(theory) The MMO community overall is driving more and more people to want a solo only experience

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  • HarikenHariken Brighton, MAMember RarePosts: 1,695
    I used to know around 25 - 30 people that played mmo's back in 99/2000. Today of all those people maybe a few of them plays today and if they do it will be an old classic mmo. And i mean mmo's pre Wow. They all say the same thing " mmo player today suck". So if they get the itch they will login to games like DAOC of something like that because those games are filled with players that feel like they do about newer game communities.
    Kyleran
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,280
    Moirae said:
    Thats part of it but it isn't the whole part. The fact is that most rpg solo games are much much better than anything mmo's currently offer because they are willing to expand what they offer and try new things while MMO's are busy whining how it's getting harder to wow people with graphics instead. 

    most but not all. 

    For example, there is no action RPG with marvel characters except marvel heroes (unless you go back to the ancient MUA1 & 2). (well, i don't count mobile games ... )

    For example, there are few story driven sp game like The Secret World. 

    I wouldn't mind if these two are single player games, rather than MMOs. I play them as single player games. 
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 193
    edited August 8
    I disagree.  The games create the atmosphere.  If grouping is encouraged and rewarded, people are naturally going to be nicer to eachother (because they need them, just like in real life). 

    Recent MMOs do not do this.  You can't even trade in BDO and there is no group content.  BnS has nice group content, but it's all instanced and you warp to it, so by the time you could strike up a conversation, assuming you wanted to, the instance is over and you never see the other players again.

    In any case, I call total BS on any idea that "this new generation" is a bunch of good-for-nothings.  That's a theme that's persisted through history and has never been true.
    I agree. We might say MMO's are a "bunch of good-for-nothings," but that'd be throwing millions of players into the fire who happily gulp it down.

    On its surface, that suggests something's wrong with this generation. They're playing and subbing these MMO's. They deserve some of the blame, right? Alas, it's not the generation, instead It's several things. The most obvious is the huge growth in players between 1997 and now. The bulk of them are casual types and they expect MMO's to be "plug-and-play". It just so happens soloing is "plug-and-play" compliant more than grouping.

    You might then ask did nobody complain when there were MMO's like Everquest, with high group forcings? Why should the population in 1999 have no casuals, you asK? Oh there was plenty of them. And not all MMO's back then were equal. Ultima Online was older than Everqeust and it had a friendier solo environment with faster travelling--albiet with PvP until 2000 when Renaissance launched, adding a whole non-pvp continent. Players complained bitterly about it and fled to other MMO's if there were any encouraging signs. MMO's popped up one after the other for six years after Everquest launched. No matter what some people will say, this had a negative affect on Everquest's population. Players who started to hate camping and hell levels and so forth, believe me, they left. I remember one such person leaving to play Anarchy Online. Some stayed, despite constant bickering, if only for love.

    So what's happened is the industry grew by millons. The MMO designers figured out what should be their target audience. It wasn't immediately apparent. By the time WoW released, it was self-evident.

    The result is to find an MMO with high group forcings, in the veign of old Everquest, you're digging into very niche ground. This excludes all AAA as ignoring casuals is a death sentence. You must find a MMO with far smaller ambition. But this is no guarantee. Best choice is avoid commercial MMO's. Money is too strong a temptation.

    So you see? It's not generational. The same types of people exist now existed then. What's different is the industry grew and most of the added players are casual. It's part design, part nature. The reality is casuals are more common than others. Even before WoW, casuals were the most common, but MMO designers were still learning the ropes.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,764
    Personally I've never understood why people have such an issue with other people choosing to solo. I think the issue is when the game systems are really set up in a way that makes you feel forced to solo.

    Here are some reasons I choose to solo in MMOs:

    1. When I feel like other players are actually slowing me down from achieving my objectives.
    2. When I crunch the numbers and realize there is more reward in solo content after you calculate your chances of actually getting the drop you need.
    3. Because the people I want to play with are not in my level range.
    4. Because of difficulty in finding a group that fills all the needed roles.

    While I've gone on about the need to fix three (Just check my signature if you want a discussion on that) and implementing my suggested solutions for that would also help number 4 by giving a larger pool of players you can quest with, 1 and 2 are listed first for a reason.

    Those are my most frequent reasons to avoid grouping and there is really no justifiable reason for that in my mind. With the exclusion of flakes who keep going afk every 10 seconds grouping should be the fastest route to big rewards. But it rarely is, because the rewards just don't account for the extra hassle of having to find and put a group together and then coordinate your efforts. And so many of the rewards you do get for group content are RNG.

    And since the quests are braindead simple to complete having that extra person there to help you through quests can often slow you down more than it speeds you up as you rarely ever need help killing mobs.

    I don't want an MMO where "soloing isn't viable" or grouping is forced. I just want an MMO where groups help me more than they hinder me except in the cases where I am absolutely required to group to get something I need. I actually really enjoy grouping, I just always end up feeling like my group is holding me back.
    GhostRider00MadFrenchie
  • RaquisRaquis hartenbosMember UncommonPosts: 775
    I don't like single player games anymore i WANT to play with others!
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,280
    Eldurian said:
    Personally I've never understood why people have such an issue with other people choosing to solo. I think the issue is when the game systems are really set up in a way that makes you feel forced to solo.

    No one is forced to play any game .. and hence no one is forced to solo. You can always choose a game that needs group.
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member UncommonPosts: 267
    I watched this video where Richard Garriott says his new game is doing this thing called selective multiplayer and it's his new IP.  I lol'd for a couple reasons.  1. selective multiplayer isn't a new thing at all.  And 2.  selective mulitplayer is dumb.  I like options but too many play mode options in a game dilutes the experience and unbalances the shared mechanics.

    https://www.gamereactor.it/grtv/328083/Richard+Garriott+-+Masterclass+Creating+and+growing+games+IPs+-+Panel+Completo+Gamelab/

    In the example that is Shroud of the Avatar, it has multiple modes of game play but all modes share a single economy... and that sucks.  They even go so far as to make rules that basically state gold farmers should always use single player online mode for farming gold (because first and foremost, it's a RMT game).

    You go to a solo mode and farm unimpeded and then go to multi to trade and then back to solo to farm; it's retarded.  If you are the sort that likes that kind of game, that's great but people shouldn't think that's a MMO or a MMORPG... it's a sim for RMT and that's it.

    If you want a solo experience, find a great game that is designed for a solo experience.  If you want a multi experience with story arcs, find games that cater to that.  The MMO genre is being polluted by solo players that want all the coolness of a MMO (economy, trade, shared sandbox) without having to see anyone else.  That's stupid.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,442
    You're way to hung up on Garriott. You made a targeted rant thread veiled as a general topic and you obsess over every little thing. Move on. How about you take your own advice and don't tell other people how they want to play.

    If you think mmos are driving people to solo you're wrong. It's people like you who go OCD on crazy shit. Who in the hell wants to game with people like that? I want to game with people who are enjoying themselves not who go on and on about some petty soapbox rant.
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  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member UncommonPosts: 267
    Torval said:
    You're way to hung up on Garriott. You made a targeted rant thread veiled as a general topic and you obsess over every little thing. Move on. How about you take your own advice and don't tell other people how they want to play.

    If you think mmos are driving people to solo you're wrong. It's people like you who go OCD on crazy shit. Who in the hell wants to game with people like that? I want to game with people who are enjoying themselves not who go on and on about some petty soapbox rant.

    Actually, I don't think it's gamers that make games bad, I think it's game developers that go for quick cash instead of making truly great games.  Why on earth would a game developer want to make a mediocre swiss army knife for a game if not for the fast cash?  If game developers would make games that cater to a specific audience rather than trying to cater to all audiences, we gamers wouldn't as often find ourselves trying to redefine games.

    How's this for an aproach... market your game as a MMO if it's actually a MMO.  Market your game as a single player experience if that's what it is.
  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,806
    Eldurian said:
    Personally I've never understood why people have such an issue with other people choosing to solo. I think the issue is when the game systems are really set up in a way that makes you feel forced to solo.

    <snip>

    For myself, I dislike when others solo in group oriented games for one reason.  For every person who chooses to solo, that's one less person I can group with.  With simple raw numbers, if a server has 1000 logged in, that's a maximum of 166 6-man groups that can be formed.  If 400 chose to solo, that means only 100 groups can be formed, and if 700 are soloing, only 50 groups can be formed.  At some point those soloing hurts the ability of those who choose to group to actually form a group.  It indirectly affects other players.

    This doesn't consider other factors, such as levels and classes.  Those elements affect the ability to grouping also.  If a group doesn't have a needed class to fulfill a specific role (healer or tank are most common), the remainder of that group is essentially non-functional.  If the level distribution isn't equal across all levels, some level groups may have difficulty forming groups.  When players wanting a group have no group to join, a large portion of the game's population is limited to solo activities -- traveling, socializing, crafting, managing inventory, trading, etc.

    I do solo in most games these days.  And I actually agree with many of the points @Eldurian makes.  I'm just unable to play for 2-3 hours at a stretch these days and spending what time I do have trying to find a group just isn't satisfying.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SubilacSubilac Homestead, FLMember UncommonPosts: 32
    I think back to the beginning, EQ 1. Tons of players, all new to MMO's, running around East Commonlands huddled in the cave being a community. If I remember correctly, the only way to start leveling up was to group for orcs. There, I met dozens of people who I am still friends with irl. Since those days, I have played probably 20 different games, and not one gives me that "feel". WoW a little bit in the beginning. I am now playing ESO which I love, but it's practically  a solo game. I really miss the tight guilds, and people being on 24/7 who you enjoyed playing with. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,280

    For myself, I dislike when others solo in group oriented games for one reason.  For every person who chooses to solo, that's one less person I can group with. 
    lol .. no one is obligated to group with you. If you cannot attract people to play with you, it is your problem.

    Sure, you dislike it .. but why would any other gamer cares about your problem?
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,764
    edited August 8
    Mendel said:

    For myself, I dislike when others solo in group oriented games for one reason.  For every person who chooses to solo, that's one less person I can group with. 
    And that's why I don't get the argument. If people prefer solo content, and the game forces them into group content, do you think you'll actually have more people to group with?

    Think of a type of content you don't enjoy. If the game forced you to participate in this type of content to be viable, would you? I'm guessing that answer is. "No, I would find another game."

    Same thing for forced grouping and removing solo viable content. If there are 1000 people logged in, and 400 choose to solo (Probably more like 700-900 in most games to be honest) and you take the stick approach of making soloing non-viable and forcing grouping, you're probably just going to lose 400 players, not helping your problem, and hurting the games revenue / ability to deliver new content and updates.

    But like I said. I actually enjoy grouping. It's not that I don't group because I'm anti-social. I don't group because I feel forced along a path of quick progression to get to what I want (PvP), and generally the process of grouping slows that progression down. Especially with PUGs. Most of the time when I do choose to group it's with guildies and allies.

    If the rewards were something more worthwhile then some RNG gear that I will replace in 5 levels anyway, and the quests were set up in such a way that having other players improved my ability to level, well then... that would change everything. At that point, I would choose to group up.

    Or if I could bypass the progression entirely and go straight to the content I want, that content is small group open world PvP. So that would have me grouping on day 1.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • azurreiazurrei Member UncommonPosts: 302
    Personally, my dream MMORPG would have all (or nearly all) content scale-able from 1 to X players.  I don't want a solo only experience but I don't want to be forced into 4-5++ player groups to do all the relevant high end content.  I want the choice to do it alone, do it with a friend or two, or party up with a bunch of server community / guild members. 
    Iselinimmodium
  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Member UncommonPosts: 1,308
    This kinda relates to my previous thread about forced grouping/soloing. But a slightly. different subject (though the beginning of this post overlaps with my previous thread).

    So I'll talk about Asheron's Call. The community in that game (on Morningthaw, on Darktide it was crap so I avoided that server) was very good except for the PvP server (which is NOT part of the discussion). Every PVE/optional PvP servers had great communities in AC. While people could solo EVERYTHING, and in some ways that was more optimal...however people often randomly joined groups, chatted with each other, helped each other and were very friendly. In fact, Asheron's Call had a more, friendlier and helpful community than Everquest 1 which pretty much forced grouping. In AC people grouped to help others, to socialize and have a lot of fun together.

    So where am I going with that?...Well...

    Go to todays community. Its 4chan style trolling, rude people, leeroy jenkin wannabees, loot stealers and people using each other to get ahead of the game. The main reason people group these days is for selfish reasons, and would otherwise not group if they could. Which in Asheron's Call people ALWAYS grouped even though soloing was very viable, because people wanted to actually group and were overall friendly. Even friendlier MMOs like LOTRO are nowhere near as good as MMOs of old. Then there are the more niche MMOs like Ryzom and Istaria/Horizons (the dragon MMO) which are closed off communities that with the little players they have act very elitist and rude.

    But that actually goes to society of today (at least in the US). Today people is only I, I and I, and very rarely do people help others unless they get something out of it. And if they do help, they get sued. Why would people want to play with others that are so rude and selfish like that? That goes back to MMOs.

    The MMO community overall has become VERY toxic, very rude, trolls and memes galore and really selfish. Most people won't even group unless they are forced to do so, making it a selfish reason. I grouped all the time in Asheron's Call even though I could do everything on my own. 

    A good example of this is in EVE. There was a story on PCgamer (recently) of a guy who spent 1+ year becoming great "friends" with a corp (it was a pirate corp), but it turns out he only wanted to steal all their stuff and sabotage them from within. I'd never want to group with someone like that or even associate myself with such a sociopath. He didn't even care about the friendships he made. And that is true for a lot of MMO gamers these days, they are more than glad to move on from an MMO than stay where their long time friends are.

    In Asheron's Call, friendships lasted for decades and many would stay because of those friendships and even keep in contact years later. These days, if a group of friends quit an MMO that you've had for years, people just say "find new friends". Communities of old never acted like that, but that is how things are in real life these days in society. 

    I believe that is why so many people prefer to just solo these days and not group. That is a big reason I don't group, because why would I want to associate or even socialize with such rude people that don't even care about others and if I unsubbed they wouldn't care at all even if they'd been friends for years? That isn't how old MMO communities were (at least for Asheron's Call). 

    To end it off...there ARE good groups and guilds out there. But they are far harder to find than how MMOs communities used to be. And one of the huge reasons people (my theory anyway) don't like grouping nearly as much as they used to and only do it if they are forced to do so. Because most people don't actually want to associate or socialize with such rude and immature people that are actually using them to get ahead or some endgame item.


    I was there in the early days of Asherons Call, infact i played it till they shut it down. and there was still tons of cool people willing to help each other out to just enjoy the game. Best game i ever played hands down, i met people in that game i still talk to today from across the world.

    but when AC was in its glory days MMO's were not main stream, so there was not near as many people playing them. and when you add the masses to anything the IQ level quickly drops.

    These days its " cool " to troll people and its not cool to try at anything. or your a " try hard ".
    and the most sad part of this? most of these people are adults acting like this.

    In the AC days people who acted like that where black balled from doing the high end content with others. nobody would trade with them, or deal with them at all. they either made a new character and changed how they acted or delt with being a outsider.

    Now there is entire clans of people like that.
  • renstarensta Bat-YamMember UncommonPosts: 469
    I think people don't value the real importance of a vpp server... Once yuy have a pvp server, most trolls will join that server, leaving the pvp much cleaner. 

    image


    Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,804
    The game rewards you more for soling then running PUGs.

    Speed running soloquests is by the far quickest way to level so more and more people play that way.

    As for the loot stealing it depends on antiquated mechanics, it should not be possible anyways. But sure, larger severs and even megaservers together with random PUGing mechanics means many jerks don't have to play nice anymore. In the old days they behaved or their reputation on the server made grouping impossible.

    I dunno why there seems to be more trolls today, might be because the old games had more GMs and people reported such behavior better then or maybe it is because the entire internet etiquette seems to have gone downwards the last 15 years.

    When we started to play MMOs were a small niche genre and that might influence people as well.

    But the main reason is that people are lazy and greedy and play the way that gives out most XP for an hours play, now it is at least twice as fast to speedrun soloquests then doing dungeons with far less risk of failure. If things were the other way around far more people would group, in fact when they changed it around 2008 grouping went down fast.

    Now people just group for powerlevel those soloquests even faster or for the endgame. The endgame though have little soloing and all the good gear are in dungeons and raids so people getting there start to group (not always with great result since many of them never learned the group mechanics).
    Gdemami
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Grah, ALMember RarePosts: 1,038
    "why are my groups always so toxic?"

    -half naked tank
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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,542
    edited August 9
    Back then, around year 2000, Internet access was still quite "confidential" in most countries, and MMORPGs are played by nerds and fans who were also for most quite literate and computer savvy, and also for most had a real passion for the genre.

    But after 2000, Internet access became easier to get very quickly, cheaper too, broadband arrived in most country (DSL). New players joined those games, who just play MMORPGs like they play some console game and who don't care about the RP element. This includes a lot of less literate people, and of course also a lot of rude kiddies.

    I agree with you that the EQ model and its forced grouping favors selfishness from players. And most of today's MMORPGs are based on the EQ model. It doesn't stop one from making friends, I have met people in WoW who are now real life friends, but in that EQ model, people tend to stick to their guild because outside of it, they have too big of a chance to end with assholes or immatures.

    In AC1, there were quest leaders who were regularly organizing server wide events, Aerfalle runs for instance. Guilds weren't that important, everyone knew everyone on the server. That is also no longer possible nowadays with that "megaserver" system all games have embraced.

    There are still a few AAA games that are not too much into that EQ style cloning though. GW2, BDO and ESO come to my mind.

    TLDR:

    1) Games today are almost all of the "EQ forced grouping endgame raid or die" style, encouraging selfish player behavior. In PUGs, people no longer group for fun, they group for profit, and they tend to do little outside of their guild. This was already present in EQ back in the days, but was made much worse by point 3 described below.
    2) The communities have changed. Internet is more accessible, every moron and kid has a permanent access to it, making the average level of the online communities drop drastically.
    3) "Megaservers" made communities so huge that it's no longer possible to know everyone on your server like it was back in the first MMOs (UO, AC1 and even EQ). This favors even more the behavior described in point 1.
    Post edited by Jean-Luc_Picard on
    Azaron_NightbladeKyleranskadadGdemamiMendelTorval
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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthMember EpicPosts: 4,223

    In AC1, there were quest leaders who were regularly organizing server wide events, Aerfalle runs for instance. Guilds weren't that important, everyone knew everyone on the server. That is also no longer possible nowadays with that "megaserver" system all games have embraced.
    Reminds me of City of Heroes, where it was usually the same people organizing the Hamidon "raid" each week. It was also one of the better group experiences I've had on an MMO. People teamed often, and with the adjustable difficulty sliders, it was easy to customize the challenge level for your group. No shitty loot rolls either, which has always been the downfall of games like WoW, where you get at least a few ninja looters a day if you use the groupfinder frequently.

    It seems devs have started wising up to the latter though. NWO at least partially did away with the rolling on loot (compared to the carbon copy of WoW's loot system that they used initially), and SWL also has individual loot. Can't trust the player base not to go grab any chance they can get to ruin other people's day. Which should be a golden rule for devs to keep in mind. :P

    The many posts on this thread also make a fine example of that particular trend lol.
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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,542
    Can't trust the player base not to go grab any chance they can get to ruin other people's day. Which should be a golden rule for devs to keep in mind. :P
    A part of the player base going out of their way to ruin others fun isn't new, it already existed in UO 20+ years ago. But back then, you quickly earned a bad reputation on your server and you could rapidly end in trouble, alone, without anyone wanting to craft for you or sell you anything, and also on PvP worlds hunted down by other players.

    But nowadays you have many ways to escape a bad reputation:
    - Megaservers and/or server change services.
    - Random automatic grouping (looking for group).
    - Name change services.
    - Anonymous auction house.

    So even if a player really acts like a jerk, gets kicked from several guilds, and ends being unwanted in all groups, he has always several ways to reset that bad reputation or just ignore it.

    PS: WoW also has personal loot now btw.
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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthMember EpicPosts: 4,223
    Can't trust the player base not to go grab any chance they can get to ruin other people's day. Which should be a golden rule for devs to keep in mind. :P
    A part of the player base going out of their way to ruin others fun isn't new, it already existed in UO 20+ years ago. But back then, you quickly earned a bad reputation on your server and you could rapidly end in trouble, alone, without anyone wanting to craft for you or sell you anything, and also on PvP worlds hunted down by other players.

    But nowadays you have many ways to escape a bad reputation:
    - Megaservers and/or server change services.
    - Random automatic grouping (looking for group).
    - Name change services.
    - Anonymous auction house.

    So even if a player really acts like a jerk, gets kicked from several guilds, and ends being unwanted in all groups, he has always several ways to reset that bad reputation or just ignore it.

    PS: WoW also has personal loot now btw.
    Yeah, zero accountability helps that attitude flourish. As for WoW, I haven't touched it since MoP, but I'm not surprised to hear they implemented that. Blizzard's taken a lot of measures over the years to reign in crappy behavior. Hearthstone and HoS both had their share of restrictions to try to keep the toxicity down.
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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,804
    PS: WoW also has personal loot now btw.
    Really? Took them some time to add that, one would have thought they would have put it in at the same time they borrowed instanced PvP from GW around 2006 (or we can say they were inspired by it if that sound better to you).

    It does help a lot, when people can ninja there is always someone that does and when many people get ninjad enough times they start as well.

    If you just group with your guild there rarely is a problem but need and greed never really worked in PUGs and with random cross server PUGs the problem get a lot worse.
  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIMember RarePosts: 2,872
    Loke666 said:
    PS: WoW also has personal loot now btw.
    Really? Took them some time to add that, one would have thought they would have put it in at the same time they borrowed instanced PvP from GW around 2006 (or we can say they were inspired by it if that sound better to you).
    WoW borrowed instanced PvP from Guild Wars?!

    What the heck are you talking about?

    Battlegrounds were mentioned in the instruction manual for WoW when it released in November 2004 and released in June 2005. Guild Wars released in April 2005.

    So ...Blizzard played GW, became inspired by its instanced PvP and implemented it into WoW all with the span of 2 months? Thats you're saying?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,280
    DrunkWolf said:


    These days its " cool " to troll people and its not cool to try at anything. or your a " try hard ".
    and the most sad part of this? most of these people are adults acting like this.

    You can always vote-kick them. We are talking about games here. There is no reason why people cannot take the entertainment the way they like.
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