Will Warhammer Fantasy ever get another MMO?

ZigZagsZigZags CaliforniaMember UncommonPosts: 370
Warhammer is such a great IP for an MMO it would be a shame if someone else didn't give it a try. Are there any rumors out there? Legally speaking, do you think it would even be possible? I suppose Games Workshop could license out the rights again? If EA/Mythic threw the game away...do they still have exclusivity rights to a warhammer MMO? 

Warhammer has had some GREAT games come out lately under its name, Warhammer End Times: Vermintide is great, Total War: Warhammer could be game of the year. It would be nice to see, finally, a successful MMO with the Warhammer IP. 


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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,909
    Lets not, they would just mess it up once again.

    Warhammer fantasy RPG have my favorite campaign ever: The enemy within. The game is full of grit and dark humor, it uses a low powergap with interesting and tactical combat (talking about the original game, not Fantasy flight games fail of a new edition). I love Warhammer fantasy RPG, and I still use the 1st edition.

    I don't think I can take another crappy version made by someone who never played the P&P game. Warhammers world is not child friendly, filled with dark horror, drugs, gore, violence and corruption. Whenever someone wants to turn an IP like that into a MMO they take away that stuff.

    It would be better to use an IP like Dragonlance, it is kid friendlier, made to work with levels and easier to get for a none fan.
    AethaerynRelampago
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,120
    Loke666 said:
    Lets not, they would just mess it up once again.

    Warhammer fantasy RPG have my favorite campaign ever: The enemy within. The game is full of grit and dark humor, it uses a low powergap with interesting and tactical combat (talking about the original game, not Fantasy flight games fail of a new edition). I love Warhammer fantasy RPG, and I still use the 1st edition.

    I don't think I can take another crappy version made by someone who never played the P&P game. Warhammers world is not child friendly, filled with dark horror, drugs, gore, violence and corruption. Whenever someone wants to turn an IP like that into a MMO they take away that stuff.

    It would be better to use an IP like Dragonlance, it is kid friendlier, made to work with levels and easier to get for a none fan.
    Yeah, the IP is amazing, but every game ever created under the IP has sucked ass.
    Scorchien

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  • ZigZagsZigZags CaliforniaMember UncommonPosts: 370
    Yeah, the IP is amazing, but every game ever created under the IP has sucked ass.
    Dude. Warhammer Vermintide is great and Warhammer Total War could be game of the year.
    DistopiaCecropianatpickHatefullmgilbrtsnScorchienGorwe

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  • HatefullHatefull Member RarePosts: 1,473
    I am pretty sure that EA did not ever have exclusive rights to the WH IP. 

      The biggest issue with EA doing anything with MMO's is that the vast majority of their income is from consoles. For their sports games. I know they stole Mythic and luckily have not killed DAoC off just yet, but we shall see what happens there. Anyway, the point is EA does not rely on its MMO side of the house to stay afloat so it is doubtful they will be pulling their head out of the genre anytime soon. Mores the pity.
     
      I would really like to see a WH (or 40K) MMO come out and have it be really good. I do Enjoy Eternal Crusade (even though it is nowhere near what they advertised making in the beginning) as a neat little lobby shooter, but there is no real depth to that game. It is what all lobby shooters are, a fun 15 minutes, jump in, jump out type of game. Again, a pity as what they originally advertised would have been amazing.

      However, more to your point a well thought out and executed WH MMORPG would be really welcome (by me at least) at this point.

     Things I would like to see:

      Huge world. Seriously just massive.

      A lot of depth per race. There is plenty of lore out there to really go to town with this and it should be done.

      Use an SEMI-DAoC system speaking to the frontiers (help me here I can't remember it's been so long) but essentially have capturable keeps (up through castles) on the borders between nations. An idea I had instead of making the PvP area static as an assaulting nation captures keeps and castles the area of influence expands so that the attacking nation can eventually take over the entire map. Making the maps massive would make this a month's long endeavor. Assuming the nation being assaulted would at some point defend its self.

     In this system (which even I don't think is viable) the PvE players would have an interest in supporting the PVP players (without having to PvP) or risk losing their homes, forges, horse farms etc. So the PvE player would supply stone, armor, weapons, clothes, wagons, etc all the stuff required for the PvP players to defend or assault. 

    Many more ideas but as this is already a rambling post, I will stop here. 

    As to your main point, it would be great to see a well-done WH MMORPG.

      

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,596
    The best Warhammer MMO is... drumroll... Vanilla WoW.
    Think about it ;)
    CecropiaDistopiawaynejr2HatefullSteelhelm
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  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    I'd rather see a well done turn based strategy game similar to Xcom or Age of Wonders using the IP. 
    Loke666Hatefull

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,909
    The best Warhammer MMO is... drumroll... Vanilla WoW.
    Think about it ;)
    While the original Warcraft game initially was made as a Warhammer game Wow and Warhammer have close to zero in common besides some generic fantasy races. Heck, AoC have more Warhammer feeling then Wow and that ain't much.

    Warhammer is dark and gritty, Wow is colorful and rather positive. It is like comparing Game of thrones with Xena or Douglas Adams Dirk Gently with HP Lovecrafts stories.

    The theme of Warhammer is the corruption leaking into the world and even into the Empires court.
    Hatefull
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,596
    edited July 16
    Loke666 said:
    The best Warhammer MMO is... drumroll... Vanilla WoW.
    Think about it ;)
    While the original Warcraft game initially was made as a Warhammer game Wow and Warhammer have close to zero in common besides some generic fantasy races. Heck, AoC have more Warhammer feeling then Wow and that ain't much.

    Warhammer is dark and gritty, Wow is colorful and rather positive. It is like comparing Game of thrones with Xena or Douglas Adams Dirk Gently with HP Lovecrafts stories.

    The theme of Warhammer is the corruption leaking into the world and even into the Empires court.
    Which makes Warhammer Online (rest in peace) a huge pile of shit.
    I've said "the best MMO". Not the perfect one (warhammer wise).
    And if you think WoW is only about generic fantasy races and smelling the roses, you may want to revisit the lore once again.
    Warhammer : corruption leaking into the world even in the empire.
    WoW: Burning legion corruption leaking into the world, everywhere.

    I've been a fan of warhammer before I even knew Blizzard existed, but lore wise, both franchise would have a hard fight to determine which is the richest, if we stick to the medieval themed part of both.
    Post edited by Jean-Luc_Picard on
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Loke666 said:
    The best Warhammer MMO is... drumroll... Vanilla WoW.
    Think about it ;)
    While the original Warcraft game initially was made as a Warhammer game Wow and Warhammer have close to zero in common besides some generic fantasy races. Heck, AoC have more Warhammer feeling then Wow and that ain't much.

    Warhammer is dark and gritty, Wow is colorful and rather positive. It is like comparing Game of thrones with Xena or Douglas Adams Dirk Gently with HP Lovecrafts stories.

    The theme of Warhammer is the corruption leaking into the world and even into the Empires court.
    There's one really big thing you missed there though.. Artstyle. Which is a big part of the allure for both properties IMO. I don't think either would be as popular if they didn't have the look they have. Especially in Warhammer's case, as the look and design of the miniatures is simply just awesome. 
    Jean-Luc_Picard

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,909
    Which makes Warhammer Online (rest in peace) a huge pile of shit.
    I've said "the best MMO". Not the perfect one (warhammer wise).
    And if you think WoW is only about generic fantasy races and smelling the roses, you may want to revisit the lore once again.
    Warhammer : corruption leaking into the world even in the empire.
    WoW: Burning legion corruption leaking into the world, everywhere.

    I've been a fan of warhammer before I even knew Blizzard existed, but lore wise, both franchise would have a hard fight to determine which is the richest, if we stick to the medieval themed part of both.
    Yeah, but Warhammers hidden corruption is more sinister and is everywhere but it is very hard to spot. Even the emperor is mutated in "the power behind the throne" and the official statement is that there are no mutants... Both games have corruption but they are rather different.

    Distopia said:
    There's one really big thing you missed there though.. Artstyle. Which is a big part of the allure for both properties IMO. I don't think either would be as popular if they didn't have the look they have. Especially in Warhammer's case, as the look and design of the miniatures is simply just awesome. 
    Well, the greenskins use similar artstyle, I give you that. The dwarves to some degree as well. Humans and elves is a very different matter and the world/background have little in common.

    The Empire is actually dark gritty low fantasy styled with buildings often looking rather historical in style while Wow is clearly high fantasy more inspired by Forgotten realms.

    Now, to be fair are the FFG versions artstyle more similar to Wow then the original but they are still nowhere close besides the orcs. I could post a whole bunch of pictures from the original game but that would make this post huge without adding much. The picture I posted is from the cover of the first part of the enemy within and rather typical.

    We don't really need another Wow inspired Warhammer game, neither art or mechanics wise.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Loke666 said:
    Which makes Warhammer Online (rest in peace) a huge pile of shit.
    I've said "the best MMO". Not the perfect one (warhammer wise).
    And if you think WoW is only about generic fantasy races and smelling the roses, you may want to revisit the lore once again.
    Warhammer : corruption leaking into the world even in the empire.
    WoW: Burning legion corruption leaking into the world, everywhere.

    I've been a fan of warhammer before I even knew Blizzard existed, but lore wise, both franchise would have a hard fight to determine which is the richest, if we stick to the medieval themed part of both.
    Yeah, but Warhammers hidden corruption is more sinister and is everywhere but it is very hard to spot. Even the emperor is mutated in "the power behind the throne" and the official statement is that there are no mutants... Both games have corruption but they are rather different.

    Distopia said:
    There's one really big thing you missed there though.. Artstyle. Which is a big part of the allure for both properties IMO. I don't think either would be as popular if they didn't have the look they have. Especially in Warhammer's case, as the look and design of the miniatures is simply just awesome. 
    Well, the greenskins use similar artstyle, I give you that. The dwarves to some degree as well. Humans and elves is a very different matter and the world/background have little in common.

    The Empire is actually dark gritty low fantasy styled with buildings often looking rather historical in style while Wow is clearly high fantasy more inspired by Forgotten realms.

    Now, to be fair are the FFG versions artstyle more similar to Wow then the original but they are still nowhere close besides the orcs. I could post a whole bunch of pictures from the original game but that would make this post huge without adding much. The picture I posted is from the cover of the first part of the enemy within and rather typical.

    We don't really need another Wow inspired Warhammer game, neither art or mechanics wise.
    Sure I'll give you that, especially in terms of promotional material (cover art etc...) WH does have a much darker theme overall. I'm sure that difference on blizzards part is on purpose due to copyright laws, they had to make some changes or they'd be opening a can of worms. It's really not much different than the comparison between Wasteland and Fallout, aside from being conceived by the same person. The changes made were mostly done to skirt around infringement rules. Yet in practice they're very similar properties, that sports an obvious showing the devs wanted to use that property anyway they could. Not unlike the beginnings of Warcraft really. Hell they even went as far as making their own sci-fi themed sister IP as well. 




    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,909
    Distopia said:
    Sure I'll give you that, especially in terms of promotional material (cover art etc...) WH does have a much darker theme overall. I'm sure that difference on blizzards part is on purpose due to copyright laws, they had to make some changes or they'd be opening a can of worms. It's really not much different than the comparison between Wasteland and Fallout, aside from being conceived by the same person. The changes made were mostly done to skirt around infringement rules. Yet in practice they're very similar properties, that sports an obvious showing the devs wanted to use that property anyway they could. Not unlike the beginnings of Warcraft really. Hell they even went as far as making their own sci-fi themed sister IP as well. 
    Thats true but the Warcraft world have changed a lot since the first game came out and the target group of Wow is far younger then the target group for Warhammer fantasy RPG. WFRPG is not a game I would GM for a group of tweens exactly.

    But it is those differences that makes the world a bit harder to make into a MMORPG, particularly anything around Slaanesh and it's demons. It would need an 18 year+ stamp or we would get a lot of upset parents fast.

    Another matter is the combat mechanics. Wow is clearly based on D&D, huge powergap, high focus on gear and a set progression (if you start as a rogue you will become a max level rogue when you are done with the progression).

    Warhammer is different, there certainly is progression and a tomb-robber have little chance against a Witch-hunter but there is a chance. You progress by learning new classes and you can more or less change between anything as long as you paid the XP to max the class out and to move to the next. Stats (which include the percentage you have when using skills you have) have a max for each class so if you already have raised it you need to move to a class/career that has a higher limit if you want to increase it more but after a while you tend to reach a soft levelcap where you can increase few if any stats and just gain new skills and spells. 

    Also, combat in Warhammer takes tactics which isn't strange since it is based on a miniature game. Terrain and position matters far more there then in D&D based games.

    My point is that you can certainly make a good Warhammer fantasy based MMO but you need to be very familiar with the game and it's world. Mythic was not. If you make something close to Wow you fail and there are actually good IPs where that approach will work way better, like Ravenloft or Dragonlance. And getting those IPs will be both cheaper and less grief, Games Workshop are rather hard to work with.
    HatefullDistopia
  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,654
    I would certainly love a new Warhammer Fantasy MMO - I love the lore and artstyle and the endless war, combined with the underlying notion that there aren't really "good" races, its kinda just a free for all. 

    I'm a particular fan of warhammer orcs - I just think they do it better than everyone else - but I have gotten very annoyed at how cheesy they have become when portrayed in video games, just an endless string of clumsy jokes and fart jokes. 
  • lindhskylindhsky Helsingborg, FLMember UncommonPosts: 156
    I really hope so. It's my favourite IP. I hope, if it ever happens, that they do not ONLY focus on PVP but have a nice mixture. I also wish they manage to capture that dark feeling of the World. I still have great memories from my pen and paper Campaigns when the characters entered an Inn in the old forest. When magic was very rare and considered something cursed. 
  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,684
    Warhammer Online evolved into an awesome MMO (before they ruined it with the rat patch), just had a rocky start releasing before it should have. Blame EA.

    It baffles me that it shut down, there are much worse MMOs still on the market. I would love to see another go at it but with 3 factions this time ala Daoc.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,596
    Viper482 said:
    Warhammer Online evolved into an awesome MMO (before they ruined it with the rat patch), just had a rocky start releasing before it should have. Blame EA.

    It baffles me that it shut down, there are much worse MMOs still on the market. I would love to see another go at it but with 3 factions this time ala Daoc.
    WAR was so terribly linear. Most boring leveling I've experienced in a MMORPG.
    The hand/keyboard/screen/eye coordination/responsiveness during combat wasn't that good either.

    The franchise deserves much better than that in my opinion.
    Distopia
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 7700k (4.80ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z270X-UltraGaming - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 4K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Pioneer VSX-322 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILMember RarePosts: 3,053
    ZigZags said:
    Yeah, the IP is amazing, but every game ever created under the IP has sucked ass.
    Dude. Warhammer Vermintide is great and Warhammer Total War could be game of the year.
    Always a problem when you say 'Every.'  There have been a lot of good games (I even enjoyed WAR).  However, there have been some stinkers.  I imagine there will be another MMO.  GamesWorkshop are whores with their IP.  They will license it to just about anyone it seems.  Hopefully when the new MMO comes out, it'll be to a deserving company.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Woodstock, ONMember UncommonPosts: 2,556
    Loke666 said:
    Lets not, they would just mess it up once again.

    Warhammer fantasy RPG have my favorite campaign ever: The enemy within. The game is full of grit and dark humor, it uses a low powergap with interesting and tactical combat (talking about the original game, not Fantasy flight games fail of a new edition). I love Warhammer fantasy RPG, and I still use the 1st edition.

    I don't think I can take another crappy version made by someone who never played the P&P game. Warhammers world is not child friendly, filled with dark horror, drugs, gore, violence and corruption. Whenever someone wants to turn an IP like that into a MMO they take away that stuff.

    It would be better to use an IP like Dragonlance, it is kid friendlier, made to work with levels and easier to get for a none fan.
    The original idea for warhammer online looked good.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkQvPQJ1_Dk

    I liked Warhammer online enough but the limitations of the classes etc. . bah. . was hoping for more open world etc.

    There is the new version of the Pen and Paper RPG coming out from Cubical 7 based on 1st and 2nd so we can hope for something of a throwback although an MMO in the vein is unlikely.  

    Enemy Within 1st edition is still on my shelf right beside me.  I would love to see even a good single player RPG based around something like that.  Maybe I will make it with RPG maker. . KIDDING!

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,654
    mgilbrtsn said:
    ZigZags said:
    Yeah, the IP is amazing, but every game ever created under the IP has sucked ass.
    Dude. Warhammer Vermintide is great and Warhammer Total War could be game of the year.
    Always a problem when you say 'Every.'  There have been a lot of good games (I even enjoyed WAR).  However, there have been some stinkers.  I imagine there will be another MMO.  GamesWorkshop are whores with their IP.  They will license it to just about anyone it seems.  Hopefully when the new MMO comes out, it'll be to a deserving company.
    They've only recently become whores with their IP. For a very long time, their IP was locked down - think THQ had the IP locked on for a decade or more and were incapable of releasing a good game. 

    Since GW started whoring out the IP, it's true most have been stinkers, but most have also been indie attempts, very few decent studios have put in proper effort. More baffling to me is why so many of these small studios decide to focus on the crap bits of warhammer. I mean, I know Skaven have a bit of a cult following, but it's wider appeal is very limited. I mean, giant ugly rats....

    I do understand that there is a desire to differentiate from traditional elves / humans / dwarves type fantasy, but honestly I think they'd be better off focusing on traditional fantasy elements from Warhammer instead of going after the obscure. It's popular for a reason. 


    Same applies to WH40k (my favourite). Most of the games seem to focus on space marines. Now, space marines are cool, but there is so much more to the IP than genetically enhanced humans!
    mgilbrtsn
  • k61977k61977 Pendleton, SCMember RarePosts: 740
    You guys made me miss my squig herder.  One of the most unique classes I have ever played in any mmo.  Would love to see another mmo based off of the lore but really doubt that it will happen in my lifetime again.  Warhammer Online had potential but the way they split the player base up killed it for a lot of people.  
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,909
    Aethaeryn said:
    The original idea for warhammer online looked good.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkQvPQJ1_Dk

    I liked Warhammer online enough but the limitations of the classes etc. . bah. . was hoping for more open world etc.

    There is the new version of the Pen and Paper RPG coming out from Cubical 7 based on 1st and 2nd so we can hope for something of a throwback although an MMO in the vein is unlikely.  

    Enemy Within 1st edition is still on my shelf right beside me.  I would love to see even a good single player RPG based around something like that.  Maybe I will make it with RPG maker. . KIDDING!
    I am well aware that the original idea was closer to Warhammer then the final product but they still based it on the miniature game and not the RPG which is an odd choice for a MMORPG.

    They also decided to use similar progression and combat mechanics as Wow early on and that is a fail in my book for this IP.

    It certainly didn't help that all the original ideas got cut before launch (I did like the idea that you character would change and look cooler as you level) together with 4 of the 6 cities and most of the intended endgame, even if they had added all that it still wouldn't really be Warhammer.

    Seriously, an IP like that should be made by and for fans of the IP.
  • paulythebpaulytheb Wauwatosa, WIMember UncommonPosts: 309
    I remember this game! This was the one where you would be sprinting across an open field and trip over, well, nothing. It was an open field you see. Yet you would stop and have to side step the nothing that tripped you up!

    This was in a PVP zone. Good times. Can't understand why they are not still around.

    ( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

    An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  • CaffynatedCaffynated Shadowbane, TXMember UncommonPosts: 273
    Would love a WAR2.

    I never understood the hate the game got. The art was great, the design concept was good, the classes were some of the most interesting and well designed in any MMO to date, it had tons of great innovations that are now bog standard in pretty much every MMO, and it was just fun.

    All of that outweighs the bugs, poor balance, lack of content development and endless renown/gear grind to stay competitive.

    It had its flaws, but at the end of the day it was one of the better MMOs I've played.
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,909
    Would love a WAR2.

    I never understood the hate the game got. The art was great, the design concept was good, the classes were some of the most interesting and well designed in any MMO to date, it had tons of great innovations that are now bog standard in pretty much every MMO, and it was just fun.

    All of that outweighs the bugs, poor balance, lack of content development and endless renown/gear grind to stay competitive.

    It had its flaws, but at the end of the day it was one of the better MMOs I've played.
    The reason is that they never should have released it as Warhammer and gone for DaoC 2 instead. It was not Warhammer which upset many fans and GW messed things up in development by forcing Mythic to revamp Altdorf which forced them to skip 4 of the 6 planned cities.

    Some parts of it was fun but with 3 factions and no Games Workshop it would have made a far superior game. Paul Barnetts boast about killing Wow before launch didn't help either (what was he thinking?).

  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,654
    Would love a WAR2.

    I never understood the hate the game got. The art was great, the design concept was good, the classes were some of the most interesting and well designed in any MMO to date, it had tons of great innovations that are now bog standard in pretty much every MMO, and it was just fun.

    All of that outweighs the bugs, poor balance, lack of content development and endless renown/gear grind to stay competitive.

    It had its flaws, but at the end of the day it was one of the better MMOs I've played.
    Whilst it had some great ideas, the core gameplay just wasn't fun for most people. 
    • Power gaps - the game just sucked for most people due to horrendous power gaps. Tier 1 was fine whilst we were all noobs. tier 2 and 3 got steadily worse. tier 4 was a joke until you'd been grinding for long enough to reach RR60ish. 
    • Grouping - the combat system was designed for groups, so if you were solo (which most were) you just got your ass handed to you (talking pvp). 
    • Keep Sieges sucked - if you were ranged, you could pew-pew for a while, but for melee it sucked. Get ram - wait for ram - door opens, 30s of fighting - get another ram - wait for ram - inner door opens - 30s fighting. Once you got over the novelty of a keep siege, they were just boring for melee. 
    • PvE sucked - yeh, i know its a pvp game, but it was advertised as both so many people disappointed. I enjoy both so wanted to see both, but every second I spent in pve put me at a disadvantage, so eventually just stopped. 
    • Loot drops sucked - randomised loot, uggh. My friends and I tried to get gear from both pve and pvp, but too often we'd go through something like Bilerot Burrows, kill everything, only to leave empty handed because all loot drops were for classes we didn't have with us. 
    • Crap engine - a large scale pvp game that couldn't handle large scale battles. First fortress fight we had, we crashed the server. Same with the second and third, so they turned off fortresses for a few months. 

    So, in short, for the average gamer, the minute-to-minute fun was just lacking. If you got into a premade for scenarios, or a premade raid for world pvp, sure, it was great fun, but outside of those two activities it was just a painful experience. 
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