Ironically this game has never been worse for new players

ThebeastttThebeasttt Grah, ALMember RarePosts: 1,038
Blizzard try as they may, they always seem to shoot themselves in the foot. They make every class easier to play but because the gear gap has never been higher, it is a complete nightmare catching up, especially on a pvp server. This is because the combination of artifacts, legendaries and gear cause such a power spike, it feels like you're level 5 by comparison. Raid tanks can literally solo 4 middle end players with minimal effort, simply because they take 0 damage but deal almost as much as a dedicated dps.

I'm seeing all kinds of stupid **** that should never happen, like 920 dk tanks outhealing 880 healers, 920 healers outdamaging 880 dps and so on. Have fun trying to catch up in Mythics, you will have to do +2-5's for an eternity before you're ready for +10-15. Just so many bad gear design choices that casts a fog over any positive changes they might have done.

I've been playing WoW since launch and have never felt further behind than I do in Legion, and that's with the artifact catchup mechanics in patch 7.2. I can't even imagine before. If you don't already have a character in Legion, my advice is don't even bother.

Comments

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSMember UncommonPosts: 1,220
    edited April 24
    Meh. I started leveling a rogue from level 103 after 7.2 hit, and just doing WQ's, invasions, bg's, passing in Nethershards and an occasional reg mythic for quests. I don't personally give a shit about pushing for high end raiding or anything, and I'm pretty easily at ilvl 882 without a second legendary, and I feel fine.

    Just gotta go in with a different mindset and not worry about catching up as quickly as possible. It's a lot of RNG and that'll just frustrate you.
    Post edited by Ghavrigg on
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Grah, ALMember RarePosts: 1,038
    You can go with that mindset because you don't care about high end anything. For the rest of us, this grind is atrocious.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,694
    As far as PvP in MMORPGs go - this is an issue in games that have been running for a long time - the gear gap widens over time.

    No wonder why many PvP players shy away from MMORPGs where gear means everything and play games like MOBAs or FPS games where gear means nothing.
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Grah, ALMember RarePosts: 1,038

    DMKano said:

    As far as PvP in MMORPGs go - this is an issue in games that have been running for a long time - the gear gap widens over time.

    No wonder why many PvP players shy away from MMORPGs where gear means everything and play games like MOBAs or FPS games where gear means nothing.


    This is true but i've been playing WoW since the beginning. The gear gap is worse than ever because of artifacts, mass legendaries and huge stat jumps. It's extra sad because they were trying to make the game more accessible and did just the opposite.
  • pantaropantaro Member UncommonPosts: 329

    DMKano said:

    As far as PvP in MMORPGs go - this is an issue in games that have been running for a long time - the gear gap widens over time.

    No wonder why many PvP players shy away from MMORPGs where gear means everything and play games like MOBAs or FPS games where gear means nothing.


    you would think this would be common sense. pvp should always be about skill not gear or is it even really pvp anymore?
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,694

    pantaro said:



    DMKano said:


    As far as PvP in MMORPGs go - this is an issue in games that have been running for a long time - the gear gap widens over time.

    No wonder why many PvP players shy away from MMORPGs where gear means everything and play games like MOBAs or FPS games where gear means nothing.




    you would think this would be common sense. pvp should always be about skill not gear or is it even really pvp anymore?



    I guess its like Fishing with dynamite - technically its still fishing, but kind of takes the whole sport out of it.





  • IshkalIshkal Schaumburg, ILMember UncommonPosts: 202
    Well that doesn't make sense man each expansion a blue piece of gear is better then and epic before it and epic better then legendries with very few exceptions and they hand em out like candy these days. At most yer a few months behind if you just started and that's only for top tier stuff, at most a week or two behind to compete.
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSMember UncommonPosts: 1,220
    edited April 24






    You can go with that mindset because you don't care about high end anything. For the rest of us, this grind is atrocious.






    Yup. They clearly don't want you to play the game. Casual is best. :proud:

    Though atm, you can compete in raiding just fine. The new raid tier won't even be out for a while yet.
    Post edited by Ghavrigg on
  • t0nydt0nyd Evansville, INMember UncommonPosts: 289
    edited April 24



    DMKano said:



    As far as PvP in MMORPGs go - this is an issue in games that have been running for a long time - the gear gap widens over time.

    No wonder why many PvP players shy away from MMORPGs where gear means everything and play games like MOBAs or FPS games where gear means nothing.






     Pretty much why i cant stand PvP in most mmorpg. They begin by limiting player choice as much as possible while forcing you into a specific gear set. This is why I enjoyed Guildwars PvP so much. You chose your classes, spent your points, and picked which abilities that you wanted. You could create a character to suit your playstyle in PvP. Gear was a side thought.

     I do think gear should matter. Gear simply shouldnt be the sole variable that determines the outcome of a fight. I like when certain weapons are weak or strong against certain armors. I like how fast dagger attacks can overwhelm a mage but do little to platemail. The problem is that mmorpg veered away from this kind of play. Now gear just gives you more strength or health. TBH i dont understand why gear gives health. I guess it would be ok in a limited fashion but gives gears everything now.
    Post edited by t0nyd on
  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAMember EpicPosts: 6,029
    The gear gap is pretty severe. The difference in 10 ilvls now is a lot more than I remember it being before. And it goes beyond just ilvl as well.

    The kick in the pants is, there's a big part gated behind your artifact progression. Your artifact plays very heavily into your overall performance. A lot of traits are straight up overall % increases. Get the right secondary artifacts (rings/armor/etc), and that's another big change in performance.

    Artifact Power is gated behind Artifact Knowledge. Artifact Knowledge is timed (one per every few days or so), you are not able to just sit and grind Artifact Power without AK behind it. If you were late to the party on AK, your screwed. Sure, there's a couple of catch-up mechanics (there's a server-wide decrease to the amount of time it takes to research, as well as tokens you can buy for alts once you have a main that goes through it), but the server-wide mechanic is not terribly effective at allowing players to catch up, as your still days between AK ranks, and still grinding just as much AP in between that.

    Add in the 3 extra gear slots they snuck in on the artifacts (relics), and yeah, Legion is the most gear-oriented expansion I've ever seen.

    I'm still playing, 7.2 changed the treadmill a bit and that kept me interested. I had stopped for a few weeks before 7.2, as I had gotten more or less stuck in iLvl (got all I could from casual content and don't have the time to dedicate to a raiding crew). We'll see how long this lasts.
  • mcrippinsmcrippins Dallas, TXMember RarePosts: 1,308
    Actually i've never found it easier to catch up. Leveling from 100-110 can be done in a couple of days casually. Once you're 110 gearing up to around 880 is super easy doing WQ, raid finder, pvp, etc. Artifact knowledge can be boosted to 25+ by doing a quest on the new island. So i'm not really sure what you're on about. 
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,274

    mcrippins said:

    Actually i've never found it easier to catch up. Leveling from 100-110 can be done in a couple of days casually. Once you're 110 gearing up to around 880 is super easy doing WQ, raid finder, pvp, etc. Artifact knowledge can be boosted to 25+ by doing a quest on the new island. So i'm not really sure what you're on about. 


    It would appear from the OP getting to 920 is not so easy (lots of grinding) but until you do expect to have your ass handed to you in PVP if only at 880.

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • mcrippinsmcrippins Dallas, TXMember RarePosts: 1,308

    Kyleran said:



    mcrippins said:


    Actually i've never found it easier to catch up. Leveling from 100-110 can be done in a couple of days casually. Once you're 110 gearing up to around 880 is super easy doing WQ, raid finder, pvp, etc. Artifact knowledge can be boosted to 25+ by doing a quest on the new island. So i'm not really sure what you're on about. 




    It would appear from the OP getting to 920 is not so easy (lots of grinding) but until you do expect to have your ass handed to you in PVP if only at 880.



    First off - getting to 920 is not easy and only a handful of people have been able to do it. This is not a realistic expectation. Unless you're a part of a top tier mythic raiding guild. Even those guys are not 920 for the most part. If the OP is simply referring to world PvP, then I'd love to know how he's encountering these 920 ilvl players, lol. If he's in battlegrounds, then the gear scores become much less valuable. Legendary items do not work in BGs and stats are squished.
  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,787
    edited April 24
    This is the problem with PvP in MMORPGs this progression and the fact that people have no patience for it. They want to become quickly qualified and able to be competitive but because of all the progression involved it takes time. They want it based on skill but MMORPG players like to build up their characters and collect gear so that gear should mean something. That's the cornerstone of MMORPGs that you lovingly build up your character however these goals are at odds with what PvP enthusiasts want which is why open world PvP in these types of games are an anomaly. 

    You can have controlled environments where matching and artificial restrictions are placed and customizations is allowed like the PvP in GW2 or in battlegrounds. Surely anyone PvPing in MMORPGs should have realised this by now.
    Post edited by cheyane on
    image
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,437
    Lets not forget the lovely Legendary RNG. I like that I have 5 meh legendaries at best on my alliance warlock and then roll a horde warlock getting the one I wanted on my main as the first one on my alt. GJ blizzard!
  • d_20d_20 SeoulMember RarePosts: 1,577

    Albatroes said:

    Lets not forget the lovely Legendary RNG. I like that I have 5 meh legendaries at best on my alliance warlock and then roll a horde warlock getting the one I wanted on my main as the first one on my alt. GJ blizzard!


    For the Horde!!! 

    image
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,694

    cheyane said:

    This is the problem with PvP in MMORPGs this progression and the fact that people have no patience for it. They want to become quickly qualified and able to be competitive but because of all the progression involved it takes time. They want it based on skill but MMORPG players like to build up their characters and collect gear so that gear should mean something. That's the cornerstone of MMORPGs that you lovingly build up your character however these goals are at odds with what PvP enthusiasts want which is why open world PvP in these types of games are an anomaly. 

    You can have controlled environments where matching and artificial restrictions are placed and customizations is allowed like the PvP in GW2 or in battlegrounds. Surely anyone PvPing in MMORPGs should have realised this by now.




    I think players want the freedom of not being artificially equalized in PvP but also not to be crushed by superior gear.

    I guess as long as  they are the one on top of the food chain in superior gear - its fine ;)


  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,274

    mcrippins said:



    Kyleran said:





    mcrippins said:



    Actually i've never found it easier to catch up. Leveling from 100-110 can be done in a couple of days casually. Once you're 110 gearing up to around 880 is super easy doing WQ, raid finder, pvp, etc. Artifact knowledge can be boosted to 25+ by doing a quest on the new island. So i'm not really sure what you're on about. 






    It would appear from the OP getting to 920 is not so easy (lots of grinding) but until you do expect to have your ass handed to you in PVP if only at 880.





    First off - getting to 920 is not easy and only a handful of people have been able to do it. This is not a realistic expectation. Unless you're a part of a top tier mythic raiding guild. Even those guys are not 920 for the most part. If the OP is simply referring to world PvP, then I'd love to know how he's encountering these 920 ilvl players, lol. If he's in battlegrounds, then the gear scores become much less valuable. Legendary items do not work in BGs and stats are squished.


    OP implies 920s regularly crushing 880s....but hyperbole is strong in these sorts of threads.

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,600
    MMOs have done it and so can Blizzard. Entering PvP battlegrounds can make gear null. Everyone on equal footing. Blizzard knows what they are doing and its part of their business plan. People chasing down PvE and PvP gear. I quit WoW long ago just to get off that treadmill. As a Paladin I had a healing PvP and PvE set and the same for my DPS set. After a few expansions I was burnt out. Got to the point I hated new content. Was one of the big reasons I stopped playing WoW. 



  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Grah, ALMember RarePosts: 1,038
    For PvP servers the way they released Legion flying makes the issue 10 times worse. Now you have only the most geared vets with flying mounts dominating noobs on their slow ground mounts.... Meanwhile trying to play catchup with the most RNG gear system in the history of WoW makes the game more trouble than it's worth.

    If anyone doesn't understand the hate Holinka receives, they need look no further than this thread.
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Grah, ALMember RarePosts: 1,038

    First off - getting to 920 is not easy and only a handful of people have been able to do it. This is not a realistic expectation. Unless you're a part of a top tier mythic raiding guild. Even those guys are not 920 for the most part. If the OP is simply referring to world PvP, then I'd love to know how he's encountering these 920 ilvl players, lol. If he's in battlegrounds, then the gear scores become much less valuable. Legendary items do not work in BGs and stats are squished.


    920 is an extreme example. As someone already pointed out the difference in 10 ilvl is huge. Everyone is around 900 which makes you a free kill because that equals 2 legendaries(completely RNG) and 1 million more health than you. As for battlegrounds, stats are only slightly squished. You can still expect to be very far behind regardless. My 887 toon has 800k-1million less health than everyone else in BG's and arenas so don't expect normalization to save you.

    PvE wise the problem is even worse because now you become a drag on every group you join, due to a 920 healer or 900 tank being able to out damage a 880 dps.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Novo Hamburgo - RS - BrazilMember EpicPosts: 2,248
    Power Creep, man. I remember people doing doctorate thesis on WoW power creep problems back in the day, I can't imagine how bad it is now.

    " Tawnos's blueprints were critical to the creation of my armor. As he once sealed himself in steel, I sealed myself in a walking crypt. "
    —Urza

    - Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102
  • XodicXodic RealityMember RarePosts: 672

    Nyctelios said:

    I remember people doing doctorate thesis on WoW power creep problems 

    You can't be serious...




    Are you serious?
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