What have "MMOs" become? 40 player max per server is not an MMO....

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,290
    edited August 15
    Nm. You just aren't worth even the mild effort. 
    Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LerxstLerxst Phx, AZMember UncommonPosts: 620
    Too many replies to quote them all:

    As for an example - ARK describes itself as an MMO right on its Steam Store page. Definitely not an MMO by MMO standards, though.

    I can't stand these Micro-MO games. Too many variations between servers. Too many admins-on-a-whim per server. Too few rules, or too many rules that are not universal to each server. Too chaotic of a player base in terms of numbers playing - 100 one day, and 5 next month. No transfer of characters, or transfer of characters between servers with different rule sets. Too many cliques, one clan on one server can just take over the whole thing. And the buy-to-play model of these games doesn't do enough to ensure a mature player base on each server.

    Even the MMOs coming out, can barely call themselves MMOs though. Instanced games, where players walk around a city and then instance into areas with only a few other people, barely meets the criteria of an MMO since most of the action takes place away form the masses.

    MOBAs like to call themselves MMOs, but they're really just glorified Quake-style game servers.

    Then the MMO market has been saturated by a huge number of indie attempts that the 1,000 people who may have played one game, have been divided 10 different ways into 10 games.

    Small publishers and developers have also take the reigns on some tried and true game styles, but... they're small. Their games generally lack the rules the larger games have - it's easier to allow a free-for-all, then to implement limits and hire GMs to investigate abuse. They need money, so they implement cash shops; they enter early access too early for fast cash, but their popularity dies down quickly; the actively support the player abuse in order to bring in more money to their cash shops... etc. etc. etc.

    Unless a legitimate company starts to work on a classic style MMO, with the thousands of players in a single world, open-ended gameplay, universal, player driven economy and crafting, a capable staff and constant support for their game, then we're not going to be seeing a legitimate MMO for a very, very, very long time :(
    GdemamiTuor7
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    Lerxst said:


    Unless a legitimate company starts to work on a classic style MMO, with the thousands of players in a single world, open-ended gameplay, universal, player driven economy and crafting, a capable staff and constant support for their game, then we're not going to be seeing a legitimate MMO for a very, very, very long time :(
    You are not. Most players don't care about the kind of games.

    And the world does not really need "legitimate MMO". There is nothing wrong with just current "MMOs" if players are having fun. 
    Phry
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 4,824


    ;)
    TheScavenger

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • sayuusayuu glendale, AZMember UncommonPosts: 508
    edited August 16
    Are ya'll as Hyped as I am for that new MMO just announced???


    It called Solitaire: The Definitive  MMO Experience. . .
    Post edited by sayuu on
    PhryNildenAelious
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    But to answer your question a rifle is a gun, but a gun isn't necessarily a rifle.
    Yep, and while a MMO is a multiplayer game, not all multiplayer games are MMOs.

    When mmos get a concrete definition like rifle has then there may be less confusion. The difference here is that MMO is an ambiguous marketing term. A rifle is a concrete object with clearly definable characteristics.

    From wikipedia
    A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a barrel that has a helical groove or pattern of grooves ("rifling") cut into the barrel walls. The raised areas of the rifling are called "lands," which make contact with the projectile (for small arms usage, called a bullet), imparting spin around an axis corresponding to the orientation of the weapon.

    Those are all clearly defined easily measured characteristics. Gaming, mmos, and multiplayer games have very little concrete to work with and a lot of variables that make clear definitions a challenge.

    Interesting, despite there being a very clear definition of a concrete item, the same wiki article goes on to say: 

    "The word "rifle" is now used for any long hand-held aimed device activated by a trigger, such as Air rifles and the Personnel halting and stimulation response rifle. Rifles are used in warfarehunting and shooting sports."

    This includes assault rifles which can also be called (incorrectly) machine guns, repeating rifles and perhaps shotguns using "rifled" slugs.

    Heck in Fallout New Vegas we have laser, plasma, and anti matter "rifles" so clearly the concept has changed from the original definition.

    So perhaps its time MMOs did as well.


    SpottyGekko

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,768
    edited August 16
    Kyleran said:
    So perhaps its time MMOs did as well.
    They already did some time ago...some people are just slower at catching up, some never will...
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 792
    edited August 16
    Since when did a Volvo 140 turned into a Porsche 970?


    Post edited by Maurgrim on
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    Maurgrim said:
    Since when did a Volvo 140 turned into a Porsche 970?


    when people do not care enough to distinguish them? Lucky for Volvo and Porsche, that has not happened to them yet.

    You cannot say the same for MMO though. 
  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,557
    Maurgrim said:
    Since when did a Volvo 140 turned into a Porsche 970?


    when people do not care enough to distinguish them? Lucky for Volvo and Porsche, that has not happened to them yet.

    You cannot say the same for MMO though. 
    I'm curious Narius. Whilst I enjoy your particular brand of trolling, it is extremely rare for you to ever post an actual opinion. Would you be able to give us one on this subject?

    If you feel able, please could you define what you, personally, believe an MMO to be?
    GdemamiKyleran
  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,158
    Maurgrim said:
    Since when did a Volvo 140 turned into a Porsche 970?


    when people do not care enough to distinguish them? Lucky for Volvo and Porsche, that has not happened to them yet.

    You cannot say the same for MMO though. 
    No it's the same. The idiots who can't tell the difference between massively multiplayer and just multiplayer look just like some moron who can't tell the difference between a Volvo and a Porsche.

    Only instead of a Volvo and Porsche it might as well be a unicycle and a train.
    GdemamiJean-Luc_PicardKyleranOG_Zorvan

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    Maurgrim said:
    Since when did a Volvo 140 turned into a Porsche 970?


    when people do not care enough to distinguish them? Lucky for Volvo and Porsche, that has not happened to them yet.

    You cannot say the same for MMO though. 
    I'm curious Narius. Whilst I enjoy your particular brand of trolling, it is extremely rare for you to ever post an actual opinion. Would you be able to give us one on this subject?

    If you feel able, please could you define what you, personally, believe an MMO to be?
    No. First, the mystery will be gone and it will be less fun. Second, i don't care enough to define it carefully. It is much more fun to read around and see how diverse the opinions (or well, some here will defend with their lives that theirs are not opinions, but ironclad logic) are.

    I am, however, of the opinion that whatever a MMO is, it is not as important to most than you might think. 
  • TimEisenTimEisen Columnist Member RarePosts: 2,972
    Those aren't MMORPGs. WOW barely qualifies anymore. Its more of a dungeon crawler. 

    I believe the problem is the lack of a true MMORPG engine. Maybe CSE's engine will be sold to power more true MMORPGs? 
    NildenGdemamicameltosis
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
    "Basically if a Ninja Turtle used it, or close to it, I like it."
  • TimEisenTimEisen Columnist Member RarePosts: 2,972
    SBFord said:
    It's funny -- as I've watched Camelot Unchained test 3000 bots to try out server load capacity and I see other MMOs bragging about battles with thousands (or hundreds?) of participants, I always think....really? With today's shifting loyalties and players jumping from one game to the next and the next and so on, how many games can realistically expect that more than 100 would actually participate? 

    Just like I hate gigantic crowds in real life, I hate 'em in my games. As @keller said, most people spend the vast majority of their time in any "MMO" with 3-9 other people. Seeing hundreds of others running around that I don't give a damn about doesn't make the experience more compelling -- just more annoying. :D

    Conceptually, I like the idea of servers as they are now, though I don't think it would be bad to allow for up to 200.  I just wish all the games that did such things weren't survival games (yes, I know that those features can be toned way down or even off but the point stands).

    I absolutely LOVED Neverwinter Nights persistent worlds and played on one that regularly had 50-100 people on it with active DMs that were interacting with us. I played on one (GLORWING!) for about 2 years and never felt the world was underpopulated. I miss those days.

    Game jumping is really something MMO fans don't discuss enough. Back in the day people grabbed a MMO and played it almost exclusively for a year. Now days guilds have to dedicate nights for certain games just to focus members and most guilds themselves are multi game now. That used to be unheard of and looked down upon! Discord saw it coming and found a way to unite the social gamers while supporting the modern multi game trend. Never before have we had so many games at our finger tips. Its fantastic for the consumer but certainly has some negatives for the dedicated MMORPGers. 


    Crowds, couldn't agree more. :D That said I always thought the ability to support those battles isn't in expectation for them to happen. They keep saying if they cant support the big battles they failed but I know they also said they realize battles that large will be rare. I thought it was more so to create a rock solid game that offers a giant open world with little technical issues during PVP, which other games have badly failed at. I certainly hope CU will be more open world MMORPG than Planet Side. 

    I wonder if the CU engine will enable PVE mob density in exceptional numbers as well? It could be interesting for other games using the tech. 
    Gdemami
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
    "Basically if a Ninja Turtle used it, or close to it, I like it."
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    TimEisen said:
    Those aren't MMORPGs. WOW barely qualifies anymore. Its more of a dungeon crawler. 

    I believe the problem is the lack of a true MMORPG engine. Maybe CSE's engine will be sold to power more true MMORPGs? 
    I disagree about the lack of mmo engines. Firstly, you don't need 500 or a thousand people in one place all the time as Albion reminded me. In fact you need to a reason to have them all in that place at the same time or it just becomes an arcade circus of avatars and nametags.

    Additionally, there are engines where massive amounts of people can and do congregate in the same place. So it can't be a lack of mmo engines.

    The issue is that games are designed around what most players like to do. How can you say, with a straight face, that WoW barely qualifies? It meets all the requirements, literally. People aren't playing it like a traditional mmo anymore because that's not how they want to play. Blizzard is just accommodating how their players want to enjoy the game. People could play it like a traditional mmorpg if they wanted to, and I bet there are a lot of people doing just that.

    So if there are more games not cutting out some of the traditional mmorpg designs it's because that's what players want.
    Jean-Luc_PicardGdemamiAzaron_Nightblade
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
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  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,158
    Maurgrim said:
    Since when did a Volvo 140 turned into a Porsche 970?


    when people do not care enough to distinguish them? Lucky for Volvo and Porsche, that has not happened to them yet.

    You cannot say the same for MMO though. 
    I'm curious Narius. Whilst I enjoy your particular brand of trolling, it is extremely rare for you to ever post an actual opinion. Would you be able to give us one on this subject?

    If you feel able, please could you define what you, personally, believe an MMO to be?
    No. First, the mystery will be gone and it will be less fun. Second, i don't care enough to define it carefully. It is much more fun to read around and see how diverse the opinions (or well, some here will defend with their lives that theirs are not opinions, but ironclad logic) are.

    I am, however, of the opinion that whatever a MMO is, it is not as important to most than you might think.
    You know the difference and don't care because you have fun trolling.

    Mystery solved.
    CecropiaKyleran

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    TimEisen said:
    Those aren't MMORPGs. WOW barely qualifies anymore. Its more of a dungeon crawler. 

    I believe the problem is the lack of a true MMORPG engine. Maybe CSE's engine will be sold to power more true MMORPGs? 

    Now you know why everything under the sun is listed as MMOs here. Otherwise, there will be a lot fewer games to talk about. 

    Paradoxically, people here don't talk about specific games much anyway. The forum is more for arguing about age-old feuds like pvp vs pve and so on.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    Nilden said:

    You know the difference and don't care because you have fun trolling.

    Mystery solved.
    lol .. that is not that mystery. But if you just figure this out, you are probably a bit slow in terms of logical reasoning. 
    Gdemami
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,360
    TimEisen said:
    Those aren't MMORPGs. WOW barely qualifies anymore. Its more of a dungeon crawler. 

    I believe the problem is the lack of a true MMORPG engine. Maybe CSE's engine will be sold to power more true MMORPGs? 

    Now you know why everything under the sun is listed as MMOs here. Otherwise, there will be a lot fewer games to talk about. 

    Pretty sure that's been noted over and over here for years now.  Where is this "now you know" nonsense coming from?
    Gdemami

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    TimEisen said:
    Those aren't MMORPGs. WOW barely qualifies anymore. Its more of a dungeon crawler. 

    I believe the problem is the lack of a true MMORPG engine. Maybe CSE's engine will be sold to power more true MMORPGs? 

    Now you know why everything under the sun is listed as MMOs here. Otherwise, there will be a lot fewer games to talk about. 

    Pretty sure that's been noted over and over here for years now.  Where is this "now you know" nonsense coming from?
    Tell that to TimEisen, who seems to have just figured it out. 
    Gdemami
  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,158
    Nilden said:

    You know the difference and don't care because you have fun trolling.

    Mystery solved.
    lol .. that is not that mystery. But if you just figure this out, you are probably a bit slow in terms of logical reasoning. 
    If I'm slow you're not even moving.
    KyleranCecropia

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    edited August 22
    TimEisen said:
    Those aren't MMORPGs. WOW barely qualifies anymore. Its more of a dungeon crawler. 

    I believe the problem is the lack of a true MMORPG engine. Maybe CSE's engine will be sold to power more true MMORPGs? 

    Now you know why everything under the sun is listed as MMOs here. Otherwise, there will be a lot fewer games to talk about. 

    Paradoxically, people here don't talk about specific games much anyway. The forum is more for arguing about age-old feuds like pvp vs pve and so on.
    Actually there are quite a few game related threads going on at any given moment, but I have noticed you rarely opine in most, and when you do it's just to derail them with one of your pet topics.

     In fact, just did a quick head count, 13 game related threads on the front page of discussions, 7 not.


    Post edited by Kyleran on
    SpottyGekkoGdemamiMadFrenchieJean-Luc_PicardCecropia

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • IceAgeIceAge SomeWhere In .. RomaniaMember RarePosts: 1,666
    techinally, it is a MMO just not a HUGE MMO
    Technically , you are wrong. 
    Gdemami

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    Kyleran said:


     In fact, just did a quick head count, 13 game related threads on the front page of discussions, 7 not.



    So about 1/3 of the MMORPG forum is not talking about MMORP games .. sounds about right. Did you take the number of posts in each into account? I bet that skew the results some more to the "not game discussion" side.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,243
    IceAge said:
    techinally, it is a MMO just not a HUGE MMO
    Technically , you are wrong. 
    Technically, there is no consensus of what a MMO is. There is disagreement between some forum poster here, with the game list on this site, and also the game classification on massivelyop.com, not to mention superdata, game reviewers, and so on.

    In fact, are you even surprised that someone else (in this case HeyYouVideoGame) define a MMO different than you do?

    Do keep telling him he is wrong though. Please let me know if you have any effect on what he believes. That should be interesting.  
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