeah sure sounds about right. Back in the nineties we had nice 50-100 printed manuals and maps and other goodies in our games. Printing is expensive, always has been.

    Anyways, Everything I can find shows very strong growth and increasing revenues. I see no evidence of an industry having a hard time making a profit.

    https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/the-global-games-market-will-reach-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246892/value-of-the-video-game-market-in-the-us/

    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    According to an article in the New York Times written by Alex Pham total costs of physical producing, packaging and shipping was roughly 4 dollars a product in 2010, that is ALL the stuff you mentioned ad a huge factor. Lets go inflation crazy and say that would translate to 6 bucks in todays market. So lets detract that from the inflation corrected 110 bucks per game, still a 104 left.

    I'll go a bit further. According to the same article a 60 dollar game is split up like this: 

    27 dollars for the publisher
    15 to the retailer
    7 on returns (games that don't sell in the store)
    7 for the platform
    4 bucks on everything you mentioned above

    Say a digital outlet doesn't ask 15 bucks but only 5, thats a 94 dollar game. There are also no returns so thats a 87 dollar game right there, factoring in all the costs back then versus those made today.

    Now, mind you, we have only talked about inflation correction and that leaves an 87 dollar game price. But wait you say, revenue has increased 5 times since then, lots more profit! True, but average costs to make a game have increased 15 times. Now lets keep it simple and divide that 15 times the cost with 5 times the revenue, that is still a factor 3. Looking above at the 27 dollar for the retailer means we have to triple that to get the same result as back in the day. So that 87 dollar game gets another 54 added because the publishers want to be just as greedy as before. And voila, to counter inflation and increased costs your equivalent would be a 141 dollar game.

    But I'll be nice and factor in some exaggeration from my side, say 31 dollars. And STILL you are left with a 110 dollar game.

    Also, Netflix? Apples and oranges.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir


    Post edited by lahnmir on
    GdemamiYashaX
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,036
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that. Online retailers like Steam taking there cut is no different than a Brick and Mortar taking their cut, except that I would believe that the cost per unit sold by the Brick and Mortar would be much higher than Steam or similar.

    $2 for a DVD and a cover, yeah sure sounds about right. Back in the nineties we had nice 50-100 printed manuals and maps and other goodies in our games. Printing is expensive, always has been.

    Anyways, Everything I can find shows very strong growth and increasing revenues. I see no evidence of an industry having a hard time making a profit.

    https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/the-global-games-market-will-reach-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246892/value-of-the-video-game-market-in-the-us/

    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    According to an article in the New York Times written by Alex Pham total costs of physical producing, packaging and shipping was roughly 4 dollars a product in 2010, that is ALL the stuff you mentioned ad a huge factor. Lets go inflation crazy and say that would translate to 6 bucks in todays market. So lets detract that from the inflation corrected 110 bucks per game, still a 104 left.

    I'll go a bit further. According to the same article a 60 dollar game is split up like this: 

    27 dollars for the publisher
    15 to the retailer
    7 on returns (games that don't sell in the store)
    7 for the platform
    4 bucks on everything you mentioned above

    Say a digital outlet doesn't ask 15 bucks but only 5, thats a 94 dollar game. There are also no returns so thats a 87 dollar game right there, factoring in all the costs back then versus those made today.

    Now, mind you, we have only talked about inflation correction and that leaves an 87 dollar game price. But wait you say, revenue has increased 5 times since then, lots more profit! True, but average costs to make a game have increased 15 times. Now lets keep it simple and divide that 15 times the cost with 5 times the revenue, that is still a factor 3. Looking above at the 27 dollar for the retailer means we have to triple that to get the same result as back in the day. So that 87 dollar game gets another 54 added because the publishers want to be just as greedy as before. And voila, to counter inflation and increased costs your equivalent would be a 141 dollar game.

    But I'll be nice and factor in some exaggeration from my side, say 31 dollars. And STILL you are left with a 110 dollar game.

    Also, Netflix? Apples and oranges.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir


    A Netflix movie is bytes delivered through the internet to your home. A game is bytes delivered through the internet to your home.

    How is it Apples and Oranges? They are both the same thing "digital data"  delivered through the net.

    If I buy a digital movie or game for $2-$100 through Apple, Google, Steam, GoG or whoever. I can stream or download the movie or game as many times as I want so I doubt their cost's for digital delivery are even worth mentioning or I would imagine I'd have my number of downloads restricted.

    I can buy a physical movie today for cheaper than I could in the 1970's 1980's 1990's and the 2000's

    Movies cost a hell of a lot more to make today than they did back then. Plenty of digital artists involved. No RNG loot boxes required.

    Overall the Games Industry as well as the Movie Industry are as profitable as they have ever been. And in the digital age they have plenty in common.
    GdemamiTheScavenger

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 925
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that. Online retailers like Steam taking there cut is no different than a Brick and Mortar taking their cut, except that I would believe that the cost per unit sold by the Brick and Mortar would be much higher than Steam or similar.

    $2 for a DVD and a cover, yeah sure sounds about right. Back in the nineties we had nice 50-100 printed manuals and maps and other goodies in our games. Printing is expensive, always has been.

    Anyways, Everything I can find shows very strong growth and increasing revenues. I see no evidence of an industry having a hard time making a profit.

    https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/the-global-games-market-will-reach-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246892/value-of-the-video-game-market-in-the-us/

    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    According to an article in the New York Times written by Alex Pham total costs of physical producing, packaging and shipping was roughly 4 dollars a product in 2010, that is ALL the stuff you mentioned ad a huge factor. Lets go inflation crazy and say that would translate to 6 bucks in todays market. So lets detract that from the inflation corrected 110 bucks per game, still a 104 left.

    I'll go a bit further. According to the same article a 60 dollar game is split up like this: 

    27 dollars for the publisher
    15 to the retailer
    7 on returns (games that don't sell in the store)
    7 for the platform
    4 bucks on everything you mentioned above

    Say a digital outlet doesn't ask 15 bucks but only 5, thats a 94 dollar game. There are also no returns so thats a 87 dollar game right there, factoring in all the costs back then versus those made today.

    Now, mind you, we have only talked about inflation correction and that leaves an 87 dollar game price. But wait you say, revenue has increased 5 times since then, lots more profit! True, but average costs to make a game have increased 15 times. Now lets keep it simple and divide that 15 times the cost with 5 times the revenue, that is still a factor 3. Looking above at the 27 dollar for the retailer means we have to triple that to get the same result as back in the day. So that 87 dollar game gets another 54 added because the publishers want to be just as greedy as before. And voila, to counter inflation and increased costs your equivalent would be a 141 dollar game.

    But I'll be nice and factor in some exaggeration from my side, say 31 dollars. And STILL you are left with a 110 dollar game.

    Also, Netflix? Apples and oranges.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir


    A Netflix movie is bytes delivered through the internet to your home. A game is bytes delivered through the internet to your home.

    How is it Apples and Oranges? They are both the same thing "digital data"  delivered through the net.

    If I buy a digital movie or game for $2-$100 through Apple, Google, Steam, GoG or whoever. I can stream or download the movie or game as many times as I want so I doubt their cost's for digital delivery are even worth mentioning or I would imagine I'd have my number of downloads restricted.

    I can buy a physical movie today for cheaper than I could in the 1970's 1980's 1990's and the 2000's

    Movies cost a hell of a lot more to make today than they did back then. Plenty of digital artists involved. No RNG loot boxes required.

    Overall the Games Industry as well as the Movie Industry are as profitable as they have ever been. And in the digital age they have plenty in common.
    Do I now have to present a complete breakdown of movie costs like I did with games and their inflation correction too to show you you might be wrong?

    But fine, I'll play along, digital distribution on games and movies might indeed be the same, I can't deny that. So, not 5 dollars for the retailer but 0,  it is STILL 105 bucks a game and I already gave you some slack with me taking off 31 dollars in the first place just to make a point, lets use that money to take away 7 dollars on returns and 7 dollars for the platform too. 

    It is not about being profitable or not, it is about a breakdown of the costs and why companies are looking at different and additional ways of generating revenue. It is not pure greed and yelling at cash shops or in game purchases, that is just a too simplified way to look at it.


    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • immoralthangimmoralthang Member UncommonPosts: 27
    I can't say I'm surprised. Micro-transactions are a AAA gaming standard these days. I sure as hell won't be paying full price for this game.
  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABMember RarePosts: 1,979
    edited August 14
    A good take on this from Jim Fucking Sterling Son.  Best and most accurate line about micro transactions "Invent a problem, sell a solution".



    Post edited by Ginaz on
    YashaX

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,036
    edited August 14
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    I hate micro transactions like this, but really, game prices have been the same since at least 1995. Taking inflation into account current day 60 dollar games should cost about 110 right now, which they don't. So while every thing has gotten more expensive, gaming got relatively cheaper over the years, not the costs to make them, just the games.

    So where does the money come from? You can't jack up the prices all of a sudden, so you ad other forms of revenue and give players the choice. Just playing devils advocate here but it ain't that weird, we have been spoiled rotten with gaming prices tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Where does the money come from?

    • No packaging (which for many products, costs more than the actual product)
    • No physical media.
    • No physical documentation
    • No physical distrubution

    Huge cost factors taken out of the equation. 
    Are they really huge factors? Digital distribution costs money too and I believe I read somewhere that all the physic stuff is max 2 dollars per product. Besides, all the money saved this way is easily spend on advertisement which has gotten much more prominent and expensive the last few years.

    I have a hard time believing this tbh.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Since Netflix can digitally deliver me and 3 other concurrent users an unlimited amount of shows including 4k for $12 a month, I would believe the cost of digital distribution to be a couple pennies if that. Online retailers like Steam taking there cut is no different than a Brick and Mortar taking their cut, except that I would believe that the cost per unit sold by the Brick and Mortar would be much higher than Steam or similar.

    $2 for a DVD and a cover, yeah sure sounds about right. Back in the nineties we had nice 50-100 printed manuals and maps and other goodies in our games. Printing is expensive, always has been.

    Anyways, Everything I can find shows very strong growth and increasing revenues. I see no evidence of an industry having a hard time making a profit.

    https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/the-global-games-market-will-reach-108-9-billion-in-2017-with-mobile-taking-42/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246892/value-of-the-video-game-market-in-the-us/

    F2P games profit very handsomely with out even charging for the application.

    This cash shop crap is just a cheap way to make easy money.
    According to an article in the New York Times written by Alex Pham total costs of physical producing, packaging and shipping was roughly 4 dollars a product in 2010, that is ALL the stuff you mentioned ad a huge factor. Lets go inflation crazy and say that would translate to 6 bucks in todays market. So lets detract that from the inflation corrected 110 bucks per game, still a 104 left.

    I'll go a bit further. According to the same article a 60 dollar game is split up like this: 

    27 dollars for the publisher
    15 to the retailer
    7 on returns (games that don't sell in the store)
    7 for the platform
    4 bucks on everything you mentioned above

    Say a digital outlet doesn't ask 15 bucks but only 5, thats a 94 dollar game. There are also no returns so thats a 87 dollar game right there, factoring in all the costs back then versus those made today.

    Now, mind you, we have only talked about inflation correction and that leaves an 87 dollar game price. But wait you say, revenue has increased 5 times since then, lots more profit! True, but average costs to make a game have increased 15 times. Now lets keep it simple and divide that 15 times the cost with 5 times the revenue, that is still a factor 3. Looking above at the 27 dollar for the retailer means we have to triple that to get the same result as back in the day. So that 87 dollar game gets another 54 added because the publishers want to be just as greedy as before. And voila, to counter inflation and increased costs your equivalent would be a 141 dollar game.

    But I'll be nice and factor in some exaggeration from my side, say 31 dollars. And STILL you are left with a 110 dollar game.

    Also, Netflix? Apples and oranges.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir


    A Netflix movie is bytes delivered through the internet to your home. A game is bytes delivered through the internet to your home.

    How is it Apples and Oranges? They are both the same thing "digital data"  delivered through the net.

    If I buy a digital movie or game for $2-$100 through Apple, Google, Steam, GoG or whoever. I can stream or download the movie or game as many times as I want so I doubt their cost's for digital delivery are even worth mentioning or I would imagine I'd have my number of downloads restricted.

    I can buy a physical movie today for cheaper than I could in the 1970's 1980's 1990's and the 2000's

    Movies cost a hell of a lot more to make today than they did back then. Plenty of digital artists involved. No RNG loot boxes required.

    Overall the Games Industry as well as the Movie Industry are as profitable as they have ever been. And in the digital age they have plenty in common.
    Do I now have to present a complete breakdown of movie costs like I did with games and their inflation correction too to show you you might be wrong?

    But fine, I'll play along, digital distribution on games and movies might indeed be the same, I can't deny that. So, not 5 dollars for the retailer but 0,  it is STILL 105 bucks a game and I already gave you some slack with me taking off 31 dollars in the first place just to make a point, lets use that money to take away 7 dollars on returns and 7 dollars for the platform too. 

    It is not about being profitable or not, it is about a breakdown of the costs and why companies are looking at different and additional ways of generating revenue. It is not pure greed and yelling at cash shops or in game purchases, that is just a too simplified way to look at it.


    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Try manufacturing on for size if you want to learn about inflationary pressures.

    Lets see the margins and the returns. Then we can talk about whether its greed or not.

    Post edited by laserit on
    GdemamiTheScavenger

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,804
    Ginaz said:
    A good take on this from Jim Fucking Sterling Son.  Best and most accurate line about micro transactions "Invent a problem, sell a solution".


    I'm sure he has some great points, but I can't take seriously getting my news from a clown act or dog and pony show. Edgy angry bombastic is so overdone and tiresome.

    To his quote I would change it to, "Invent a problem, sell a solution, and the market youtube revenue being angry about it."

    He doesn't solve any problems. He makes money off of pointing them out and then getting the masses to support that through ad clicks and such. They (the youtube personalities) are a part of the problem they complain about.
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • StizzledStizzled Springfield, MOMember RarePosts: 1,785
    edited August 14
    Torval said:
    Ginaz said:
    A good take on this from Jim Fucking Sterling Son.  Best and most accurate line about micro transactions "Invent a problem, sell a solution".


    I'm sure he has some great points, but I can't take seriously getting my news from a clown act or dog and pony show. Edgy angry bombastic is so overdone and tiresome.

    To his quote I would change it to, "Invent a problem, sell a solution, and the market youtube revenue being angry about it."

    He doesn't solve any problems. He makes money off of pointing them out and then getting the masses to support that through ad clicks and such. They (the youtube personalities) are a part of the problem they complain about.
    The Jimquisition web series is not monetized, both it and the website are funded by his Patreon supporters.
    Post edited by Stizzled on
    blueturtle13Gdemami
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Valve Corporation Member LegendaryPosts: 9,758
    Stizzled said:
    Torval said:
    Ginaz said:
    A good take on this from Jim Fucking Sterling Son.  Best and most accurate line about micro transactions "Invent a problem, sell a solution".


    I'm sure he has some great points, but I can't take seriously getting my news from a clown act or dog and pony show. Edgy angry bombastic is so overdone and tiresome.

    To his quote I would change it to, "Invent a problem, sell a solution, and the market youtube revenue being angry about it."

    He doesn't solve any problems. He makes money off of pointing them out and then getting the masses to support that through ad clicks and such. They (the youtube personalities) are a part of the problem they complain about.
    The Jimquisition web series is not monetized, both it and the website are funded by his Patreon supporters.
    lol
    Torval

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 23,082
    edited August 14
    Ginaz said:
    A good take on this from Jim Fucking Sterling Son.  Best and most accurate line about micro transactions "Invent a problem, sell a solution".



    While I'm a fan of his work (not so much when he started out) and I make a point to watch his show every Monday, I don't always agree with his points. Sometimes and sometimes very much so, but not every time and certainly not with this video.

    For instance, I don't agree with his stance about "preying upon" people with gambling tendencies. there are people who are addicted to video games in general. So should no one make video games?

    If one has a problem one should get help. Otherwise we are going to have to stop a lot of things that a segment of the population has become obsessed with in an unhealthy manner.

    I also don't believe that if someone buys an Orc on the market place that this means that getting one in game through play diminishes normal game play. That's way too simplistic.

    as far as "game developers have to make their money back" (which is discussed in this thread) I also think that's too simplistic. Warner Brothers is owned by Time Warner, a publicly traded company. And "yes" their investors want to see top dollar for their investment. That's life. If one doesn't like it then don't buy from publicly traded companies. Buy Indy games, done deal.

    So yes, they are going to try to increase their revenue streams. Can this ruin games? Sure, it can. But that's not a given and while I'm not inclined to swallow everything a large corporation says I'm also not inclined to swallow everything that a passionate critic says.

    I'll make up my own mind with my own experience. If someone can show how game play will actually be adversely affected with these loot boxes (of which I will not buy "a one") and that the game really is made super grindy then sure I'll listen. But as no one has the game in their hands I'll wait and see what my own experience is.
    Post edited by Sovrath on
    Torval



  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,208
    Torval said:
    Ginaz said:
    A good take on this from Jim Fucking Sterling Son.  Best and most accurate line about micro transactions "Invent a problem, sell a solution".


    I'm sure he has some great points, but I can't take seriously getting my news from a clown act or dog and pony show. Edgy angry bombastic is so overdone and tiresome.

    To his quote I would change it to, "Invent a problem, sell a solution, and the market youtube revenue being angry about it."

    He doesn't solve any problems. He makes money off of pointing them out and then getting the masses to support that through ad clicks and such. They (the youtube personalities) are a part of the problem they complain about.
    Clown or not, and I'm not a fan of his schtick, I'm glad there's someone on YT calling them out on it instead of just the "influencers" the companies promote as just another link in their PR chain.

    He may indeed be making a nice living off being the contrary voice but I don't see any non-profit orgs stepping forward to be a solution instead of part of the problem.

    Annoying as his style might be I still rather hear what he has to say than the same old shit from the apologists.
    blueturtle13GdemamiYashaXBuccaneer
    You say you never compromise
    With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
    He's not selling any alibis
    As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
    And say "Do you want to make a deal?"
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,804
    I agree with him sometimes, sometimes not, and sometimes I feel like he's pandering a bit to his constituency (or patrons lol). The critical eye and corporate accountability are also good. I simply think if he's serious about being taken seriously he'd take a little more professional tack. And the part about him making money is just to keep it all in perspective. There's nothing wrong with it, but he's there for the money too like all of us.
    blueturtle13
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Valve Corporation Member LegendaryPosts: 9,758
    Torval said:
    I agree with him sometimes, sometimes not, and sometimes I feel like he's pandering a bit to his constituency (or patrons lol). The critical eye and corporate accountability are also good. I simply think if he's serious about being taken seriously he'd take a little more professional tack. And the part about him making money is just to keep it all in perspective. There's nothing wrong with it, but he's there for the money too like all of us.
    Agreed 100%
    Torval

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 925
    edited August 15
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:


    Do I now have to present a complete breakdown of movie costs like I did with games and their inflation correction too to show you you might be wrong?

    But fine, I'll play along, digital distribution on games and movies might indeed be the same, I can't deny that. So, not 5 dollars for the retailer but 0,  it is STILL 105 bucks a game and I already gave you some slack with me taking off 31 dollars in the first place just to make a point, lets use that money to take away 7 dollars on returns and 7 dollars for the platform too. 

    It is not about being profitable or not, it is about a breakdown of the costs and why companies are looking at different and additional ways of generating revenue. It is not pure greed and yelling at cash shops or in game purchases, that is just a too simplified way to look at it.


    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Try manufacturing on for size if you want to learn about inflationary pressures.

    Lets see the margins and the returns. Then we can talk about whether its greed or not.

    No no no, this isn't how this works. I use several sources about inflation correction in gaming (IGN), production costs in gaming across the years (Wiki) and a breakdown of costs when it comes to gaming (New York Times) to do my math. I know the calculation is rough and dirty and that is why I use a MASSIVE margin of error to be on the safe side on things.

    You can not simply say ' you do not know what you are talking about'  without presenting ANYTHING to counter what I say. So far I have your opinion so if you want me to take you serious I'd like to see some sources, some numbers etc. Saying I am wrong is definitely not enough to counter what I've stated. 

    Just to be absolutely clear where I stand, I despise the micro transactions done in this game and will wait for a deep discount, if I'll buy it at all. I HATE P2W items but also don't see them in every single cash shop in every single game. I don't work or think in absolutes and am more then willing to consider the other side of things, which is exactly what I've done.

    And just for fun, your movie analogy would be more accurate if you'd look at ticket prices at the cinema and compare those of say 1970 to now, which is 1.55 dollars versus 8.89 dollars. THAT is where they added revenue, so they could keep the other prices lower. Same with music, albums are worth nothing these days so artists have to perform a LOT more then before and merchandise is more important then ever. And just like these forms of entertainment the gaming segment is looking at other ways to ad revenue, be it micro transactions, day one editions, DLC and so on, and so forth.

    Edit. I see I made a mistake too, I took off 7 dollars in returns twice. That leaves even more margin for errors from my side.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Post edited by lahnmir on
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 5,036
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:
    laserit said:
    lahnmir said:


    Do I now have to present a complete breakdown of movie costs like I did with games and their inflation correction too to show you you might be wrong?

    But fine, I'll play along, digital distribution on games and movies might indeed be the same, I can't deny that. So, not 5 dollars for the retailer but 0,  it is STILL 105 bucks a game and I already gave you some slack with me taking off 31 dollars in the first place just to make a point, lets use that money to take away 7 dollars on returns and 7 dollars for the platform too. 

    It is not about being profitable or not, it is about a breakdown of the costs and why companies are looking at different and additional ways of generating revenue. It is not pure greed and yelling at cash shops or in game purchases, that is just a too simplified way to look at it.


    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Try manufacturing on for size if you want to learn about inflationary pressures.

    Lets see the margins and the returns. Then we can talk about whether its greed or not.

    No no no, this isn't how this works. I use several sources about inflation correction in gaming (IGN), production costs in gaming across the years (Wiki) and a breakdown of costs when it comes to gaming (New York Times) to do my math. I know the calculation is rough and dirty and that is why I use a MASSIVE margin of error to be on the safe side on things.

    You can not simply say ' you do not know what you are talking about'  without presenting ANYTHING to counter what I say. So far I have your opinion so if you want me to take you serious I'd like to see some sources, some numbers etc. Saying I am wrong is definitely not enough to counter what I've stated. 

    Just to be absolutely clear where I stand, I despise the micro transactions done in this game and will wait for a deep discount, if I'll buy it at all. I HATE P2W items but also don't see them in every single cash shop in every single game. I don't work or think in absolutes and am more then willing to consider the other side of things, which is exactly what I've done.

    And just for fun, your movie analogy would be more accurate if you'd look at ticket prices at the cinema and compare those of say 1970 to now, which is 1.55 dollars versus 8.89 dollars. THAT is where they added revenue, so they could keep the other prices lower. Same with music, albums are worth nothing these days so artists have to perform a LOT more then before and merchandise is more important then ever. And just like these forms of entertainment the gaming segment is looking at other ways to ad revenue, be it micro transactions, day one editions, DLC and so on, and so forth.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    And a deck of cards costs two lousy bucks.

    Manufacturing a product line with zero inventory and no raw materials certainly does have it's advantages. Must be pretty difficult trying to keep stock on the shelfs. 

    I don't begrudge anyone making a good buck and a lot of people work hard and make a great living for themselves and their families, that's great.

    But...

     There comes a time when we come to a point where we may take something a little too far. 

    IMHO
    GdemamiTheScavenger

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

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