Constant action or Lazy open world ?

delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,176
edited April 16 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Better described as in-your-face or slow-and-relaxed.


To understand slow and relaxed I have to sink back to nostalgia because mmo's are not made this way any more.  My theory is slow and relaxed are costly to make.  A massive world is needed for this style.  Believe it or not if you look back at Vanilla World of Warcraft, this game was huge for land mass.  Without measuring acreage with a yardstick I could say it was twice as big as any mmo even with their expansion's.  Everquest 2 and FF 14 were comparable too.  MMO's like this, if you were minding your own business and doing solo stuff and if someone was watching over your shoulder as you played they would say not-much-to see-here !....But in reality their was a lot !....You were building a life. You were tweaking your character ever so slowly.


This topic came to me from another post where people were arguing over pros and cons of tab targeting.  Sure tab targeting is slower, but with advantages and satisfaction of getting your next ability.  The next ability is extremely intriguing to me, and tons of them are more so as you slowly grind your way up the ladder.  With 50 abilities and some not that important, I can choose what to use on my action bar to enhance my individuality even more so than the talent tree itself........With this I can go off into that vast world alone and do some testing and sharpening my skill.  Now, it may seem like I'm a solo player when I'm sharpening my play style, but what I'm really doing is setting up my skill for playing with others.  That satisfaction of being unique and contributing my part, the best I can, and knowing my character.


I'm a very active person, I'm sure many of you are too.  If were not playing on the computer were doing something. 

But think about fun !...... Fun has many faces !...... It can be something like going to the movies. What are you doing ?  Your sitting their doing nothing, yet if someone asked " did you have fun? ".....You can say YES !



In-your-face

This came prevalent to me with Final Fantasy 14.  Now this is in-your face.  Try leaving a city or town and get from point A to B.  You'll be fighting hundred's of trash mobs at an obnoxious rate along with the most frantic music known to man !..... Is frantic really that much fun with every hour of play ?...... Is it really fun to be zoning in and out every 100 yards ?..... Do you really enjoy that Chuck-a-boo riding mount Asian cowboy music ?


All other cheep short AAA modern mmos are in-your-face too. Try playing Wildstar ! ....... I guess developers feel obnoxious = fun and we all want a part of the action. 
Post edited by delete5230 on

Comments

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebMember RarePosts: 5,651
    Slow and relaxed, but peppered with in your face zones.

    I think you hit the nail on the head for what is wrong with modern MMOs ( its something that bothered me but I could not put my finger on it )

    In many new MMOs the monsters are placed every few steps and are re spawning constantly. GW2 , ESO, Tera ... Neverwinter, Wildstar ... you name it.

    You can not type a word in chat without some monster suddenly aggroing you.

    You can barely travel without being constantly attacked even on roads.


    Old MMOs LOTRO, WOW - You would travel the zones, and if you generally stick to roads it was rare to come upon monster camp.

    You could have chat, sort inventory...relax. And when you want you go deeper to have fights.

    Not anymore.

    The tediousness of this makes one tire very fast with such MMO. This is one of the reasons why i hate Wildstar.



    Other thing is that zones are so small - they have no option but to pack them like this.

    I just realised it now when I booted LOTRO again. The world is so huge that a simple grass plain between two congregations of quests is bigger than any one zone in ESO.

    Its like breathing fresh air



  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,176
    There all hack and slash.  Seems as if they all forgot about the core of all video games FIGHTING !
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 15,966
    edited April 17




    Better described as in-your-face or slow-and-relaxed.


    To understand slow and relaxed I have to sink back to nostalgia because mmo's are not made this way any more. .....






    I had to stop right there.



    Games like Life is Feudal, Space Engineers, medieval Engineers, Wurm and Rising World not only were NOT made 'back in the day' there are overwhelming more of them now then 'back in the day' (granted not MMOs but still holy fuck!)



    (also as a side note, although not action back and indeed slower I would agree, they are not lazy.)
    Post edited by SEANMCAD on

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,176
    I have a lot of good memories of mmo's, and it's not nostalgia !


    It's the slow-and-relaxed that does it !

    It comes when I say " I have an idea, let me try it out ".  This type of situation doesn't come if the entire game is PRE SCRIPTED.  Where developers feel full action all the time is the key to everyone's fun. 


    Here's one:


    I was out question one early morning, all by myself.  Nothing great going on because it was 5 am.


    I was playing my first character ever and I was around level 35 when I came across a Warrior sitting on a rock, I was playing my Rogue.  Every now and then he would get up and fight something, then bandage himself with First Aid..... This was going on for several minuets, as I continued doing my stuff.  It was just him and me in this zone.... Then I got a message " what's up ", I responded " nothing much ", so then we started to chat.  Next thing you know we became friends.  We slowly began playing and killing stuff and he was giving me pointers on how to work with a tank, just small little details but good stuff.

    We played together for several hours and this encounter stuck in my head as memorable. 

    This non pre scripted event happened ALL THE TIME !


    Developers have to stay out of the way !
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,945





    Developers have to stay out of the way !



    Ehm - if developers stay out of the way... who will make the games? 



  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member UncommonPosts: 945

    SEANMCAD said:







    Better described as in-your-face or slow-and-relaxed.


    To understand slow and relaxed I have to sink back to nostalgia because mmo's are not made this way any more. .....









    I had to stop right there.





    Games like Life is Feudal, Space Engineers, medieval Engineers, Wurm and Rising World not only were NOT made 'back in the day' there are overwhelming more of them now then 'back in the day' (granted not MMOs but still holy fuck!)





    (also as a side note, although not action back and indeed slower I would agree, they are not lazy.)


    So you call him wrong on his statement on mmos by providing a list of games you freely admit are not mmos as counter evidence? 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXMember EpicPosts: 15,966
    edited April 18


    OG_Zorvan said:





    SEANMCAD said:













    Better described as in-your-face or slow-and-relaxed.


    To understand slow and relaxed I have to sink back to nostalgia because mmo's are not made this way any more. .....















    I had to stop right there.









    Games like Life is Feudal, Space Engineers, medieval Engineers, Wurm and Rising World not only were NOT made 'back in the day' there are overwhelming more of them now then 'back in the day' (granted not MMOs but still holy fuck!)









    (also as a side note, although not action back and indeed slower I would agree, they are not lazy.)






    So you call him wrong on his statement on mmos by providing a list of games you freely admit are not mmos as counter evidence? 




    yup.

    I wonder if you can figure out why I did that

    hint.....
    because there arent any. other than Wurm
    Post edited by SEANMCAD on

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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTMember RarePosts: 4,094
    I don't mind having a lot of action if it's well done.  One of my issues even with current single player open world games is that they are designed as a poor version of a linear experience.  Instead of things flowing naturally you end up having to go around and click on NPCs with exclamation and follow markers around the maps.  It ends up feeling very much like doing work instead of an adventure.  In a true linear experience, you just follow through from one point to the next and everything flows nicely.  You almost never have guides and the story flows a lot better.  An open world is meant for exploration IMO.

    One thing that really bothers me about current games, in general, is they try to pack 40+ hours of content into a game instead of concentrating on making a smaller game with a better story.  Often there are quite boring side quests or tasks to complete that are similar to doing chores in real life.  I'd prefer if they made shorter games, but with better content.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 23,041




    I just realised it now when I booted LOTRO again. The world is so huge that a simple grass plain between two congregations of quests is bigger than any one zone in ESO.

    Its like breathing fresh air


    Well "sort of".

    Lord of the Rings online is one of the worst when it comes to polluting open areas. I remember going north of Rivendell, to that snowy plain, and meeting mobs every 10 - 20 feet.

    While there are areas that at least allow a little space it probably speaks to how horrible the new mmo's are as I've used Lord of the Rings online as an example of how one can't travel across an area without getting into a fight.





  • redneckgamerredneckgamer Member UncommonPosts: 52

    Sovrath said:







    I just realised it now when I booted LOTRO again. The world is so huge that a simple grass plain between two congregations of quests is bigger than any one zone in ESO.

    Its like breathing fresh air




    Well "sort of".

    Lord of the Rings online is one of the worst when it comes to polluting open areas. I remember going north of Rivendell, to that snowy plain, and meeting mobs every 10 - 20 feet.

    While there are areas that at least allow a little space it probably speaks to how horrible the new mmo's are as I've used Lord of the Rings online as an example of how one can't travel across an area without getting into a fight.




    I kinda have to disagree to a point here about lotro.  Yes, the area north of Rivendell is packed with mobs but I believe that was on purpose to make that initial walk to Rivendell seem dangerous.  And to show the Stark difference between the wilds and the beauty of Rivendell.  But most areas in lotro have fairly safe travel routes if you choose to take them (staying to the roads mostly)  
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,146

    Sovrath said:







    I just realised it now when I booted LOTRO again. The world is so huge that a simple grass plain between two congregations of quests is bigger than any one zone in ESO.

    Its like breathing fresh air




    Well "sort of".

    Lord of the Rings online is one of the worst when it comes to polluting open areas. I remember going north of Rivendell, to that snowy plain, and meeting mobs every 10 - 20 feet.

    While there are areas that at least allow a little space it probably speaks to how horrible the new mmo's are as I've used Lord of the Rings online as an example of how one can't travel across an area without getting into a fight.




    Yeah. Selective memory. Angmar in LOTRO is almost the textbook definition of overpacked mobs.

    He probably chose to forget that and remember the Lone Lands instead.

    Same with ESO. Other than the small newbie islands that do feel a bit on the cramped side there are zones like the Alik'r Desert that are much more like the LOTRO Lone Lands.
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  • Jill52Jill52 pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 84
    I think the point here is games have become so 'action packed' that they give players very little downtime to do anything other than grind and fight.

    Yes, a good game needs to have some action to keep players interested. However, overwhelming players with so much 'action' that it becomes commonplace gets boring and frustrating fast. A great game has just the right mix of action and downtime to keep it constantly entertaining and fun. The contrast between the two keeps the action (even with the so-called 'boring' combat systems like tab targeting) feeling exciting each time and gives the players time to chat with other players, organize their inventory, set their skill points, etc.

    So, in that respect, I agree with the OP that it isn't so much how the action is presented but more about how much of it there is.



  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,680

    DMKano said:








    Developers have to stay out of the way !





    Ehm - if developers stay out of the way... who will make the games? 





    Forum Dwellers.  They have +10 expertise on these things.
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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 23,041




    Sovrath said:










    I just realised it now when I booted LOTRO again. The world is so huge that a simple grass plain between two congregations of quests is bigger than any one zone in ESO.

    Its like breathing fresh air






    Well "sort of".

    Lord of the Rings online is one of the worst when it comes to polluting open areas. I remember going north of Rivendell, to that snowy plain, and meeting mobs every 10 - 20 feet.

    While there are areas that at least allow a little space it probably speaks to how horrible the new mmo's are as I've used Lord of the Rings online as an example of how one can't travel across an area without getting into a fight.






    I kinda have to disagree to a point here about lotro.  Yes, the area north of Rivendell is packed with mobs but I believe that was on purpose to make that initial walk to Rivendell seem dangerous.  And to show the Stark difference between the wilds and the beauty of Rivendell.  But most areas in lotro have fairly safe travel routes if you choose to take them (staying to the roads mostly)  

    This is the area north of Rivendell. So not on the way to Rivendell.

    Now, keep in mind, I'm ok with dangers along the road. As a matter of fact, there used to be a troll on the road to Rivendell (which they removed insert angry face). I had to sneak around him.

    But there are areas, especially later in the game world, that seem to have mobs every which way you look. And like I said, that area north of Rivendell was such a pain in the necck I eventually had to try to ignore them.





  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,729
    Can we just get past having to choose mutually exclusive binary options in our games? Or not?

    Wait, dammit.
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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,904
    As I see it things should be mixed. Sometimes everything is slow and cool but it should turn to fast and deadly at times, and not just in specific zones either. Being too relaxing is not good, just as being in a constant fight gets annoying.

    MMOs today tend to get annoying with constantly throwing tons of trashmobs in my face, while a swarm at times can be fun it is usually a single or a few tough mobs that are the fun ones to beat. I get the feeling that someone thought "the more mobs at the same time the more fun" but wading through useless crap gets old fast. And, yeah, I am looking on you, TERA.

    Combat is and have always been important in MMOs but other things like exploration finding rare collectables/mats and so on is important as well. Too much combat will negatively impact on how long I actually play a game, too little and it feels like a hiking game. 

    Today I feel that you fight far more fights but the fights you got into in older games did take far longer and generally were much harder. I don't think this is an improvement, things were more exciting before when you actually could die if you screwed up and you thought carefully before pulling the mobs. Now you just jump into everything  without a thought (still talking open world here, in a raid that would still mean wiping fast).
  • karter64karter64 Oregon City, ORMember UncommonPosts: 96

    I'm going to reminisce a bit about Asheron's Call. Good mix of slow and easy when you want, and non stop action when you want. I could run around for hours fight the mobs I wanted to, or had enough room to avoid others, but if I wanted non stop action I could hit up the Citadel, or any number of dungeons with constant spawns. Or I could hang out in town and barter stuff (pre-shop bot days).

    But as Loke666 says it is often more about  one or two good fights instead of a bunch of trash. Especially playing a mage in AC with all the potential drain spells, a lot of strategy could come into play. Sometimes you would keep one mob alive just so you could drain its stamina and convert it to mana to fight other mobs. That was fun, but I digress.

    I like the ability to have a choice, ut prefer a more controlled environment.

  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,952
    I measure excitement in terms of the proximity of my character to death. The combat doesn't have to be fast. There just needs to be some real risk that I am trying to avoid or overcome, at whatever speed the game is played. 

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,176

    Loke666 said:

    As I see it things should be mixed. Sometimes everything is slow and cool but it should turn to fast and deadly at times, and not just in specific zones either. Being too relaxing is not good, just as being in a constant fight gets annoying.

    MMOs today tend to get annoying with constantly throwing tons of trashmobs in my face, while a swarm at times can be fun it is usually a single or a few tough mobs that are the fun ones to beat. I get the feeling that someone thought "the more mobs at the same time the more fun" but wading through useless crap gets old fast. And, yeah, I am looking on you, TERA.

    Combat is and have always been important in MMOs but other things like exploration finding rare collectables/mats and so on is important as well. Too much combat will negatively impact on how long I actually play a game, too little and it feels like a hiking game. 

    Today I feel that you fight far more fights but the fights you got into in older games did take far longer and generally were much harder. I don't think this is an improvement, things were more exciting before when you actually could die if you screwed up and you thought carefully before pulling the mobs. Now you just jump into everything  without a thought (still talking open world here, in a raid that would still mean wiping fast).



    This reminds me of Darkshore in World of Warcraft, remember that mystical place ?


    How can a zone in ANY mmo be mystical if it's cramped and hectic like the crap games we have now ?

    Anyway, you would accept a quest to travel north a few short miles from Auberdine to Cliffspring Falls.  Along the way you would notice the soothing beaches of The Veiled Sea, and to the right you would notice a blue light drawing you to Bashal'Aram if you choose to go off path.  One thing for sure, every fight is optional and relaxing.....Hay you may find a new friend along the way, but it's a sure thing when you make it to your destination on top of the falls, you'll need help !.......Better yet, you know a new found stranger will be their to help you out.

    It's amazing how the population is spread out in a large mmo yet, you can always find help in troublesome spots. 


    Memorable :)
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingMember RarePosts: 4,064
    edited April 19
    Iselin said:
    Yeah. Selective memory. Angmar in LOTRO is almost the textbook definition of overpacked mobs.

    He probably chose to forget that and remember the Lone Lands instead.
    Yep, selective memory indeed - as you seem to forgot Angmar was the "endgame" back then, where the Shadow dwells. Plus that it was a different era, where grouping was still a good thing and not some bad design to stop you from the solo play :wink:

    Angmar (especially the eastern part, and around Carn Dûm) was filled with mobs, because that was the home turf and stronghold of the enemy. Where even for the regular landscape mobs you needed a group. At least towards the end, the larger amount of the western part you could solo, if you were careful enough.

    But till the first expansion and level cap raise arrived with Moria, Angmar was a tough place to be in. And Rift... I remember quite some folks still flinched from the mention of Rift even at level 65 :lol:

    Besides that I agree with Lobotomist, in LotRO you can fare safely on the roads, and you can sneak around most dangers even off-road too. (Sure you can, or else chicken play wouldn't be possible :wink:  and there are a few brave fowls who've reached even Isengard without armed escorts)


    edit: missed the Misty Mountain, that was pretty endgame-ish as well, with Hele and the giant camp, and Goblin-town. But it was fairly safe for travels, I think the issue was more like the bottlenecks in the map, since, well, it's the Misty Mountains :wink:  with tight valleys between the peaks to climb, and less room for avoiding the patrols.
    Post edited by Po_gg on
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,176

    Po_gg said:



    Iselin said:
    Yeah. Selective memory. Angmar in LOTRO is almost the textbook definition of overpacked mobs.

    He probably chose to forget that and remember the Lone Lands instead.




    Yep, selective memory indeed - as you seem to forgot Angmar was the "endgame" back then, where the Shadow dwells. Plus that it was a different era, where grouping was still a good thing and not some bad design to stop you from the solo play :wink:

    Angmar (especially the eastern part, and around Carn Dûm) was filled with mobs, because that was the home turf and stronghold of the enemy. Where even for the regular landscape mobs you needed a group. At least towards the end, the larger amount of the western part you could solo, if you were careful enough.

    But till the first expansion and level cap raise arrived with Moria, Angmar was a tough place to be in. And Rift... I remember quite some folks still flinched from the mention of Rift even at level 65 :lol:

    Besides that I agree with Lobotomist, in LotRO you can fare safely on the roads, and you can sneak around most dangers even off-road too. (Sure you can, or else chicken play wouldn't be possible :wink:  and there are a few brave fowl who've reached even Isengard without armed escorts)



    I know I say bad things about LOTRO, but it's a good mmo that's on target with not being obnoxious like how mmos are to be...... It's like a life :)

    I just wish the game wasn't so easy, that's my only gripe. It's truly is a good mmo.
  • VelifaxVelifax Ogden, UTMember UncommonPosts: 377
    It's a totally valid difference in preference. I tended to prefer twitch action from age 17 to about 25. Now i prefer trade empire management, Civ style, etc.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    edited April 21
    I think the biggest issue with most games today is just about everything agros. This is what made exploration in games like SWG much more relaxing, for one, mobs were much more spread out, two not everything came running at you on sight. The way SWG did it created a more varied ecosystem of life, animals especially had different demeanors making it feel a bit more dynamic. Most games today just seem to slap the same aggressive AI on every mob they create. 
    Post edited by Distopia on

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  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 1,647




    Sovrath said:










    I just realised it now when I booted LOTRO again. The world is so huge that a simple grass plain between two congregations of quests is bigger than any one zone in ESO.

    Its like breathing fresh air






    Well "sort of".

    Lord of the Rings online is one of the worst when it comes to polluting open areas. I remember going north of Rivendell, to that snowy plain, and meeting mobs every 10 - 20 feet.

    While there are areas that at least allow a little space it probably speaks to how horrible the new mmo's are as I've used Lord of the Rings online as an example of how one can't travel across an area without getting into a fight.






    I kinda have to disagree to a point here about lotro.  Yes, the area north of Rivendell is packed with mobs but I believe that was on purpose to make that initial walk to Rivendell seem dangerous.  And to show the Stark difference between the wilds and the beauty of Rivendell.  But most areas in lotro have fairly safe travel routes if you choose to take them (staying to the roads mostly)  



    Rivendell wasn't that difficult.

    When LOTRO first came out, I wanted to see Rivendell so badly I ran it from Bree with a newly formed character. It took awhile and I died a few times but I got there.
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