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Morrowind PTS Patch Notes Released, Controversy Sparked - Elder Scrolls Online News

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member Posts: 10,498 Rare
    edited April 20


    Torval said:
    But I'm talking about growth within a single game.


    Same thing.

    The rest of the post is a mixture of subjective opinion and ex-post conjectures.
  • TorvalTorval Member Posts: 12,459 Legendary
    It is observational conjecture, anecdotal experience. It is relevant, just not able to carry an argument on its own.

    You dismiss some conclusions drawn on facts as well. Conceptually unlimited growth might have an argument. Pragmatically it doesn't exist and hasn't yet ever in the mmo industry. You're ignoring that while focusing on the possibility of the concept.

    Many mmo devs seem to do that as this corner of the industry still hasn't figured out a consistent way to sell their games. Businesses change revenue models over time and the lifecycle of their products. MMOs change revenue models like the wind blows. Why is that? Something isn't working and they've not figured out what does.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member Posts: 10,498 Rare

    Torval said:

    It is observational conjecture, anecdotal experience. It is relevant, just not able to carry an argument on its own.

    You
    dismiss some conclusions drawn on facts as well. Conceptually unlimited
    growth might have an argument. Pragmatically it doesn't exist and
    hasn't yet ever in the mmo industry. You're ignoring that while focusing
    on the possibility of the concept.

    Many mmo devs seem to do that
    as this corner of the industry still hasn't figured out a consistent
    way to sell their games. Businesses change revenue models over time and
    the lifecycle of their products. MMOs change revenue models like the
    wind blows. Why is that? Something isn't working and they've not figured
    out what does.


    Not at all.

    Devalued, balance, excellent B2P model, etc. all those are just your biased qualifiers.

    Essentially you are saying that company is trying to make as much money as they can which I do not disagree with but you seem to be creating some weird structure of pseudo-reasoning around it...

    /shrugs
  • TorvalTorval Member Posts: 12,459 Legendary
    They're overcharging for what they deliver like most every mmo. That "weird structure of reasoning" is the explanation of why I think it is. It only seems odd because we never bother reasoning through anything here.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember Posts: 4,726 Epic
    ESO are doing whatever they can to get your money has been no surprise. How many games put respecs and inventory space in their cash shops?

    Not surprising Warden would be op and that the expansion would cost as much as a separate game to purchase, then after a few months Warden will be nerted. I've found the best way to play nearly any MMO is to level several classes so when the nerf bat swings you can just play another alt until it gets buffed again. Rotating buffs and nerfs are nothing new in MMO's.

    I saw a player yesterday with 700 cp. So a nerf there isn't surprising either. More work for less return. The game is what it is, profit hungry over fun factor, which is why it's not worth a sub to me.

    "Change is the only constant."

  • GdemamiGdemami Member Posts: 10,498 Rare
    edited April 20
    Torval said:
    They're overcharging for what they deliver like most every mmo.
    See, nothing more but personal bias qualifiers...
  • TorvalTorval Member Posts: 12,459 Legendary

    Gdemami said:

    Torval said:
    They're overcharging for what they deliver like most every mmo.
    See, nothing more but personal bias qualifiers...


    Subjective opinion is bias. Using bias to dismiss opinion. That works in an echo chamber.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYMember Posts: 879 Uncommon
    I had this happen when I was a priest in Vanilla WoW running Molten Core. People will live.
    The day I got Benediction was one of the best, up there with Fiery Defender and Spear of Fate.



    Restores based on the maximum resource pool - These abilities were simply too effective once you obtained a significant pool size.
    Cost reduction & recovery passives - Several of these passives were over-performing and have been adjusted.
    Group based buffs/synergies - Several of these abilities were near-mandatory in end-game situations and have been adjusted.
    Resource spend/gain rates - Abilities that cost either too much or too little were adjusted to ensure that each class and build type are spending and gaining resources at roughly the same rate.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member Posts: 10,498 Rare
    edited April 20
    Torval said:
    Subjective opinion is bias. Using bias to dismiss opinion. That works in an echo chamber.
    Erm no. I am not dismissing your opinion but 'reasoning' that is supposedly supporting it.

    In fact it is precisely the other way round - you can't discuss opinions, only the reasoning behind them and when reasoning is substituted with bias, there is nothing left to discuss.

    Besides, I did pointed out a flaw in your reasoning specifically - the need for continuous growth isn't a flaw as you percieve it(bias), it is a must.

  • MardukkMardukk Member Posts: 2,076 Uncommon
    I'm trying to figure out what I'm supposed to very upset about with those patch notes. Maybe I need to read them again to find a reason.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember Posts: 4,726 Epic


    just started playing on PS4 like two months ago. If anyone is planning on deleting their accounts....please send me your gold? Cinobandito is my gamertag. Please and thank you.... :-)


    Yeah, and I'll be glad to take it if it's a pc account.  I can always use the extra storage space.  :-)

    "Change is the only constant."

  • orbitxoorbitxo fort lauderdale, FLMember Posts: 1,900 Rare
    Devs are like politicians~ Always making changes and cutbacks to things they don't experience day to day.
  • timeraidertimeraider BredaMember Posts: 631 Uncommon
    People whining about stuff they havet tested yet. Only people in the morrowind PTS can have vocal opinions about it tbh. And guess what? Ow, those people seem to be positive and thinking everyone is crying over nothing.
    -----------
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember Posts: 9,108 Legendary
    A video that does a good job of explaining the problems with this particular set of changes. It'll probably mean a bit more to you if you're an old timer who remembers soft caps and life before the Champion Point power creep.

    He does throw a lot of F bombs around so be aware.


  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember Posts: 3,704 Rare

    tyrrin said:

    This wasn't just a nerf; the devs decided to destroy several classes by taking away critical passives that defined certain classes in order to force players to use the new warden class. This was the last draw for me, finally walking away from this game; I canceled my account, deleted my toons and uninstalled. I think that I am finally done with MMO's entirely.



    Yeah, this also happened in 5,0 swtor a couple of months back. MMO balancers sure are wacky these days...
  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member Posts: 2,537 Uncommon

    tyrrin said:

    This wasn't just a nerf; the devs decided to destroy several classes by taking away critical passives that defined certain classes in order to force players to use the new warden class. This was the last draw for me, finally walking away from this game; I canceled my account, deleted my toons and uninstalled. I think that I am finally done with MMO's entirely.



    I remember back in the old days, when a nerf came out, you adjusted to it. Now, people ragequit like little babies. Oh how the times have changed.
  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member Posts: 2,537 Uncommon

    Hariken said:

    All mmo's do this eventually. Its the nature of the genre. But yeah it sucks and if you want to play the game you have to go with the changes. I gave up on this game awhile ago because i got tired of the limited skills bar. If this was to sell the Warden class though bad move.



    What do you mean you "gave up" on the game because of the limited skill bar? The game had a limited (if you compare it to a game like WoW) skill bar from the very start. Did you think it would change? And honestly, I think this combat system is far more complex than a game that allows you to fill your entire screen up with hot keys, AND, you can actually see what you're doing =P

    So, I'm calling BS on your reasoning.
  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member Posts: 2,537 Uncommon


    I gave up on ESO long ago after 1) It became a chore rather than a joy to play because EVERYTHING had to be managed and maximized. It just wasn't fun and 2) They completely screwed all their long-term subscribers that have put 100s of dollars in their game as well as paid a monthly subscription by, basically, saying: "Guess what! You mean nothing. Go buy an entirely new game that's the same thing, but we know we can soak you for more money" rather than sticking to their standard practices of the last few years.



    I still have the game, but I haven't booted it up in months and cancelled my subscription.



    Good riddance.



    They've soiled the good name of TES. Call it what it is Zeni. A cash grab that is loosely (and I do mean loosely) related to a series of actually good games that was made by one of our owners other companies that we saw a chance to make oodles of money off of the gullible.



    Sheesh



    I've been playing since launch and still haven't played all the content, nor have I felt like I had to min/max or collect everything to be viable in my own eyes. I think the problem lies with you.
  • guizicaguizica Member Posts: 8 Uncommon

    DAS1337 said:



    tyrrin said:


    This wasn't just a nerf; the devs decided to destroy several classes by taking away critical passives that defined certain classes in order to force players to use the new warden class. This was the last draw for me, finally walking away from this game; I canceled my account, deleted my toons and uninstalled. I think that I am finally done with MMO's entirely.






    I remember back in the old days, when a nerf came out, you adjusted to it. Now, people ragequit like little babies. Oh how the times have changed.


    The thing with ESO is that they keep doing this constantly just to keep players busy and, in this particular case, to promote warden class. 

    The balancing that they are doing is not solving the problems that are present in the game right now. They are nerfing some classes to the ground, and on top of that magicka remains much more powerful than stamina in almost any case.
  • d_20d_20 SeoulMember Posts: 1,477 Rare
    edited April 21


    Iselin said:


    A video that does a good job of explaining the problems with this particular set of changes. It'll probably mean a bit more to you if you're an old timer who remembers soft caps and life before the Champion Point power creep.

    He does throw a lot of F bombs around so be aware.






    Fengrush (another streamer) is not happy with it either. The point is that people who play the game for a living, basically, are hypersensitive to these changes. 

    I'm not commenting on the business aspect of this, but I do think this is pertinent to those people saying "bunch of whiners" don't know what they're talking about. I believe that as far as people who are knowledgeable about the mechanics of the game, these guys are good sources of information and their points of view are based on experience playing the game.

    image
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember Posts: 9,108 Legendary
    edited April 21


    d_20 said:






    Iselin said:




    A video that does a good job of explaining the problems with this particular set of changes. It'll probably mean a bit more to you if you're an old timer who remembers soft caps and life before the Champion Point power creep.

    He does throw a lot of F bombs around so be aware.










    Fengrush (another streamer) is not happy with it either. The point is that people who play the game for a living, basically, are hypersensitive to these changes. 

    I'm not commenting on the business aspect of this, but I do think this is pertinent to those people saying "bunch of whiners" don't know what they're talking about. I believe that as far as people who are knowledgeable about the mechanics of the game, these guys are good sources of information and their points of view are based on experience playing the game.




    Some are better than others and more importantly, only some of the time.

    Deltia, for example has gone into full ragequit mode especially over the Templar changes and he's drawing a direct link in his opinion, between those Templar nerfs and the Warden being a P2W class.

    Alcast, OTOH, doesn't go there. He just points out intelligently the things that are good and the ones that are bad and gives valid reasons for his opinions. I also wholeheartedly agree with him that ZOS's system of making 1000 changes at once is stupid.

    It's those 1000 changes that people are ignoring as they focus on the nerfs to their favorite class that they hate the most. We never really know how things are going to work out with massive changes until they go live and we all come up with the best new way to do things.

    I think it'd be funny as hell if after all the angst about Templar nerfs and Warden P2W it turns out to be a Sorcerer using Dark Conversion and a Twilight Matriarch who ends up as the top healer just because of their better on demand resource regen.

    It's that resource regeneration thing that had become so trivial thanks to passives, CPs and gear that very few builds ever used drinks instead of food and there were very few fights where we even needed to think about managing it that's the big target here and what everyone will feel the most.

    I'm sure we'll figure out over time just how far to stack stats now that they are less beneficial (just a bit over 30K would be my guess now that most things will scale off your level and not your pool) and we'll see things like drinks that give you regen buffs becoming the FOTM, the BIS items will change again, the builds will get tweaked, etc. In other words business as usual after a major change.
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