A few questions to decide if I give TESO another try

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,755
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    laserit
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,665
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,755
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.
    laserit
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,665
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,600
    edited October 15
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    yeah I often think about that too. It ruins my "immersion" knowing that the rats I killed at the start of the game were "training" just as hard as I was during my journey so they are the same strength as me supposedly. I'm not completely against concept, I just feel like it should only extend to certain cases like maybe an expansion or something so it seems a bit more "realistic" depending on the threat. I guess in some ways that's why Legion worked to an extent to me in that regard even though I still feel WoD did leveling better. It was nice taking on certain zones depending on how I felt instead of just going the same order over and over.
    Post edited by Albatroes on
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,177
    edited October 15
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    But they don't unless you do it wrong.

    My CP 660 characters with all the best skills unlocked, good CP160 gear sets and smart use of CP passives that give me + damage and + mitigation, demolish 10 of any type of mob that would give a level 4 fits when they're trying to fight just 2 of them.

    That "super power" you speak of is alive and well in ESO. The only difference is that you have to build it and work at it and isn't a simple matter of just being a level 20 vs. a level 10.

    I think people that don't like the way level scaling works in ESO honestly just do not understand how ESO works and what needs to be done to get that "super power" and how relatively trivial level #s are in its scheme of things. And this is not a new thing: it was also this way before level scaling. It's just more pronounced now.

    Do you want to see this in action? Do this: Take your level 10 whatever and try to solo the 4-man Fungal Grotto 1... you'll fail badly but that's OK. Try it again at level 30 with your better skills.. you'll still fail (well maybe you won't if you happen to be a level 30 with CP660 allocated but that's not what we're talking about.) Give it a rest and try it again when you're CP300... if you don't manage to solo it at this point there is something terrible about your build and play style.
    Post edited by Iselin on
    laseritYashaXJean-Luc_Picard
    You say you never compromise
    With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
    He's not selling any alibis
    As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
    And say "Do you want to make a deal?"
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,755
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.
    laseritYashaX
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 267
    edited October 15
    Horusra said:


    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    0/10

    That was a horrible, horrible, utterly disingenuous comment. If you're going to try and bash a game, at least try to make it sound like you have a clue.

    1. You don't fight squirrels, or anything comparable to them, unless you're going after the small 'flavor' critters running around, which are incredibly weak. This isn't WoW, FFXIV, etc.

    2. Different enemies still have different levels of difficulty, within a given area, and certainly as you progress further from starting areas. Those closer to starting areas are notably weaker than those in later areas.

    3. Levels still play a role in terms of the gear you can use, and to a degree, what skills you have unlocked/improved. There is a big difference between a new player going after an enemy in lower level in weaker gear and someone going after that same enemy in stronger gear and better skills they acquire later.

    I wasn't a fan of the level scaling at first, either, but as I progressed through the game and realized the scaling isn't "linear", but differed depending on the enemy, the area, and what gear/skills I'm using, it actually made the game more enjoyable to me than a strict, linear "you can go to this area at this level range" approach. It allows you to "reasonably" survive in an area at any "level", but by no means guarantees you're going to survive very long. There are other variables involved.

    Put another way, even with the scaling, I'm not going to be doing any Craglorn Trials on my level 6 Nightblade.
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
    YashaX
  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,665
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.

    if you are strong enough people do not mess with you.  I do not like the feeling that your character is stagnate.  I do not get a since of progression.  The only one I have found I liked was WoW Legion where eventually you still out...well power stuff.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,755
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.

    if you are strong enough people do not mess with you.  I do not like the feeling that your character is stagnate.  I do not get a since of progression.  The only one I have found I liked was WoW Legion where eventually you still out...well power stuff.
    That statement makes me think you've not leveled a character in a scaled world system because there is a sense of progression. In fact there is a better sense of progression than static worlds where your only indicator is bigger numbers.

    How is there a sense of progression when you trivialize rats in one zone but suddenly get wiped with them in the new zone because you know they suddenly got made combat skills and 10 MILLION hitpoints just for living over a zone line.

    That's on top of the fact that it's the primary contributor to fragmentation and stratification of the player base. Want to play with your friends or guildies? Nope, can't do it because they only know how to fight 10 hitpoint rats, not the super ninjas with 10 million hitpoints in the next zone. How did those rats get all those combat skills and hitpoints? Talk about immersion shattering.

    I can't think of one progression flaw with a scaling system where the issue isn't more glaring and worse in a non-scaled system.

    I get enjoying the power a non-scaled system presents. It trivializes all previous content removing all challenge. As much as people claim they want challenge clinging to systems that gut it tells otherwise and that's the kind of game world scaled systems create.
    IselinlaseritYashaXQuarterStack
    The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: The Plugz, The Burning Sensations
    Album: Repo Man Soundtrack
    Featured Tracks: Hombre Secreto [Plugz], Pablo Picasso [Burning Sensations]
  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,665
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.

    if you are strong enough people do not mess with you.  I do not like the feeling that your character is stagnate.  I do not get a since of progression.  The only one I have found I liked was WoW Legion where eventually you still out...well power stuff.
    That statement makes me think you've not leveled a character in a scaled world system because there is a sense of progression. In fact there is a better sense of progression than static worlds where your only indicator is bigger numbers.

    How is there a sense of progression when you trivialize rats in one zone but suddenly get wiped with them in the new zone because you know they suddenly got made combat skills and 10 MILLION hitpoints just for living over a zone line.

    That's on top of the fact that it's the primary contributor to fragmentation and stratification of the player base. Want to play with your friends or guildies? Nope, can't do it because they only know how to fight 10 hitpoint rats, not the super ninjas with 10 million hitpoints in the next zone. How did those rats get all those combat skills and hitpoints? Talk about immersion shattering.

    I can't think of one progression flaw with a scaling system where the issue isn't more glaring and worse in a non-scaled system.

    I get enjoying the power a non-scaled system presents. It trivializes all previous content removing all challenge. As much as people claim they want challenge clinging to systems that gut it tells otherwise and that's the kind of game world scaled systems create.

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making.  

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  
    IselinYashaXKajidourden
  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Member EpicPosts: 4,426
    edited October 15
    Horusra said:


    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  

    If you want to think of ESO as having a system in which new characters and mobs (anywhere) start out more or less on a par and characters slowly become more powerful as they gain experience / "levels" that's fine. (Not how the system works but why worry.)

    You would have to give it a try to see that this is the case but if you did you would find that the game is not "static". Just be aware that characters don't race to "max" in a few days. 

    None of the above posters are trying to fool you - or anyone.

    Post edited by gervaise1 on
    YashaX
  • YashaXYashaX Baldurs GateMember RarePosts: 1,969
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.

    if you are strong enough people do not mess with you.  I do not like the feeling that your character is stagnate.  I do not get a since of progression.  The only one I have found I liked was WoW Legion where eventually you still out...well power stuff.
    That statement makes me think you've not leveled a character in a scaled world system because there is a sense of progression. In fact there is a better sense of progression than static worlds where your only indicator is bigger numbers.

    How is there a sense of progression when you trivialize rats in one zone but suddenly get wiped with them in the new zone because you know they suddenly got made combat skills and 10 MILLION hitpoints just for living over a zone line.

    That's on top of the fact that it's the primary contributor to fragmentation and stratification of the player base. Want to play with your friends or guildies? Nope, can't do it because they only know how to fight 10 hitpoint rats, not the super ninjas with 10 million hitpoints in the next zone. How did those rats get all those combat skills and hitpoints? Talk about immersion shattering.

    I can't think of one progression flaw with a scaling system where the issue isn't more glaring and worse in a non-scaled system.

    I get enjoying the power a non-scaled system presents. It trivializes all previous content removing all challenge. As much as people claim they want challenge clinging to systems that gut it tells otherwise and that's the kind of game world scaled systems create.

      

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  
    I am amazed at the number of people like you who make posts about games that you obviously have no clue about.
    SlyLoKgervaise1IselinJean-Luc_Picard
    ....
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 267
    edited October 16
    Horusra said:

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making. 

    No, they're not at all, actually. You're focusing on the specific example given, and ignoring the greater point. But, if the "scale" of Torval's example is hanging you up, then fine. it works just as fine if we replace the uber powerful rats in the next zone with rats that are not drastically but still notably more powerful at all,  simply because you crossed an invisible line somewhere.

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static. 

    Incorrect. You absolutely do get a sense of progress and you absolutely do not get "owned" by the very first creature (talk about strawman generalizations...).

    For example, earlier this evening, I went into a Delve in ESO. There were two enemies I had to get past, attacked them and the fight took a bit of time, with me having to dodge a number of attacks, taking significant damage. I finish them off with about 1/3 life left. As I approach the next set of enemies, another player runs up behind me and we both attack them. It's over before it begins. The other player annihilates them.

    In a game with level scaling.


    The difference? The other player had more time on their character, and acquired better skills and better gear.

    In a word: Progression.

    Post edited by QuarterStack on
    YashaXIselinSlyLoK
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,597
    edited October 16
    Iselin said:

    Do you want to see this in action? Do this: Take your level 10 whatever and try to solo the 4-man Fungal Grotto 1... you'll fail badly but that's OK. Try it again at level 30 with your better skills.. you'll still fail (well maybe you won't if you happen to be a level 30 with CP660 allocated but that's not what we're talking about.) Give it a rest and try it again when you're CP300... if you don't manage to solo it at this point there is something terrible about your build and play style.
    Exactly.
    The first time I tried a public dungeon alone, not even a 4 man one, just the standard public dungeon (one step above a delve), I got my ass handed to me by the first trash pack.
    Some levels and skill points later, I was taking those packs with ease, and now at CP 180+ I just faceroll them. The same mobs in the same dungeon.
    The power increase is definitely a reality in ESO but it's not stupidly brutal and unrealistic like in EQ/WoW clones. It's closer to real life, where you can learn to better avoid damage and ditch some yourself, but you never become immortal: if a 10 year old kid stabs you in the heart, you still die.
    Also, I have so much health regen now that even a pack of those rats which were killing me at level 1 can't dent my health anymore. I can just stand there and I won't die.

    Horusra said:

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making.  

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  
    You should refrain posting supposed "facts" about things you know nothing about. For your own sake.
    Post edited by Jean-Luc_Picard on
    ScotchUpTorvalQuarterStack
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  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 58
    Iselin said:

    Do you want to see this in action? Do this: Take your level 10 whatever and try to solo the 4-man Fungal Grotto 1... you'll fail badly but that's OK. Try it again at level 30 with your better skills.. you'll still fail (well maybe you won't if you happen to be a level 30 with CP660 allocated but that's not what we're talking about.) Give it a rest and try it again when you're CP300... if you don't manage to solo it at this point there is something terrible about your build and play style.
    Exactly.
    The first time I tried a public dungeon alone, not even a 4 man one, just the standard public dungeon (one step above a delve), I got my ass handed to me by the first trash pack.
    Some levels and skill points later, I was taking those packs with ease, and now at CP 180+ I just faceroll them. The same mobs in the same dungeon.
    The power increase is definitely a reality in ESO but it's not stupidly brutal and unrealistic like in EQ/WoW clones. It's closer to real life, where you can learn to better avoid damage and ditch some yourself, but you never become immortal: if a 10 year old kid stabs you in the heart, you still die.
    Also, I have so much health regen now that even a pack of those rats which were killing me at level 1 can't dent my health anymore. I can just stand there and I won't die.

    Horusra said:

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making.  

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  
    You should refrain posting supposed "facts" about things you know nothing about. For your own sake.
    Pretty much have to agree with this. The way they made the game really isn't allowing you to play your way like they said. Only good thing today from past is less people means easier to get more crafting material. Also if you think about it pvp means nothing today after allowing you to go anywhere even places you are suppose to be at war with.

    Hate how they made maps. you never get ones from area you are in. You get them for all over world but never in area you play. That really is stupid, just reading story line now really makes no sense on how game was sold to us.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Panama City, FLMember RarePosts: 1,462
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.

    if you are strong enough people do not mess with you.  I do not like the feeling that your character is stagnate.  I do not get a since of progression.  The only one I have found I liked was WoW Legion where eventually you still out...well power stuff.
    That statement makes me think you've not leveled a character in a scaled world system because there is a sense of progression. In fact there is a better sense of progression than static worlds where your only indicator is bigger numbers.

    How is there a sense of progression when you trivialize rats in one zone but suddenly get wiped with them in the new zone because you know they suddenly got made combat skills and 10 MILLION hitpoints just for living over a zone line.

    That's on top of the fact that it's the primary contributor to fragmentation and stratification of the player base. Want to play with your friends or guildies? Nope, can't do it because they only know how to fight 10 hitpoint rats, not the super ninjas with 10 million hitpoints in the next zone. How did those rats get all those combat skills and hitpoints? Talk about immersion shattering.

    I can't think of one progression flaw with a scaling system where the issue isn't more glaring and worse in a non-scaled system.

    I get enjoying the power a non-scaled system presents. It trivializes all previous content removing all challenge. As much as people claim they want challenge clinging to systems that gut it tells otherwise and that's the kind of game world scaled systems create.

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making.  

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  

    Just stop talking, it's apparent to everyone here you have no idea what you're talking about.  I doubt you've played ESO more than a few hours.
  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,665
    edited October 16
    Iselin said:

    Do you want to see this in action? Do this: Take your level 10 whatever and try to solo the 4-man Fungal Grotto 1... you'll fail badly but that's OK. Try it again at level 30 with your better skills.. you'll still fail (well maybe you won't if you happen to be a level 30 with CP660 allocated but that's not what we're talking about.) Give it a rest and try it again when you're CP300... if you don't manage to solo it at this point there is something terrible about your build and play style.
    Exactly.
    The first time I tried a public dungeon alone, not even a 4 man one, just the standard public dungeon (one step above a delve), I got my ass handed to me by the first trash pack.
    Some levels and skill points later, I was taking those packs with ease, and now at CP 180+ I just faceroll them. The same mobs in the same dungeon.
    The power increase is definitely a reality in ESO but it's not stupidly brutal and unrealistic like in EQ/WoW clones. It's closer to real life, where you can learn to better avoid damage and ditch some yourself, but you never become immortal: if a 10 year old kid stabs you in the heart, you still die.
    Also, I have so much health regen now that even a pack of those rats which were killing me at level 1 can't dent my health anymore. I can just stand there and I won't die.

    Horusra said:

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making.  

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  
    You should refrain posting supposed "facts" about things you know nothing about. For your own sake.

    While over generalized the "fact" remains...that the first mobs you face are just as powerful when you are max level as when you are low level.  Yeah you have more skills to kill them with.  More functionality, but there is no going back to wipe up mobs as you can in other games.  There is little sense of feeling that your character has become powerful.  I am sitting at 378 CP and all desire to play is gone because all I am doing is playing storylines cause I feel my character is not progressing.  I have little desire to play alts unlike other none scaling games where I actually like leveling characters to defeat different areas.  In ESO it is go anywhere do anything because frankly the mobs are all the same due to scaling.  If I just want storylines single player games are so much better.  This is the same reason basic Oblivion sucked....level scaling.  I want to be able to go back and kill that mob that kicked my ass before, but now it just scales with me.  I want to mindlessly farm sometimes.  I do not mind dungeon scaling, but open world scaling blows.






    Post edited by Horusra on
  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDMember RarePosts: 3,665
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    All 399 skyshards collected... :)
    That didn't take you long. You've been playing the crap out of this haven't you? :)
    Can't deny that I love One Tamriel :)
    I also have the "Explorer" Title.

    To me, the game is on par with GW2 for the title of best MMO released since WoW in 2004. Maybe even a bit ahead, since I like the setting more than the sometimes too "asian" one of GW2.
    It has an atmosphere to it that most my other games don't quite pull off to the same degree. The closest too after it are SWTOR and LotRO, but they don't have the same engaging class play and a lot of other details that ESO offers. I totally agree it's by the most rock solid MMO experience since WoW, for me at least.
    Liked the game up to Tamriel One.  I hate level scaling.
    It seems like a polarizing feature that people either really like or dislike. I love it. For me it's core to making an MMO feel more like a virtual world. I like the oldschool design too, but in many ways it feels more constrictive and gamey to me. If only Secret World Legends would adopt scaling like ESO.

    When the basic squirrel levels to your supposedly super power level that is not a virtual world.
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.

    if you are strong enough people do not mess with you.  I do not like the feeling that your character is stagnate.  I do not get a since of progression.  The only one I have found I liked was WoW Legion where eventually you still out...well power stuff.
    That statement makes me think you've not leveled a character in a scaled world system because there is a sense of progression. In fact there is a better sense of progression than static worlds where your only indicator is bigger numbers.

    How is there a sense of progression when you trivialize rats in one zone but suddenly get wiped with them in the new zone because you know they suddenly got made combat skills and 10 MILLION hitpoints just for living over a zone line.

    That's on top of the fact that it's the primary contributor to fragmentation and stratification of the player base. Want to play with your friends or guildies? Nope, can't do it because they only know how to fight 10 hitpoint rats, not the super ninjas with 10 million hitpoints in the next zone. How did those rats get all those combat skills and hitpoints? Talk about immersion shattering.

    I can't think of one progression flaw with a scaling system where the issue isn't more glaring and worse in a non-scaled system.

    I get enjoying the power a non-scaled system presents. It trivializes all previous content removing all challenge. As much as people claim they want challenge clinging to systems that gut it tells otherwise and that's the kind of game world scaled systems create.

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making.  

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  

    Just stop talking, it's apparent to everyone here you have no idea what you're talking about.  I doubt you've played ESO more than a few hours.

    I doubt I care what you think.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,597
    Horusra said:

    While over generalized the "fact" remains...that the first mobs you face are just as powerful when you are max level as when you are low level.
    Not sure if you are trolling at this point or just refusing to be wrong on the Internet, which is similar. The relative power of those mobs definitely decrease compared to yours. Pretending anything else is lying.

    Horusra said:

    I am sitting at 378 CP and all desire to play is gone because all I am doing is playing storylines cause I feel my character is not progressing.
    Either you are lying, or your character specialization REALLY sucks donkey balls. Your choice.
    QuarterStackYashaX
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 7700k (4.80ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z270X-UltraGaming - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 4K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Pioneer VSX-322 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,755
    Horusra said:
    Torval said:
    Horusra said:


    if you are strong enough people do not mess with you.  I do not like the feeling that your character is stagnate.  I do not get a since of progression.  The only one I have found I liked was WoW Legion where eventually you still out...well power stuff.
    That statement makes me think you've not leveled a character in a scaled world system because there is a sense of progression. In fact there is a better sense of progression than static worlds where your only indicator is bigger numbers.

    <snip for space>

    I have never played a game where basic rats wiped me in the next zone.  That is a strawman generalization you are making.  

    In a scaled system there is no sense of progress.  Your character is as weak today as he is tomorrow.  Nothing changes.  You get more flashy skills...whoopee.  You still get owned by the very first creature you ever met in the game.  It makes the world feel static.  

    Just stop talking, it's apparent to everyone here you have no idea what you're talking about.  I doubt you've played ESO more than a few hours.
    How you describe game play leads me to think you've not leveled a character in a scaled world system. I never said you didn't play. That would be a crazy thing to claim.

    This is just my steam hours. Notice the second entry is > 3.

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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,909
    Torval said:
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.
    Well, to be fair should levelbased MMOs really do more like D&D and have a base level for animals and monsters. Of course while a goblingenerally would have a low level a named goblin could be far higher but it gives consistency to the game.

    Instead of finding wolfs with higher and higher level in each zone you could have wild dog (lvl 5), wolf (lvl 20), Warg (lvl 40) and Dire wolf (lvl 60) as well as some tougher named ones. It would help immersion and actually make it seems more like you are going from zero to hero. 

    Personally don't I mind the downleveling mechanics since it gives me more zones to spend time in instead of making most of the game grey as I progress but I am just pointing out that there are other senseible solutions. And even with downleveling does the D&D mechamics make sense, you should not really run into huge dragons until near the levelcap even if you use scaling.

    Personally would I prefer a far lower powergap and fewer levels as well but that is just me.
    Torval
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,755
    Loke666 said:
    Torval said:
    That's in non-scaling worlds all the time. The squirrel in the starting zone is weak. The squirrel in the current zone has 10 million hitpoints, because that makes sense and lends to immersion. Just 50 feet away, across the zone line, a squirrel can wreck you. And that adds to the feeling of immersion and a virtual world how?

    Or how about how you can go through an old gray zone and the orc camp that would attack you on site just goes about milling in the same circular route like you don't even exist. That is certainly not a virtual world either.
    Well, to be fair should levelbased MMOs really do more like D&D and have a base level for animals and monsters. Of course while a goblingenerally would have a low level a named goblin could be far higher but it gives consistency to the game.

    Instead of finding wolfs with higher and higher level in each zone you could have wild dog (lvl 5), wolf (lvl 20), Warg (lvl 40) and Dire wolf (lvl 60) as well as some tougher named ones. It would help immersion and actually make it seems more like you are going from zero to hero. 

    Personally don't I mind the downleveling mechanics since it gives me more zones to spend time in instead of making most of the game grey as I progress but I am just pointing out that there are other senseible solutions. And even with downleveling does the D&D mechamics make sense, you should not really run into huge dragons until near the levelcap even if you use scaling.

    Personally would I prefer a far lower powergap and fewer levels as well but that is just me.

    In MMOs those tend to just be reskins of a mob with the most superficial differences. In D&D monsters typically had a bit more depth to their purpose and power level. In D&D you might have a level 0 dog that is a "critter" and a level 4 war hound. Same animal different power level based on the narrative context not arbitrary map zone boundaries.

    I also thought about AD&D when arguing over these points and how it sort of generated this design and then how online games over-extended it. It worked in AD&D because the entire power curve of the campaign was defined in a bubble. Characters level up to the cap the DM decide and  there are consequence in PnP when character powers start to exceed that cap, like they get retired or move to NPC status.

    With MMOs that ceiling keeps getting extended time and again until the entire world balance is out order. So what happens next? They revise the combat formulas and class abilities/structure in an attempt to reshape it. It eventually gets distorted and perverted into something else.

    In many PnP systems with a defined and confined power curve even low level mobs can damage you in numbers. There are systems in place to reduce trivializing content. No good DM would allow that even if they aren't written into the rules.
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  • KajidourdenKajidourden Panama City, FLMember RarePosts: 1,462
    Horusra said:

    While over generalized the "fact" remains...that the first mobs you face are just as powerful when you are max level as when you are low level.
    Not sure if you are trolling at this point or just refusing to be wrong on the Internet, which is similar. The relative power of those mobs definitely decrease compared to yours. Pretending anything else is lying.

    Horusra said:

    I am sitting at 378 CP and all desire to play is gone because all I am doing is playing storylines cause I feel my character is not progressing.
    Either you are lying, or your character specialization REALLY sucks donkey balls. Your choice.

    ^ I think I'm done feeding the troll here, its obvious they are clueless in either of those cases.  If they are getting owned by starter zone mobs at CP 360  then they are not very bright because you can get away with pretty much anything anywhere except Craglorn for over-world.
    QuarterStackJean-Luc_PicardYashaX
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 267
    edited October 16
    Horusra said:

    While over generalized the "fact" remains...that the first mobs you face are just as powerful when you are max level as when you are low level.
    Not sure if you are trolling at this point or just refusing to be wrong on the Internet, which is similar. The relative power of those mobs definitely decrease compared to yours. Pretending anything else is lying.

    Horusra said:

    I am sitting at 378 CP and all desire to play is gone because all I am doing is playing storylines cause I feel my character is not progressing.
    Either you are lying, or your character specialization REALLY sucks donkey balls. Your choice.

    ^ I think I'm done feeding the troll here, its obvious they are clueless in either of those cases.  If they are getting owned by starter zone mobs at CP 360  then they are not very bright because you can get away with pretty much anything anywhere except Craglorn for over-world.
    Yeah I got the same impression. It's one of those cases where the more Horusra says, the more it becomes clear they're either making stuff up/trolling, or somehow stumbled their way to 378CP without learning how to gear/build/play their character. Maybe they were carried.
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
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