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Rufus D`Asperdi - since i'm a whale i can derail all i want
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Also where is this game studio anyways is it from the U.S?
You really can't see why 350 people out of 60k is not a majority? The people following the storu stuff were driven away long before the PVP players wanting UO of old. Hell, most of the people who were interested in story didn't even like UO for obvious reasons. You suffer from the same problem others who argued this point of view....small numbers meaning majority in a PVP thread. Which if you will recall many PVPers argued you shouldn't even post in unless you were interested. It is a very self destructive group in there.
we're going to need more trainwreck memes
No whales - no game
Just I don't think that this is something positive at all.
F2P companies are well aware that catering the game to the whales has drawbacks. In their case I can see it being justified because they are for-profit companies who's first priority is making money, not making a good game. When people fund a kickstarter, however, they're doing so presumably because they want a good game, not something that makes money.
(of course, MMORPGs need to make money for their continued survival, but that's a separate issue that basically boils down to "MMORPGs are ill-suited for crowdfunding". That and Shroud was supposed to have an offline mode which wouldn't have needed ongoing funding to survive once downloaded onto your computer)
Would be interesting to see a poll from late 2013 or early 2014 that give another result then the one's i linked to.
Later polls will of course be inaccurate since most PvP players left the game after 5% loot and a combat system that was a card one.
We don't have too... as I already said, we've got 20 YEARS of Industry experience since UO went live. We know why UO introduced Trammel. They had "Exit Polls" for why people were quitting at the time. We know why no one else was able to make a Pre-Ren game work after that time. Do you really think no one has done further polls as to why in 20 years...?
Look, can't you see that you're simply cherry picking one piece of poll data to confirm your own beliefs, rather than having the courage to actually learn, grow, accept that your playstyle isn't the centre of the universe?
Hell, I don't care if you get a full on PvP game. That's what FPS and RTS ultimately are too, which I've played a tonne of. But the idea that a single poll on an already biased forum, which can be manipulated by exactly the kind of proxy voting they're bragging about trying to do to Steam today, which flies in the face of all experience for two decades is somehow telling us anything beyond that you don't know how to read data correctly is just ridiculous...
I mean, I even gave you an example of my actually trying to help your playstyle as paid Ultima Online staff... which you just ignored because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe.
I've got direct, personal experience of how you're a tiny minority who know how to shout very, very loud, but do nothing to even help get the kind of content you say you want; until you learn to accept that, you'll just waste more decades shouting about things that weren't even true at the time you experienced them.
It's like the best music was the ones played in your best years. For everyone. Best album? Usually the first one that you liked. The one that got you into that band. All you're really telling us is that UO was the game that got you into gaming, or seemed the most exciting at the time you were a teenager. And you can't let go of that feeling.
But it wasn't the reality. Trammel SAVED UO, from people like you. Subs continued to rise until Age of Shadows in 2003. Those are the simple facts. A stuffed poll on a biased forum about something they never could have given you in that setting but you just don't understand that tells us nothing.
And nor would finding one that's been stuffed the other way either.
Me and my guild played UO from beta up until AoS. Later we played Renaissance freeshards for +10 years.
UO started to die with Age of Shadows feb 2003. The one later responsible for the game WoW totally changed UO into a game similar to WoW. Tom Chilton.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tom_Chilton
After AoS many felucca players searched for similar games. Many joined the UO Renaissance freeshards. The largest had forums with 250K members, UOgamers. Defiance (mainly EU) had 100K members. Of course all of them didn't play the game but it say something about the interest.
When Garriott said that SotA would be a spiritual successor to Ultima Online many old UO felucca players got their hopes up that it would become a game close to old UO.
The interest for risk vs reward games with consequences as full loot is way higher then many PvE players claim.
Some even claim that felucca died after trammel which was a blatant lie for it suited the agenda. I played on Europe server after trammel and it was the best time me and my guild ever had playing UO.
So the question is - how many from the UO pre AoS era founded SotA when it was on kickstarter?
Since there is no such numbers available it is anybodies guess.
But what i do know is that if Garriott had went out saying we will make a pre AoS UO game called UO2 with something similar to trammel/felucca then he would have gotten alot more funding.
Sure it can be a biased poll but still i have not seen anything from you that tell me you are right in your assumption. There was not only old Ultima players among the kickstarter funders there was also alot of old UO players. How many wanted a UO2 game? How many wanted another Ultima game?
You tell me.
The interest for hardcore gaming can still be seen in games like Rust and H1Z1 (just 2 examples). They're not exactly like UO but the risk vs reward and full loot aspects is there. Many players like the consequence parts in games.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/433850#scrollTop=0
http://steamcommunity.com/app/252490
A new version of pre AoS Ultima Online would have become more of a success then SotA. They would have needed Raph Koster as designer of the combat system though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raph_Koster
This thread over at SotA made me laugh -
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/h1z1-or-why-open-pvp-with-full-loot-will-never-be-for-the-masses.19744/
He tried H1Z1 and say this -
Quote - "
Just tried the Early Access Version of H1Z1 on an open PvP full loot server and what can I say? I am so glad that SotA will offer a single player mode...
My first hours in H1Z1 reminded me of why I normally don't do PvP and why I do like single player games much more than MMOs. It also showed me why open PvP with full loot will never be for the masses.
Being shot multiple times while trying to figure out the game. Having found some food after some time, being shot, looted and then having to start without food again, starving - is not funny.
Being insulted as a child who should let the adults play after asking some questions and then being shot, is not funny either.
No, open PvP with full loot will NEVER be for the masses." - end quote.
H1Z1 have today +95000 playing, how many have SotA?
Steam charts has them at 124 right now with an average of 129.7 for the last 30 days.
Also, it wasn't just a spiritual successor to UO....this little game called ultima was mentioned as well.
I see no reason why they wouldn't work in a RPG, do you?
Wether game should have full loot or not was not decided during kickstarter. It was decided later on. Same with combat system. Death system was also something that was decided later on.
It was discussed after kickstarter wether game should or not have full loot -
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/open-pvp-with-full-loot-everywhere-in-online-mode.2037/
Only PvP feature that was more or less decided during kickstarter was there would not be non-consensual PvP. Just like felucca/trammel. And that is alright for me cause i enjoy fighting other player's that is prepared.
Seems to me many want to play games with full loot and consequences. Risk vs reward seem to be very popular.
Full loot, consequences and risk vs reward add thrill to game that some players seek.
When gear was as easily replaced as they were in pre AoS UO you were back fighting in 2 minutes after you got the 3 needed regs in your backpack. Recall on a rune to a bank took 5 sec, reequip took 1 minute and 5 sec recall back.
Players that have no experience of such consensual games like pre AoS felucca just don't understand how full loot work when implemented well.
That can't be real...
It's real. https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/seedinvest-campaign-discussions-with-richard-garriott-lord-british.91215/page-40#post-859848
It's in SotA's seedinvest announcement for crying outloud! All the whales have been giving each other high-fives about how awesome they are since the campaign closed a few days ago. It's been hysterical! But just looking at it just now, whales are getting frustrated and starting to ask where their money went - seedinvest apparently shut down the campaign page and there's been no updates from Portalarium haha
Every game of H1Z1 or any survival game resets at the start of each round. There is no permanent loss, like Full Loot in UO. The amount of people who want to lose a house key or an item that could cost hundreds of dollars in the grey market, or just thousands of hours of grinding time is tiny.
Even EvE Online has insurance, and clones, and safer zones.
And again, I've been paid to try and provide that content not just in an RPG, but the specific RPG you're basing your hopes upon. I was EM Gotan on Europa. Go and find the Stratics thread where I try and hash out a simple combat event with your community. I'll get you the link later when I get back home and have time to google it. Why are you just avoiding that point?
My experience of your community was the tossers in PRO tried to get me sacked before I'd even held an event, by falsely reporting in I was duping items, and then ruined the first event even with Mesanna stood there just for LULz.
If not the same individuals, then the same broken mindsets run rampant in Shroud today. With the result that players want MORE not LESS hard discipline.
Full Loot is never coming back in an MMO with more than a few hundred players. Even then you'll individually try and maximise the loss for everyone else, whilst using any and every possible advantage, hack, cheat, rules-lawyering etc to minimize it for yourselves. It was, is, always will be an illusion, a mistake, something you just formed an attachment too because the mistake happened at a formative time for you personally.
attitude=ban
attitude+$$$$=win
Because science
All PvP players in UO Renaissance had in their bank sets of magic or GM made armor, magic or GM made weapons, potions, regs, para boxes and on and on. Players prepared for easy restock.
Players that have no experience of such consensual PvP games like pre AoS felucca just don't understand how full loot work when implemented well.
I doubt you have even close my experience of what PrE AoS full loot was.
I even doubt you worked on UO Europe during Renaissance era cause just about all tourneys were created by players.
Since you claim you worked on UO Renaissance EU tell me which guild and guild GM arranged most of these player made tourneys. Or even easier tell me any PvP guild from Europe server from UO Renaissance time? You claim you worked with combat events so you should know the largest PvP guilds at least.
What combat events are you talking about? Give me some example of what combat events you offered on the UO Renaissance EU server.
Claiming this or that is easy i can now inform you that i am actually Richard Garriott, surprice!!
In H1Z1 dying is harder then it was in pre AoS UO (Renaissance) since you resurect with only basic gear and still +105000 was online this morning playing it. Isnt that strange?
quote "The player will respawn with basic gear and what they originally began the game with, with the exception of any purchased items, which will still be in the player's account inventory." - end quote.
https://h1z1.gamepedia.com/Death
Your permanent loss of gear claim tell me you have little to no experience what that ment to a UO PvP player during Renaissance era. It was only a minor set back and definetly not something that made anyone rage quit.
This game along with your post just reminded me of how I won my UO Charter edition! I filled out a survey on if I would be interested in a Wing Commander Online game and what I would want in it. . Totally forgot about that! Thanks!
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
A simple example:
At no point did I say I worked on Pre-AoS Ultima. I even told you my EM name so you could find the exact dates I was on staff, as well as the content I tried to run for the Felucca rule set. I still have access to the gmail account associated with it, if you want to check... Of course I could just tell you any email address, so go ahead, re-read what I actually said, locate the name, check the net archives for yourself, and see who replies to the historical gmail you find.
I was trying to explain the wider context that you just can't grasp, from someone who has worked on the game you are trying to re-write history about.
Are you seriously also trying to claim no one ever quit UO because they got Full Looted?
Earlier in this thread, you were agreeing that was why Trammel was created, and it was a good thing! Have you forgotten what you just said?
But because you look at the industry like staring down a toilet roll, because your thinking is locked to a specific time frame in a single game at a single moment in your life, you assume I must be talking about that time frame too. I wasn't. I don't need too, because the issues are industry wide. No one else is as self limiting in understanding as you were.
Likewise the claims that we need to find a poll under your specific conditions. Genuine understanding would grasp that I could just as easily point to specific countries and say "Find me a poll where Dictator X gets less than 90% of the vote." The wider point is so blatantly obvious as to be laughable to everyone else... but you seem to think it makes an argument for the popularity of Full Loot in an MMO
You didn't even grasp the concept of different game design; Survival Horror isn't an MMO. Nor is an FPS or an RTS. It's just not. That you even try to argue it is, is just ridiculous.
You know, I'd have a lot more respect for you if you'd just accept you like what you like, but it's a minority viewpoint. At least acknowledge what other people actually think, even if you won't listen to industry experience which is trying to please those opinions. But like so many Full Looters, you've spent decades building up this insane alternative reality which is just as distorted as the Shroudies you condemn.
It's not Hardcore to refuse to face the world as it really is. No matter how much you try and say "Dude I am teh original pre-AoS hardcore". No one gives a shit. It doesn't matter. Your experience wasn't that important. And the world has moved on.
Felucca during Renaissance was crowded on the EU server and it was a consensual PvP game with full loot and very easy to restock and get back into the action.
Games that have minor setbacks on full loot death's no matter what type they are still have a solid player base. Calling them different type of games won't give you a stronger case.
UO Renaissance had full loot and a minor setback upon death - you had to restock for 2 minutes. Felluca was very popular during Renaissance and that was also why so many Renaissance freeshards were created after AoS. UOgamers as an example had 500000 following their game on their forums.
H1Z1 with today +100000 playing ingame same time also have a minor setback upon death. You have to wait abit and loose the good gear you had found. Pretty much similar to the full loot setting of UO Renaissance.
Tell me why such a MMO game won't work today when other full loot games like H1Z1 work? Pretty much the similar punish upon death.
Why these H1Z1 players wouldn' want to try out a full loot game in old felucca settings is still unanswered. You avoid answering why and i can understand you have a hard time making up a story for that that make any sense.
Of course these players today active in full loot games would love to take part in a MMO like UO2 with a felucca setting with full loot. They seem to love the risk vs reward and the consequences. So evidently there is a huge community out there that like games like old felluca.
Ask yourself why felucca died after it became a WoW game feb 2003? All my PvP friends left felucca after AoS and joined free shards with close to the settings UO had pre AoS. They left because of insurance and ubergear only reachable by getting heavy into PvE. No longer was the crafter gear well enough to compete.
So felluca died cause it became a carebear game and the community that left still exists and play other games with risk vs reward and consequences.
You are claiming full loot won't work in today MMO gaming and you actually have nothing to back your theory then plain saying it wont.
Edit: EA never asked the felluca players if the changes with AoS was wantable. They just implemented it and the result was players left the game.