Making vanilla profitable to Blizzard.

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Comments

  • RavenRaven LondonMember UncommonPosts: 1,994
    edited June 1
    Loke666 said:

    We wont see a vanilla Wow except by illegal private servers.
    The truth is they don't want a divided population. They want the cattle to stay penned in one version of the game (no EQ and EQII divide). With the game essentially 5 or so million players active, I'd be hard pressed to find if even 2.5 million humans playing the game (many are multi-boxing).

    If Blizzard added vanilla, current WoW would be a ghost town, as so many multi-box for the illusion OF a MMO. As soon as Blizzard has an Overwatch promo, WoW empties. So the game really doesn't have many humans playing to split between old and new WoW.

    Then what tech or new content will keep their designers happy creating?

    So they're stuck in new WoW and anything else old will have to be third party (which Blizzard is very greedy about not doing).
    Is multi boxing really that prevalent in WoW?!? I am not sure it is.

    I dont think there is actually a big enough population outside of a niche to go back to actual Vanilla WoW. The best and only great thing about vanilla WoW for me was the difficulty of the combat, when you could actually die questing, where right now its just a dumbdown version of aoe everything.

    For them to make a vanilla server that would actually attract some population, they would need to take it back to vanilla but add many of the changes they have done over the last 15 years, some class balance ( there are many many useless skills, classes are super bloated and lack focus ), achievements and transmog gear are big big things for me I wouldnt want to lose that, smaller raid sizes ( 40 man sounds awesome for maybe a handful of guilds, most people dont want to sit through 40man raids again ).

    There is probably a lot more things I missed, but all of this requires a lot of work, just rolling it back isnt gonna work, private servers like Elysium work because they are free and they run on nostalgia and the few hardcore players, for instance there is a big problem of no PVE guilds on the horde side. Once you reach the cap and have sated that nostalgia from the old leveling, it becomes yet another grind, unstable groups, really patchy drop system, waiting 1h to make a group to then get disbanded half way through, so many problems.

    But maybe at one point they might do the actual work to make this happen and have a few progression servers from vanilla->current but it isnt trivial.

    Personally I would rather they started work on another warcraft game whatever that might be ( I dont see them doing another MMORPG for sure ).


    Post edited by Raven on

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  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAMember UncommonPosts: 1,977
    edited June 2
    Raven said:
    Is multi boxing really that prevalent in WoW?!? I am not sure it is.
    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/guilds/5583725

    That's now...
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/guild/shandris/LëVëL_Lørds/roster?page=1

    They even have their own guilds these days!

    How I even learned of that guild? Watching one player come into a world quest zone and took every kill and flew out on those 50g griffon mounts at once, too.

    Then coming back to Dalaran to see him controlling his bots in sequence (he was moving them in lines and other shapes).

    You'll find BOTS in your raids even. Had a 'lock running in the wall oblivious that the raid was watching the hilarity, too.

    If your public raid is failing check for bots and multi-boxers.

    Had the magnet bots auto-follow me in some Nighthold raids (and no, not LFR, too).

    Don't believe me? There's plenty of exposes on the botting in WoW too...


    Post edited by Kevyne-Shandris on
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member UncommonPosts: 401
    edited July 22
    Loke666 said:

    We wont see a vanilla Wow except by illegal private servers.
    The truth is they don't want a divided population. They want the cattle to stay penned in one version of the game (no EQ and EQII divide). With the game essentially 5 or so million players active, I'd be hard pressed to find if even 2.5 million humans playing the game (many are multi-boxing).

    If Blizzard added vanilla, current WoW would be a ghost town, as so many multi-box for the illusion OF a MMO. As soon as Blizzard has an Overwatch promo, WoW empties. So the game really doesn't have many humans playing to split between old and new WoW.

    Then what tech or new content will keep their designers happy creating?

    So they're stuck in new WoW and anything else old will have to be third party (which Blizzard is very greedy about not doing).
    lol, there will be no divide. The kind of players that want Vanilla are not playing the current dumbed down easy garbage anyways. What it comes down to is someone at Blizzard is being stubborn for making the wrong choice a long time ago not allowing the creation of an Official vanilla server. They can't come to terms with their wrong mistake and allowing a successful vanilla server now would put the spot light on their bad decision... Of course this is my opinion though... We'll see if they eventually open their eyes... 
    Post edited by Gyva02 on
  • AriesTigerAriesTiger Wisconsin, USAMember UncommonPosts: 211
    Back in the day when F2P MMOs were really starting to catch on people were saying things like "you can't bleed a rock" and such as the reasoning they couldn't afford a sub. They made such a fuss back then that in today's gaming they are the first thing considered by game companies. How will they game the system. How to deal with the content locusts...how much free stuff should we give them cause they'll ask for more eventually. Etc., etc. Vanilla WoW with the normal sub would be profitable no doubt. However, most low income gamers would scoff at it saying they already played the game whatever whatever whatever.

    At the end of they day the low income gamer won't support you hardly at all. They are meatsacks for the whales to either devour, punching bag, or be eye candy.
  • PowermikePowermike Member CommonPosts: 6
    It seems true that vanilla can't come back without the current game changing.

    In my opinion wow vanilla is purely a feeling. Nostalgia, experience, excitement, friendship, joy, belonging, progression, sandbox, fellowship, helpfulness and more come to mind when I think back about vanilla.

    People will play for nostalgia but the question is... Will they play for other of those feelings? In my humble opinion.. a lot would need to be changed I think in order to get that good old atmosphere. Because the atmosphere is what made vanilla.

    But what made the atmosphere? In my opinion it needs to be close enough to reality so sense can be made out of the story. A dangerous and realistic world. Also roleplaying should be a little more present. If I'd walk into iron forge and enter the pub and see players roleplaying in dwarven language, that would give me reason to come back more because I can experience new things more. I'd also like to see roleplayers connect to non-stop roleplayers, for example through quests. The storyline should also be more open. Like a living storyline. This would give players a reason to keep coming back. Rare and unique rewards should be given to give more skilled and hardcore players and skilled leaders a reason to join in for a bit. 

    And i believe only in casual gameplay and a learning environment with less farming, less killing and more depth.


  • GaladournGaladourn AthensMember UncommonPosts: 1,298
    Powermike said:
    It seems true that vanilla can't come back without the current game changing.

    In my opinion wow vanilla is purely a feeling. Nostalgia, experience, excitement, friendship, joy, belonging, progression, sandbox, fellowship, helpfulness and more come to mind when I think back about vanilla.

    People will play for nostalgia but the question is... Will they play for other of those feelings? In my humble opinion.. a lot would need to be changed I think in order to get that good old atmosphere. Because the atmosphere is what made vanilla.

    But what made the atmosphere? In my opinion it needs to be close enough to reality so sense can be made out of the story. A dangerous and realistic world. Also roleplaying should be a little more present. If I'd walk into iron forge and enter the pub and see players roleplaying in dwarven language, that would give me reason to come back more because I can experience new things more. I'd also like to see roleplayers connect to non-stop roleplayers, for example through quests. The storyline should also be more open. Like a living storyline. This would give players a reason to keep coming back. Rare and unique rewards should be given to give more skilled and hardcore players and skilled leaders a reason to join in for a bit. 

    And i believe only in casual gameplay and a learning environment with less farming, less killing and more depth.


    This has been answered before; vanilla is NOT about nostalgia, it's a better all-around game compared to the current version of WoW.

    More challenging, deeper, more rewarding, more community-driven, and the list goes on...
    ForgrimmSedrynTyrosdeniterGdemamiHorusra

  • agedcheddaragedcheddar Member CommonPosts: 2
    Blizzard would introduce classic wow tokens and cash shop mounts  :(
    Ridelynn
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAMember EpicPosts: 2,327
    I think I'm starting to understand Blizzards decision.  This thread has maybe 30 different people posting in it and not one person can agree on what changes/No changes they would make to the "new" vanilla.  I imagine Blizzard realizes no matter what they released.  People would never be content.  A few months after launch you would see tons of posts asking for changes and new content because they pay a sub and they demand it.  

    Just for the record.  I would probably pop my head into an official  vanilla server.  I just get why they aren't bothering with it right now.
    Powermike
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,223
    I think I'm starting to understand Blizzards decision.  This thread has maybe 30 different people posting in it and not one person can agree on what changes/No changes they would make to the "new" vanilla.  I imagine Blizzard realizes no matter what they released.  People would never be content.  A few months after launch you would see tons of posts asking for changes and new content because they pay a sub and they demand it.  

    Just for the record.  I would probably pop my head into an official  vanilla server.  I just get why they aren't bothering with it right now.

    I disagree, 

    If Blizzard stuck to Vanilla basic rules by keeping the game hard, 50% group focused and no dungeon finder and not being so easy, the game would be A LOT MORE POPULATED.  It would still be liked by all if expansions followed the vanilla way. 

    I understand what you saying with 30 different opinions here that Blizzard can't please everyone, therefore they should do what ever they feel.  I do agree do what they feel, but the " do what they feel " WENT IN THE WRONG DIRECTION ! 

    I know I'm sounding like the 31st opinion, but it's the right one, sorry for being so bold.  But they should never had changed direction in the first place.
    deniterGdemami
  • PowermikePowermike Member CommonPosts: 6
    I think I'm starting to understand Blizzards decision.  This thread has maybe 30 different people posting in it and not one person can agree on what changes/No changes they would make to the "new" vanilla.  I imagine Blizzard realizes no matter what they released.  People would never be content.  A few months after launch you would see tons of posts asking for changes and new content because they pay a sub and they demand it.  

    Just for the record.  I would probably pop my head into an official  vanilla server.  I just get why they aren't bothering with it right now.
    I'll try to explain this problem of the vanilla community (and blizzard!) to understand the quality of gaming, and the quality of life!

    I believe that one of the core problems is something in the mmorpg world that is wrongly being understood. I believe that is "content". Since day 1 WoW is said to have been offering the most content. But I believe there is too much emphasis placed on "what is" rather than on "what could be". I believe that blizzard simply didn't understand it's players and still doesn't, because blizzard believes that the best rewards are to be obtained in the end.

    But what a mistake they've made!

    The sheer amount of players who like the experience and the materialistic/immaterialistic rewards in between! And the power and joy of casual play!

    So here's the thing. What I remembered from WoW vanilla is the feeling and experience of worlds (virtual worlds, ahem). It's the same in life. Some people like the goal, some like the journey. I believe in life just like in WoW it's (become) all about the goal, and with that the experience has been fully taken away. People don't like that, they will only accept that up to a certain extent. I believe blizzard sets the tone for others to follow and so they're at the core of the declining mmorpg market. Anyways, back to my story.

    But not in vanilla!

    In vanilla people were largely new to virtual worlds. This had to be explored!! The amount of people being happy with me exploring in vanilla... Hundreds I believe. 

    So many players stopped, they said they couldn't get quests done etc. But this is completely NOT the reason people stopped. People acquired a thirst for exploration and didn't understand it because in real life... Life is boring. Going to your job every day doing the same thing, the opposite of exploring and experiencing! People keep misunderstanding so they stop or they play and play and play to try and understand what they're missing in life.

    So people, do you understand what I'm trying to say here? 

    I remembered most the first cave I explored. That was scary. Even as a 22 year old. Fighting with spells... So cool as a mage! Better slow down that wolf first... Meeting a player was an experience in itself. But helping each other felt so natural in this new demanding environment (the virtual stimulated environment).

    Anyways, thanks for reading. I know what I'm missing and it's not the violence and killing (at best it's airing my negative feelings, which has never been my aim in games or in life), but puzzling and experiencing my way through a virtual environment with others.

    Have a nice day.
    Ridelynnlaserit
  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAMember EpicPosts: 6,070
    Vanill WoW would great

    ... for about 6 months.

    All the content locusts would still be max level in a wewek or two and complaining no one is around to help carry them in MC/AQ/Naxx.

    By the time the median player has finally gotten through ganklandz of SVT and Hillsbrad, they will be all excited for their first 40-man, until they realize it means ~a lot~ of scheduling, coordination, and hearing the obligatory "Dude Imsohighrightnow" over and over on Vent.

    No one runs dungeons, because you have to actually run out to the dungeon and everyone would be too lazy.

    By the time the casuals finally get leveled up, there will be no one left to raid with (except themselves, which won't go over well) so they will just do fishIng tournaments and use their DKP for crafting items.
  • wandericawanderica clayton, NCMember UncommonPosts: 282
    I think for Blizzard it's simply a question of, "Does this make sense?"  There's no question of whether or not a vanilla server would be profitable.  It certainly would.  However, the question of whether or not current WoW would lose subs isn't so easily answered.  Take a look at EQ and EQ2.  The TLP servers launch to great fanfare and excitement as players vote on wanted features and server rule sets.  They put up with (or even exploit) inherent imbalances due to base game changes throughout expansions in a mad race to gain server firsts.  New players are encouraged not to try the live servers, but to roll on the newest TLP to "see the game in its purest form." 

    Could Blizzard alter or simulate vanilla WoW?  Of course they can.  To think otherwise is ridiculous, but there's no question that it would cannibalize at least some of current WoW's population when it launches.  This can lead to a downward spiral in perception that current WoW is dead or dying, wow is on life support, devs are out of ideas, etc, etc.  I believe all of this would be acceptable risk if Blizzard could guarantee ROI from vanilla server launches, but they can't.  Launching vanilla servers may indirectly be the cause of the live game degrading to the point of "dying" from a population and income perspective.

    We're left with the question, how do you launch vanilla servers without taking anything at all from the live game?  I have no answer for that, and I don't think Blizzard does either.  So, I think that Blizzard is simply keeping the idea of Vanilla servers in reserve for a rainy day.  When population drops below acceptable levels, we'll see vanilla servers roll out followed by a massive influx of players both new and old.  Until then, though, I seriously doubt Blizzard will alter their money printing machine beyond looking to the future of current WoW.


    P.S.  I would love vanilla WoW.  I miss it more than I ever thought I would.  Today's just doesn't compare from a community perspective.


  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,131
    edited August 18
    The OP is missing the most basic of questions - why?

    Blizzard's is already profitable, and while yes - making money remains the bottom line, WoW is making money and is not struggling as a product.

    So Blizzard being the position they are right now, they can afford to do something that many companies can't  - which is ask their own developers "hey what do you want to work on?"

    Because that's the luxury that most companies don't have that are struggling to stay profitable.


    Ask any software developer about their "excitement level" of rolling the code back by 13 years... yeah.

    Game developers are the same - they want to move forward in terms of code, not backwards, they want to do new and different stuff not dwell in the past.

    There's ZERO interest for devs at Blizzard to do this, and since they're not forced to as financially they're doing great, why should they?

    To please the gamers? Heh - are players still this disconnected from reality to believe that a small minority of players drives what game companies do?


    There are also other business factors that are strong drivers of why Blizzard won't do this:

    1. Player fragmentation - now you have the current WoW and the vanilla - it fragments the playerbase, which is a risk

    2. Multiple code branches, segmentation of the development team and additional workload

    3. Long term viability - after the initial excitement, these vanilla projects run out of steam fast and dump a ton of playerbase

    4. Don't rock the boat - the risk might not be worth it as again the current WoW model is very profitable, why fuck with it? 
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,131
    edited August 18
    I think I'm starting to understand Blizzards decision.  This thread has maybe 30 different people posting in it and not one person can agree on what changes/No changes they would make to the "new" vanilla.  I imagine Blizzard realizes no matter what they released.  People would never be content.  A few months after launch you would see tons of posts asking for changes and new content because they pay a sub and they demand it.  

    Just for the record.  I would probably pop my head into an official  vanilla server.  I just get why they aren't bothering with it right now.

    I disagree, 

    If Blizzard stuck to Vanilla basic rules by keeping the game hard, 50% group focused and no dungeon finder and not being so easy, the game would be A LOT MORE POPULATED.  It would still be liked by all if expansions followed the vanilla way. 

    I understand what you saying with 30 different opinions here that Blizzard can't please everyone, therefore they should do what ever they feel.  I do agree do what they feel, but the " do what they feel " WENT IN THE WRONG DIRECTION ! 

    I know I'm sounding like the 31st opinion, but it's the right one, sorry for being so bold.  But they should never had changed direction in the first place.



    Except that you are 100% wrong.

    WoW would not be as profitabe today as they are if they stayed the course.

    Making the game easier, way more casual, and dumbing down all the systems was done why?

    Because Blizzard is clueless and wants to piss off their playerbase OR maybe... just maybe, Blizzard has invested millions of dollars into Business analytics to look at player trends and change the game according to active playerbase?

    Yeah - if they stayed the course, with vanilla rules, WoW would in reality most likely be shut down today.


    Why does it never occur to you that your personal view vs the analytics and metrics Blizzard has on their own players over the last 13 years - your personal opinion is the RIGHT ONE?

    A billion dollar company makes decisions on 100% data driven, hard proof evidence, not gut feelings.

    A 13 year old game decline in playerbase is inevitable, the fact that with new expansions Blizzard is able to spike the active playerbase in terms of millions of players is the clear proof that their "data/metrics driven" decision making approach works.

    If WoW vanilla ever comes, I can assure you it's because the internal data Blizzard has from their BI team clearly shows that's what they need to do, not because of external forces or forum discussions.
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • Leon1eLeon1e ViennaMember UncommonPosts: 781
    Kickstarter or GoFundMe to incentivize Blizzard? 

    Bruh, money is the least of Blizzard's worries. They are freaking stacked with money.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,266
    I think Blizzard / Activision have made their intentions quite clear in regards to vanilla servers. I would go as far as to say someone could give them $1,000,000 and they'd still so eff off. When Blizzard was "working" with Nost and Nost backed off, why do you think that was? Well, it was rumored that Blizzard was twiddling their thumbs or better yet, had it stuck up their derriere. If Blizzard was making any kind of beneficial bargain to work with Nost, trust me, it would of happened. Of course Nost releasing the open source code was pretty much the nail in the coffin.

    I've said it many times before, Blizzard / Activision are extremely greedy. Not greedy as in making a nice profit. Greedy as in, Uncle Scrooge, you're lucky if I give you a lump of coal for Christmas greedy. Probably one of the most blatant in your face abusive companies to their fans as you're going to see in the market. They don't care about you or anyone interested in vanilla servers, trust me. Right now, it's more of a pride thing than anything else.

  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 21,002
    DMKano said:

    Except that you are 100% wrong.

    WoW would not be as profitabe today as they are if they stayed the course.

    Making the game easier, way more casual, and dumbing down all the systems was done why?

    Because Blizzard is clueless and wants to piss off their playerbase OR maybe... just maybe, Blizzard has invested millions of dollars into Business analytics to look at player trends and change the game according to active playerbase?

    Yeah - if they stayed the course, with vanilla rules, WoW would in reality most likely be shut down today.


    Why does it never occur to you that your personal view vs the analytics and metrics Blizzard has on their own players over the last 13 years - your personal opinion is the RIGHT ONE?

    A billion dollar company makes decisions on 100% data driven, hard proof evidence, not gut feelings.

    A 13 year old game decline in playerbase is inevitable, the fact that with new expansions Blizzard is able to spike the active playerbase in terms of millions of players is the clear proof that their "data/metrics driven" decision making approach works.

    If WoW vanilla ever comes, I can assure you it's because the internal data Blizzard has from their BI team clearly shows that's what they need to do, not because of external forces or forum discussions.
    We can't possibly know either way. 

    Fact: Wow started pretty strong
    Fact: Wow topped around the launch of Cata

    Fact: Kaplan moved to Titan about that time.
    Speculation: making the game easier gave it more players.

    If this curve would have changed if they moved in a different direction is a rather likely scenario. How is just a guess.

    Clearly was vanilla not a small footnote and the game took of when they simplified things, it was doing great before that as well. But how it would have done if it stayed it's course is impossible to say, there is nothing 100% sure about that and you know it.

    Yes, it is likely that making the game easier gave it more players but it is not certain. And you also have to count the long term effects, how would the difficulty impact the long term players?

    Both of you are just guessing and while Kanos scenario is likelier that doesn't make it a fact.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,266
    Loke666 said:
    DMKano said:

    Except that you are 100% wrong.

    WoW would not be as profitabe today as they are if they stayed the course.

    Making the game easier, way more casual, and dumbing down all the systems was done why?

    Because Blizzard is clueless and wants to piss off their playerbase OR maybe... just maybe, Blizzard has invested millions of dollars into Business analytics to look at player trends and change the game according to active playerbase?

    Yeah - if they stayed the course, with vanilla rules, WoW would in reality most likely be shut down today.


    Why does it never occur to you that your personal view vs the analytics and metrics Blizzard has on their own players over the last 13 years - your personal opinion is the RIGHT ONE?

    A billion dollar company makes decisions on 100% data driven, hard proof evidence, not gut feelings.

    A 13 year old game decline in playerbase is inevitable, the fact that with new expansions Blizzard is able to spike the active playerbase in terms of millions of players is the clear proof that their "data/metrics driven" decision making approach works.

    If WoW vanilla ever comes, I can assure you it's because the internal data Blizzard has from their BI team clearly shows that's what they need to do, not because of external forces or forum discussions.
    We can't possibly know either way. 

    Fact: Wow started pretty strong
    Fact: Wow topped around the launch of Cata

    Fact: Kaplan moved to Titan about that time.
    Speculation: making the game easier gave it more players.

    If this curve would have changed if they moved in a different direction is a rather likely scenario. How is just a guess.

    Clearly was vanilla not a small footnote and the game took of when they simplified things, it was doing great before that as well. But how it would have done if it stayed it's course is impossible to say, there is nothing 100% sure about that and you know it.

    Yes, it is likely that making the game easier gave it more players but it is not certain. And you also have to count the long term effects, how would the difficulty impact the long term players?

    Both of you are just guessing and while Kanos scenario is likelier that doesn't make it a fact.
    Technically, WoW topped off during WotLK and as you can see, that didn't last very long into Cataclysm and never returned. I left during WotLK and for obvious reasons many others did as well. Part of the reason I left was gear score and LFD crap they added in patch 3.3 right before Cataclysm launched. Yes, making a game easier is great for those hard working families who have no time. However, it also initiated the instant gratification, participation trophy, elitist crowd. You know, those folks who don't talk, speed run and kick people for some of the dumbest reasons known to man. WoW was made easier alright, but that isn't necessarily a good thing as the people who prefer easy are generally not the brightest tools in the shed and are more apt to be the most annoying instead.
    deniter

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,131
    edited August 18
    Loke666 said:
    DMKano said:

    Except that you are 100% wrong.

    WoW would not be as profitabe today as they are if they stayed the course.

    Making the game easier, way more casual, and dumbing down all the systems was done why?

    Because Blizzard is clueless and wants to piss off their playerbase OR maybe... just maybe, Blizzard has invested millions of dollars into Business analytics to look at player trends and change the game according to active playerbase?

    Yeah - if they stayed the course, with vanilla rules, WoW would in reality most likely be shut down today.


    Why does it never occur to you that your personal view vs the analytics and metrics Blizzard has on their own players over the last 13 years - your personal opinion is the RIGHT ONE?

    A billion dollar company makes decisions on 100% data driven, hard proof evidence, not gut feelings.

    A 13 year old game decline in playerbase is inevitable, the fact that with new expansions Blizzard is able to spike the active playerbase in terms of millions of players is the clear proof that their "data/metrics driven" decision making approach works.

    If WoW vanilla ever comes, I can assure you it's because the internal data Blizzard has from their BI team clearly shows that's what they need to do, not because of external forces or forum discussions.
    We can't possibly know either way. 

    Fact: Wow started pretty strong
    Fact: Wow topped around the launch of Cata

    Fact: Kaplan moved to Titan about that time.
    Speculation: making the game easier gave it more players.

    If this curve would have changed if they moved in a different direction is a rather likely scenario. How is just a guess.

    Clearly was vanilla not a small footnote and the game took of when they simplified things, it was doing great before that as well. But how it would have done if it stayed it's course is impossible to say, there is nothing 100% sure about that and you know it.

    Yes, it is likely that making the game easier gave it more players but it is not certain. And you also have to count the long term effects, how would the difficulty impact the long term players?

    Both of you are just guessing and while Kanos scenario is likelier that doesn't make it a fact.


    My scenario happened - as that's what Blizzard did, they've invested millions into internal business analytics and metrics and that's what they use as the main driving force to which direction to take each game.

    As a billion dollar company, how does Blizzard keep pulse on the constantly changing nature of the playerbase, wants and needs of majority? Reading forum posts? Jump to conclusions mat? 

    Nope - it's 100% BI

    This is not speculation, obviously BI is not infallible and there are things that in hindsight Blizzard would have liked to have done differently, but it's far better than making decisions without any actual data analytics.

    The other scenario is speculation of WoW not changing direction and following the vanilla rules for 13 years would have led to the same or better outcome than what happened?

    I am sorry - but we do know this, EEDAR has simulated this over and over again and the outcome is always the same, major attrition, especially over a long time period as 10+ years.

    Yes it is still speculation, as simulation = is not reality, but what real world MMO examples do we have of games not changing anything since launch for many years that grew the playerbase?

    There are none. Yes over time MMOs lose players, this happens even if you change the game to best match majority, but without change you'd be losing players at an exponentially higher rate.

    There's a reason for that - making no changes to gameplay leads to players getting bored quickly and moving on. MMOs need to have new gameplay elements over time to keep the gameplay fresh and exciting.

    Having a static unchanging MMO without new gameplay elements = recipe for disaster.

    If WoW never changed Vanilla rules, the game would have most likely been shut down years ago.

    You either change your game over time to adapt to the majority playerbase or you fail really quick, that's what happens with MMOs
    Post edited by DMKano on
    ConstantineMerus
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,131
    edited August 18
    Rhoklaw said:
     Yes, making a game easier is great for those hard working families who have no time. However, it also initiated the instant gratification, participation trophy, elitist crowd. You know, those folks who don't talk, speed run and kick people for some of the dumbest reasons known to man. 
    This is how your average player plays MMOs now. What you describe is the majority.

    Considerate, polite, social well mannered player is the minority today - that's what changed over the last 13+ years.

    When you are in MMO business, you have to cater to your average player today, not your average player from 13 years ago.

    At the dawn of MMOs - the player population was nerds and geeks who had PCs and had internet access, while the majority of the world didn't even know what PC or internet was.

    Today everyone is online, so your average player today is not a lovable geek anymore, it's everyone including those lovely folks you see beating eachother with sticks, shields and torches and shouting slogans from the failed regimes from the 1940s.

    Yeah.
    Post edited by DMKano on
    Rhoklaw
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 21,002
    DMKano said:

    My scenario happened - as that's what Blizzard did, they've invested millions into internal business analytics and metrics and that's what they use as the main driving force to which direction to take each game.

    As a billion dollar company, how does Blizzard keep pulse on the constantly changing nature of the playerbase, wants and needs of majority? Reading forum posts? Jump to conclusions mat? 

    Nope - it's 100% BI

    This is not speculation, obviously BI is not infallible and there are things that in hindsight Blizzard would have liked to have done differently, but it's far better than making decisions without any actual data analytics.

    The other scenario is speculation of WoW not changing direction and following the vanilla rules for 13 years would have led to the same or better outcome than what happened?

    I am sorry - but we do know this, EEDAR has simulated this over and over again and the outcome is always the same, major attrition, especially over a long time period as 10+ years.

    Yes it is still speculation, as simulation = is not reality, but what real world MMO examples do we have of games not changing anything since launch for many years that grew the playerbase?

    There are none. Yes over time MMOs lose players, this happens even if you change the game to best match majority, but without change you'd be losing players at an exponentially higher rate.

    There's a reason for that - making no changes to gameplay - it doesn't work for MMOs over a long period of time.

    You either change your game over time to adapt to the majority playerbase or you fail really quick, that's what happens with MMOs
    Nothing besides taxes and death are 100% sure. 

    I did say you were more likely to be right but it is certainly possible and even likely that if Wow gone in a third direction it might have done even better.

    There are certain ups and downs in the subscription table that talks about good ideas and mistakes and something certainly happened just after Catas launch. Any game will eventually loose players but the game went from constant rise to a huge fall that only been broken whenever a new expansion hits.

    They did a bad decision there, or possibly is it because Kaplan left but even though he is brilliant I doubt that. He did make Cata so if he leaving would be the thing the subs probably would have waited dipping until late in the Cata period, not early.

    As I see it, making the game accesory to more players probably initially gained them far more players but they took it too far at that point.

    The dip is far too steep and sudden to just be explained by people noticing that the game is getting old, it had a huge dip from one quarter to another. It is of course possible that the expansion just sucked and that made people realize the game was old but I think they dumbed down things one time too many.

    You want as many people as possible to be able to play a game but there is a point when you go too far and people stop enjoying it because the challenge is gone, even if the challenge was rather easy before it was still a challenge.

    It is indeed unlikely that Wow would have maxed if it kept vanillas mechanics and difficulty but it isn't totally impossible. Some hit games (like Dark souls) have sold a lot of copies while being hard. Heck, the first Diablo was really bloody hard and it still sold several million copies. It would not have the same players as now then (well, the raiders would probably be there but certainly not the casuals) but vanilla already had 7 million players and a few good expansion could have doubled that even with harder difficulty.

    It is not likely but not likely is not the same as impossible. It was not likely that a guy a played a little boardgames with on gaming Cons would create a hugely popular game (Minecraft) and become super rich eiither but that happened.

    What if scenarios is really popular right now but nothing like that is possible to prove. What if Hitler skipped invading Poland? What if the Norse populated Canada? What if US never entered WW2? We can guess but it is just guesses.
    deniter
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,131
    edited August 18
    Loke666 said:


    It is indeed unlikely that Wow would have maxed if it kept vanillas mechanics and difficulty but it isn't totally impossible. Some hit games (like Dark souls) have sold a lot of copies while being hard. Heck, the first Diablo was really bloody hard and it still sold several million copies. It would not have the same players as now then (well, the raiders would probably be there but certainly not the casuals) but vanilla already had 7 million players and a few good expansion could have doubled that even with harder difficulty.




    It is far more than unlikely - it is almost certain, considering the playerbase and time periods involved and types of game.

    Dark Souls is a single player game - it's total worldwide sales are estimated at 2.5 million, which is impressive for a single player game of this nature, but it's not a good case for proving that WoW vanilla longterm viability - because a WoW vanilla player and a Dark Soul player are two entirely different segments

    The first Diablo game was released in 1996, an entirely different era of gaming and playerbase. Again a Diablo 1 is an ARPG, and a 1996 Diablo 1 player is pretty different than a WoW vanilla player in 2004. I have many friends who were hardcore D1 players that hated MMORPGs. It's 2 different genres.


    Now also take into consideration that with each WoW expansion Blizzard made gameplay changes, that were more casual friendly and less harsh than vanilla, so with expansion WoW was moving towards more casual and yet it grew the playerbase.

    It's not like BC and WotLK were 100% the same as vanilla - they weren't, Blizzard was already moving the game in the easier/more casual direction. 



    Also that big drop at beginning of 2011 - that was Rift launch - it was rumored that WoW's subs dipped by a couple of million when Rift launched.
    Post edited by DMKano on
  • HeraseHerase LondonMember RarePosts: 919
    I don't think it's for the majority though, I would say they are a part of the playerbase, but wound't say they're the majority. I think Blizz is following a trend, but wants to pull more of those in who are willing to pay more than they need to or those who are willing to pay for less. Example those who are willing to buy max levels boosts, store mounts/pets/items Wow tokens or happy to powerlevel and skip content.

    Imho it's not about the players, it about the money and tbh I don't care about the money they make and not sure why people do, unless that money is making actually positive changes to the game, I don't want to hear about tbh, I don't work there, why should I be concerned? 

    Imho the the changes were good for them in profits, but in terms of the game and playerbase, they've opened a can of worms they can't put back in. Don't get me wrong some change defo were needed, but in others it wasn't needed. You're right they're following the trends, but that isn't always the right direction, again maybe for them in profits, but for us as gamers, imho it isn't. Give people an inch and they want a mile. People are still asking that the game be more accessible as we speak, even though some would consider the game is at it's peak in accessibility, to the point you can PuG HC raids. Another example is the legendary system, the started by allowing some to obtain them by meaningful causes, but people complained and now they drop casually, also flying, these are corners they can't back out from even though they would love to and this is the problem when following trends, your at the whim of those players.

    A good example of a trend being followed and that are awful, Loot boxes. I can't in anyway see this as a good things for players, for companies yeah, more money, but we are the ones that lose out.







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