One of the largest whales in CoE turns on the blatant P2W scheme and asks for changes

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Comments

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,113
    edited May 16
    When creativity in monetization is one of the earliest subjects in a project it's hard to expect anything else. 

    Paying for "lives", like old arcades, in an MMO. Because it's better for players... Said Judas to Jesus during the last supper I bet. 
    Post edited by ConstantineMerus on
    IselinDistopiaMrMelGibson
    I am a piece of carbon with a soul, wondering where I got it from. 
    - Drunken Mozart in the Desert
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Hrimnir said:
    I just can't actually, and I mean this, I can't understand why people play games that have even the slightest amount of P2W.  I mean even the slightest (and no having more bank vault pages doesn't count, I'm talking about being able to buy items that are non cosmetic, anything that boosts the speed of gains of any kind of resource, be it XP, gold, whatever).  Obviously I'm in the minority here as these games continue to do well financially so...
    I usually shy away from experiences like Archlord where items of power were the chief monetization method.  However it's pretty much impossible to play a game with "no" RMT or black market weapons going around, so there's no not playing a game with it if you're playing an MMO. The black market ensures there's always a P2W aspect, be it directly (cash shop), indirectly (gold) or black market RMT.. 


    KyleranMrMelGibsonTorval

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • donger56donger56 cleveland, IAMember RarePosts: 443
    I'm glad I stayed far away from this project. This is just another reminder of why I never back games early on any more. Show me the game first, then I'll show you the money. 
    SedrynTyrosKyleranguizicaYanocchiMrMelGibson
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,812
    donger56 said:
    I'm glad I stayed far away from this project. This is just another reminder of why I never back games early on any more. Show me the game first, then I'll show you the money. 
    I've supported this game since its Kickstarter, but I admit that I'm now disappointed in this current direction.  If they don't reverse this decision, the game is likely doomed.  And it's more than a little disconcerting to me that the developers wouldn't realize this on their own.
    KumaponDistopiaConstantineMerusSlapshot1188laseritTorval
  • acidbloodacidblood melbourneMember UncommonPosts: 613
    Sounds like just the latest example of why I will don't invest money (or generally much time) in any MMO that is even remotely pay for advantage; it may start off small, but it always seems to grow...
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,165
    All I can say is, thank goodness for Pantheon. Even though the game mechanics alone for CoE had me convinced to pledge, I'm a 100% glad I did not. This is precisely what boggles my mind. I told them, P2W = no faith in your game. Why don't developers trust in their work. ArcheAge did the exact same crap. I paid for Founder's Alpha and enjoyed the game immensely and thought I found my new home. Then release came and low and behold, they fucked it up with P2W crap.
    KyleranKefo

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,778
    edited May 16
    Hrimnir said:
    I just can't actually, and I mean this, I can't understand why people play games that have even the slightest amount of P2W.  I mean even the slightest (and no having more bank vault pages doesn't count, I'm talking about being able to buy items that are non cosmetic, anything that boosts the speed of gains of any kind of resource, be it XP, gold, whatever).  Obviously I'm in the minority here as these games continue to do well financially so...
    People spent money on stuff they enjoy, what is difficult to comprehend about it? I bet you do it yourself as well.

    However once it comes down to games, people go out of their minds if you want treat it like any other hobby....

    Like you said, it is a mnority though.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
    DistopiaKyleranLoveRemovalMachineSlapshot1188MrMelGibsonTorval
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,267
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    Rhoklaw

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,778
    edited May 16
    Kyleran said:
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    ...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.

    Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,165
    edited May 16
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    ...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.

    Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
    I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.

    Just by what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.
    Post edited by Rhoklaw on
    Xodic

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    edited May 16
    Kyleran said:
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    Not really true, at least officially... There's nothing truly controlled about it to keep it that way. This is simply a mentality a certain segment of gamers carry with them.  They're no more entitled to get their way than anyone else, nor to project their wants on anyone else.  That's up to the devs to program into the game and offer the product they want to offer.  

    Anyway... This could actually be brilliant as it offers an open environment for those wanting to compete with their wallet, as games like Entropia have. 

    In the end gaming is mostly about stroking egos, making one feel a certain way. It's nothing but an outlet. To be competitive, to feel special, to win... That's the whole point, I guess to some they feel a wallet is as good as a platform to perform from as skill. They can have their game.. For better or worse....




    Post edited by Distopia on
    Azaron_NightbladeMrMelGibsonTorval

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 806
    When selling a buy-to-play game (not just MMOs, but pretty much any game, solo or not, that you buy to play), the developers are generally forced to make a good game in order to earn their money (well, that and marketting, yoink).

    When revenues are instead based on a cash shop model, however, the focus instead becomes about how to get people to spend on the cash shop.  "Making a good game" MIGHT be a part of that, but even then, it's only a part of it.

    So when you see the game's developers focusing primarily on what they can sell (seriously, this cash shop of their's is more fleshed out and specified than anything else with their game that they've shown so far), that should instantly be waving red flags.
    Rhoklawrefo18
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,778
    Rhoklaw said:
    I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.

    Just but what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.

    You do not have to spent money on MMOs either, most of them are F2P.

    Neither I can recall organizing D&D at home was a business, a bussines that cost tens of millions to run so by your own measure your comparison is false. MMOs were always a business in the first place,  I don't know what could confuse you to think otherwise.

    Besides, like I said before, competitiveness is a non-factor.
    LoveRemovalMachineSlapshot1188holdenfive
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,165
    Gdemami said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.

    Just but what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.

    You do not have to spent money on MMOs either, most of them are F2P.

    Neither I can recall organizing D&D at home was a business, a bussines that cost tens of millions to run so by your own measure your comparison is false. MMOs were always a business in the first place,  I don't know what could confuse you to think otherwise.

    Besides, like I said before, competitiveness is a non-factor.
    I think you are getting confused somewhere along this discussion. I in no way had to open my wallet during a session of D&D to enjoy it. Just like D&D, EverQuest had an initial purchase. Such as when I bought a few D&D books or accessories in order to play the game. While EQ had a monthly fee, it was a mere $10-15 a month. Something I would probably spend on dice or character sheets. Then you had EQ expansions every few months or every year. I would consider that the same as buying a few new D&D modules.

    You know how much money people are spending in these so called F2P MMOs nowadays? I'm willing to bet the average person probably spends more in the first month of these types of P2W MMOs than I spent on my entire 15 year D&D lifespan. So no, I'm not confused. I think you are confused by thinking games like EQ were competitive. It's these F2P cash shop PvP MMOs that are competitive and for the very reason of sucking money out of the community. These aren't even RPGs anymore. Just shallow, no content epeen stroking milk machines.
    MrMelGibson

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Rhoklaw said:
    Gdemami said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.

    Just but what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.

    You do not have to spent money on MMOs either, most of them are F2P.

    Neither I can recall organizing D&D at home was a business, a bussines that cost tens of millions to run so by your own measure your comparison is false. MMOs were always a business in the first place,  I don't know what could confuse you to think otherwise.

    Besides, like I said before, competitiveness is a non-factor.
    I think you are getting confused somewhere along this discussion. I in no way had to open my wallet during a session of D&D to enjoy it. Just like D&D, EverQuest had an initial purchase. Such as when I bought a few D&D books or accessories in order to play the game. While EQ had a monthly fee, it was a mere $10-15 a month. Something I would probably spend on dice or character sheets. Then you had EQ expansions every few months or every year. I would consider that the same as buying a few new D&D modules.

    You know how much money people are spending in these so called F2P MMOs nowadays? I'm willing to bet the average person probably spends more in the first month of these types of P2W MMOs than I spent on my entire 15 year D&D lifespan. So no, I'm not confused. I think you are confused by thinking games like EQ were competitive. It's these F2P cash shop PvP MMOs that are competitive and for the very reason of sucking money out of the community. These aren't even RPGs anymore. Just shallow, no content epeen stroking milk machines.
    THe average player would be the majority, which I'd bet the majority spend nothing or very little on most of the f2p games they DL. 
    Azaron_NightbladeMrMelGibson

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Rhoklaw said:
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    ...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.

    Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
    I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.

    Just by what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.
    Surely you can't ignore the types who put thousands into their table top or CCG gaming to gain an edge in battles. Most hobbies have these huge needless money sinks to further your "devotion" with. Like D&D with all of it's extras one can purchase to run an even "better" session. 

    You also can't ignore most of them start out just as this genre did with EQ and a few others, experimenting with what was or could be in demand in order to monetize. This is all normal in any typical luxury.  Players themselves showed very clearly not only could access be monetized, so could luxuries. They sold it between themselves long before any publisher got in on it. 


    Azaron_Nightblade

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,778
    edited May 16
    Distopia said:
    Surely you can't ignore...
    Surely he can, he just did. If it doesn't fit his "no content epeen stroking milk machines" agenda, it will be discarded.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,195
    Tiamat64 said:
    Kyleran said:
    Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.


    Were it not for the fact that the developers drop by every once in a while to defend things as not pay-to-win, I'd be under the impression that they had already gone full monty on the P2W aspect by now.

    ...actually, I still am.
    You mean Pay to Build?   Apparently they feel that changing the last word makes a big difference :)
    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,195
    donger56 said:
    I'm glad I stayed far away from this project. This is just another reminder of why I never back games early on any more. Show me the game first, then I'll show you the money. 
    I've supported this game since its Kickstarter, but I admit that I'm now disappointed in this current direction.  If they don't reverse this decision, the game is likely doomed.  And it's more than a little disconcerting to me that the developers wouldn't realize this on their own.
    Welcome aboard!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,165
    edited May 16
    Gdemami said:
    Distopia said:
    Surely you can't ignore...
    Surely he can, he just did. If it doesn't fit his "no content epeen stroking milk machines" agenda, it will be discarded.
    @Distopia is talking about competitive CCG or even table top games like Warhammer which are nothing like Dungeons and Dragons. If you are going to make strawman arguments in order to validate your agenda, you are doing a smash up job of it. As you can tell, he didn't elaborate on that so called "better" session which does not equate to a P2W atmosphere.

    Dungeons and Dragons was never designed as a P2W game, ever. MMORPGs were never designed with a P2W approach back in the day. UO, EQ, AC, Shadowbane, DAoC all had PvP available and not one of those games had any intention of creating a wallet induced game play imbalance.

    So, if you are going to sit there and argue that todays MMORPGs, specifically the F2P cash shop P2W crap like ArcheAge, BDO and this little gem CoE are not prime examples of what I and everyone else are aruging about, than I'm just going to have agree to disagree. Today's MMORPGs are failing miserably at game play in exchange for more money and cheap gimmicks that take advantage of human's competitive nature.
    Post edited by Rhoklaw on
    KyleranLoveRemovalMachine

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member UncommonPosts: 916
    donger56 said:
    I'm glad I stayed far away from this project. This is just another reminder of why I never back games early on any more. Show me the game first, then I'll show you the money. 
    I've supported this game since its Kickstarter, but I admit that I'm now disappointed in this current direction.  If they don't reverse this decision, the game is likely doomed.  And it's more than a little disconcerting to me that the developers wouldn't realize this on their own.
    Maybe the don't care as they never planned to release a game anyway. All I see is devs who saw Chris Roberts literally making money hand over fist for delivering nothing and decided they could do the same.
    GeezerGamerrefo18Rhoklaw
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,267
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
    ...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.

    Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
    Spending extra money taints competitive endeavours such as sports or gaming, while having little to no impact on non-competitive "hobbies"

    In fact, we generally put tiers in place, calling sports with high dollar spending "professional" and even there sometimes put salary caps in place to prevent teams with the most money from always dominating the rest.

    Amateur sports have always had limits on what can be spent, atheletes normally cannot be paid, universities have scholarship caps, etc.  

    In fact, when MMOs charged everyone the same price for box prices, monthly subs and expansions you could say they had a spending cap of a sorts, which these days has long since been tossed away.

    So has any semblence of competitive fairness along the way.


    IselinYashaXrefo18Rhoklaw

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,267
    edited May 16
    Tiamat64 said:
    Kyleran said:
    Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.


    Were it not for the fact that the developers drop by every once in a while to defend things as not pay-to-win, I'd be under the impression that they had already gone full monty on the P2W aspect by now.

    ...actually, I still am.
    You mean Pay to Build?   Apparently they feel that changing the last word makes a big difference :)
    Modern "Newspeak" at its finest. 
    Post edited by Kyleran on

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • VandarixVandarix Cincinnati, OHMember UncommonPosts: 124
    Nearly bought into this game when it first went on kickstarter. So glad I didn't.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko JohannesburgMember EpicPosts: 6,541
    I see many strawmen here alleging that RL sports and hobbies are no different from modern P2W MMO's.

    What complete and utter rubbish.

    If that were the case in sports, one team in a football match would be paying for "early access" to the field, so they can score a few goals while the other team watches. It's OK isn't it, they'll just be slightly ahead, the other team can still beat them once everyone is allowed on the field, not so ?

    And in professional golf, nobody would mind if one wealthy player used a driver with a small rocket-boost attached ? And his own ball with a built-in gyroscopic stabiliser ?

    Of course not...

    All competitive sports and hobbies have rules that strive to ensure that matches are as fair and balanced as possible to all competitors. Cheaters get lifetime bans and are stripped of any titles they earned illegally.

    A MMO is the equivalent of a match in RL sports. But unlike RL sports, P2W MMO's allow the players to spend vast amounts of money to directly influence the outcome of the match.
    WellspringYashaX
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