Morrowind PTS Patch Notes Released, Controversy Sparked - Elder Scrolls Online News

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imageMorrowind PTS Patch Notes Released, Controversy Sparked - Elder Scrolls Online News

The flames of controversy are swirling around the Elder Scrolls Online forums thanks to today's release of the Morrowind PTS patch notes. Of particular concern to many players are the large changes being made to resource management and the effect it will have on some classes. Developers argue that resource management has become

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Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 15,899
    Nerfs are always fun, arent they? ;)
  • tyrrintyrrin tulsa, OKMember UncommonPosts: 35
    This wasn't just a nerf; the devs decided to destroy several classes by taking away critical passives that defined certain classes in order to force players to use the new warden class. This was the last draw for me, finally walking away from this game; I canceled my account, deleted my toons and uninstalled. I think that I am finally done with MMO's entirely.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 12,997
    Every time a game locks more quality of life feature behind a subscription they devalue the box fee you pay until it just becomes an additional tax. I really think they'd love to go back to the sub, like TOR and a couple others.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAMember RarePosts: 2,191
    I like the change. Players shouldn't be able spam abilities near infinitely.

    image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,465

    DMKano said:

    Nerfs are always fun, arent they? ;)


    The eternal quest for mediocrity: They think they've balanced something; we find the better options; they nerf those and buff the lesser ones; rinse, repeat.
    Obligatory new signature for the new forums so the reaction icons don't hide behind the "quote" button.
    And a second line just in case I need it.
  • DragnelusDragnelus UtrechtMember RarePosts: 1,655
    Templar healers!



    Wasnt sure about trying eso out but with this I see hope for the warden healer! Now I will check it out, never liked templar healing.


    DO NOT PRAY! If you pray, your hands will close together. You will not be able to fight!​​
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,465

    Torval said:

    Every time a game locks more quality of life feature behind a subscription they devalue the box fee you pay until it just becomes an additional tax. I really think they'd love to go back to the sub, like TOR and a couple others.


    At some point in their life cycle that initial box fee distinction of B2P games becomes rather silly when you compare it to just plain F2P games doesn't it? Especially so when it gets routinely discounted down under $10.

    Obligatory new signature for the new forums so the reaction icons don't hide behind the "quote" button.
    And a second line just in case I need it.
  • LheiahLheiah Winters, CAMember UncommonPosts: 154
    Poor, poor 'dps meter Joeys'. Toxicity to da the left, to the left, everything you own in the box to da left.

    Always believed worse thing game devs have ever done is expose numbers to players.
  • HarikenHariken Brighton, MAMember RarePosts: 1,613
    All mmo's do this eventually. Its the nature of the genre. But yeah it sucks and if you want to play the game you have to go with the changes. I gave up on this game awhile ago because i got tired of the limited skills bar. If this was to sell the Warden class though bad move.
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,465

    Hariken said:

    If this was to sell the Warden class though bad move.


    I'm not seeing that. The biggest nerfs are to resource management and + damage Champion Point passives and armor-based regen which affect all classes
    Obligatory new signature for the new forums so the reaction icons don't hide behind the "quote" button.
    And a second line just in case I need it.
  • HarikenHariken Brighton, MAMember RarePosts: 1,613

    Iselin said:



    Hariken said:


    If this was to sell the Warden class though bad move.




    I'm not seeing that. The biggest nerfs are to resource management and + damage Champion Point passives and armor-based regen which affect all classes


    I hope your right. At this point its hard to tell.
  • DragnelusDragnelus UtrechtMember RarePosts: 1,655

    Iselin said:



    Hariken said:


    If this was to sell the Warden class though bad move.




    I'm not seeing that. The biggest nerfs are to resource management and + damage Champion Point passives and armor-based regen which affect all classes


    Healing templar is nerfed hard, no more major mending. Nerfed spears and now every other healer can kinda use it with necro orb. And repentance dont gives stamina anymore. 


    DO NOT PRAY! If you pray, your hands will close together. You will not be able to fight!​​
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 12,997

    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:

    Nerfs are always fun, arent they? ;)

    The eternal quest for mediocrity: They think they've balanced something; we find the better options; they nerf those and buff the lesser ones; rinse, repeat.

    Turbine has had similar problems in the past with their class design and balance approach. Trying to parse it all could get long and windy. In short it's shows a lack of maturity in their design team and an even bigger flaw in the "design by team/committee" approach to game development.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • AlomarAlomar Middle EarthMember RarePosts: 827
    Resource management changes aren't the main issue the majority of the community disagrees with. This has always been a long believed issue that hindered balancing and made the game's combat too easy. The recent no cp pvp event really enlightened the remaining few who didn't believe this, and convinced the developers it was time for a change (players thought this 2 years ago).

    The "controversy" is about the continued class nerfs that this is just another example of, meanwhile the new class (warden) remains in a very strong advantage over all others. While ZOS's poor balancing attempts will likely ultimately nerf the warden, it will be delayed by months if not more. Making the Morrowind expansion not an optional but mandatory purchase for both endgame pve'ers and pvp'ers. The complaint is that this is an underhanded scheme to sell more copies and place the game behind another pay wall/barrier.
    Fortes Fortuna Iuvat

    18 year MMO veteran 
    Retired PvP Raid Leader 
    Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 1,363

    SlyLoK said:

    I like the change. Players shouldn't be able spam abilities near infinitely.



    This right here!

    image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,465

    Alomar said:

    Resource management changes aren't the main issue the majority of the community disagrees with. This has always been a long believed issue that hindered balancing and made the game's combat too easy. The recent no cp pvp event really enlightened the remaining few who didn't believe this, and convinced the developers it was time for a change (players thought this 2 years ago).



    The "controversy" is about the continued class nerfs that this is just another example of, meanwhile the new class (warden) remains in a very strong advantage over all others. While ZOS's poor balancing attempts will likely ultimately nerf the warden, it will be delayed by months if not more. Making the Morrowind expansion not an optional but mandatory purchase for both endgame pve'ers and pvp'ers. The complaint is that this is an underhanded scheme to sell more copies and place the game behind another pay wall/barrier.


    That a new class in an MMO expansion is OP'd for some time is not exactly news - it's routine. I actually said as much about the Warden when it was first announced.

    How OP'd we won't know for a while yet but if they become the preferred end game healer and end game tank and end game stamina DPS and end game magicka DPS then we'll know what they're doing won't we?
    Obligatory new signature for the new forums so the reaction icons don't hide behind the "quote" button.
    And a second line just in case I need it.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 12,997

    Torval said:

    Every time a game locks more quality of life feature behind a subscription they devalue the box fee you pay until it just becomes an additional tax. I really think they'd love to go back to the sub, like TOR and a couple others.


    @Gdemami - I have to quote myself to respond to you, you ninja chuckle tagger.

    There is a balance to how any game or service is monetized. The problem exists that an acceptable revenue stream is never enough. Revenue equilibrium - stable customer base, solid revenue stream, profitable - is unacceptable in the business world. The only acceptable thing is growth and profit increase.

    This is at odds with a static entertainment service. There is a point at which the service can no longer pragmatically add value. Yet with MMOs there is a constant hunger to increase ARPU (ave revenue / user) and accounts. Once account saturation occurs the only alternative is to increase ARPU. At some point every online service hits saturation and, unless it radically changes (TSW), it must get more money from each account.

    ESO has probably reached growth saturation. It's a curve so it's not stopped, but it's at the curve point where growth is minimal. So what do they do to increase average revenue? Add more to the cash shop. Increase subscription perks. Add more DLC. None of those are bad in themselves, but there is a balance that when any one revenue stream is at a greater advantage the others are devalued. They devalued the subscription too far by a very open and excellent B2P model. With the assumption their growth curve has saturated it only makes sense to value the subscription again.

    In all it's a genius move. Start out selling as "box fee" + "mandatory sub" + "RMT digital deluxe extras packages". Then drop the sub when numbers drop and sell dlc packs. Slowly start valuing the sub, just like SWTOR did, and bang, you're back in the same monetization strategy as FF14 and WoW only with stronger micro-trans, a core sub base, and more dlc pack fees than the previous two put together.

    That is why I say the new inventory system, which was cleverly designed to work monetarily for ZOS with both subs and non-sub customers, devalues a straight box B2P purchase. Because now you need to also subscribe to get the added storage.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • DaelonDulucDaelonDuluc Member UncommonPosts: 4
    I gave up on ESO long ago after 1) It became a chore rather than a joy to play because EVERYTHING had to be managed and maximized. It just wasn't fun and 2) They completely screwed all their long-term subscribers that have put 100s of dollars in their game as well as paid a monthly subscription by, basically, saying: "Guess what! You mean nothing. Go buy an entirely new game that's the same thing, but we know we can soak you for more money" rather than sticking to their standard practices of the last few years.

    I still have the game, but I haven't booted it up in months and cancelled my subscription.

    Good riddance.

    They've soiled the good name of TES. Call it what it is Zeni. A cash grab that is loosely (and I do mean loosely) related to a series of actually good games that was made by one of our owners other companies that we saw a chance to make oodles of money off of the gullible.

    Sheesh
  • khameleonkhameleon Member UncommonPosts: 457


    I gave up on ESO long ago after 1) It became a chore rather than a joy to play because EVERYTHING had to be managed and maximized. It just wasn't fun and 2) They completely screwed all their long-term subscribers that have put 100s of dollars in their game as well as paid a monthly subscription by, basically, saying: "Guess what! You mean nothing. Go buy an entirely new game that's the same thing, but we know we can soak you for more money" rather than sticking to their standard practices of the last few years.



    I still have the game, but I haven't booted it up in months and cancelled my subscription.



    Good riddance.



    They've soiled the good name of TES. Call it what it is Zeni. A cash grab that is loosely (and I do mean loosely) related to a series of actually good games that was made by one of our owners other companies that we saw a chance to make oodles of money off of the gullible.



    Sheesh


    Your loss, its one of the best MMORPGs out there no matter what flaws you point out.

    GAME TIL YOU DIE!!!!

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,579
    edited April 20
    Torval said:
    Revenue equilibrium - stable customer base,


    solid revenue stream, profitable - is unacceptable in the business


    world. The only acceptable thing is growth and profit increase.

    Of course it is unacceptable.

    Where do you think the money to fund games(or any business in fact) comes from? From entities that make 'solid profits' or entities that show substantial profit growth?

    Growth is essential.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • DaelonDulucDaelonDuluc Member UncommonPosts: 4

    khameleon said:





    I gave up on ESO long ago after 1) It became a chore rather than a joy to play because EVERYTHING had to be managed and maximized. It just wasn't fun and 2) They completely screwed all their long-term subscribers that have put 100s of dollars in their game as well as paid a monthly subscription by, basically, saying: "Guess what! You mean nothing. Go buy an entirely new game that's the same thing, but we know we can soak you for more money" rather than sticking to their standard practices of the last few years.





    I still have the game, but I haven't booted it up in months and cancelled my subscription.





    Good riddance.





    They've soiled the good name of TES. Call it what it is Zeni. A cash grab that is loosely (and I do mean loosely) related to a series of actually good games that was made by one of our owners other companies that we saw a chance to make oodles of money off of the gullible.





    Sheesh




    Your loss, its one of the best MMORPGs out there no matter what flaws you point out.



    Since I'm the non-competitive type, I refused to fit in to the narrow little molds that so many wanted me to and couldn't have cared less about all the "achievements". I'll stick with playing games I actually enjoy and having people enjoy my videos, commentary and shots.

    I'm glad you enjoy it though.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 12,997

    Gdemami said:

    Torval said:
    Revenue equilibrium - stable customer base,



    solid revenue stream, profitable - is unacceptable in the business



    world. The only acceptable thing is growth and profit increase.


    Of course it is unacceptable.

    Where do you think the money to fund games(or any business in fact) comes from? From entities that make 'solid profits' or entities that show substantial profit growth?

    Growth is essential.

    If you're saying new games are avenues for growth then I would agree. But I'm talking about growth within a single game. At some point every game caps out. There is no growth within that game. That is what I'm talking about in terms of growth limits, not the ability overall for a company to keep growing.

    So in order to keep growing profits in a single game, that is nearing growth saturation, the publisher must squeeze more revenue out of each account. They can add new content which is additional revenue, but they also need to maximize each stream - recurring fees (subs), dlc fees (xpacs and dlc), and microtransactions and digital bundles.

    So my point is that by adding more features to the subscription they increase its value relative to the other streams. To me that signals that growing subscriptions among existing players is important and not at target levels. It also means that relative to the subscription the box fee loses some value because what was inherently tied to the box fee can now only be extended through another separate revenue stream.

    Before the box fees let you play and you could speed up unlocks through the cash shop. The sub essentially let you play like a sub always does with a cash shop stipend as a perk. It was simple and straightforward.

    Then they added the unlimited crafting bags to the sub, exclusive items to the cash shop, loot boxes, and finally separate dollars only DLC. Now your sub doesn't just unlock the game. The alternative of simply buying all the DLC doesn't unlock all the game either. Now you must do both with the additional hitch that once a year a dollars only DLC purchase is in the mix so your sub and normal DLC purchases don't cover it all either.

    They're squeezing a bit. And the value of what your dlc purchase buys is a little smaller in light of the fact you need to sub to get the full version of the game and all its features. An optional sub is fine. Going back to the mandatory triple dip is not.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 12,997

    Iselin said:



    Alomar said:


    Resource management changes aren't the main issue the majority of the community disagrees with. This has always been a long believed issue that hindered balancing and made the game's combat too easy. The recent no cp pvp event really enlightened the remaining few who didn't believe this, and convinced the developers it was time for a change (players thought this 2 years ago).





    The "controversy" is about the continued class nerfs that this is just another example of, meanwhile the new class (warden) remains in a very strong advantage over all others. While ZOS's poor balancing attempts will likely ultimately nerf the warden, it will be delayed by months if not more. Making the Morrowind expansion not an optional but mandatory purchase for both endgame pve'ers and pvp'ers. The complaint is that this is an underhanded scheme to sell more copies and place the game behind another pay wall/barrier.




    That a new class in an MMO expansion is OP'd for some time is not exactly news - it's routine. I actually said as much about the Warden when it was first announced.

    How OP'd we won't know for a while yet but if they become the preferred end game healer and end game tank and end game stamina DPS and end game magicka DPS then we'll know what they're doing won't we?


    And any time a class is locked behind an expansion or cash shop purchase it will always get hit the lightest with the nerf bat.
    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 4,644

    Gdemami said:

    Torval said:
    Revenue equilibrium - stable customer base,



    solid revenue stream, profitable - is unacceptable in the business



    world. The only acceptable thing is growth and profit increase.


    Of course it is unacceptable.

    Where do you think the money to fund games(or any business in fact) comes from? From entities that make 'solid profits' or entities that show substantial profit growth?

    Growth is essential.


    Unsustainable

    That is the bad word that nobody likes to talk about.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • DijonCyanideDijonCyanide EarthMember UncommonPosts: 376
    Re-balancing in any online community driven game will always be needed with some being hindered & some receiving a boon.

    My potential problem with MMO companies is:  are they re-balancing for the well-fare of the game, & thus the players, or are they shifting game mechanics around to subtlety coerce spending by the player-base.  This can be accomplished by many maneuvers.

    For ESO, currently, the question would be are they neutering the other established classes to gently coerce the purchasing of the cool shiny Warden.  This practice certainly isn't new to MMOs nor will it go away.

    I have only been playing ESO for less than a month & the game mechanic that shocked me the most so far was a lack of universal market system.  Then I learned there is one that was implemented via Guilds in ESO.  I would recommend ESO, but I wouldn't recommend spending any real-money in it yet.  Partially because of my ignorance of all that is ESO & it seems to be  vast game.  Also, the real-money store items seem expensive as all get out.  Then there is the in-game economy too.  Buy the cheap version or maybe the Gold Edition then as long as you don't have to have the best or be the best enjoy the game which is good so far. 
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