State of Elyria

2

Comments

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko JohannesburgMember EpicPosts: 6,539
    Rusque said:
    I think my favorite fan defense for the ridiculously short release date was that Caspian had developed the engine over the last 10 years and everything was really far along, so it was totally plausible!
    And don't forget the miracle of SpatialOS which was going to cut down dev time significantly !

    The justification for the short dev time was that they already had the story engine working, and by using third-party middleware and store-bought assets, they could deliver the game in record time. So much for THAT plan, lol
    DiegoMarquez
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,735
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    SedrynTyros

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • BestinnaBestinna Member UncommonPosts: 139
    was a scam on day one and still is a scam. told ya so
    Gdemami
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,454
    Beta 1 in q1 2019
    Beta 2 in q2 2019
    Release in q2 2019

    Fairly obvious to anyone that it takes more than a quarter to go from beta to launch.
    Slapshot1188
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 806
    If they're really only just hiring the talent just now, I think 2019 is pretty darn unrealistic too given how long MMOs typically take to develop these days combined with CoE's also ridiculously unrealistic features list.
    Gdemami
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,825
    edited July 28
    Rusque said:
    I think my favorite fan defense for the ridiculously short release date was that Caspian had developed the engine over the last 10 years and everything was really far along, so it was totally plausible!
    Wait! Isn't that SpatialOS? Am I confused or is he saying he's been developing that for 10 years?

    Well, OK, I AM confused, but still........
    Post edited by GeezerGamer on
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,236
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    No, most of realize this isn't being run by evil geniuses, (see Ashes of Creation for that)

    This is being delivered by people who were basically clueless when they pitched it.

    In this write up its clear once they hired some people with actual experience in delivering online games they had to reset the bar.

    The reason it's bothersome is smarter people than them called this out and they either willfully ignored it to help push the KSer or really were too stupid to take solid advice.

    What else in their vision isn't really practical or possible.
    GdemamiSlapshot1188DakeruNildenTimEisen

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,236
    If their timeline was unrealistic (1.5+ years off even), it only makes you wonder what other promises and features turn out to be unrealistic. Not really a confidence booster. 
    Remember that time = money...  

    They are already dong bizarre things like saying their Alpha server will be packed up and shipped to different regions during the test instead of buying 4 of them.  Also, mark my words, they will soon announce a great opportunity:  More limited time sales!
    You don't just double the timeline without considering impacts to the budget, hence the new DLC being sold. (And more to come)
    GdemamiSlapshot1188

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,799
    Kyleran said:
    summ version pls

    the vid looks alot better then the previeus ones


    Very in depth progress summary, worth the read.

    Most notable take away for me, they ran into the same issue CU did, hiring appropriate talent took much longer than expected.

    As a result the schedule has slipped considerably and final launch is now targeted for 2nd half of 2019.

    First MMO dev I've seen discuss project management principles and get it right.
    Finally a realistic date!

    If this guy (and his fans) had been realistic at the start he would have had much less negativity.  Instead they were selling ridiculous timelines that some were defending by explaining how they were geniuses who were changing the way games were made. Remember... Kickstarter said Dec 2017.  Now we are back to a normal MMORPG timeline.  Q4 2019 is double the original estimate and is at least possible.  



    Who was saying they believed it could actually be delivered by Dec 2017?  I remember a bunch of people, like myself, all admitting they thought that timeline wasn't realistic.
  • WellspringWellspring Charlotte, NCMember RarePosts: 455
    Call me old fashioned, but I chose to take them at their word. Especially after seeing Caspians confidence level... when he announced using SpatialOS, missing the release date was the least of his concerns -- like totatally implausible.

    Did I think that the timeline was realistic? Sure, I was skeptical. But I wasn't the person setting the timeline, nor did I know the inner workings of the company. So, if that's the date they were shouting from the rooftops, then who are we to argue. 

    This all leads to conclude either:

    a) Caspian intentionally lied about the date, knowing it wasn't realistic, in order to inspire confidence to fund the project. Then, now after a safe time has passed, he released the real timeline, masked by this story of hiring woes. 

    b) Caspian really believed the project would be done in Dec 2017, and based the project on that timeframe. Then, 6 months before release has come to the sudden realization, it's going to take years longer. 

    Frankly, I'm not sure which is better?

    KyleranSlapshot1188Octagon7711
    --------------------------------------------
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 806


    a) Caspian intentionally lied about the date, knowing it wasn't realistic, in order to inspire confidence to fund the project. Then, now after a safe time has passed, he released the real timeline, masked by this story of hiring woes. 

    b) Caspian really believed the project would be done in Dec 2017, and based the project on that timeframe. Then, 6 months before release has come to the sudden realization, it's going to take years longer. 

    Frankly, I'm not sure which is better?

    That's precisely it.  No matter which option is the case, it doesn't reflect very well on Caspian.  The same goes for a lot of other Kickstarter projects that end up getting delayed at the last moment, not that that stops particularly rabid fans.
    KyleranNilden
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,185
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    I gave you FACTS... you gave me back OPINIONS... and then talked about replacing stuff with my own reality.   Someone needs a reality check all right but it's not the skeptics...

    TalonsinGdemamiDakeru

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,825
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    Wait what?
    You say "It's in the write up" OK, so it is... But then you say
    "Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you." So according to this post, I have a choice to believe a company that has proven what they say is questionable and if I don't, then the world is out to get me?

    You will have to pardon me if I stopped reading there.
    GdemamiDakeru
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,236
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    Wait what?
    You say "It's in the write up" OK, so it is... But then you say
    "Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you." So according to this post, I have a choice to believe a company that has proven what they say is questionable and if I don't, then the world is out to get me?

    You will have to pardon me if I stopped reading there.
    C'mon,  you are just a hater, admit it. 

    :wink:
    Dakeru

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,185
    Kyleran said:
    summ version pls

    the vid looks alot better then the previeus ones


    Very in depth progress summary, worth the read.

    Most notable take away for me, they ran into the same issue CU did, hiring appropriate talent took much longer than expected.

    As a result the schedule has slipped considerably and final launch is now targeted for 2nd half of 2019.

    First MMO dev I've seen discuss project management principles and get it right.
    Finally a realistic date!

    If this guy (and his fans) had been realistic at the start he would have had much less negativity.  Instead they were selling ridiculous timelines that some were defending by explaining how they were geniuses who were changing the way games were made. Remember... Kickstarter said Dec 2017.  Now we are back to a normal MMORPG timeline.  Q4 2019 is double the original estimate and is at least possible.  



    Who was saying they believed it could actually be delivered by Dec 2017?  I remember a bunch of people, like myself, all admitting they thought that timeline wasn't realistic.
    Really?  There were TONS of defenders arguing how realistic the time was...  
    Do you really need me to go dig up a dozen quotes?
    How about I just find one from Mr. Caspien himself in response to a question:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Q: The stated timeline of end of 2017 for FULL RELEASE is not a realistic one. Not even close.

    A: Noted. I'm curious, however, what you're basing that on? Is it based on your development experience? Your insider knowledge into what business deals we've been working on? Have you peeked at our Gantt chart? Maybe you feel like using purchased assets from the Unreal Marketplace won't speed up development? Could it be you know that our choice of programming language for the server will slow down development? Anything? You got anything to substantiate your claim?


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/7030/no-longer-backing-coe?page=1



    Here is my favorite part of Caspien's response to his own customer who dared express skepticism at the 2017 release date:

    As a last bit of advice, you may consider that a large percentage of a studios' time is spent answering unsubstantiated threads like this instead of working on the game itself. Literally, the 30 minutes I spent answering this thread was time not spent doing more important things. But when the community "demands a response," what choice do we have? If it were up to us, there would be less pointless accusations designed solely to insight controversy, so that we could spend the time developing



    So yeah.. go back and read this stuff.  Look not only at his answers (and his supporters') but also at the dismissive tone used repeatedly... anytime someone dared suggest his targets were not realistic.  




    KyleranGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,735
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    Wait what?
    You say "It's in the write up" OK, so it is... But then you say
    "Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you." So according to this post, I have a choice to believe a company that has proven what they say is questionable and if I don't, then the world is out to get me?

    You will have to pardon me if I stopped reading there.

    If you don't get it, I can't help you understand it. If you don't see some of what I'm talking about as blatant paranoia and not objectivity, then maybe you're part of the problem. Transparency is a great idea when you're dealing with someone other than a group of retarded people. 
    KyleranGdemami

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,236
    edited July 29
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    Wait what?
    You say "It's in the write up" OK, so it is... But then you say
    "Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you." So according to this post, I have a choice to believe a company that has proven what they say is questionable and if I don't, then the world is out to get me?

    You will have to pardon me if I stopped reading there.

    If you don't get it, I can't help you understand it. If you don't see some of what I'm talking about as blatant paranoia and not objectivity, then maybe you're part of the problem. Transparency is a great idea when you're dealing with someone other than a group of retarded people. 
    Really no worse than blind faith and willfully ignoring clear signs of warning. 

    Trust is earned by keeping one's word and meeting their commitments.


    Post edited by Kyleran on
    GdemamiDakeruSlapshot1188

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Tiamat64 said:


    a) Caspian intentionally lied about the date, knowing it wasn't realistic, in order to inspire confidence to fund the project. Then, now after a safe time has passed, he released the real timeline, masked by this story of hiring woes. 

    b) Caspian really believed the project would be done in Dec 2017, and based the project on that timeframe. Then, 6 months before release has come to the sudden realization, it's going to take years longer. 

    Frankly, I'm not sure which is better?

    That's precisely it.  No matter which option is the case, it doesn't reflect very well on Caspian.  The same goes for a lot of other Kickstarter projects that end up getting delayed at the last moment, not that that stops particularly rabid fans.
    It's not just these guys doing that, it's just about every MMO type of crowdfunded product that has been guilty of this practice. They just about all offer a lowball number in terms of product availability. They almost all have later offered more realistic or indefinite (when it's ready) dates. It really makes no sense because most know those dates aren't realistic in the first place. It's just one of those needless marketing lies..
    GdemamiKyleran

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,185
    Distopia said:
    Tiamat64 said:


    a) Caspian intentionally lied about the date, knowing it wasn't realistic, in order to inspire confidence to fund the project. Then, now after a safe time has passed, he released the real timeline, masked by this story of hiring woes. 

    b) Caspian really believed the project would be done in Dec 2017, and based the project on that timeframe. Then, 6 months before release has come to the sudden realization, it's going to take years longer. 

    Frankly, I'm not sure which is better?

    That's precisely it.  No matter which option is the case, it doesn't reflect very well on Caspian.  The same goes for a lot of other Kickstarter projects that end up getting delayed at the last moment, not that that stops particularly rabid fans.
    It's not just these guys doing that, it's just about every MMO type of crowdfunded product that has been guilty of this practice. They just about all offer a lowball number in terms of product availability. They almost all have later offered more realistic or indefinite (when it's ready) dates. It really makes no sense because most know those dates aren't realistic in the first place. It's just one of those needless marketing lies..
    I'm not sure any other developer was as arrogant as this guy though.  He literally mocked his customers when they dared question whether 18 months was a reasonable timeframe to make an MMORPG.  It's one thing to put a date out.  It takes it to another level when you act like a dick and try to belittle your own customers about it.


    WellspringKyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,735
    Kyleran said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    Wait what?
    You say "It's in the write up" OK, so it is... But then you say
    "Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you." So according to this post, I have a choice to believe a company that has proven what they say is questionable and if I don't, then the world is out to get me?

    You will have to pardon me if I stopped reading there.

    If you don't get it, I can't help you understand it. If you don't see some of what I'm talking about as blatant paranoia and not objectivity, then maybe you're part of the problem. Transparency is a great idea when you're dealing with someone other than a group of retarded people. 
    Really no worse than blind faith and willfully ignoring clear signs of warning. 

    Trust is earned by keeping one's word and meeting their commitments.


    First of all, no word was given. Second of all it's not blind faith at all. I just stated that the guy is attempting to be transparent with the community and once again that fails as people simply can't accept it as reality and it MUST be a scam of some sort. 

    The he one and only sign of warning that anyone should need at this point is the words "crowdfunding mmo". That doesn't mean they are not being evil or dishonest with their goals though. Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers! It's actually a bit hilarious. Lesson? Don't communicate shit to your community. It simply doesn't work. Tell them only what you eNt them to hear.
    Gdemami

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,185
    edited July 29
    CrazKanuk said:
     Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
    Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.

    One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved.  He also is generally a really likable guy.

    The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile.  Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.

    So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"

    PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy.  Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years.  Let me know how that goes.

    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    KyleranGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,236
    edited July 29
    CrazKanuk said:
    Kyleran said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Facts?  The Facts are that THEY launched a Kickstarter with a totally unrealistic date.  The FACTS are that THEY defended that date when challenged.  

    There are certainly people that can't handle facts and reality but it's certainly not the skeptics of this teams statements and timelines. 

    It's all in the write-up. They state exactly what the reasons were for their delays. Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you. In reality, the reason for things turning out the way they do is generally less "sexy" than what some choose to believe. I think that there were some good reasons given for delays. Some are actually, literally, moving timelines. Things like talent is massive! I've actually been helping out with a requisition since May! Like 2 and a half months and I have literally interviewed nobody! That's not even for a specialized position, either. If I were looking for someone with very specialized skills, then it could be even worse.

    Furthermore, if you made your own engine, you'd probably be convinced of it's greatness and how simple it is. In reality, engines are generally massive beasts that takes teams months to even understand. It's a prime reason that Project Copernicus is still sitting in a warehouse waiting for a buyer.

    These two factors alone are massive risks to the project. It's not about giving unrealistic dates as much as estimating something with the assumption that there are 10 of you (the knowledge expert) sitting in the room. I'm sure if there were 10 Caspian's working on this project from KS Day 1, it very well could have hit 2017. There's enough video evidence to support the idea that they had some systems in place, in various states of implementation, as early as PAX East 2016. Could these have been cobbled together to push out an Alpha at year end if they had resources to put the pieces together? Who knows! However, I don't think that it's, necessarily, unrealistic by intent, but by simply not knowing what they don't know. 

    There is a big difference between being skeptical and completely dismissing everything that you've been told and replacing it with your own reality. I can appreciate your skepticism. I'd even go as far as to agree with you that 2019 may still be a little optimistic. However, believing that there is some sort of nefarious, evil genius plot is afoot might be overdoing it a bit. 

    Wait what?
    You say "It's in the write up" OK, so it is... But then you say
    "Again, you can accept that, or believe that everyone in the world is out to get you." So according to this post, I have a choice to believe a company that has proven what they say is questionable and if I don't, then the world is out to get me?

    You will have to pardon me if I stopped reading there.

    If you don't get it, I can't help you understand it. If you don't see some of what I'm talking about as blatant paranoia and not objectivity, then maybe you're part of the problem. Transparency is a great idea when you're dealing with someone other than a group of retarded people. 
    Really no worse than blind faith and willfully ignoring clear signs of warning. 

    Trust is earned by keeping one's word and meeting their commitments.


    First of all, no word was given. Second of all it's not blind faith at all. I just stated that the guy is attempting to be transparent with the community and once again that fails as people simply can't accept it as reality and it MUST be a scam of some sort. 

    The he one and only sign of warning that anyone should need at this point is the words "crowdfunding mmo". That doesn't mean they are not being evil or dishonest with their goals though. Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers! It's actually a bit hilarious. Lesson? Don't communicate shit to your community. It simply doesn't work. Tell them only what you eNt them to hear.
    Now that is just not true. Slapshot posted Caspians arrogant response when people challenged his original estimates, belittling them for questioning his "deep knowledge" of secret development tricks to meet the schedule.

    I don't think it is or was a scam, I believe he was truly ignorant of what it really would take to deliver a MMO.  From this journal he even states after the recent hires he has a much better understanding of the task ahead which is a good thing. 

    He's also learned a few things about software project management, good to see though l still feel it is an aggressive, best case view but I understand, a PM who is forced to push a timeline out a long ways rarely promotes the longer views as management has a tendency to replace you and find someone else who promises them a rosier picture. 

    In this case managenent is the backers, he risks their ire and more importantly he risks not receiving additional funds which he clearly will need to meet the vision.

    Its true, MJ gets different treatment. He never promised unrealistic dates, and when he missed them he explained, apologized and went back to work.

    I myself have become more disenchanted as of late, after all of this time MJ continues to provide only progress updates against the timeline, when I feel its well past time for a proper schedule for beta and release as the cone of uncertainty should be fairly small by now. If he had proper corporate masters he would have had to done so by now.

    Transparency is great when done from the start and Caspians new revelation would be far better received if it came with some form of sincere apology for his former ignorant behavior which is what MJ would have done.




    Post edited by Kyleran on
    Slapshot1188GdemamiCrazKanuk

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,361
    Whatever happened to the one guy that used to come here and post hundreds of posts for this game, claiming he worked for them?
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Distopia said:
    Tiamat64 said:


    a) Caspian intentionally lied about the date, knowing it wasn't realistic, in order to inspire confidence to fund the project. Then, now after a safe time has passed, he released the real timeline, masked by this story of hiring woes. 

    b) Caspian really believed the project would be done in Dec 2017, and based the project on that timeframe. Then, 6 months before release has come to the sudden realization, it's going to take years longer. 

    Frankly, I'm not sure which is better?

    That's precisely it.  No matter which option is the case, it doesn't reflect very well on Caspian.  The same goes for a lot of other Kickstarter projects that end up getting delayed at the last moment, not that that stops particularly rabid fans.
    It's not just these guys doing that, it's just about every MMO type of crowdfunded product that has been guilty of this practice. They just about all offer a lowball number in terms of product availability. They almost all have later offered more realistic or indefinite (when it's ready) dates. It really makes no sense because most know those dates aren't realistic in the first place. It's just one of those needless marketing lies..
    I'm not sure any other developer was as arrogant as this guy though.  He literally mocked his customers when they dared question whether 18 months was a reasonable timeframe to make an MMORPG.  It's one thing to put a date out.  It takes it to another level when you act like a dick and try to belittle your own customers about it.


     I guess he took it as an insult to his self perceived abilities. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened, certainly won't be the last. 
    Gdemami

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Kyleran said:


    Transparency is great when done from the start and Caspians new revelation would be far better received if it came with some form of sincere apology for his former ignorant behavior which is what MJ would have done.




    That's the difference between someone who's spent years in an industry leading projects and someone who hasn't. This isn't something that's unusual in the indie scene/market, there are a lot of small time devs who haven't yet learned when it's best to bury the ego and just stfu and/or apologize. Veterans like MJ had to learn the value in that themselves at some point,  just like everyone else in the business world. At least anywhere you deal with the consumer directly.  
    Slapshot1188ShaighKyleran

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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