MMOs are now Casinos.

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,055
    edited July 16
    Now? It's been a long time...

    The monster of RNG is alive for a very long time
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • ZigZagsZigZags CaliforniaMember UncommonPosts: 370
    I wish we had more money sink gambling options in MMOs. I actually think the OP is totally wrong. Gambling doesn't exist in very many successful AAA MMOs, but it should.

    Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online

    www.albioncentralbank.enjin.com

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,837
    I remember several years ago when the Free to Play conversions started happening, the "freemium" options were really where we saw a lot of companies going. Free games, cash shops, and subscriptions.

    Now, it's all RNG boxes.  Money spent on chances to get the items you want.  Quite literally in a game I've been playing they have an RNG box where you can get a "Jackpot".  

    I don't think that when the western games began the Free 2 Play journey that any of us saw so many of these games adopting a pay to roll scenario.

    So many people just say "well that's RNG, deal with it"  and others say "I would never buy those RNG boxes".

    How do you all feel about the way monetization has ended up in MMOs and online games these days? 
    Well, didn't free to play start in the east and aren't they big on games of chance?

    Another thing some companies do over there is open up games, get as much money as they can out of them and them (opening up a lot of servers) and then close them and do it again. I'm pretty sure that western players would freak over that (I wouldn't be amused).

    But these games take a lot of time and money, players are fickle, most don't want to pay a sub at what the "actual" rate might possibly be given inflation so here we are.

    Companies try to get as much as they can how they can.

    I read somewhere that only a very small percentage of players actually buy cosmetic items compared to the population of a game. Yet so many players scream "you should only include cosmetic items in the cash shop".

    It's as if developers are screwed right from the start.
    maskedweasel



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 15,082
    to be fair the very roots of RPG in dungeon and dragons contained dice which were the very symbol of RNG
    refo18

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    Torval said:
    Torval said:


    In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.
    The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

    "F2P" is the scourge of gaming.


    You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.
    Pot... meet kettle.
    Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.

    And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.

    Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.

    Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.

    And all you can come up with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
    maskedweaselGdemami
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    Kyleran said:
    DrDread74 said:
    Reality is, those RNG people are 10x more profitable then you "smart" people who spend your money wisely. Hence capitalism will cater more and more to the more profitable people. 

    Here in Las Vegas, there are slots in the Convenient stores. max of 5 by law I think, but every C-Store has them.

    The amount of money the 5 slot "mini casino" makes is more then the store makes. Friend owns a C-Store, most C-Stores out here are opened up to break even or take a loss on the actual store but to make bank on the 5 slots. 

    Its a form of entertainment you must realize. When you spend money on the movies, popcorn or even dining out, that's purely unnecessary "entertainment" except you'll never occasionally jackpot a nice steak dinner. In a way, the RNG people are smarter than you =)
    Opiate sales are really profitable as well, even legally sold, still doesn't change the fact they are largely a scourge on society.
    Opiates are largely a scourge on society? I don't think modern medicine would work without them. Have you had major surgery? Think about what you said for a moment and if it's really true? Do you even have any evidence to prove your point that opiates are largely a scourge on society or are you basing that off of the fun national narrative issue of the day?
    maskedweaselGdemami
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXMember RarePosts: 9,219
    Sovrath said:
    I remember several years ago when the Free to Play conversions started happening, the "freemium" options were really where we saw a lot of companies going. Free games, cash shops, and subscriptions.

    Now, it's all RNG boxes.  Money spent on chances to get the items you want.  Quite literally in a game I've been playing they have an RNG box where you can get a "Jackpot".  

    I don't think that when the western games began the Free 2 Play journey that any of us saw so many of these games adopting a pay to roll scenario.

    So many people just say "well that's RNG, deal with it"  and others say "I would never buy those RNG boxes".

    How do you all feel about the way monetization has ended up in MMOs and online games these days? 
    Well, didn't free to play start in the east and aren't they big on games of chance?

    Another thing some companies do over there is open up games, get as much money as they can out of them and them (opening up a lot of servers) and then close them and do it again. I'm pretty sure that western players would freak over that (I wouldn't be amused).

    But these games take a lot of time and money, players are fickle, most don't want to pay a sub at what the "actual" rate might possibly be given inflation so here we are.

    Companies try to get as much as they can how they can.

    I read somewhere that only a very small percentage of players actually buy cosmetic items compared to the population of a game. Yet so many players scream "you should only include cosmetic items in the cash shop".

    It's as if developers are screwed right from the start.
    Hopefully we don't see companies that just open and shut games to bilk people out of money.

    The thing is, it seems like RNG is there because those that are paying won't stop paying until they get what they want.  In a recent study I read  .15% of players pay for 50% of revenue, and in total only 1.5% of the playerbase spends any money at all.

    We're talking about situations where less than 2% of the population you see in free to play games is responsible for all of the revenue,  with less than .2% paying for most of it.  RNG definitely caters more to whales than to anyone else, and as they are already paying for the majority of the game, I see this as a natural progression.

    But how far will games go to cater to the "whales" if it turns off a broader playerbase that might spend money.  Will it even matter at all? 
    Torval



  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    I asked my son if he buys loot crates in the games he plays. He's a PS4 player almost exclusively now and mostly plays different sorts of shooters. He's a teen and doesn't have full time employment but does do odd jobs that teens do.

    He told me he mostly spends his money in games that just let you buy stuff, even if it's more money than the loot crate options. He only spends $10 to $20 a week on that stuff, but I found his spending habits interesting.

    He recently bought game cash in Uncharted 4 to get new guns for multiplayer. He'll buy GTA cash or spend money in R6:Siege, but doesn't buy the COD loot crates because "you get too much junk in them" (his words).

    I say this because we often blame the "kiddies" for being "ADD" and blowing all their parents money on loot crates, but my casual experience with what he and his friends buy doesn't mirror that. His opinion was that a lot of people do buy the loot boxes, so that made me wonder if it's really kids who do that or if it's adults with higher paying jobs throwing cash at it.
    maskedweaselSteelhelm
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    Torval said:

    Kyleran said:
    DrDread74 said:
    Reality is, those RNG people are 10x more profitable then you "smart" people who spend your money wisely. Hence capitalism will cater more and more to the more profitable people. 

    Here in Las Vegas, there are slots in the Convenient stores. max of 5 by law I think, but every C-Store has them.

    The amount of money the 5 slot "mini casino" makes is more then the store makes. Friend owns a C-Store, most C-Stores out here are opened up to break even or take a loss on the actual store but to make bank on the 5 slots. 

    Its a form of entertainment you must realize. When you spend money on the movies, popcorn or even dining out, that's purely unnecessary "entertainment" except you'll never occasionally jackpot a nice steak dinner. In a way, the RNG people are smarter than you =)
    Opiate sales are really profitable as well, even legally sold, still doesn't change the fact they are largely a scourge on society.
    Opiates are largely a scourge on society? I don't think modern medicine would work without them. Have you had major surgery? Think about what you said for a moment and if it's really true? Do you even have any evidence to prove your point that opiates are largely a scourge on society or are you basing that off of the fun national narrative issue of the day?

    Definition of Scourge: a person or thing that causes great trouble or suffering

    My oldest daughter is approaching 5 years clean this September after nearly a 13 year period of addiction which resulted in her actually "dying" twice from opiates and being resuscitated once by a hospital and once by her boyfriend.

    So  yeah, it's a bit personal for me and I regularly have contact with the recovery community and continue to watch my the friends of my children die from this "scourge"

    But if you want "evidence" I offer the following from the US CDC: 
    Opioid prescribing continues to fuel the epidemic. Today, nearly half of all U.S. opioid overdose deaths involve a prescription opioid.1 In 2015, more than 15,000 people died from overdoses involving prescription opioids.

    https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/overdose.html

    Or this article from the American Society Of Addition Medicine which stated:
    Drug overdose is the leading cause of accidental death in the US, with 52,404 lethal drug overdoses in 2015. Opioid addiction is driving this epidemic, with 20,101 overdose deaths related to prescription pain relievers, and 12,990 overdose deaths related to heroin in 2015. 5 

    https://www.asam.org/docs/default-source/advocacy/opioid-addiction-disease-facts-figures.pdf

    Additional News articles if you are interested:
    https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-20/number-daily-opioid-overdoses-south-florida-overwhelming-police

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-pn-heroin-emergency-20170322-story.html

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/americas-heroin-epidemic/florida-gov-declares-state-s-opioid-epidemic-public-health-emergency-n755056

    Sometimes pain is the least of our problems, but we have gone way off topic.

    If anyone would like to learn more I'll be happy to share offline.


    GdemamiAlverantMadFrenchie

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,894
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:


    In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.
    The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

    "F2P" is the scourge of gaming.


    You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.
    Pot... meet kettle.
    Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.

    And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.

    Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.

    Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.

    And all you can come up with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
    He may have used the term "commodity" inappropriately but his general point is not wrong. Calling the payment model free to play and not charging subs does indeed create a different expectation going in even if it's just at a superficial subconscious level even though we all know that free has severe limitations in all of them.

    And he is also right that subs always were and still are a good deal if it's something you play a lot.

    And F2P is indeed the scourge of gaming. It has created an acceptance of what amounts to commercials in MMOs as normal at both the development and playing levels. It's a rare MMO these days that can be experienced as just game play without some minor or major cash shop intrusion. 

    The current MMO business model may be a necessary evil (although I'm not even sure that it is necessary) but it does absolutely nothing to enhance game play - quite the opposite. 
    coretex666NildenGdemami
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,181
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:


    In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.
    The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

    "F2P" is the scourge of gaming.


    You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.
    Pot... meet kettle.
    Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.

    And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.

    Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.

    Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.

    And all you can come up with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
    You are very off base in your analysis.  There is a massive percentage of players that won't pay a $15 sub because it's not worth it since other games let them play for "free".  If you fail to see that the problem is on your end.

    As for a personal attack... I think you need to take a look at the thread and re-evaluate your thoughts.  You said I was setting up a narrative I wanted to believe which was different from reality.  I used the Pot/Kettle analogy which is essentially saying "Hey right back at ya".  Again, if you see some sort of personal attack in that the problem is on your end.  When someone has a different opinion on a discussion it's not in any way shape or form a personal attack so lets just agree to stick to the topic.



    GdemamiunfilteredJW

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:


    In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.
    The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

    "F2P" is the scourge of gaming.


    You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.
    Pot... meet kettle.
    Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.

    And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.

    Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.

    Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.

    And all you can come uP with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
    I was agreeing with him as you stated "You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe."

    Whether your realize it or not, you do exactly the same thing.  Heck almost everyone on these forums does it, even me of course.  What ever "reality" you perceive, do realize, it's not a perfect representation for a variety of reasons and other's may perceive it differently.

    I actually do agree with your assertion "Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can." and in fact I think monetization is the one area of greatest innovation in gaming in the past 15 years.

    But the fact is, some gamers (many?) do in fact look at the price of a $15.00 sub as too expensive, even when they might willingly spend more than that in a different payment model.  Narius will tell you he loves F2P and will do is his best to not spend money on entertainment when/if he can pull it off.  

    I personally believe having a class of players with no vested interest / purchase in a game is a bad idea, as do I believe appealing to players who can afford it (or mis-spend) with overly expensive in game items and advantages to also be bad for gaming as a whole.

    At the end of the day, the market is what it is, and there's no going back.  I know a few of the indies claim they are going to offer sub only options with limited or no cash shops.  They are crazy if they do IMO, they need to ensure a proper revenue stream in order to keep their game healthy and growing, and try their best to not make it too onerous.


    maskedweaselTorvalGdemami

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    Iselin said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:


    In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.
    The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

    "F2P" is the scourge of gaming.


    You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.
    Pot... meet kettle.
    Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.

    And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.

    Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.

    Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.

    And all you can come up with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
    He may have used the term "commodity" inappropriately but his general point is not wrong. Calling the payment model free to play and not charging subs does indeed create a different expectation going in even if it's just at a superficial subconscious level even though we all know that free has severe limitations in all of them.

    And he is also right that subs always were and still are a good deal if it's something you play a lot.

    And F2P is indeed the scourge of gaming. It has created an acceptance of what amounts to commercials in MMOs as normal at both the development and playing levels. It's a rare MMO these days that can be experienced as just game play without some minor or major cash shop intrusion. 

    The current MMO business model may be a necessary evil (although I'm not even sure that it is necessary) but it does absolutely nothing to enhance game play - quite the opposite. 
    I don't think it's that simple. We love to over simplify things on this site. I almost always subscribe to a game, but I rarely play mandatory sub games for long periods. There is a difference.

    Cash shops and micro transactions were coming before F2P. That started when goodies and collectors editions were a thing, long long before F2P. When it clicked with publishers that they could sell more by adding a little exclusive fluff, then it was just a matter of time before they started selling those items ala carte. F2P was just an excuse or catalyst to implement something already in motion.

    When F2P bloomed all it mean is that you could play the game without a mandatory sub. It was "free to play" without a subscription. The publishers could  have gone with box fee and no mandatory sub. But they went with the micro transaction route because gamers consistently send the message that they like extra fluff and exclusive goodies.

    Subscriptions didn't enhance gameplay. They detracted as much as cash shops, in a different manner. The necessary evils as you call them are inherent to almost every aspect of game design where money touches it and their acceptance or rejection is completely arbitrary and inconsistent.

    Look at the world of cognitive dissonance that mmo gamers live in. MMO gamers want new mmos every year in a genre built around longevity. I'm pretty sure both you and Kyle echoed how you don't want mindless grind (in a Pantheon thread) in a genre that is built around grind. Why would you keep subscribing to your sub-locked game if you didn't have a mountain of grind to climb?

    You're half right and half wrong in my opinion. You're right that F2P has been twisted into a monetization abortion, but more so that the industry can't stop trying to push revenue generation further and further squeezing players more and more. On the other hand you're wrong to think that pure subs were simply better and didn't affect mmo game design adversely. The truth is somewhere in the middle of that.
    maskedweasel
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:


    In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.
    The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

    "F2P" is the scourge of gaming.


    You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.
    Pot... meet kettle.
    Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.

    And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.

    Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.

    Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.

    And all you can come uP with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
    I was agreeing with him as you stated "You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe."

    Whether your realize it or not, you do exactly the same thing.  Heck almost everyone on these forums does it, even me of course.  What ever "reality" you perceive, do realize, it's not a perfect representation for a variety of reasons and other's may perceive it differently.

    I actually do agree with your assertion "Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can." and in fact I think monetization is the one area of greatest innovation in gaming in the past 15 years.

    But the fact is, some gamers (many?) do in fact look at the price of a $15.00 sub as too expensive, even when they might willingly spend more than that in a different payment model.  Narius will tell you he loves F2P and will do is his best to not spend money on entertainment when/if he can pull it off.  

    I personally believe having a class of players with no vested interest / purchase in a game is a bad idea, as do I believe appealing to players who can afford it (or mis-spend) with overly expensive in game items and advantages to also be bad for gaming as a whole.

    At the end of the day, the market is what it is, and there's no going back.  I know a few of the indies claim they are going to offer sub only options with limited or no cash shops.  They are crazy if they do IMO, they need to ensure a proper revenue stream in order to keep their game healthy and growing, and try their best to not make it too onerous.


    We all have our biases our perspectives. The difference is that I stated an observation as an opinion. I feel that. He states his opinion as a historic fact and directs the argument as if that's a given. That is creating and directing the narrative to an agenda.

    Give facts, make observations, and then state an opinion and support it with facts if you want it to be believed. He didn't do that with the argument. He does that a lot. That's why I said reality doesn't match his account.

    People pirated games long before subscriptions so their removal didn't suddenly create a culture that expects all games to be for free. The millennial characteristic of entitlement didn't spring from F2P as it shows up in all aspects of culture.

    People don't like subs for a couple more common reasons. They don't see that value in adding another monthly bill and they don't want to be saddled with that. And I don't blame them. The upkeep cost of mmos compared to other games and other forms of related digital entertainment is huge. MMOs and MMORPGs ask a lot of annual upkeep, not to mention focus and dedication, and people aren't seeing the long term value over years.

    I especially agree with your last paragraph and I feel we were headed this direction, like I said to Iselin above, regardless of F2P. Subs weren't cutting it - not enough money. F2P was just the low hanging fruit for the "easy first change" step. If they could have added the cash shop and skipped the F2P part they would have. Notice how we're moving back to a more mandatory sub with locked features (ESO, SWTOR, EQ2) or limiting features.

    There has been a lot of innovation in revenue generation and I agree there should be a middle ground between having to spend several hundred dollars a year or more (on a single title!) and game design that's hampered with over monetization. I just can't agree with that original perspective of subs that triggered this. I think it's disingenuous and doesn't accurately portray history at all.
    maskedweaselKyleranunfilteredJW
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  • MoiraeMoirae New Orleans, LAMember RarePosts: 3,219
    One of the many reasons I rarely play MMO's anymore.
    TorvalNilden
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    Moirae said:
    One of the many reasons I rarely play MMO's anymore.
    Do you play other kinds of game now or have you stopped gaming altogether?
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,778
    Uhm, in a casino you actually can earn money (well, it is stacked against you but people still win), in a RNG box you at best get a nice skin or a small advantage depending on the game.

    So they are actually worse then casinos, not the same thing.
    DeadSpockSlapshot1188maskedweasel
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,111
    edited July 17
    I remember several years ago when the Free to Play conversions started happening, the "freemium" options were really where we saw a lot of companies going. Free games, cash shops, and subscriptions.

    Now, it's all RNG boxes.  Money spent on chances to get the items you want.  Quite literally in a game I've been playing they have an RNG box where you can get a "Jackpot".  

    I don't think that when the western games began the Free 2 Play journey that any of us saw so many of these games adopting a pay to roll scenario.

    So many people just say "well that's RNG, deal with it"  and others say "I would never buy those RNG boxes".

    How do you all feel about the way monetization has ended up in MMOs and online games these days? 
    MMOs have always had RNG boxes, especially with Eastern style MMOs. The west just finally caught on.

    It's actually quite absurd to see have low the drop rates are for the "legendary" loot is for the loot boxes though, surprisingly enough Valve is the worst offender in the US for this practice. Is it pay to win? No, but the drop rates for the rarest loot is well below a 0.1% drop rate.

    Regardless of the issue, if the game is free and sells RNG boxes and I enjoy it. I'll throw them money on occasion, I'm playing for free after all.
    Post edited by Mtibbs1989 on

    image

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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,778
    MMOs have always had RNG boxes, especially with Eastern style MMOs. The west just finally caught on.

    It's actually quite absurd to see have low the drop rates are for the "legendary" loot is for the loot boxes though, surprisingly enough Valve is the worst offender in the US for this practice. Is it pay to win? No, but the drop rates for the rarest loot is well below a 0.1% drop rate.

    Regardless of the issue, if the game is free and sells RNG boxes and I enjoy it. I'll throw them money on occasion, I'm playing for free after all.
    That is fine, giving some money to a game you like has nothing to do with gambling. Good games should be encouraged and need income to survive.

    But I at least would support those games no matter if they have RNG boxes (I tend to buy character slots or skins anyways when I feel a game have deserved some bucks).

    I still wished they stopped with the RNG boxes, it is rather silly and sucks far too much money out of people with a gambling addiction. Yeah, they are (hopefully) grown men and women but it is still at best morally doubtful.
    Torval
  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,158
    Moirae said:
    One of the many reasons I rarely play MMO's anymore.
    I think I would put cash shop cancer right out front as reason number one.

    Been playing MMORPGs exclusively on emulator servers for about the past 6 months or more.

    Would rather have nothing to do with this casino cash shop crap. It ruins games for me.
    GdemamiSlapshot1188

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  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,557
    I remember when F2P was first introduced to the majority of western MMOs, I was against it but it at least had 2 very valid goals:

    1) Reduce barrier to entry

    Apparently paying £8.99 a month is too expensive for some people so devs wanted a way to reduce this barrier whilst still getting money. The goal of F2P was so that the players themselves could set their own limits of paying money. You'd get access to a small portion of the content and could then pick and choose the rest of the content on a timescale to suit your lifestyle. 

    So, if you only played for 2 hours a month, you could start the game for free, play for 6 months until you reached the end of the free content. Then you might spend £5 to unlock the next zone which would take you another 3 months to complete. Then £5 for the next zone etc etc. 

    This made sense to me. The total price of being F2P was more expensive that subbing, but you got to do it on a timescale that suited you. 


    2) Reduced development

    Western gamers prefer subs. Eastern gamers prefer F2P. Developers were therefore having to maintain two payment systems to appease both markets. Part of the goal of F2P was to make the global codebase the same for everything, reducing dev costs and increasing reliability. 

    Again, another good goal. 



    I still don't really know how we've gotten from these two valid, reasonable goals of f2p to the modern cash shop ripoff. I don't approve and in fact tend to avoid all F2P games. I'll occasionally try one if the shop / prices are fair and reasonable and the game looks good, but so far that's only happened once (wildstar) and the game turned out to be bad anyway. I've been part of LotRO and SW:TOR when they converted to F2P and in both instances it made the games worse and contributed to me leaving. 
    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 15,082
    i say again.

    RNG is one of the main cornerstone of gaming, it always has been, it always will be and its basically part of the 'physics' of what makes games work so what the f are you people talking about?
    cameltosisKyleran

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,837
    SEANMCAD said:
    i say again.

    RNG is one of the main cornerstone of gaming, it always has been, it always will be and its basically part of the 'physics' of what makes games work so what the f are you people talking about?

    I don't think the complaint in this thread is about "rng" so much as rng "as gambling" in order to get ahead.


    Kyleran



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 15,082
    Sovrath said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    i say again.

    RNG is one of the main cornerstone of gaming, it always has been, it always will be and its basically part of the 'physics' of what makes games work so what the f are you people talking about?

    I don't think the complaint in this thread is about "rng" so much as rng "as gambling" in order to get ahead.


    its the same thing
    cameltosisKyleranNilden

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  • xpsyncxpsync VvardenfellMember UncommonPosts: 600
    Nailed it, OP
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