One of the largest whales in CoE turns on the blatant P2W scheme and asks for changes

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Comments

  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 508
    Renoaku said:
    Meh, real money games are cool for those that like it (Those Entropia and Second Life fans out there.) but this one kind of took me for surprise. They have a great concept, but a cash shop of any kind would ruin it. 

    I yearn for the days of subscription only MMOs again, no cash shops, just the game and the sub. The free to get adverts shoved down your throat games have their place too, but at least those usually are built from the ground up for it and suited to all audiences generally. 

    Games with an attempt at realism and super-realism (art definitions) really don't have a place for it. Like CoE here. It's understandable from a business perspective, but in an art perspective it's total garbage. Stuff like this takes it from realism to surrealism and comic art (Like when TERA decided to open a cash shop with cartoon props in what was supposed to be a serious atmosphere game, it killed it for a lot of people.)
    Cash shops for real money are not a problem in video games its the way (COE) and other similar games are developed, and run their cash shops that is the problem doing ridiculous things in a cash shop, selling totally Pay 2 Win / Pay 2 Enjoy packs ruins a game for example.

    Entropia & Second life are examples of good games especially Linden Lab new project it, but speaking about more successful games would be (World OF Warcraft)...

    Games with successful Cash Shops

    Overwatch
    World OF Warcraft
    League OF Legends
    DOTA 2
    (I would include Smite but due to limited skins it meets the list as Pay 2 Enjoy)
    Second Life
    Entropia
    EVE Online

    Just my small  list that uses Real Money and is successful without being pay 2 Win or Pay 2 enjoy.
    Well, successful and welcomed are pretty different. Kind of part of the age we live in now, kids likely haven't seen games without advertisements and they soon will be adults, it's a pretty odd difference from what we're all used to seeing in what is still a very young industry and technology. 

    I shouldn't have been as aggressive in my sentence structure, it came out I was bashing both, when trying to draw a merited middle ground. 

    Death stalks me... Well, figuratively that is. I get killed and people take my stuff.

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,162
    Im glad someone like Slapshot has the patience to keep tearing this game a new asshole. Ive already wrote the whole thing off as just one gigantic asshole, cbf'ed. 
    Oh, yeah, for sure.  We should all be thankful that somebody invests so much time and energy towards tearing down a project because they don't like it ... what an admirable goal!
    Presenting the truth about a game is admireable.
    Flat out lying and defending the game because you are a fanatic is what we should loath.

    And you yourself have done more than just 1 questionable thing when it comes to this project.
    You lost your objectivity.
    GdemamiSlapshot1188DistopiaGaendricYashaX
  • KavorkaKavorka GothenburgMember UncommonPosts: 8
    Presenting the truth? what makes it 'truth', because you agree with it?

    The P2W discussion is a good example why it isn't as simple as that

    As far as i know P2W is about getting power for money, and when that power is gone you can buy more power, but in CoE you can't. The cash shop is temporary and everything you buy can/will be lost and you can't get it back by paying for it again, so how is it P2W? 

    Genuine question
    unfilteredJWaugustgraceYashaX
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,162
    Kavorka said:
    Presenting the truth? what makes it 'truth', because you agree with it?

    The P2W discussion is a good example why it isn't as simple as that

    As far as i know P2W is about getting power for money, and when that power is gone you can buy more power, but in CoE you can't. The cash shop is temporary and everything you buy can/will be lost and you can't get it back by paying for it again, so how is it P2W? 

    Genuine question
    "The cash shop is temporary"
    It is both sad and shocking that you really believe that.
    Gdemamiholdenfiveaugustgrace
  • KavorkaKavorka GothenburgMember UncommonPosts: 8
    have they changed their entire game design and made the cash shop permanent?

    if they haven't you really don't have a valid point there, it's just your cynical belief.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,201
    Kavorka said:
    Presenting the truth? what makes it 'truth', because you agree with it?

    The P2W discussion is a good example why it isn't as simple as that

    As far as i know P2W is about getting power for money, and when that power is gone you can buy more power, but in CoE you can't. The cash shop is temporary and everything you buy can/will be lost and you can't get it back by paying for it again, so how is it P2W? 

    Genuine question
    There is an entire thread on the subject here.  No need to rehash.  This is the MOST P2W concept I have ever seen.   The developer's "defense" is that it's only for 5% of the population and the rest who join at launch wont even notice.  That kind of arrogance is prevalent throughout the community.   It's predicated on treating the 5% like Kings (literally) and then magically assuming that the population will grow a MINIMUM of 2000% at launch to provide the "commoners" for the elite to rule over.   Hell... even just 2 days ago they kicked it up ANOTHER notch and let you spend $10 to buy tokens that will grow the size of your towns and villages.

    Heck, even one of the BIGGEST Whales.. Adam.. posted that he understood the game was P2W from the beginning but that he was "fine with CoE's form of Pay to Win because it was surmountable in game".  He felt the latest increases such as buying rare and legendary items, resources, castles and blueprints were making the advantages insurmountable.  So feel free to argue about the degree of P2W and whether its now reached the insurmountable threshold, but it's not even debatable that it's blatantly P2W.
    GdemamiYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • KavorkaKavorka GothenburgMember UncommonPosts: 8
    Kavorka said:
    Presenting the truth? what makes it 'truth', because you agree with it?

    The P2W discussion is a good example why it isn't as simple as that

    As far as i know P2W is about getting power for money, and when that power is gone you can buy more power, but in CoE you can't. The cash shop is temporary and everything you buy can/will be lost and you can't get it back by paying for it again, so how is it P2W? 

    Genuine question
    There is an entire thread on the subject here.  No need to rehash.  This is the MOST P2W concept I have ever seen.   The developer's "defense" is that it's only for 5% of the population and the rest who join at launch wont even notice.  That kind of arrogance is prevalent throughout the community.   It's predicated on treating the 5% like Kings (literally) and then magically assuming that the population will grow a MINIMUM of 2000% at launch to provide the "commoners" for the elite to rule over.   Hell... even just 2 days ago they kicked it up ANOTHER notch and let you spend $10 to buy tokens that will grow the size of your towns and villages.

    Heck, even one of the BIGGEST Whales.. Adam.. posted that he understood the game was P2W from the beginning but that he was "fine with CoE's form of Pay to Win because it was surmountable in game".  He felt the latest increases such as buying rare and legendary items, resources, castles and blueprints were making the advantages insurmountable.  So feel free to argue about the degree of P2W and whether its now reached the insurmountable threshold, but it's not even debatable that it's blatantly P2W.
    Like you said, it's the same concept they have had from the beginning (and since there is no definition of P2W it's all just opinions). They are doing what they said they would do, fill the world with players and build up a world that is 'ready' for the next wave of players. They didn't lie and say this would be just another standard mmorpg and then went and changed everything, i feel they where pretty clear this would be something new.

    It's pretty obvious you are not interested in playing this game and they haven't scammed anyone, so i have to ask why are you so active on this forum?

    It says alot about Adam and his way of thinking that he saw the game as P2W from the start. There are other 'whales' that doesn't agree with him at all, so why use his words as the truth of the matter?

    YashaX
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,201
    Kavorka said:


    It says alot about Adam and his way of thinking that he saw the game as P2W from the start. There are other 'whales' that doesn't agree with him at all, so why use his words as the truth of the matter?

    I use the fact that the thread was 19 pages long and received +106 rating as evidence of support within the community.  Nothing more or less.

    GdemamiYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Im glad someone like Slapshot has the patience to keep tearing this game a new asshole. Ive already wrote the whole thing off as just one gigantic asshole, cbf'ed. 
    Oh, yeah, for sure.  We should all be thankful that somebody invests so much time and energy towards tearing down a project because they don't like it ... what an admirable goal!
    This is coming from the person who already said they didn't know this information and that it caused you to re-evaluate your position on the game, that's more irony than the upgraded forums are designed to handle. Yes, you, of all people, should be thankful that someone (anyone) is investing their time and energy into researching the game for you, since you were obviously supporting it without doing so.  
    Slapshot1188unfilteredJWYashaX
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Dakeru said:
    Im glad someone like Slapshot has the patience to keep tearing this game a new asshole. Ive already wrote the whole thing off as just one gigantic asshole, cbf'ed. 
    Oh, yeah, for sure.  We should all be thankful that somebody invests so much time and energy towards tearing down a project because they don't like it ... what an admirable goal!
    Presenting the truth about a game is admireable.
    Flat out lying and defending the game because you are a fanatic is what we should loath.

    And you yourself have done more than just 1 questionable thing when it comes to this project.
    You lost your objectivity.
    What truth? there is no game to see in practice, therefor we do not know how all of this will play out. Don't mistake confirmation bias for truth. 
    TorvalYashaX

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • KavorkaKavorka GothenburgMember UncommonPosts: 8
    Kavorka said:


    It says alot about Adam and his way of thinking that he saw the game as P2W from the start. There are other 'whales' that doesn't agree with him at all, so why use his words as the truth of the matter?

    I use the fact that the thread was 19 pages long and received +106 rating as evidence of support within the community.  Nothing more or less.

    and Caspians reply has +134, not that any of those ratings means much

    just a quick glance at all your other threads make it pretty obvious you attack anything that caspian say, so let's not pretend you wouldn't have made this thread even if Adams post had 0 rating.

    do you feel like replying to the other part of my post?


    DistopiaSlapshot1188Torval
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,812
    edited May 23
    Im glad someone like Slapshot has the patience to keep tearing this game a new asshole. Ive already wrote the whole thing off as just one gigantic asshole, cbf'ed. 
    Oh, yeah, for sure.  We should all be thankful that somebody invests so much time and energy towards tearing down a project because they don't like it ... what an admirable goal!
    This is coming from the person who already said they didn't know this information and that it caused you to re-evaluate your position on the game, that's more irony than the upgraded forums are designed to handle. Yes, you, of all people, should be thankful that someone (anyone) is investing their time and energy into researching the game for you, since you were obviously supporting it without doing so.  
    I still support the game just not this particular design decision, although now that I've read Caspian's explanation I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt to see how it plays out.  And no, I'm not thankful for people who consistently push the narrative of "See, I told you this game was trash!".  Sharing information is helpful and appreciated; the bullshit narrative that does no good for anyone is not.
    Post edited by SedrynTyros on
    DistopiaholdenfiveYashaX
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,201
    Kavorka said:

    just a quick glance at all your other threads make it pretty obvious you attack anything that caspian say, so let's not pretend you wouldn't have made this thread even if Adams post had 0 rating.




    Actually... if you actually DID look you would see that I don't "attack" the vast majority of what Caspien says.  I probably comment on less than 1% of it.   Once the bullshit meter goes off, I post. Pretty simple concept.
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Im glad someone like Slapshot has the patience to keep tearing this game a new asshole. Ive already wrote the whole thing off as just one gigantic asshole, cbf'ed. 
    Oh, yeah, for sure.  We should all be thankful that somebody invests so much time and energy towards tearing down a project because they don't like it ... what an admirable goal!
    This is coming from the person who already said they didn't know this information and that it caused you to re-evaluate your position on the game, that's more irony than the upgraded forums are designed to handle. Yes, you, of all people, should be thankful that someone (anyone) is investing their time and energy into researching the game for you, since you were obviously supporting it without doing so.  
    I still support the game just not this particular design design, although now that I've read Caspian's explanation I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt to see how it plays out.  And no, I'm not thankful for people who consistently push the narrative of "See, I told you this game was trash!".  Sharing information is helpful and appreciated; the bullshit narrative that does no good for anyone is not.
    So yesterday or whenever you were all doom and gloom 'this decision will destroy the game' but now because Caspian said something you've completely flipped on that perspective and you're all 'ho hum we'll see how it goes'. And even though this thread gave you really good information that you deemed important, according to your prior statements, now it's just a complete waste of time because of the messenger. lol This is what we call in politics a partisan bias, you're not concerned with actual facts as much as you are with who said what. And you have an emotional allegience with Caspian, which seems to override your own judgements. I'm really shocked to hear that.

    You're clearly not even attempting to conceal your narrative, because the chronology of your posts on this thread flies in the face of all reason. I fail to see how one bias is more beneficial than another. But maybe you could tell us, being from the school of Caspian, he thinks it's wrong to openly dislike projects because it might hit developers (him) in the wallet. On second thought, I take that back, it is incredibly beneficial to people to continue to hate on this game, they need to know what kind of scumbags they're dealing with.
    GdemamiYashaXDistopia
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,162
    Distopia said:
    Dakeru said:
    Im glad someone like Slapshot has the patience to keep tearing this game a new asshole. Ive already wrote the whole thing off as just one gigantic asshole, cbf'ed. 
    Oh, yeah, for sure.  We should all be thankful that somebody invests so much time and energy towards tearing down a project because they don't like it ... what an admirable goal!
    Presenting the truth about a game is admireable.
    Flat out lying and defending the game because you are a fanatic is what we should loath.

    And you yourself have done more than just 1 questionable thing when it comes to this project.
    You lost your objectivity.
    What truth? there is no game to see in practice, therefor we do not know how all of this will play out. Don't mistake confirmation bias for truth. 
    The truth of him quoting people but no matter if he quotes top donators or even Caspian himself he always get's the "you are spreading misinformation" answer by die hard fans.

    "This is what Caspian himself said"
    -Doesn't matter, you have no idea!
    GdemamiSlapshot1188KyleranYashaXDistopia
  • MrTugglesMrTuggles bolivar, OHMember UncommonPosts: 134
    kjempff said:
    Pay to win a game that is at this point mostly an idea and a future (probably unrealistic) set of features. You know nothing about how all those promises will be realised or play in a possibly finished game.

    I do not understand the mentality of accepting p2w in any multiplayer game, but p2w for game that is theoretical, that is so far out I have no words.
    There has actually been quite a bit of information released about how they are going about building the game, features, etc. The back end system that they are building seems pretty amazing with how it will allow them to compartmentalize and test features onto the pre-alpha game. They have done things the way they have to allow the community who backed the game to help influence how things are built from pre-alpha onward. 



    It seems that this tends to happen with every new game that gets released. You get a core group of "haters" on the MMORPG forums who continually try to dictate the narrative by snipping certain forum posts, announcements, etc instead of actually providing the entire story. Kind of like how the media today is highly biased either one way or the other.

    To anyone who is interested in the game: Go look at the forums, read the Development Journals, read the forums at CoE and build your own perspective of the game instead of allowing a certain few people to continually paint a picture that isn't quite as clear as they make it seem on these forums.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,447
    Tiamat64 said:
    Kyleran said:
    Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.


    Were it not for the fact that the developers drop by every once in a while to defend things as not pay-to-win, I'd be under the impression that they had already gone full monty on the P2W aspect by now.

    ...actually, I still am.
    The game has had a pay for big advantage from the get go.
    KyleranYashaX
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,447
    Rhoklaw said:
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    ...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.

    Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
    I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.

    Just by what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.
    Really? TSR and AD&D brought microstransactions to gaming. In addition to this "short" list of rule books and manuals (there are well over a hundred in the link):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons_rulebooks

    Then there was the Dragon Magazine subscription, the minatures, dice, and hex and graph paper.

    That was just AD&D. Add on other TSR titles (which were cheaper by far) Top Secret, Gamma World, Boot Hill, etc. and it go more expensive. Add in Marc Miller and GDW's MegaTraveller (just as expensive as AD&D) and ICE/RoleMaster and gaming has always been an expensive hobby.

    I'm not even going to touch the ludicrous NIMBY argument about competition because MMORPGs have been competitive since their inception as well.

    Of course if you read all that through these:


    AD&D was free like the cooperative mmorpg love.
    blueturtle13Gdemami
    Notice: The artist or album content may be offensive or controversial.
    Avatar Artist: Flesh For Lulu
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,201
    Torval said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    ...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.

    Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
    I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.

    Just by what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.
    Really? TSR and AD&D brought microstransactions to gaming. In addition to this "short" list of rule books and manuals (there are well over a hundred in the link):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons_rulebooks

    Then there was the Dragon Magazine subscription, the minatures, dice, and hex and graph paper.

    That was just AD&D. Add on other TSR titles (which were cheaper by far) Top Secret, Gamma World, Boot Hill, etc. and it go more expensive. Add in Marc Miller and GDW's MegaTraveller (just as expensive as AD&D) and ICE/RoleMaster and gaming has always been an expensive hobby.

    I'm not even going to touch the ludicrous NIMBY argument about competition because MMORPGs have been competitive since their inception as well.

    Of course if you read all that through these:


    AD&D was free like the cooperative mmorpg love.
    This is true from a certain perspective.   I used to walk miles to get to the local hobby store (uphill both ways) to check to see if new modules came in.  I just recently found a whole box of old D&D stuff... maybe it's worth something to a collector!

    But that's not really quite the same.   A purchase of a rulebook, or a module or whatever was really a purchase for the whole group.  If I bought                                                                               


    the whole group would go through it.  I wasn't buying an advantage that the rest of the group didn't have.  Maybe I have lost the most recent train of conversation but the thread is about P2W in CoE, and while I agree there were micro-transaction when I played D&D I don't think that they were relevant to the conversation about P2W...

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,447
    Distopia said:


    A MMO is the equivalent of a match in RL sports. But unlike RL sports, P2W MMO's allow the players to spend vast amounts of money to directly influence the outcome of the match.


    I completely disagree that a MMO is like a sporting match... Your statement makes these games sound like an e-sport. That isn't the case at all, as there is nothing in Open World PVP that promotes a fair playing field,  OWPVP is the home of gank and run and the Zerg. It's almost always a mismatched fight. BE it in lvls or player numbers/tactics. 

    How can such an environment be compared to a sports match, where you yourself said all sports consist of rules to support an environment of fair play? If anything is a strawman it's that this is ever going to be a competitive environment. It's more akin to a war, use whatever method wins....


    My argument was directed at those who were trying to justify P2W in MMO's by claiming that RL sports were already P2W. I was not trying to imply that MMO's were an e-sport.

    When 2 teams take to the field in a professional sporting match, neither side is allowed an equipment advantage, or extra players or smaller goals. One team does not have 3 players that are barefoot, because they can't afford boots...

    You don't win marathons because you spent $20M on special shoes, and paying for a 5km headstart is not a thing.
    Real life sports are pay to win. How do they get players? More successful rich franchises have the best equipment, the best player picks, personal sports medicine, dieticians, trainers, facilities. Those teams that can't afford that don't have the same edge.

    This is true in every single professionally competitive sport and almost every "amateur" national or international competitive sport. Where there's money, there are people buying advantage.

    That same concept extends from professional sports to amateur sports to the hobbyist. Fishing, hunting, off-roading, modeling, war-gaming, TCGs, miniatures/dioramas, and so many others.

    Money matters at the competitive levels. Paying to win hasn't ever really meant buying the win. It's a metaphor for paying for a measurable advantage over others.
    GdemamiCogohi
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  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,929
    Torval said:
    Distopia said:


    A MMO is the equivalent of a match in RL sports. But unlike RL sports, P2W MMO's allow the players to spend vast amounts of money to directly influence the outcome of the match.


    I completely disagree that a MMO is like a sporting match... Your statement makes these games sound like an e-sport. That isn't the case at all, as there is nothing in Open World PVP that promotes a fair playing field,  OWPVP is the home of gank and run and the Zerg. It's almost always a mismatched fight. BE it in lvls or player numbers/tactics. 

    How can such an environment be compared to a sports match, where you yourself said all sports consist of rules to support an environment of fair play? If anything is a strawman it's that this is ever going to be a competitive environment. It's more akin to a war, use whatever method wins....


    My argument was directed at those who were trying to justify P2W in MMO's by claiming that RL sports were already P2W. I was not trying to imply that MMO's were an e-sport.

    When 2 teams take to the field in a professional sporting match, neither side is allowed an equipment advantage, or extra players or smaller goals. One team does not have 3 players that are barefoot, because they can't afford boots...

    You don't win marathons because you spent $20M on special shoes, and paying for a 5km headstart is not a thing.
    Real life sports are pay to win. How do they get players? More successful rich franchises have the best equipment, the best player picks, personal sports medicine, dieticians, trainers, facilities. Those teams that can't afford that don't have the same edge.

    This is true in every single professionally competitive sport and almost every "amateur" national or international competitive sport. Where there's money, there are people buying advantage.

    That same concept extends from professional sports to amateur sports to the hobbyist. Fishing, hunting, off-roading, modeling, war-gaming, TCGs, miniatures/dioramas, and so many others.

    Money matters at the competitive levels. Paying to win hasn't ever really meant buying the win. It's a metaphor for paying for a measurable advantage over others.
    Right. And basketball, football and hockey all have salary caps and revenue sharing precisely because they recognize that fans want to watch a game that has a more even playing field and that the integrity of competition is a worthwhile goal. Baseball is the one exception to this in NA.

    Yes, the richer teams can also add intangibles that do not fall under "salary" such as the professionals that you mention simply because they want to try to get any edge they can get within the rules.

    But the leagues do try to prevent the most glaring P2W elements from influencing outcomes because they understand that its something detrimental to the product.

    So getting back to gaming, any honest developer just like a sports league, should do whatever they can to remove P2W elements despite the obvious fact that the players will try to do whatever they can to get an advantage. But that's not what's happening here and in many other games. They actually encourage P2W by their design and their fundraising methods.

    Some even try to rationalize it on the basis of out of game RMT being a reality. To me that's like saying, well screw the salary cap because the rich teams are just going to buy better equipment and hire dieticians.
    YashaXGdemami
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  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    edited May 22
    Dakeru said:
    Distopia said:
    Dakeru said:
    Im glad someone like Slapshot has the patience to keep tearing this game a new asshole. Ive already wrote the whole thing off as just one gigantic asshole, cbf'ed. 
    Oh, yeah, for sure.  We should all be thankful that somebody invests so much time and energy towards tearing down a project because they don't like it ... what an admirable goal!
    Presenting the truth about a game is admireable.
    Flat out lying and defending the game because you are a fanatic is what we should loath.

    And you yourself have done more than just 1 questionable thing when it comes to this project.
    You lost your objectivity.
    What truth? there is no game to see in practice, therefor we do not know how all of this will play out. Don't mistake confirmation bias for truth. 
    The truth of him quoting people but no matter if he quotes top donators or even Caspian himself he always get's the "you are spreading misinformation" answer by die hard fans.

    "This is what Caspian himself said"
    -Doesn't matter, you have no idea!
    I was referring to the main issue here P2W... It doesn't matter who he quoted the point he's trying to sell is his P2W assertion vs the devs not P2W assertion. FOr all we know all these high rollers could be steamrolled the day the game goes live. Especially if folks know who they are in game. 


    There is no truth there yet. Oh and thanks for the WTf right back at ya:)
    Post edited by Distopia on
    holdenfive

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,367
    If its P2W the backers are happy, if its not P2W then everyone else is happy....Who do you please?
    Gdemami
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    If its P2W the backers are happy, if its not P2W then everyone else is happy....Who do you please?
    Only a small percentage are large backers. So the question is do you please a few players or the entirety of your potential playerbase? One is not sustainable...
    holdenfive

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Actually just to clarify major league baseball does have a salary cap, it's just not a hard cap. They have the competitive balance threshold set at a certain amount and for every million or so you spend over that figure the club must pay a luxury tax to the league.

    But that's really besides the point. The comparison of professional sports teams to P2W in an online game doesn't really hold up. Yes there are rich teams and there are poor teams, but all the teams have a vested interest in the league, they are symbiotic far more than they are competitive. Revenue sharing administered by the league is a huge portion of a teams overall income. As a collective they share things like merchandising and cable TV revenue. So it's not 'play to crush' the other team as much as it is 'play 2 bank'. That sort of reciprocal disposition torwards your rival is never going to be preset in an MMO, it's just never ever ever going to be part of the culture. 

    That's where the inherent naivety in this play to build bullshit the developers are trying to sell seasoned MMO players just isn't going to resonate. They actually want players to believe that all the money being spent by individual players is going to be spent in the spirit of some mutual roleplay soceity building excersize where we all are better for it? The games supporters love to chime in with shit like 'yeah well but guyz this is just for the start so we can build up our empire, THEN you can join in and you will see that the reason some dude spent $20,000 on a video game is so -you- can have fun'. Just lol. No amount of talking is going to mend the cognitive dissonance. That shit doesn't even work on paper, it's amazing this game's supporters have managed to convince themselves that it has a snowballs chance in hell of working in practice.
    Gdemami
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