CoE plans to allow RMT(gold sellers) during the live game

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,413
    edited May 4
    SpottyGekko said:Torval said:

    If a game is up front about it then what's the problem?
    I think Entropia Universe is horrible. The real money virtual world sales and their whole monetization scheme rubs me the wrong way. So I don't play it. And while I may comment now and again about how I feel, I certainly don't go on long vendettas and rampage campaigns.
    ...




    The problem is that CoE were NOT upfront about it.

    Nowhere on their KS page will you see them stating that they will allow full-blown RMT in the game. They presented themselves as a "normal" MMO, and normal MMO's usually have a strict anti-RMT policy.

    I'm sure this won't be the last "Oh, by the way, we're also going to...." moment for CoE. They seem to be full of "little surprises"...


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    And now more people learn why they're not suited to early development. Nothing is written in stone for the early adopter. But they are being up front and not trying to hide the choice so when the game launches everyone will know that they sanction RMT and sold people $10k kingdoms. Believe it or not there are people who aren't concerned about those things.

    I don't think RMT has a positive effect on the industry. I think the effects are more mixed than some might realize or understand, but overall I agree it's a bad thing.

    However, I don't think the position of this project or Entropia changes that affect. It fits the demographic that it suits but it doesn't change the overall effect of third party rmt on the industry at all. Nothing has changed or swayed that. Them changing position and spending millions annually trying to combat it will change anything either.

    If enough people are on board to have games run this way then they should be able to have the game they want to play.

    edit: oh mmorpg, you really need to fix the formatting issues with Vanilla or file a support ticket. It's getting, cray cray.
    Post edited by Torval on
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  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,156




    - With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice. 



    This is just vague nonsense.

    This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.

    I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,419
    edited May 4
    Who has the image of the face palm through 3 faces? It seems perfect for this team's sense of reality.

    But I guess they can say whatever they want. Its been pretty obvious since last year that this game isn't gonna get made.
    Post edited by Albatroes on
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 12

    Dakeru said:







    - With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice. 





    This is just vague nonsense.

    This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.

    I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.

    Trump and CoE? Hmm, I don't fail to see the comparison but I guess you do.  Now if you would actually explain to me how you figure it is Vague Nonsense than I might be able to debate the issue with you.

    It has been a known fact as to the game mechanices and has been for some time. If you have a source that can prove me wrong I am more then willing to take a look at it. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 2,400




    Dakeru said:










    - With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice. 







    This is just vague nonsense.

    This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.

    I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.


    Trump and CoE? Hmm, I don't fail to see the comparison but I guess you do.  Now if you would actually explain to me how you figure it is Vague Nonsense than I might be able to debate the issue with you.

    It has been a known fact as to the game mechanices and has been for some time. If you have a source that can prove me wrong I am more then willing to take a look at it. 


    In all fairness to the overall point he was making, though, crafting in others games is a simulation of experimentation, lessons, and practice.  Experimentation and practice, specifically, will inevitably lead to "wasted resources" in the sense that, while experimenting and practicing, you will inevitably create some less than useful end products.  The resources going into that aren't then available to use on the next attempt.

    I'm purely speaking to your quoted comment here, so if there's some nuance to the crafting system that somehow ensures any item resulting from an experiment or practice run is equally useful and/or can be recycled to further progress in some way, that could obviously change things.

    image
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,156
    Well I guess "learning through experimentation" says it all.
    Who needs details that describe how mechanics really work when you can just put a vague meaningless line to lure in more gullible people?
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 12









    Dakeru said:













    - With the finite resources, crafting will be completely different than it is in other MMOs. For example, you don't keep collecting and wasting resources to improve your skill, but rather you learn through experimentation, lessons, and practice. 









    This is just vague nonsense.

    This is the same bullshit as Trump declaring that he will remove Obamacare and when he finally brings the details to the table it's so bad that not even his own people want anything to do with it.

    I really have no idea how people can be so gullible.. it's like the last 10 years of overpromising features in games haven't happen.



    Trump and CoE? Hmm, I don't fail to see the comparison but I guess you do.  Now if you would actually explain to me how you figure it is Vague Nonsense than I might be able to debate the issue with you.

    It has been a known fact as to the game mechanices and has been for some time. If you have a source that can prove me wrong I am more then willing to take a look at it. 




    In all fairness to the overall point he was making, though, crafting in others games is a simulation of experimentation, lessons, and practice.  Experimentation and practice, specifically, will inevitably lead to "wasted resources" in the sense that, while experimenting and practicing, you will inevitably create some less than useful end products.  The resources going into that aren't then available to use on the next attempt.

    I'm purely speaking to your quoted comment here, so if there's some nuance to the crafting system that somehow ensures any item resulting from an experiment or practice run is equally useful and/or can be recycled to further progress in some way, that could obviously change things.

    I respect your input, and that is the great thing about communicating through text. It is not always taken as it is meant.  

    Let me try to clarify. Much like the real world resources, resources can and will be re-used in Elyria. In fact, it is encouraged through the skill progression. CoE's system is not set up to have to gather massive amounts of resources and keep making the same thing over and over to improve your skill. When in fact, if you just keep attempting to do the same thing repetitively, you will not expand your knowledge in that Skill at all. 

    Much of Chronicles of Elyria's design is based off the real world as opposed to the instant gratification of most MMOs out there today. Gathering resources and things of that nature will not be nearly as simplified. 
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 806
    Hopefully this will teach a lot of early supporters who are against a compromised in-game economy a lesson to be more wary about giving games early support before the final details come in.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,712
    Everyone knows a game can change drastically from plan, alpha, beta, to launch.  Whoever believes any game will be exactly like described in the initial planning stage shouldn't believe the hype.  If you want to invest in a game at least wait till beta when you know more of how a game will really be.

    "Change is the only constant."

  • genaknoscgenaknosc Member UncommonPosts: 81
    edited May 4




    Beyond the over the top Buy 2 King crowdfunding and the 3 month no-wipe headstart, it appears that they also plan to allow RMT after launch.  Here is a link to the discussion on their official forums.  If this is out of date or there is a clarification please post it in this thread.

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/15050/clarification-on-rmt?page=2#post157123

    Caspian - Today at 9:30 PM When it comes to selling in-game items in a real-world market we effectively have two choices. We can spend countless hours and resources on trying to stop and track people making money off their in-game items, or we can accept that their time has value to them. If people have a lot of time, but little money, want to use that as a way to create in-game items which they then sell to other players who have disposable income but less free-time, we view that as a win-win.





    So I guess CoE dev team doesn't realize that allowing RMT they open themselves up to investigation and potential law suits related to alleged money laundering activities or unpaid sales taxes, etc.

    There is a reason why the makers of EVE Online and WoW actively fight RMT.

    CoE dev team is either ignorant (likely since they lack experience in so many areas) or are just lazy.

    Edit - one example of this:
    http://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news/valve-sued-for-promoting-illegal-gambling-in-counter-strike-global-offensive-853288
    Post edited by genaknosc on
  • TimEisenTimEisen Columnist Member RarePosts: 2,972

    Dakeru said:

    Well I guess "learning through experimentation" says it all.
    Who needs details that describe how mechanics really work when you can just put a vague meaningless line to lure in more gullible people?


    You just described the the MMORPG genre, life, the universe and everything else with one single line. Well done.
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
    "Basically if a Ninja Turtle used it, or close to it, I like it."
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,156

    TimEisen said:



    Dakeru said:


    Well I guess "learning through experimentation" says it all.
    Who needs details that describe how mechanics really work when you can just put a vague meaningless line to lure in more gullible people?




    You just described the the MMORPG genre, life, the universe and everything else with one single line. Well done.


    I described the universe by pointing out that Caspian is purposely misleading people by being extra vague?
    The answer is 42.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106

    Iselin said:






    It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.

    So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.

    Disapointing.




    Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.

    I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.

    But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.


    What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here. 




    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • WellspringWellspring Charlotte, NCMember RarePosts: 455
    @Distopia, No one is denying that RMT doesn't go on behind shadows and on the "black market" in every MMO. 

    There's a big difference though in perception and participation, between saying it's against the rules (and not doing much to stop it from happening), and what CoE did, which was saying that RMT is going to be allowed...

    Last thing I want is to play a game where I constantly feel like I need to participate in RMT to be competitive. 

    --------------------------------------------
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    edited May 4





    Last thing I want is to play a game where I constantly feel like I need to participate in RMT to be competitive. 





    That's my point in a nutshell though, you always were playing in that environment. That just shows how little it truly effects the overall experience. Because you don't really notice it. You can still play by the rules and fare well in the competitive side of the game (PVP). Which is where it really matters. 

    Accepting that makes it easy to get past the perception you talk about. I accepted that long ago when I was still deeply into SWG. Hence this notion doesn't scare me at all, as I know it will be no different than it was back then. 
    Post edited by Distopia on

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,164
    It's not that I don't agree with their reason for not bothering with it. However, the blatant disregard and basic promotion of such an economic travesty shows a complete lack of care for their game. At the very least, you could just say, no, it's not allowed, but not do anything to stop it. Public statements like this are worse than shooting yourself in the foot.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,912

    Distopia said:



    Iselin said:









    It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.

    So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.

    Disapointing.






    Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.

    I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.

    But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.




    What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here. 






    Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies. 

    I don't remember that from those old days.

    Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • TimEisenTimEisen Columnist Member RarePosts: 2,972

    Dakeru said:



    TimEisen said:





    Dakeru said:



    Well I guess "learning through experimentation" says it all.
    Who needs details that describe how mechanics really work when you can just put a vague meaningless line to lure in more gullible people?






    You just described the the MMORPG genre, life, the universe and everything else with one single line. Well done.




    I described the universe by pointing out that Caspian is purposely misleading people by being extra vague?
    The answer is 42.


    I'd say you described much more. I wouldn't say Caspian was misleading people by being extra vague, I'd say he has been consistent and on par with all the KS's. They all try to get as much from us as they can with as little set in stone as they have to. It makes sense because their MMOs will change, and people will complain about it. You have to walk a tricky line. Give enough to get people in but not so much that you are stuck with something you can't pull off. Gotta leave yourself outs and back up plans and work-a-rounds. They all do it, its part of the KS process. 

    Every KS is like a first date, you see and hear everything you ever wanted to. What people fail to realize is, also like a first date, a lot of it is BS, a lot of is will change and you are seeing the best of a person on that date. With every game I back I do so with the hope they pull off a fraction of what they want to. 

    Gullible people are the majority. They dictate this world.  
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,186

    Rhoklaw said:

    It's not that I don't agree with their reason for not bothering with it. However, the blatant disregard and basic promotion of such an economic travesty shows a complete lack of care for their game. At the very least, you could just say, no, it's not allowed, but not do anything to stop it. Public statements like this are worse than shooting yourself in the foot.


    Agree,  but from the beginning it was clear that this game was being designed for the affluent few to spend prodigiously.  The rest of the plebs are around to be their playthings and background actors.  Now there is really no conceivable way that a whale who spent 10-20k on his buy to king pledge can lose it as long as he's willing to keep on spending his money on resources and items and probably even people.  Hey, I can see it now:

    Come join my army for this battle and I'll pay you $25 a head...


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    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106

    Iselin said:



    Distopia said:





    Iselin said:












    It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.

    So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.

    Disapointing.








    Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.

    I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.

    But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.






    What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here. 








    Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies. 

    I don't remember that from those old days.

    Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.


    I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • KrynKryn Wahiawa, HIMember UncommonPosts: 169
    They will have to take chat completely out of the game before I would attempt to play now.  As useless as it will be they might as well anyway.  Although, honestly, before this thread I had only read the name of the game a few times and never read anything about it until now.  Zero interest before and -5 interest now.
  • KrynKryn Wahiawa, HIMember UncommonPosts: 169
    edited May 4


    Torval said:


    It's not a few people that do this. No one who doesn't have their head up their butts knows it. We've had threads here before talking about people cheating and most here have done it. A multimillion dollar industry doesn't just pop up because a few people here or there aren't doing it.

    If a game has free trading RMT is going to happen because most mmo gamers are cheaters. There are very few games without a noticable RMT problem. LotRO is one of the few I can think of and that's mostly because very little of value can be traded.

    Most of the cheaters don't care or try and justify it like the guy who always posts about anti-bot software and getting banned from albion for buying gold.

    How many people in this thread have purchased gold/rmt or know a guildie or friend who did and didn't report them? Be honest with yourselves and don't try and make any excuses. Start taking responsibility and accountability for our own problem. If players didn't buy gold devs wouldn't have to fight it.




    I have never actively known anyone that bought anything in a game.  Now,
    that doesn't mean I didn't know people who did but I didn't know about
    it.



    Post edited by Kryn on
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,912

    Distopia said:



    Iselin said:





    Distopia said:







    Iselin said:















    It seems many folks playing games today just can't stomach the idea that they can't pay their way to the "endgame" and beyond.

    So now, in the very hobby we use to escape reality and unwind, the stratification along real life socioeconomic status is creeping into the hobby.

    Disapointing.










    Exactly. What I find most troubling is the outright denial that the games are lessened by it.

    I mean... I can understand players resigning themselves to the inevitability of it in modern day games and finding ways to cope with it so that they can still get some enjoyment from the games.

    But it's the arguments that there is nothing wrong with it and that the games have just as much integrity as they used to have without it that I have a hard time stomaching.








    What I find more troublesome is folks acting like this wasn't going on back then, when it was a lucrative underground business, many were buying their way to endgame as well as wins in every single MMO. We're talking the height of sites like IGE here. Don't ban me bro... I'm just mentioning it because of the subject matter here. 










    Other than you attributing that to other people I haven't heard anyone say that it hasn't always existed. But there's quite a difference between an underground market that was actively condemned by the companies and considered a cheat by the vast majority of the player base, to throwing your hands up in the air, saying "everyone does it, so whatever" and openly talking about it in forums as something that doesn't bother you. Or for companies to create their own RMT schemes with intermediary currencies. 

    I don't remember that from those old days.

    Maybe it's just part of the conversion of MMOs into casual solo games (except with the background noise of strangers) why people so openly say these days that it's not something that concerns them. It doesn't concern me either what you do in your single player games.




    I just see it as someone dropping the facade, which IMO it's about time. As I said above I have felt this way since my SWG days long before MMOs turned into "my single player games", where ebayed Jedi or RMT'd dot weapons was as normal as just about anything else you came across. 


    Dropping the facade and embracing it are two different things though, aren't they?

    Maybe you and I hung out in different crowds. All the time I spent in Asheron's Call and DAoC I never heard anyone admit to having bought a character or item or gold on Ebay or anywhere else although I'm very aware that those listings were there.

    First time I ever heard someone openly admit buying gold was in WOW and he was kicked out of our guild lol.... although I admit, many of us felt sorry for him and thought that was too harsh: being laughed at was enough punishment.

    Of course once the companies themselves started doing the selling the gamer's attitude toward RMT was bound to change don't you think?

    I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that things are the same today as they were 15 years ago.
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Panama City, FLMember RarePosts: 1,422
    With the way they plan to have their in-game economics set up this will be a disaster.  Wallet warrior's wet dream.  More power to em I guess, they're keeping people employed after all!
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 609
    edited May 4
    By allowing RMT, developers acknowledge that the virtual goods in their game hold real monetary value, which can indeed make them vulnerable to certain types of lawsuits in some regions of the world. Cancellation of game development can be litigated as a failure to deliver virtual goods. A scam involving in-game items can be litigated as a fraud, etc. The law already knows precedents in such categories. In some countries precedents have established the real monetary value of virtual items.

    One year ago, after development of game X had been cancelled and company Y withheld refunds to early backers, I prepared a litigation in cooperation with a law firm against the company. Company Y decided not to get involved in the legal dispute and settled with a complete refund. While the game had been still in development and they had transactions involving real money and in-game goods, the creative director of game X, who was also CEO of company Y, had promised to allow RMT. This would have been used against them in the litigation, among other things (though they most likely settled not because of this point but because of another contingency built into the litigation, capitalising on their unawareness of one of the newest VAT tax regulations, that would have jeopardised their future projects with a major distributor in the European Union).

    Major companies are aware of these dangers and have experts who consult them on information disclosure but indie companies with their open development approach and less knowledge or experience with legal disputes reveal information without sufficient consideration sometimes and without fear of subpoena duces tecum.
    Post edited by Yanocchi on
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