I dunno, crafting is generally so dull in MMOs so I think you just wouldn't get enough crafters making the whole thing pointless.
Now if you could create a crafter/merchant class that actually were fun to play it would work but you would need far better crafting mechanics for that then we seen before. You also would probably add stuff like being able to have player owned stores, running caravans and such because even if you make crafting really fun (something not even SWG really succeeded with even if it did the best try so far) people will have to have more then just crafting to do.
And unless they themselves can harvest enough to earn rather much I don't see how they could afford buying the rare mats you are talking about from adventurers, I don't think I ever seen any pure crafter getting good loot after all and with the standard MMO hyper inflation a month after launch most if not all crafters will be poor.
That is one of the main reasons most games have them as adventurers as well, in MMOs it is good loot that makes you rich, crafting is generally just a side activity.
I am not saying that it can't be done but it will be very hard to get more then a rare few have their main character as just a crafter.
Now, a merchant class that have crafting as one of it's skills is easier to sell as long as it adds other thing to the mix as well. Maybe the merchant can identify and appraise the other guys loot for instance. Maybe they can breed mounts, ship goods on caravans that hire in heroes for protection. That still isn't enough but it would be a start.'
Just a crafter with no other skills is not something I see working unless you make a Minecraft styled MMO.
there are gamers who have played 'mainstream games' as well as 'indie games' and then there are those who havent.
you appear to be one who hasnt.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Each to their own playstyle, for me it sounds dumb - and mind you, I'm really into crafting. But having a character in a large world just sitting at home and crafting, that sounds boring as f.ck, even if the crafting itself is just as detailed as Vanguard's system was. Oh, and an fyi, "adventuring" is definitely not equals "able to fight in combat", except maybe in lame combat-focused games...
Even as a crafter I want to explore the world, do missions and participate in the story, gather my resources and learn new recipes, etc. You still can separate the crafting part within your regular character (like Vanguard did) and still build a social environment. I really loved LotRO's crafting for example (it is still great, but when you had crafting quests too it was even better... now it's more streamlined), with the Vocations you can never be truly independent and you always need to rely on fellow players.
"It also separates players who just like to Adventure and players who really enjoy Crafting to both make decent coin in the process." This also eludes me... you can be a well-known crafter even if it is not separated into an another character... With LotRO as an example, if someone is not interested in crafting, s/he can ignore it entirely, while a crafter can be recognised even outside the kinship, regardless of the "adventurer" level is at the cap or just somewhere casually in the middle. I don't see any advantages of separating the characters just for that... (and I'm an avid altoholic, so I don't have any issues to make more characters for any reasons )
I say no at the point of the use of the word 'classes'
as far as I am concerned class based systems are dead and gone
I would have to disagree. There are plenty of mmo titles out there who use class base system. But, let's not derail the topic of the OP please.
those games to be frank are dead and gone. They represent the past
and so then is RPG....These are supposed to be "Role" playing games...Roles involve classes.....Once they blur that line and make it so one character can do anything the role playing is all but dead.
The problem is that crafting alone is often almost impossible (like, you need to be a certain level for the recipes, but you level like a hundred times faster with fighting), not fun (having to press one button, wait an hour..or days..for the item to be finished, only for it to be worthless due to random rolls or so) or pointless (better equipment in dungeons, having to sell things at a loss, not being able to sell things at all).
You don't have to seperate it strictly. You don't have to make players choose "fighter" or "blacksmith" as class. You can get rid of classes completely even. Ultima Online, which was already cited, *didn't* seperate it. Not that way.
On the contrary. Both crafting and fighting could raise stats, so you got better at the other one, too. Actually, everything you did could raise certain stats. While your specific crafting or fighting skill (blacksmithing, alchemist, sword skill, staff skill as examples) would only get better with actually using it, stats are indepedent.
But you still could not do everything at the same time. Crafting meant your character was busy, so you could not fight. Not like "background" crafting like in e.g. Neverwinter. So someone who focused on one skill would progress faster.
And then progression would become really slow the higher your stats and skill level, so you had to spent years if you wanted to be the best at everything.
The best system? Dunno. Not that there is much competition in that field. But it showed already almost 20 years ago that having technically no restrictions is possible without everyone actually being able to do everything.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
I say no at the point of the use of the word 'classes'
as far as I am concerned class based systems are dead and gone
I would have to disagree. There are plenty of mmo titles out there who use class base system. But, let's not derail the topic of the OP please.
those games to be frank are dead and gone. They represent the past
and so then is RPG....These are supposed to be "Role" playing games...Roles involve classes.....Once they blur that line and make it so one character can do anything the role playing is all but dead.
that is a very weak arguement as to why classes are good
'because the R is RPG means roles'
really?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I generally like crafting. My biggest beef is when it's tied to adventure leveling and the levels are incompatible with each other. For example at 10 adventure i can use an iron sword but I can't craft it till my crafting is lvl 20 and the materials are all surrounded by lvl 20 mobs. Then the process continues. Completely annoying.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
What I don't like is when taking crafting makes you weaker as an adventurer -- over and beyond the fact that you are splitting your time. 200 skill points -- oops you "wasted" 40 on crafting vs someone who has none.
I am not exactly pleased either when crafting makes you more powerful as an adventurer -- over and beyond the fact that you can make yourself equipment and/or get rich through crafting. Example: Rings that are bind on acquire that are crafted and equal or beyond raid gear. This leads to everyone being required to craft and possibly to have specific craft classes // skills to complement specific classes.
Voted no, just because of the standard implementation of crafting. In the vast majority of games, crafting as an exercise is boring as fuck, so is gathering, the majority of stuff you make is pointless so the only enjoyable bit comes with playing the auction house.
However, if you made all the best gear in game craftable (creating a decent ingame economy) and made the crafting game fun in itself, then I'm fine with them being separated. So, SWG did a great job with crafting, it was pretty dull getting up to master but once there it was enjoyable.
I am a firm believer in the Bartle's taxonomy of player types. I have seen the response of the Killer (Adventurer / PvP) types when it comes to Achievers (Crafters), they don't want to be tied to Crafters.....
I have a proble with that break down.
1. I dont see crafters as 'achievers' they are not the ones who are comparing their stats with others. 2. I do see 'killer' as competitive which can be argued to be an 'achiever'.
whoever came up with those personality types needs to go back to the drawing board
Allow me to clarify the situation.
Achievers are the intellectuals. They don't have to compare stats with other, they understand the meaning of the stats of a solo player What they seek to achieve is a better understanding of the game and its mechanics. They understand and use every element of the game to give them selves power. They see value in everything. These players will do, and use every game mechanic to achieve higher status. PvE, Crafting, Harvesting, Auction House, Cash Shop, Lore, Exploring, and PvP, and Raiding; Achievers do it all.
Killers are animals, non intellectuals. They see little or no value to other game mechanics, besides PvP. They Show minimum interest in the other aspects of the game PvE, Crafting, Exploring or Socializing. They often complain about crafting and having to rely on crafters. They will insist that Best In Slot (BIS) be acquired from Raiding or PvP only. They will complain about F2P games being P2W. They may talk and compare stats, but they don't truly understand this, they are copying behavior seen being used by Achievers. Put two animals in a cage and they will fight. This has nothing to do with Achieving.
No valid proof has been presented to dispute Bartle's player types.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I am a firm believer in the Bartle's taxonomy of player types. I have seen the response of the Killer (Adventurer / PvP) types when it comes to Achievers (Crafters), they don't want to be tied to Crafters.....
I have a proble with that break down.
1. I dont see crafters as 'achievers' they are not the ones who are comparing their stats with others. 2. I do see 'killer' as competitive which can be argued to be an 'achiever'.
whoever came up with those personality types needs to go back to the drawing board
Allow me to clarify the situation.
Achievers are the intellectuals. They don't have to compare stats with other, they understand the meaning of the stats of a solo player What they seek to achieve is a better understanding of the game and its mechanics. They understand and use every element of the game to give them selves power. They see value in everything. These players will do, and use every game mechanic to achieve higher status. PvE, Crafting, Harvesting, Auction House, Cash Shop, Lore, Exploring, and PvP, and Raiding; Achievers do it all.
Killers are animals, non intellectuals. They see little or no value to other game mechanics, besides PvP. They Show minimum interest in the other aspects of the game PvE, Crafting, Exploring or Socializing. They often complain about crafting and having to rely on crafters. They will insist that Best In Slot (BIS) be acquired from Raiding or PvP only. They will complain about F2P games being P2W. They may talk and compare stats, but they don't truly understand this, they are copying behavior seen being used by Achievers. Put two animals in a cage and they will fight. This has nothing to do with Achieving.
No valid proof has been presented to dispute Bartle's player types.
I think the descriptions are fine I am just not a fan of the word 'achievers' for that personality type. Maybe 'explorer'. I just know in real life the smart ones are usually not much of 'achievers' if you know what I mean
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The problem there was the macro system, not the skill trees. Yeah, if I put some points into a crafting skill I don't have as many for combat. However, that's MY choice. I want to make the decisions again. Edit: forgot the reason I said yes. I know not many people prefer crafting, I'm one of them. I will happily gather all day though, and make friends with a crafter or two and make sure they stay supplied.
Exactly. You said yes to separation of adventuring and crafting, as seen in SWG. When you have the common point pool, and spending that pool takes away from the other profession, that is a separation of professions.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
why cant it just be like real life...want to be good at something, learn it, do it. if you want to be a great fisherman who also likes to crochet hats you can.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I am a firm believer in the Bartle's taxonomy of player types. I have seen the response of the Killer (Adventurer / PvP) types when it comes to Achievers (Crafters), they don't want to be tied to Crafters.....
I have a proble with that break down.
1. I dont see crafters as 'achievers' they are not the ones who are comparing their stats with others. 2. I do see 'killer' as competitive which can be argued to be an 'achiever'.
whoever came up with those personality types needs to go back to the drawing board
Allow me to clarify the situation.
Achievers are the intellectuals. They don't have to compare stats with other, they understand the meaning of the stats of a solo player What they seek to achieve is a better understanding of the game and its mechanics. They understand and use every element of the game to give them selves power. They see value in everything. These players will do, and use every game mechanic to achieve higher status. PvE, Crafting, Harvesting, Auction House, Cash Shop, Lore, Exploring, and PvP, and Raiding; Achievers do it all.
Killers are animals, non intellectuals. They see little or no value to other game mechanics, besides PvP. They Show minimum interest in the other aspects of the game PvE, Crafting, Exploring or Socializing. They often complain about crafting and having to rely on crafters. They will insist that Best In Slot (BIS) be acquired from Raiding or PvP only. They will complain about F2P games being P2W. They may talk and compare stats, but they don't truly understand this, they are copying behavior seen being used by Achievers. Put two animals in a cage and they will fight. This has nothing to do with Achieving.
No valid proof has been presented to dispute Bartle's player types.
Whoa, "killers are animals," not sure where you fall on the scale but I can understand why they would enjoy killing you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Has there ever been any proof in support of Bartles types? Or is it just his own papers and opinions?
Edit -just skimmed his paper. He presents several studies as to why they did their observational study. The end result is a naming platform that he feels explains what they saw. Is this supported anywhere else?
I've read literally dozens of studies about personality types. This just seems like yet another one with their own interpretation.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Within classless systems I find games with skill caps to be some of the worst models. The games always end up with people rolling alt after alt after alt. In the end they don't so much limit one person from doing everything as they do just make it incredibly annoying in that you have to juggle a ton of characters to do so. See Mortal Online and low skillcap Life is Feudal servers.
More effective systems simply have long progressions for crafting skills so that being a specialist allows you to reach heights in certain skills that more "jack of all trades" characters could never hope to achieve unless they have been playing for an eternity. Then you can limit combat characters by simply limiting how many skills they can effectively use at once through features like limited skill slots or making effective use of your skills requiring certain equipment. See EVE and Darkfall Unholy Wars.
That being said I have always found it a terrible system when a game requires you to advance to a certain level as a combat character in order to progress your crafting trees. Combat and crafting should be separate systems. Characters should never be forced to progress one in order to progress the other. So to that extent I do believe in their separation.
Achievers are the intellectuals. They don't have to compare stats with other, they understand the meaning of the stats of a solo player What they seek to achieve is a better understanding of the game and its mechanics. They understand and use every element of the game to give them selves power. They see value in everything. These players will do, and use every game mechanic to achieve higher status. PvE, Crafting, Harvesting, Auction House, Cash Shop, Lore, Exploring, and PvP, and Raiding; Achievers do it all.
Killers are animals, non intellectuals. They see little or no value to other game mechanics, besides PvP. They Show minimum interest in the other aspects of the game PvE, Crafting, Exploring or Socializing. They often complain about crafting and having to rely on crafters. They will insist that Best In Slot (BIS) be acquired from Raiding or PvP only. They will complain about F2P games being P2W. They may talk and compare stats, but they don't truly understand this, they are copying behavior seen being used by Achievers. Put two animals in a cage and they will fight. This has nothing to do with Achieving.
No valid proof has been presented to dispute Bartle's player types.
"SKEA players enjoy teamwork and cooperation, but feel that the main challenges of a virtual world come from the other players rather than the environment. They enjoy forming groups and alliances that will pit themselves against other players--and they gain the most satisfaction when they defeat organized groups of other players. When they aren't playing against other players, they enjoy all of the social aspects of the game."
Socializer Killers love our crafters. Infact I personally love crafting myself when it furthers the strength and goals of my group. Your assessment of PvPers is one short sighted, dismissive, and frankly ignorant.
The thing that killed me in games that didn't allow me to craft everything was creating a gazillion alts. Come to think of it even in FFXIV that allows one to do everything on one character, on my first play through I tried almost every profession like a loon and got burnt out. My guild kept telling me I was going to get burnt out but like a brave candle I soldiered on.
Comments
there are gamers who have played 'mainstream games' as well as 'indie games' and then there are those who havent.
you appear to be one who hasnt.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Each to their own playstyle, for me it sounds dumb - and mind you, I'm really into crafting. But having a character in a large world just sitting at home and crafting, that sounds boring as f.ck, even if the crafting itself is just as detailed as Vanguard's system was.
Oh, and an fyi, "adventuring" is definitely not equals "able to fight in combat", except maybe in lame combat-focused games...
Even as a crafter I want to explore the world, do missions and participate in the story, gather my resources and learn new recipes, etc. You still can separate the crafting part within your regular character (like Vanguard did) and still build a social environment.
I really loved LotRO's crafting for example (it is still great, but when you had crafting quests too it was even better... now it's more streamlined), with the Vocations you can never be truly independent and you always need to rely on fellow players.
"It also separates players who just like to Adventure and players who really enjoy Crafting to both make decent coin in the process."
This also eludes me... you can be a well-known crafter even if it is not separated into an another character... With LotRO as an example, if someone is not interested in crafting, s/he can ignore it entirely, while a crafter can be recognised even outside the kinship, regardless of the "adventurer" level is at the cap or just somewhere casually in the middle.
I don't see any advantages of separating the characters just for that... (and I'm an avid altoholic, so I don't have any issues to make more characters for any reasons
and so then is RPG....These are supposed to be "Role" playing games...Roles involve classes.....Once they blur that line and make it so one character can do anything the role playing is all but dead.
You don't have to seperate it strictly. You don't have to make players choose "fighter" or "blacksmith" as class. You can get rid of classes completely even. Ultima Online, which was already cited, *didn't* seperate it. Not that way.
On the contrary. Both crafting and fighting could raise stats, so you got better at the other one, too. Actually, everything you did could raise certain stats. While your specific crafting or fighting skill (blacksmithing, alchemist, sword skill, staff skill as examples) would only get better with actually using it, stats are indepedent.
But you still could not do everything at the same time. Crafting meant your character was busy, so you could not fight. Not like "background" crafting like in e.g. Neverwinter. So someone who focused on one skill would progress faster.
And then progression would become really slow the higher your stats and skill level, so you had to spent years if you wanted to be the best at everything.
The best system? Dunno. Not that there is much competition in that field. But it showed already almost 20 years ago that having technically no restrictions is possible without everyone actually being able to do everything.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
that is a very weak arguement as to why classes are good
'because the R is RPG means roles'
really?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
the second I find out a game has classes I stop looking at it and move on.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I am not exactly pleased either when crafting makes you more powerful as an adventurer -- over and beyond the fact that you can make yourself equipment and/or get rich through crafting. Example: Rings that are bind on acquire that are crafted and equal or beyond raid gear. This leads to everyone being required to craft and possibly to have specific craft classes // skills to complement specific classes.
However, if you made all the best gear in game craftable (creating a decent ingame economy) and made the crafting game fun in itself, then I'm fine with them being separated. So, SWG did a great job with crafting, it was pretty dull getting up to master but once there it was enjoyable.
- Achievers are the intellectuals. They don't have to compare stats with other, they understand the meaning of the stats of a solo player What they seek to achieve is a better understanding of the game and its mechanics. They understand and use every element of the game to give them selves power. They see value in everything. These players will do, and use every game mechanic to achieve higher status. PvE, Crafting, Harvesting, Auction House, Cash Shop, Lore, Exploring, and PvP, and Raiding; Achievers do it all.
- Killers are animals, non intellectuals. They see little or no value to other game mechanics, besides PvP. They Show minimum interest in the other aspects of the game PvE, Crafting, Exploring or Socializing. They often complain about crafting and having to rely on crafters. They will insist that Best In Slot (BIS) be acquired from Raiding or PvP only. They will complain about F2P games being P2W. They may talk and compare stats, but they don't truly understand this, they are copying behavior seen being used by Achievers. Put two animals in a cage and they will fight. This has nothing to do with Achieving.
No valid proof has been presented to dispute Bartle's player types.Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I think the descriptions are fine I am just not a fan of the word 'achievers' for that personality type. Maybe 'explorer'. I just know in real life the smart ones are usually not much of 'achievers' if you know what I mean
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Exactly. You said yes to separation of adventuring and crafting, as seen in SWG. When you have the common point pool, and spending that pool takes away from the other profession, that is a separation of professions.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
why cant it just be like real life...want to be good at something, learn it, do it. if you want to be a great fisherman who also likes to crochet hats you can.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Whoa, "killers are animals," not sure where you fall on the scale but I can understand why they would enjoy killing you.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Edit -just skimmed his paper. He presents several studies as to why they did their observational study. The end result is a naming platform that he feels explains what they saw. Is this supported anywhere else?
I've read literally dozens of studies about personality types. This just seems like yet another one with their own interpretation.
Within classless systems I find games with skill caps to be some of the worst models. The games always end up with people rolling alt after alt after alt. In the end they don't so much limit one person from doing everything as they do just make it incredibly annoying in that you have to juggle a ton of characters to do so. See Mortal Online and low skillcap Life is Feudal servers.
More effective systems simply have long progressions for crafting skills so that being a specialist allows you to reach heights in certain skills that more "jack of all trades" characters could never hope to achieve unless they have been playing for an eternity. Then you can limit combat characters by simply limiting how many skills they can effectively use at once through features like limited skill slots or making effective use of your skills requiring certain equipment. See EVE and Darkfall Unholy Wars.
That being said I have always found it a terrible system when a game requires you to advance to a certain level as a combat character in order to progress your crafting trees. Combat and crafting should be separate systems. Characters should never be forced to progress one in order to progress the other. So to that extent I do believe in their separation.
Socializer Killers love our crafters. Infact I personally love crafting myself when it furthers the strength and goals of my group. Your assessment of PvPers is one short sighted, dismissive, and frankly ignorant.
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I agree, but those roles are on different gameplay levels. Crafting is not associated with combat, it's more of a passive role if you will.