Five Things MMO Fans Need to Get Over - The List at MMORPG.com

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  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 3,846
    The MMORPG genre was defined by UO, EQ ,DAOC, AO, AC and a few others ..

      All these games that DEFINED the Genre and industry have one thing in common ..
     
     They all supported Thousands of players at the SAME time in the SAME persistent world ..

       Now if these games literrally defined the genre and set the standards for what an MMOPRG is .. Why would anyone think Destiny 1 or 2 is an MMO ... .. its just not .. its multi player coop game and there is nothing wrong with that ..

      But  Destiny 2 will have the same effect on the MMO industry as Destiny 1 did ..

      None , Zero...not a factor just like its predesccessor

      so ....        UO------EQ------DAOC-----AO-----AC-----Destiny

                           one of these things is not like the others ..........Which is it ?


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,742
    edited April 7
    Torval said:
    If you take that to mean the genre is being held back by preconceived notions of what an MMO must be, how MMO and other genres must hybrid, and how it all must be paid; or rather (on the other side of the coin) what MMOs and their hybrids aren't allowed to be then his point makes sense. That is how I interpreted it at least.
    Erm no. The funny part is he how calls on leaving aside bickering and growing up and then proceed with more of the same self-rightneousness about how the "genre" sucks and what it should be about....
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonMember RarePosts: 1,547
    Distopia said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    DMKano said:
    If players really got over this, this site and the forums would be dead.
    You mean we would start talking about games again instead of talking about how we're supposed to talk about games?
    If games were actually interesting to debate people would be doing so.

    These topics are much more fun .

    Heck you're here with me right? B)
    If you're a gamer they're fun to talk about. That's why Gamespace is more fun to read, but the social part isn't really in full swing so it's harder to discuss and interact.

    I'm kind of here. I'd like to think we'll get back to talking about games again. There's still lots of room for arguing about preferences within that. For some reason, mostly a loud vocal minority, keep bringing these points up every time we try and have a discussion here that isn't EQ or DAoC.

    But if we're only going to talk about DAoC and EQ and why every game after them isn't them, then I'm bored with talking only about that. I think many gamers and even mmo gamers are tired of that very simplistic and confining paradigm trying to force its way front and center all the time in some desperate attempt to stay relevant.

    We constantly have these discussions now because anytime we try and discuss anything at all, like how Destiny 2 could be good for MMOs on the PC, it gets derailed by that loud cliquish niche.
    Or they could have just posted how great it was Destiny 2 was going to be released on the PC, why it might be better than Destiny 1 was and predictions of what we might have to look forward to. (leaving out any tie to the MMO debate)

    Most likely would have ended up like most "news" threads here, with like 7 replies and off the front page in 3 days.

    They know what they are doing, tie in to a controversial subject and there's hundreds of replies and thousands of views.

    Heck they even created a child thread telling us to "get over it" full well knowing the controversy and clicks it would generate.

    How much different might this thread have gone without the MMO or F2P items, both sore subjects for many where few will ever yield on.

    The thing to remember is in all my debates with you and others its not personal, I just enjoy verbal fencing and will resort to "tools" such as snarkiness, hyperbole, generalisations, strawmen etc to make my points. (literally, I have a lot of points)

    ;)
    You mean they were speculating to make the article more interesting? Why would they make it as dry and boring as possible? There is only a tie to an MMO debate because this tiny dwindling vestige keeps waving a flag and proclaiming it. There would be no debate had the attention hungry skipped the thread. It's not like they're interested in the game anyway. Like you've astutely pointed out on several occasions, sometimes the loudest complainers are those who haven't and will have no interest in ever playing the game.

    The point of that original article wasn't that the game is some kind of MMO, but that whether you think it is or not, it will have a positive impact on the PC MMO industry. So many people glommed onto that irrelevance, is it an mmo is it not - oh my, that the entire point of what it can bring to the mmo industry on PCs was lost.

    Even more importantly when that was pointed out bitter curmudgeon's circled the wagons and proclaimed nothing about Destiny is good for MMOs. That is why this article was written. Nearly every conversation on this site gets derailed by those comments.
    Why if someone disagrees that Destiny is good for MMOs and even states reasons they and others agree on does it make them worthy of name calling and derision?

    You might as well make an argument fantasy football is good for MMOs. No it isn't, nor is Destiny as neither is a MMO.


    It might help if you at least keep your question in the same realm as the post that spawned it...

    Seems to me he's talking about people derailing the topic to argue over semantics of what is or isn't an MMO. Yet you're asking him about people actually discussing the topic... 
    OK for the sake of argument, let's say I am over the variable definition of MMO.

    So someone, for example, says that game X is good for the 'MMO genre'. Someone starts talking about it being good for multiplayer online games, someone else says it's bad for MMORPGS. Who is on topic and who is not? If they both abbreviate to MMO what are we talking about?

    No the meaning of the term is central to the discussion, and for me the term 'MMO genre' will always very specifically and very narrowly mean:
    Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing Game' and nothing else.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    edited April 7


    It might help if you at least keep your question in the same realm as the post that spawned it...

    Seems to me he's talking about people derailing the topic to argue over semantics of what is or isn't an MMO. Yet you're asking him about people actually discussing the topic... 
    OK for the sake of argument, let's say I am over the variable definition of MMO.

    So someone, for example, says that game X is good for the 'MMO genre'. Someone starts talking about it being good for multiplayer online games, someone else says it's bad for MMORPGS. Who is on topic and who is not? If they both abbreviate to MMO what are we talking about?

    No the meaning of the term is central to the discussion, and for me the term 'MMO genre' will always very specifically and very narrowly mean:
    Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing Game' and nothing else.
    When the topic is essentially saying regardless of said game being an MMO or not, I find that it will be beneficial because: insert. The entire point is to move past the semantics of it being an MMO or not. SO what is or isn't an MMO is no longer pertinent to the topic of discussion.  

    There are a thousand threads here to discuss that very topic, there's no need for that age old discussion to be discussed in a topic asking the reader to look past that, to understand the point that is being made. Discussing the merits of that premise is fine (why it's success won't have an impact, because reasons), going over yet again why I think it's not an MMO is /facepalm worthy. It's not much to ask of a reader to look past that... Yet people have to be difficult just cuz....
    Post edited by Distopia on

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonMember RarePosts: 1,547
    edited April 7
    Distopia said:


    It might help if you at least keep your question in the same realm as the post that spawned it...

    Seems to me he's talking about people derailing the topic to argue over semantics of what is or isn't an MMO. Yet you're asking him about people actually discussing the topic... 
    OK for the sake of argument, let's say I am over the variable definition of MMO.

    So someone, for example, says that game X is good for the 'MMO genre'. Someone starts talking about it being good for multiplayer online games, someone else says it's bad for MMORPGS. Who is on topic and who is not? If they both abbreviate to MMO what are we talking about?

    No the meaning of the term is central to the discussion, and for me the term 'MMO genre' will always very specifically and very narrowly mean:
    Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing Game' and nothing else.
    When the topic is essentially saying regardless of said game being an MMO or not, I find that it will be beneficial because: insert. The entire point is to move past the semantics of it being an MMO or not. SO what is or isn't an MMO is no longer pertinent to the topic of discussion.  

    There are a thousand threads here to discuss that very topic, there's no need for that age old discussion to be discussed in a topic asking the reader to look past that, to understand the point that is being made. Discussing the merits of that premise is fine (why it's success won't have an impact, because reasons), going over yet again why I think it's not an MMO is /facepalm worthy. It's not much to ask of a reader to look past that... Yet people have to be difficult just cuz....
    Yet said game could be good for online games for <reasons>, and yet bad for MMORPGS for <reasons>. Maybe for much the same reasons. Whether it is good or bad may well depend on your sense of whether or not it is part of the 'MMO genre'.

    The meaning of the term matters very much if what you regard as 'good for the MMO genre' is that which supports the growth and innovation of classic MMORPGS and not what supports the growth of other styles of online games.
    Post edited by craftseeker on
  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxMember UncommonPosts: 838
    OP,there is a reason why MMO´s are actually called MMO´s,get over it.

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **

  • corvascorvas ArnhemMember UncommonPosts: 109
    edited April 7
    Scorchien said:
    The MMORPG genre was defined by UO, EQ ,DAOC, AO, AC and a few others ..

      All these games that DEFINED the Genre and industry have one thing in common ..
     
     They all supported Thousands of players at the SAME time in the SAME persistent world ..

       Now if these games literrally defined the genre and set the standards for what an MMOPRG is .. Why would anyone think Destiny 1 or 2 is an MMO ... .. its just not .. its multi player coop game and there is nothing wrong with that ..

      But  Destiny 2 will have the same effect on the MMO industry as Destiny 1 did ..

      None , Zero...not a factor just like its predesccessor

      so ....        UO------EQ------DAOC-----AO-----AC-----Destiny

                           one of these things is not like the others ..........Which is it ?


    I agree completely with you and if they want to put a genre on titles like Destiny then just remove the first M, so make it MORPG.

    ... ohh i have a easy solution for this website ... change your name into www.MORPG.com so you can keep up the reviews on those other MORPGs as well that arent "Massively" .... hell change the name to www.MO.com then you can have reviews on all the online games.

    But when www.mmorpg.com changes its coarse of reviews from only mmorpgs to all games it doesnt mean MMORPG as a genre need to take the same coarse, they didnt invent the genre at all.
    Post edited by corvas on
  • YumeTsukaiYumeTsukai The last hopeMember UncommonPosts: 34
    laserit said:
    Avarix said:
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic Can someone spot the errors? =)
    That Destiny 2 is listed under 'Newest MMOs'? ;)
    @Avarix Nah, it's pointless to "debate" what Destiny is anymore :)

    I said errors, but... I had no idea Zelda and Horizon were MMOs... :O Probably because they're.. massive?

    P.S.: @Kyleran We've been had all along...

    Open your mind

    People aren't calling those games MMO's

    Don't know about Horizons but Zelda has some systems and mechanics that would be absolutley awesome to see implemented in a virtual world MMORPG

    Couple examples:

    The entertaining mob AI: (they actually have a little bit of personality)
    A wolf pack behaves much like a real wolf pack

    The weather system:
    Rain effects game play, fire (including spell type fire), climbing, visibility
    Wind effects game play,
    Temperature effects game play,

    Awesome stealth mechanics that are also effected by weather.

    etc. etc. etc.
    My mind is open, @laserit. Is yours?

    Based on your logic I could go and say that many humans can become geniuses, after all many have latent abilities. But just because *there is that possibility* it doesn't mean that they are already geniuses. There is a difference between *WHAT IS* and *WHAT IT COULD BE*.

    Labeling single player games as something that they're not is misleading the public. I posted this in hopes that the staff would see and correct it, but apparently they're trying to brainwash people into thinking that any game is an MMO. So much for reliable information on this site.
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomeMember UncommonPosts: 3,799
    Totally agree with this column. (Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong and stupid :p )
  • GilcroixGilcroix WIMember UncommonPosts: 214
    When they stop ruining pve gameplay for pvp balance , I will get over it. The other 4 I really don't feel that strongly about.
  • AntiheroDAntiheroD RamstienMember UncommonPosts: 42
    edited April 10
    Sorry not wanting to sound like a ass but if you cant figure out what an MMO is maybe you should not be writing about games in general... whats so hard to figure out about what an MMO is in the first place..
    Post edited by AntiheroD on
  • wgc01wgc01 Fort Worth, TXMember UncommonPosts: 235
    I like all kinds of games, have played mmo's to first person shooters to everything in-between, I prefer sub model games but I feel they are slowly fading away, one thing I wish dev's would be more transparent about things and more honest with the player base how much is that f2p game really going to cost me if I want a good gaming experience ? and I wish companies would clamp down on cheaters and exploiters more than they do, I am playing a game now that I enjoy but cheating and exploiting is rampant.

    As long as there are gamers that list of 5 will always be around and a few more, the online world of gaming is a wide brush and you will never get everyone on the same page, the diversity of online games is one thing that keeps some of us coming back, even if todays games pale in depth and content to older mmo's.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,121
    corvas said:
    Scorchien said:
    The MMORPG genre was defined by UO, EQ ,DAOC, AO, AC and a few others ..

      All these games that DEFINED the Genre and industry have one thing in common ..
     
     They all supported Thousands of players at the SAME time in the SAME persistent world ..

       Now if these games literrally defined the genre and set the standards for what an MMOPRG is .. Why would anyone think Destiny 1 or 2 is an MMO ... .. its just not .. its multi player coop game and there is nothing wrong with that ..

      But  Destiny 2 will have the same effect on the MMO industry as Destiny 1 did ..

      None , Zero...not a factor just like its predesccessor

      so ....        UO------EQ------DAOC-----AO-----AC-----Destiny

                           one of these things is not like the others ..........Which is it ?


    I agree completely with you and if they want to put a genre on titles like Destiny then just remove the first M, so make it MORPG.

    ... ohh i have a easy solution for this website ... change your name into www.MORPG.com so you can keep up the reviews on those other MORPGs as well that arent "Massively" .... hell change the name to www.MO.com then you can have reviews on all the online games.

    But when www.mmorpg.com changes its coarse of reviews from only mmorpgs to all games it doesnt mean MMORPG as a genre need to take the same coarse, they didnt invent the genre at all.
    So what is anyone going to do when the rest of the world doesn't care about pedantic rules and calls them mmos anyway? Nothing. That's why it doesn't matter whether someone calls it someone, or not, or whether people like it called that, or not. It won't change what it is. It won't change studios making games for people that like them, no matter what they're tagged as.
  • PeroxisPeroxis Member CommonPosts: 2
    A common problem is people want things but arent prepared to do what is necessary for the thing to be possible. Eg. So many want to rule the world yet have no responsibility.
    People have to be more proactive in aligning their actions with their goals.
    This does get tied to the brainwashing that gets done which tells people what they should want (hype) or misinformation of how to achieve what people want (grind if you want fun).

    Another problem is the stagnant culture that gets created in guilds that try their hardest to stay the same and so help in making each new MMO boringly similar.

    Pay attention to what you want to, question what you like,  don't wait to have fun that is just a carrot on a stick mentality 
  • ShinamiShinami Sacramento, CAMember UncommonPosts: 754
    My thoughts:

    MMORPG Acronym: Conjured up by the industry as a measure to facilitate the D&D Nerds (including myself) as roleplaying in social culture refers to a form of therapy, while the word for "roleplaying" in the public eye is called "acting" as part of Performance Arts.

    PvP vs PvE: Game Design becomes important if a hybrid game flows in one way or another. Look at how GW1 was changed to have PvP version of PvE skills. Look at what happens when PvP-Based Combat is fought over using PvE Skills and the chaos it creates. Its important to know the kind of orientation a game has PRIOR to investing in it and not after.

    Sandbox vs Themepark: Again! Game Design is extremely different for Sandbox vs Themepark. Know what you are getting into.

    Group vs Solo: Which one is the Ying and which one is the Yang? Either way you choose, one more Solo-Exclusive player means one less Group-Exclusive Player and vice versa. Pick your poison on what form you prefer and watch the majority and minority get seriously disappointed when a middle-ground is chosen and everyone serious leaves your game by next tuesday.

    F2P vs Subscription: The model used to generate revenue goes into the design of the product itself. Either within the product itself, or through direct purchase. This is part of business classes and even Software Engineering programming courses. So yes, its kind of a big deal how model determines how the playerbase generally expects money to be made, and the hurdles it appears.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    I like how this starts with "Get over it!" and to that I say "I would much rather see people get over making convoluted arguments over the grand being portrayed as trivial stuff when such issues make all the difference. Perhaps we should just Blindly jump into the next game that appears, and ignore everything about it, but gladly give the developer our money without question.

    In my opinion, it is what thoughts like this represent.
    For, how else would one perceive such manner if we view these five points satisfied in a logical argument? It translates to "Don't care, Just Play" and that would be great and cool, if and only if such action didn't involve us being monetized during gameplay and not before or afterwards.

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 986
    Torval said:
    corvas said:
    Scorchien said:
    The MMORPG genre was defined by UO, EQ ,DAOC, AO, AC and a few others ..

      All these games that DEFINED the Genre and industry have one thing in common ..
     
     They all supported Thousands of players at the SAME time in the SAME persistent world ..

       Now if these games literrally defined the genre and set the standards for what an MMOPRG is .. Why would anyone think Destiny 1 or 2 is an MMO ... .. its just not .. its multi player coop game and there is nothing wrong with that ..

      But  Destiny 2 will have the same effect on the MMO industry as Destiny 1 did ..

      None , Zero...not a factor just like its predesccessor

      so ....        UO------EQ------DAOC-----AO-----AC-----Destiny

                           one of these things is not like the others ..........Which is it ?


    I agree completely with you and if they want to put a genre on titles like Destiny then just remove the first M, so make it MORPG.

    ... ohh i have a easy solution for this website ... change your name into www.MORPG.com so you can keep up the reviews on those other MORPGs as well that arent "Massively" .... hell change the name to www.MO.com then you can have reviews on all the online games.

    But when www.mmorpg.com changes its coarse of reviews from only mmorpgs to all games it doesnt mean MMORPG as a genre need to take the same coarse, they didnt invent the genre at all.
    So what is anyone going to do when the rest of the world doesn't care about pedantic rules and calls them mmos anyway? Nothing. That's why it doesn't matter whether someone calls it someone, or not, or whether people like it called that, or not. It won't change what it is. It won't change studios making games for people that like them, no matter what they're tagged as.
    You can sell me grapejuice instead of wine. I enjoy grapejuice but doesn't change the fact that I am having a different experience. Also doesn't change the fact that I have been deceived. No one said you can't find fun in denial. 

    Not tagging games correctly is a step backwards. And it is unrelated to the amount of fun you're having. So why not stop there? Let's call all games RPG as well. You are taking over a roll right? Call anything on a computer a virtual world. Let's even call singleplayer games that force you to stay online mmorpgs as well, afterall millions are connected to a server, eh?

    Correct definions--or tags--help us understand and review things better. Of course many people don't care the music they are listening to is Baroque or speed thrash. But just want to enjoy and have fun. But they can't do that and critic at the same time.

    My comment isn't about Destiny or @BillMurphy point which I understand. It's about your last comment only :)
    I am a piece of carbon with a soul, wondering where I got it from. 
    - Drunken Mozart in the Desert
  • kagorsakagorsa herefordMember UncommonPosts: 9
    Well Bill, it seems we think alike sometimes. You don't by any chance have a fear of drunk penguins aswell do you ? :).
  • kagorsakagorsa herefordMember UncommonPosts: 9
    Only last week in ESO someone said something in chat as though it was written in stone and curse anyone who disagrees, and yes it was me who dared to disagree, there wasn't just a few shots fired in my direction, there was an all out nuclear strike, but they gave up in the end when I let them know I won't be forced to think like them.
  • wilcoxonwilcoxon Edina, MNMember UncommonPosts: 84
    I agree with the list except PvP vs PvE. There are rooms for both types of games but games that try to do both generally suffer from it. I think we'd generally be much better off if games would just come out and say if they focus on PvP or PvE and explicitly state that the other experience may be lacking in their games. Personally I have 0 interest in PvP so I would like to play MMOs that cater to PvE and, if they have PvP, do not mess around with the PvE game to accommodate PvP (eg PvP isn't balanced? that's fine - nothing is going to be changed if it will have ANY impact on PvE).

    The one thing I would add is we need to get over World of Warcraft. Most MMOs I've tried still clearly follow the WoW "recipe". What we really need are new MMOs that actually innovate.

    Active: CoH/CoV, Warhammer (beta,live)
    Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), Dark Age of Camelot, D&D Online (alpha,beta,&live), Dungeon Runners, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings (beta), Vanguard (beta), World of Warcraft
    Looking forward to: Fallen Earth

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYMember UncommonPosts: 1,809
    I agree with everything except for the f2p/buy/sub point.

    I keep thinking about how fking amazing Atlantica could be if it were a non f2p game. Super happy CU and Pantheon will have subs and there are EQ servers you can only play with a sub.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,121
    Torval said:
    corvas said:
    Scorchien said:
    The MMORPG genre was defined by UO, EQ ,DAOC, AO, AC and a few others ..

      All these games that DEFINED the Genre and industry have one thing in common ..
     
     They all supported Thousands of players at the SAME time in the SAME persistent world ..

       Now if these games literrally defined the genre and set the standards for what an MMOPRG is .. Why would anyone think Destiny 1 or 2 is an MMO ... .. its just not .. its multi player coop game and there is nothing wrong with that ..

      But  Destiny 2 will have the same effect on the MMO industry as Destiny 1 did ..

      None , Zero...not a factor just like its predesccessor

      so ....        UO------EQ------DAOC-----AO-----AC-----Destiny

                           one of these things is not like the others ..........Which is it ?


    I agree completely with you and if they want to put a genre on titles like Destiny then just remove the first M, so make it MORPG.

    ... ohh i have a easy solution for this website ... change your name into www.MORPG.com so you can keep up the reviews on those other MORPGs as well that arent "Massively" .... hell change the name to www.MO.com then you can have reviews on all the online games.

    But when www.mmorpg.com changes its coarse of reviews from only mmorpgs to all games it doesnt mean MMORPG as a genre need to take the same coarse, they didnt invent the genre at all.
    So what is anyone going to do when the rest of the world doesn't care about pedantic rules and calls them mmos anyway? Nothing. That's why it doesn't matter whether someone calls it someone, or not, or whether people like it called that, or not. It won't change what it is. It won't change studios making games for people that like them, no matter what they're tagged as.
    You can sell me grapejuice instead of wine. I enjoy grapejuice but doesn't change the fact that I am having a different experience. Also doesn't change the fact that I have been deceived. No one said you can't find fun in denial. 

    Not tagging games correctly is a step backwards. And it is unrelated to the amount of fun you're having. So why not stop there? Let's call all games RPG as well. You are taking over a roll right? Call anything on a computer a virtual world. Let's even call singleplayer games that force you to stay online mmorpgs as well, afterall millions are connected to a server, eh?

    Correct definions--or tags--help us understand and review things better. Of course many people don't care the music they are listening to is Baroque or speed thrash. But just want to enjoy and have fun. But they can't do that and critic at the same time.

    My comment isn't about Destiny or @BillMurphy point which I understand. It's about your last comment only :)
    Wine is a subset of grapejuice (or any fermented fruit juice for that matter). It is a fermented beverage made by a fairly specific subset of yeasts. At least one intelligent primate has referred to it as grape juice plus. Wine was not a term coined off handedly to describe an abstract concept. Comparing the word to a coined phrase is disingenuous.

    Grape juice implies that the fruit juice isn't fermented. If you asked for grape juice in a restaurant the server would likely bring you unfermented juice. But if you were in a restaurant that served wine and not grape juice and asked for the grape juice list, unless the server was dense, they would bring you the wine list. It might be dorky and coy, but it wouldn't be incorrect. The point is, context matters, even for clearly defined terms, but even more so for coined slang phrases.

    Mead and wine are often confused because mead is fermented honey and wine is fermented fruit. They can taste similar or the same, but they're not the same because they both have clearly defined non-abstract objective empirically measurable differences. Calling a mead a wine, or vice versa, would be incorrect even though they're both fermented by the same group types of yeast, possibly even the same type.

    What happens when you mix the honey and the fruit before you ferment? What is it? Is it a wine, a mead, a hybrid? That's what's happening in the gaming industry with multiplayer and massively multiplayer online games.

    When MMOs get a clear, objective, widely accepted, consistent definition then the point will stand, but it's  not a real word. Real words help us communicate clearly. Coined phrases, idioms, and colloquialisms can help communicate but not like real words.
  • YashaXYashaX Baldurs GateMember RarePosts: 1,920
    edited April 11
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    corvas said:
    Scorchien said:
    The MMORPG genre was defined by UO, EQ ,DAOC, AO, AC and a few others ..

      All these games that DEFINED the Genre and industry have one thing in common ..
     
     They all supported Thousands of players at the SAME time in the SAME persistent world ..

       Now if these games literrally defined the genre and set the standards for what an MMOPRG is .. Why would anyone think Destiny 1 or 2 is an MMO ... .. its just not .. its multi player coop game and there is nothing wrong with that ..

      But  Destiny 2 will have the same effect on the MMO industry as Destiny 1 did ..

      None , Zero...not a factor just like its predesccessor

      so ....        UO------EQ------DAOC-----AO-----AC-----Destiny

                           one of these things is not like the others ..........Which is it ?


    I agree completely with you and if they want to put a genre on titles like Destiny then just remove the first M, so make it MORPG.

    ... ohh i have a easy solution for this website ... change your name into www.MORPG.com so you can keep up the reviews on those other MORPGs as well that arent "Massively" .... hell change the name to www.MO.com then you can have reviews on all the online games.

    But when www.mmorpg.com changes its coarse of reviews from only mmorpgs to all games it doesnt mean MMORPG as a genre need to take the same coarse, they didnt invent the genre at all.
    So what is anyone going to do when the rest of the world doesn't care about pedantic rules and calls them mmos anyway? Nothing. That's why it doesn't matter whether someone calls it someone, or not, or whether people like it called that, or not. It won't change what it is. It won't change studios making games for people that like them, no matter what they're tagged as.
    You can sell me grapejuice instead of wine. I enjoy grapejuice but doesn't change the fact that I am having a different experience. Also doesn't change the fact that I have been deceived. No one said you can't find fun in denial. 

    Not tagging games correctly is a step backwards. And it is unrelated to the amount of fun you're having. So why not stop there? Let's call all games RPG as well. You are taking over a roll right? Call anything on a computer a virtual world. Let's even call singleplayer games that force you to stay online mmorpgs as well, afterall millions are connected to a server, eh?

    Correct definions--or tags--help us understand and review things better. Of course many people don't care the music they are listening to is Baroque or speed thrash. But just want to enjoy and have fun. But they can't do that and critic at the same time.

    My comment isn't about Destiny or @BillMurphy point which I understand. It's about your last comment only :)


    Grape juice implies that the fruit juice isn't fermented. If you asked for grape juice in a restaurant the server would likely bring you unfermented juice. But if you were in a restaurant that served wine and not grape juice and asked for the grape juice list, unless the server was dense, they would bring you the wine list. 


    Lol * 1 million. Possibly the craziest thing I have read on these forums. The mental gymnastics you are going through to try and justify your point is mind blowing. Thanks for the laugh.
    Post edited by YashaX on
    ....
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 986
    Torval said:
    Wine is a subset of grapejuice (or any fermented fruit juice for that matter). It is a fermented beverage made by a fairly specific subset of yeasts. At least one intelligent primate has referred to it as grape juice plus. Wine was not a term coined off handedly to describe an abstract concept. Comparing the word to a coined phrase is disingenuous.

    Grape juice implies that the fruit juice isn't fermented. If you asked for grape juice in a restaurant the server would likely bring you unfermented juice. But if you were in a restaurant that served wine and not grape juice and asked for the grape juice list, unless the server was dense, they would bring you the wine list. It might be dorky and coy, but it wouldn't be incorrect. The point is, context matters, even for clearly defined terms, but even more so for coined slang phrases.

    Mead and wine are often confused because mead is fermented honey and wine is fermented fruit. They can taste similar or the same, but they're not the same because they both have clearly defined non-abstract objective empirically measurable differences. Calling a mead a wine, or vice versa, would be incorrect even though they're both fermented by the same group types of yeast, possibly even the same type.

    What happens when you mix the honey and the fruit before you ferment? What is it? Is it a wine, a mead, a hybrid? That's what's happening in the gaming industry with multiplayer and massively multiplayer online games.

    When MMOs get a clear, objective, widely accepted, consistent definition then the point will stand, but it's  not a real word. Real words help us communicate clearly. Coined phrases, idioms, and colloquialisms can help communicate but not like real words.
    Alright mate, I have had clearly made my point, and you understood what I meant. But yes, you are right. The wine example wasn't accurate. Let's work on that. Prepare for a wall of text then! :)

    1. Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game is not slang. Slang is used very rare, is informal, and it is more common in speech than writing. This term was phrased by professionals, not common people. It has been used in writing by professionals for decades now. You could never call it slang before, you can't call it slang now. 

    2. A similar example to Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game—yes I am using it in full because apparently when I use the acronym you say it is not a real word ;) —is High-Rise Building. I am an architect; I have had projects in +30 countries. In different parts of the world, professionals and people have different definition for this term. Let's categorize them: 

    a. Definition set by Fire Safety departments: These definitions are not known by the common people, since they have to deal with them. How they announce a building High-Rise in their city depends on the length of their ladders and other safety procedures. In our argument, we don't care about this part. Because it is the equivalent of saying what measurements we should see to put out a fire off a server that can host X amount of people. We really don't care here. 

    b. Definition set by academic or data mining institutes and companies: Some of these definitions are local, the more credible ones are internationally accepted by professionals. These standards vary from +7-story to +12-story buildings or +35m to +15m. Of course higher numbers belong to Developed Countries. But when are referring to this definition in for example an international conference or an international web-site, you have go to the internationally accepted institutes. 

    c. Definition accepted widely by professionals around the globe which is again +7-storey buildings. 

    d. Definition accepted by common people: No institute has done this globally. So I talk from experience. Common people have higher standards when comes to this. Even when I had a project in a small town in a Developing Country. Usually it is a building that is very tall, and their frame of reference is usually New York.

    Boring me with wine definition, eh? I can be much more boring mate! ;)

    If you study these numbers in history you learn as the technology advanced, these numbers increased. In no point in history they went back down. There might have been cases (I haven't ever read about a case though, but I can understand the logic if this ever happens) for safety to lower the bar what is considered High-Rise, but not by professionals. 

    No matter how many 2-storey building you build next to each other, the result still wouldn't make a High-Rise. 

    You can't build a 2-storey building and say it has risen and it is higher than the flat ground and it is pretty and I am having fun just looking at it so it is a High-Rise. 

    If someone makes a 2-storey building in New York and call it a High-Rise is plainly a joke. If not, as is using that term is a marketing technic is a cheat and a thief. 

    3. You wrote and I quote "When MMOs get a clear, objective, widely accepted, consistent definition then the point will stand,"--What you are working against that. You are working against having a definition. You are pro of not having definitions. And how do you think these definitions become consistent and widely accepted? Are you waiting for a Bill to pass through the Parliament? These definitions can become consistent and widely acceptable by the work websites like these. And when you go to mmorpg.com and find a wrong definition or you are been told you should get over the definition certainly isn't helpful at all. 

    4. Again I have to quote "but it's not a real word. Real words help us communicate clearly. Coined phrases, idioms, and colloquialisms can help communicate but not like real words." 

    Technical phrases cannot be compared to idioms. Intensive-Care-Unit, that's a technical phrase and you are comparing that to an idiom? That was just an awful example mate, sorry. 

    And coined phrases can help us communicate in many cases even better than the real words. Please don't make up universal rules here. That's why Dickens, Shakespeare and many others invented some them in the first place. Because those coined phrases could relay their intention, feeling, meaning, etc. much better than the words were available to them. Devil-May-Care: let's do that with one real word instead and then you'd realize how much are you missing in relaying that. Of course, you have to help people without the knowledge understand them. And telling them whoever is relaxed or reckless or whichever word you choose you can say Devil-May-Care instead is not helping at all. 

    You skipped the second part of my post. So I guess you agree with we do need accurate definitions. 

    Well, it is long enough to be considered a letter now! :)

    I hope everything else is good with you and your family @Torval. Wish you all the best and let's meet soon. 

    Yours Truly, 
    Connie
    I am a piece of carbon with a soul, wondering where I got it from. 
    - Drunken Mozart in the Desert
  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 840
    I disagree with EVERYTHING posted above by EVERYBODY. You just need to get over it!

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,304
    Sorry, but there's no room to budge on the group vs solo issue. The catering to solo gameplay is what has brought the mmorpg genre to the brink of destruction, and the only thing that is going to save it will be infusing it once again with the heavily cooperative play that made it so fantastic to begin with.


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