i had some good times in WAR. there are alot worse games still around i'll say that. they didn't play when it came to shutting that game down either it was like "well this ain't no WOW killer...pull the plug" i think if they could have delivered on what they promised (remember all those promo videos with the loud brit) then the game could have been a success. their biggest selling point city sieges was just god awful but i still think maybe to this day the goblin shaman...one of the best classes ever.
Warhammer is such a great IP for an MMO it would be a shame if someone else didn't give it a try. Are there any rumors out there? Legally speaking, do you think it would even be possible? I suppose Games Workshop could license out the rights again? If EA/Mythic threw the game away...do they still have exclusivity rights to a warhammer MMO?
EA licensed the IP from Games Workshop. After 5 years after release EA opted NOT to extend the license and WH closed. So nothing to stop GW licensing the rights again.
Usually restrictions that exist simply stop another company coming in and simply reusing previous stuff e.g. quests or lifting artwork directly. (May not apply to stuff that GW might have provided).
The terms should have been spelt out in the agreement. So think SoE's SWG and EA's SWTOR. Same IP but "different" games.
I never understood the hate the game got. The art was great, the design concept was good, the classes were some of the most interesting and well designed in any MMO to date, it had tons of great innovations that are now bog standard in pretty much every MMO, and it was just fun.
All of that outweighs the bugs, poor balance, lack of content development and endless renown/gear grind to stay competitive.
It had its flaws, but at the end of the day it was one of the better MMOs I've played.
Whilst it had some great ideas, the core gameplay just wasn't fun for most people.
Power gaps - the game just sucked for most people due to horrendous power gaps. Tier 1 was fine whilst we were all noobs. tier 2 and 3 got steadily worse. tier 4 was a joke until you'd been grinding for long enough to reach RR60ish.
Grouping - the combat system was designed for groups, so if you were solo (which most were) you just got your ass handed to you (talking pvp).
Keep Sieges sucked - if you were ranged, you could pew-pew for a while, but for melee it sucked. Get ram - wait for ram - door opens, 30s of fighting - get another ram - wait for ram - inner door opens - 30s fighting. Once you got over the novelty of a keep siege, they were just boring for melee.
PvE sucked - yeh, i know its a pvp game, but it was advertised as both so many people disappointed. I enjoy both so wanted to see both, but every second I spent in pve put me at a disadvantage, so eventually just stopped.
Loot drops sucked - randomised loot, uggh. My friends and I tried to get gear from both pve and pvp, but too often we'd go through something like Bilerot Burrows, kill everything, only to leave empty handed because all loot drops were for classes we didn't have with us.
Crap engine - a large scale pvp game that couldn't handle large scale battles. First fortress fight we had, we crashed the server. Same with the second and third, so they turned off fortresses for a few months.
So, in short, for the average gamer, the minute-to-minute fun was just lacking. If you got into a premade for scenarios, or a premade raid for world pvp, sure, it was great fun, but outside of those two activities it was just a painful experience.
I don't know what game your were playing. Almost all of that was different from my experience.
1 Power gaps - I already mentioned that as an issue. It wasn't unique to WAR though, as games before it (WoW) and after it (Rift) had a huge endgame grind for PvP competitive gear. It was a genre wide flaw, not just a WAR flaw.
2 Grouping - yes in a group oriented game built around RvR you are going to balance around groups and not solo. That's just common sense.
3 Keep sieges sucked - that was not my experience at all. Many sieges lasted for an hour or more after the gates came down. Unless numbers were massively lobsided, each side would frequently wipe multiple times before the siege was decided.
4 PvE sucked - It wasn't great, but it was respectable. I leveled several underpowered classes for fun with just PvE doing PQs and dungeons. Not doing the PvE meant missing most of the amazing Warhammer world that the whole game is centered on. Falling behind in RR from PvEing was a legitimate problem for people who wanted to do the whole game on one character though.
5 Loot drops sucked - welcome to every MMO of that era. Many a WoW raid ended with gear being disenchanted because nobody wanted it.
6 Crap engine - or crap computer. I played on a laptop and could play with respectable lag and FPS in anything under 48v48. In the more typical warband v warband it ran very smoothly.
Nobody would fund it at this point and even if they did the genre is dying. Blizzard pretty much stole their thunder with the Warcraft IP anyway.
The problem is that any licensed property is going to take longer to develop, and have lots of compromises due to the approval process.
Blizzard avoided this by making their own IP and ditching their initial
plans of making Warcraft 1 a Warhammer based game. They learned their
lesson after working with DC on a fighter game and never reached the point of trying to sign a contract with GW.
Warhammer titles are best made with very specific scopes and not massive endeavors like traditional MMOs. I think it would be smarter to make a single player Skyrim type of game firstanyway. WH just isn't a big enough IP for PC gamers yet. It worked great in TW:WH because it was CA's first non historic title but it didn't need to be a completely different type of game for them.
I don't know what game your were playing. Almost all of that was different from my experience.
1 Power gaps - I already mentioned that as an issue. It wasn't unique to WAR though, as games before it (WoW) and after it (Rift) had a huge endgame grind for PvP competitive gear. It was a genre wide flaw, not just a WAR flaw.
2 Grouping - yes in a group oriented game built around RvR you are going to balance around groups and not solo. That's just common sense.
3 Keep sieges sucked - that was not my experience at all. Many sieges lasted for an hour or more after the gates came down. Unless numbers were massively lobsided, each side would frequently wipe multiple times before the siege was decided.
4 PvE sucked - It wasn't great, but it was respectable. I leveled several underpowered classes for fun with just PvE doing PQs and dungeons. Not doing the PvE meant missing most of the amazing Warhammer world that the whole game is centered on. Falling behind in RR from PvEing was a legitimate problem for people who wanted to do the whole game on one character though.
5 Loot drops sucked - welcome to every MMO of that era. Many a WoW raid ended with gear being disenchanted because nobody wanted it.
6 Crap engine - or crap computer. I played on a laptop and could play with respectable lag and FPS in anything under 48v48. In the more typical warband v warband it ran very smoothly.
1. I realise power gaps aren't unique to WAR, I'm aware that they are a problem genre wide. But, its a pvp game, the very sort of game where power gaps need to be kept to a minimum, yet EAMythic made them worse than most games I'd ever played. PvP games rely on new blood joining, yet power gaps make the new player experience terrible.
2. I have no problem with the game being group focused as I am a group focused player. I was guild leader in WAR so rarely had a problem finding / creating a group. However, the MMO genre is populated by a lot of solo orientated players. Many developers have stated that the bulk of their income from the casual solo crowd. We were asked why WAR failed, and this is a big reason - it alienated the largest market segment.
3. Perhaps just different experiences. I played a Blorc on Karak Azgal (EU). When attacking during a siege, all I could do was man the ram (hard as most spots taken straight away), stand in front of the RDPS and channel the parry buff, or head round the side to take on reinforcements. Only the reinforcements bit was fun, but too often there would be so many of us doing the same that it would be dull. Only time it was fun as an attacker was if the defenders counter attacked, or when the doors came down. But, in a standard keep siege (15 minutes), I'd be lucky to have 2 minutes of actual pvp. As a defender, things were even worse until the inner door came down. I did really enjoy creating a tank wall behind doors or on the keep ramps. But, it'd be a long wait to get there and I had to hope the other tanks didn't lose their bottle.
4. I was one who wanted to see the whole game as I love the lore, but also my guild had a healthy mix of pve and pvp players. I did enjoy the world building but I primarily just did the dwarf vs orc zones in order to balance pvp and pve levels. However, the depth of the combat system only came out in pvp due to the high amount of CC - in pve, everything was basically tank and spank so very dull.
5. I know loot used to suck, but I'd come from LotRO where raid drops were, for the most part, tokens that you exchanged for gear. The only time stuff went to waste was when everyone already had stuff. I couldn't believe how shit the loot rules were in WAR - it was 2010, why on earth would you create a loot system that can result in an entire wasted evening? I mean, at least make sure the drops are for a relevant class in your group!
6. The game was designed for large scale battles - it ran fine on my machine in 48v48 too. But, on my server, it was very common to have 200+ in a single pvp lake. For the first few months, 300+ keep sieges were a nightly occurrence. But, it lagged out for everyone. It boggles the mind that you would build a game with a game engine that can't even support your core gameplay.
As mentioned, I did actually enjoy WAR myself and thought it had some great features. However, you said you didn't understand the hate the game got and these are all valid reasons, even if they don't apply to you (or me) as an individual.
I personally quit WAR due to a combination of the power gap issue and shrinking playerbase. So many people hated the game so the churn rate was atrocious. Nearly every guild had to constantly recruit to replace members but it was impossible as new blood wasn't coming in. In the 6 months following launch, my guild merged with 3 others and we still struggled to field a full 24man raid. There were maybe 4 or 5 guilds on my server that didn't struggle with members as they were the top guilds, but every other guild felt the pain. Eventually I just got tired of constantly watching my friends leave. Combined with the stupid power gaps, I just gave up.
I did come back about a year later once they release the land of the dead. By that point, they'd changed the way gear dropped (just buy it with gold) and drastically increased the renown gains for lower ranked players. It made a huge difference as it meant leveling and gearing was so much quicker, so you could overcome the power gap very quickly. Think I was in full sovereign within 1 month of returning. Sadly, by that point, server population was pretty low so whilst it was still fun, scenario queues were long and generally only one pvp lake at a time was populated, so I didn't last long.
There was a lot about Warhammer Online I enjoyed. But I didn't enjoy it because it was Warhammer. I just enjoyed it for being a fun fantasy based MMO with a Warhammer wrapper around it.
I think that when a game uses a loved IP that it's pretty much doomed to failure unless it's near perfect. An original IP lets a game be anything it wants to be and it's ok. A well known IP, every little bit that's not exactly like the books/rpg/movie/etc gets ripped to shreds by the IPs most hardcore fans.
And that idea kind of saddens me. You'd think the hardcore fans of an IP would do everything they could to experience a piece of their favorite IP, whether it was perfect or not.
You have two types of fans though.
1. "Ohhh, I'm a HUGE fan of <something>! It would be so awesome if I could play a game about <something>! If I could play <some type of character> from <something> it would be a dream come true!"
Insert game that has a lot right about <something> but also a lot wrong about <something> and...
"That game is CRAP! It's a complete betrayal of what <something> is about! I'm going to spread negativity about this game to every website in the world!"
2. "Ohh, they're making a game about <something>! <something> is so cool! I wonder if I'll be able to play as <some type of character> from <something>. That'd be awesome!"
Insert game that has a lot right about <something> but also a lot wrong about <something> and...
"Man this is so cool running around in <something>! I don't remember <something arbitrary> being exactly like that in the books but it's still freaking cool. It's like they expanded the universe a tad as if the original story wasn't set in stone and completely stagnant. Neat! I'm going to tell a couple friends to join me!"
And *poof* there goes the chance of a fun game getting money to improve.
Obviously that's not the full story on what happens with every failed game, but if you've been on the internet you know this happens and that it IS a factor to some degree.
Warhammer is such a great IP for an MMO it would be a shame if someone else didn't give it a try. Are there any rumors out there? Legally speaking, do you think it would even be possible? I suppose Games Workshop could license out the rights again? If EA/Mythic threw the game away...do they still have exclusivity rights to a warhammer MMO?
Warhammer has had some GREAT games come out lately under its name, Warhammer End Times: Vermintide is great, Total War: Warhammer could be game of the year. It would be nice to see, finally, a successful MMO with the Warhammer IP.
The WarHammer IP is so much better than that of WarCraft. WarHammer's lore is a lot deeper. There are tons of stories and timelines to choose from. I'd love a good WarHammer MMO. Or even WarHammer 40K. They'd have to be done right though. And be true to the dark,gritty,mature, setting. Lately I've been playing WarHammer 40k Inquisitor: Martyr. An expansion for it, called "Prophecy" came out for it fairly recently, but I haven't gotten it yet. It's a decent game. It's much more interesting than Diablo 3. And the combat is much more satisfying.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Warhammer Online was the best ever PvP MMO after DAOC. There was a F2P version in the works, but EA/Mythic lost the license and had to shut down the game.
Comments
Usually restrictions that exist simply stop another company coming in and simply reusing previous stuff e.g. quests or lifting artwork directly. (May not apply to stuff that GW might have provided).
The terms should have been spelt out in the agreement. So think SoE's SWG and EA's SWTOR. Same IP but "different" games.
1 Power gaps - I already mentioned that as an issue. It wasn't unique to WAR though, as games before it (WoW) and after it (Rift) had a huge endgame grind for PvP competitive gear. It was a genre wide flaw, not just a WAR flaw.
2 Grouping - yes in a group oriented game built around RvR you are going to balance around groups and not solo. That's just common sense.
3 Keep sieges sucked - that was not my experience at all. Many sieges lasted for an hour or more after the gates came down. Unless numbers were massively lobsided, each side would frequently wipe multiple times before the siege was decided.
4 PvE sucked - It wasn't great, but it was respectable. I leveled several underpowered classes for fun with just PvE doing PQs and dungeons. Not doing the PvE meant missing most of the amazing Warhammer world that the whole game is centered on. Falling behind in RR from PvEing was a legitimate problem for people who wanted to do the whole game on one character though.
5 Loot drops sucked - welcome to every MMO of that era. Many a WoW raid ended with gear being disenchanted because nobody wanted it.
6 Crap engine - or crap computer. I played on a laptop and could play with respectable lag and FPS in anything under 48v48. In the more typical warband v warband it ran very smoothly.
The problem is that any licensed property is going to take longer to develop, and have lots of compromises due to the approval process. Blizzard avoided this by making their own IP and ditching their initial plans of making Warcraft 1 a Warhammer based game. They learned their lesson after working with DC on a fighter game and never reached the point of trying to sign a contract with GW.
Warhammer titles are best made with very specific scopes and not massive endeavors like traditional MMOs. I think it would be smarter to make a single player Skyrim type of game first anyway. WH just isn't a big enough IP for PC gamers yet. It worked great in TW:WH because it was CA's first non historic title but it didn't need to be a completely different type of game for them.
2. I have no problem with the game being group focused as I am a group focused player. I was guild leader in WAR so rarely had a problem finding / creating a group. However, the MMO genre is populated by a lot of solo orientated players. Many developers have stated that the bulk of their income from the casual solo crowd. We were asked why WAR failed, and this is a big reason - it alienated the largest market segment.
3. Perhaps just different experiences. I played a Blorc on Karak Azgal (EU). When attacking during a siege, all I could do was man the ram (hard as most spots taken straight away), stand in front of the RDPS and channel the parry buff, or head round the side to take on reinforcements. Only the reinforcements bit was fun, but too often there would be so many of us doing the same that it would be dull. Only time it was fun as an attacker was if the defenders counter attacked, or when the doors came down. But, in a standard keep siege (15 minutes), I'd be lucky to have 2 minutes of actual pvp. As a defender, things were even worse until the inner door came down. I did really enjoy creating a tank wall behind doors or on the keep ramps. But, it'd be a long wait to get there and I had to hope the other tanks didn't lose their bottle.
4. I was one who wanted to see the whole game as I love the lore, but also my guild had a healthy mix of pve and pvp players. I did enjoy the world building but I primarily just did the dwarf vs orc zones in order to balance pvp and pve levels. However, the depth of the combat system only came out in pvp due to the high amount of CC - in pve, everything was basically tank and spank so very dull.
5. I know loot used to suck, but I'd come from LotRO where raid drops were, for the most part, tokens that you exchanged for gear. The only time stuff went to waste was when everyone already had stuff. I couldn't believe how shit the loot rules were in WAR - it was 2010, why on earth would you create a loot system that can result in an entire wasted evening? I mean, at least make sure the drops are for a relevant class in your group!
6. The game was designed for large scale battles - it ran fine on my machine in 48v48 too. But, on my server, it was very common to have 200+ in a single pvp lake. For the first few months, 300+ keep sieges were a nightly occurrence. But, it lagged out for everyone. It boggles the mind that you would build a game with a game engine that can't even support your core gameplay.
As mentioned, I did actually enjoy WAR myself and thought it had some great features. However, you said you didn't understand the hate the game got and these are all valid reasons, even if they don't apply to you (or me) as an individual.
I personally quit WAR due to a combination of the power gap issue and shrinking playerbase. So many people hated the game so the churn rate was atrocious. Nearly every guild had to constantly recruit to replace members but it was impossible as new blood wasn't coming in. In the 6 months following launch, my guild merged with 3 others and we still struggled to field a full 24man raid. There were maybe 4 or 5 guilds on my server that didn't struggle with members as they were the top guilds, but every other guild felt the pain. Eventually I just got tired of constantly watching my friends leave. Combined with the stupid power gaps, I just gave up.
I did come back about a year later once they release the land of the dead. By that point, they'd changed the way gear dropped (just buy it with gold) and drastically increased the renown gains for lower ranked players. It made a huge difference as it meant leveling and gearing was so much quicker, so you could overcome the power gap very quickly. Think I was in full sovereign within 1 month of returning. Sadly, by that point, server population was pretty low so whilst it was still fun, scenario queues were long and generally only one pvp lake at a time was populated, so I didn't last long.
I think that when a game uses a loved IP that it's pretty much doomed to failure unless it's near perfect. An original IP lets a game be anything it wants to be and it's ok. A well known IP, every little bit that's not exactly like the books/rpg/movie/etc gets ripped to shreds by the IPs most hardcore fans.
And that idea kind of saddens me. You'd think the hardcore fans of an IP would do everything they could to experience a piece of their favorite IP, whether it was perfect or not.
You have two types of fans though.
1. "Ohhh, I'm a HUGE fan of <something>! It would be so awesome if I could play a game about <something>! If I could play <some type of character> from <something> it would be a dream come true!"
Insert game that has a lot right about <something> but also a lot wrong about <something> and...
"That game is CRAP! It's a complete betrayal of what <something> is about! I'm going to spread negativity about this game to every website in the world!"
2. "Ohh, they're making a game about <something>! <something> is so cool! I wonder if I'll be able to play as <some type of character> from <something>. That'd be awesome!"
Insert game that has a lot right about <something> but also a lot wrong about <something> and...
"Man this is so cool running around in <something>! I don't remember <something arbitrary> being exactly like that in the books but it's still freaking cool. It's like they expanded the universe a tad as if the original story wasn't set in stone and completely stagnant. Neat! I'm going to tell a couple friends to join me!"
And *poof* there goes the chance of a fun game getting money to improve.
Obviously that's not the full story on what happens with every failed game, but if you've been on the internet you know this happens and that it IS a factor to some degree.
You hope not? Why? Someone forcing you to play it?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests