Five Things MMO Fans Need to Get Over - The List at MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe CitadelMMORPG.COM Staff LegendaryPosts: 25,196

imageFive Things MMO Fans Need to Get Over - The List at MMORPG.com

I’ll start right off - this list is going to ruffle feathers. But also, if you actually read this far before getting angry with me, note - I am guilty of each of these five things myself. The MMO Genre is in the middle of the awkward teenage years (even if it’s closer to drinking age). At this time in our favorite pastime’s life, it’s natural to be brazen d*ckheads bicking with anyone and everyone about every little thing we think is important or righteous.

Read the full story here


¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Currently reading: The Unwomanly Face of War  ~Svetlana Alexievich (recommended reading)
                            The Inheritance Trilogy
~NK Jemisin

«1345678

Comments

  • OmegaXtcOmegaXtc Member UncommonPosts: 11
    I have a similar thread of thoughts in my head from time to time. Thanks for putting it on paper.
  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,106
    I agree with the list for the most part.  I do believe people that want more freedom and risk vs reward have been very much neglected by the genre for 15  years.  But I think that may be changing.  

    I've never cared much about payment model.  I don't love renting a game I paid for (sub and box fee) but if the game has features and gameplay I will pay what it takes...especially with the state of the genre.

    As bleak as things look for the genre, I find myself being less picky.  Hell I'm playing that snoozefest ESO currently.  
  • AllerleirauhAllerleirauh Member UncommonPosts: 307
    Oh, Bill, we all know by now that you like to ruffle our feathers. :P When has B2P been a new trend? I thought that B2P was an old payment model, that is making a comeback, either way, that is what I prefer.
    If you're interested in playing the following games, I invite you to use my friendship codes:

    "Ascend-A-Friend" Rift code: NNWCLZYYEWDJN3LQ3XJW

    "Refer-A-Friend" Devilian code to receive "Silver Whiskers Mask & Elara’s Blessing": 6CQQCJRYLE6RRTKGG9N7

    Sign in & apply the above codes here

    "I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world". ~ C. S. Lewis
  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIMember RarePosts: 1,611
    Who am I to tell someone what to like? I just think that people who don't like what I like are like brain-dead lemmings.

    #1. Loads and loads of PvE (EverQuest / World of Warcraft).
    #2. Deep and complex crafting (Star Wars Galaxies).
    #3. Gigantic and seamless world (Vanguard / ArcheAge).
    #4. Optional World PvP Server (EverQuest 2)
    #5. Endless amounts of armor and clothing (Star Wars Galaxies).
    #6. Loads of social features, e.g., incentives to hang out in Taverns, unique professions such as clothing designers, mechanics, shop owners, the ability to play musical instruments, etc (Star Wars Galaxies, Lord of the Rings Online).
    #7. Action-packed combat (The Force Unleashed / Black Desert / Chivalry).
    #8. World Housing (Star Wars Galaxies).
    #9. Deep character customization experience (APB).

    Areteo
    4ft Gaming Mouse Pad - www.mouserpad.com
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,595
    This is what 90% of the threads here argue about. It never gets old for some people.

  • klash2defklash2def Member RarePosts: 803
    I just want to say for the record, I have been preaching to everyone that Destiny is in-fact a MMO. Its funny now that people are screaming its a MMO now that D2 is coming to PC. It was already a MMO on console that PC only players had no access to.

    I agree with this list whole heartedly, but its just the consumer side.. what about the folks actually making the games? Surely there is a list for them? :P
    Angry Chicken
    USMC 2nd Mar Div/RCT 2/2nd LAR (Veteran)
    Music Supervisor
  • ElvocElvoc Member UncommonPosts: 317
    I agree with most of this for sure Bill, the funny thing I notice is that the longer I game and the older I get the more I fall out of one crowd and join another. Every old gamer remembers those wonder years of all weekend Molten Core raids and what fun it was getting together with a ton of people to just get it done. Now that I am older and have a family and less time to play, I have migrated to the Solo content need, bored with PVP and I fully believe a game isn't going to survive if someone doesn't put some money in it so the FTP is just choking itself out. Honestly FTP has as much validity as General Chat which is basically a waste of time in MMO's now a days. But I do understand that when I was 18 and gaming that PVP and FTP were or would have been the bomb because my fast food check would barely pay the bills and I wanted something for nothing all the time :). I think this will always be a turning point and there will never be a norm because the MMO crowd ranges from 15 to 60+..
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,597
    edited April 4
    Everyone is looking for what they enjoy. Labels do help you find if its what you want to look into. MMO is a broad term, mmorpg is not. I think thats where most get mixed up. I think the staff here also get hung up on labels. Like what is and is not a released game. Not taking time to look at if all systems are in the game and if not, mmorpg.com staff slap a label of released just because they took money. Then CoE does the same thing and for some reason they dont get the same label. I find it as confusing as the gamers here that think all MMOs should be mmorpgs.
    Post edited by Nanfoodle on



  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,542

    klash2def said:

    I just want to say for the record, I have been preaching to everyone that Destiny is in-fact a MMO. Its funny now that people are screaming its a MMO now that D2 is coming to PC. It was already a MMO on console that PC only players had no access to.



    I agree with this list whole heartedly, but its just the consumer side.. what about the folks actually making the games? Surely there is a list for them? :P


    Their is simple. Follow the money.

    "Change is the only constant."

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,542

    Elvoc said:

    I agree with most of this for sure Bill, the funny thing I notice is that the longer I game and the older I get the more I fall out of one crowd and join another. Every old gamer remembers those wonder years of all weekend Molten Core raids and what fun it was getting together with a ton of people to just get it done. Now that I am older and have a family and less time to play, I have migrated to the Solo content need, bored with PVP and I fully believe a game isn't going to survive if someone doesn't put some money in it so the FTP is just choking itself out. Honestly FTP has as much validity as General Chat which is basically a waste of time in MMO's now a days. But I do understand that when I was 18 and gaming that PVP and FTP were or would have been the bomb because my fast food check would barely pay the bills and I wanted something for nothing all the time :). I think this will always be a turning point and there will never be a norm because the MMO crowd ranges from 15 to 60+..



    That's the thing about f2p vs sub the issue is game quality more so than payment model. If I enjoy the game, the payment model means very little to me as I tend to spend just as much money in both.

    "Change is the only constant."

  • ValentinaValentina Los Angeles, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,791
    Loved this!
  • HarikenHariken Brighton, MAMember RarePosts: 1,681
    Just bring back PVP only servers. The two play styles will never mix.
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthMember RarePosts: 4,172
    Ahhh, the logic! It burns, Bill! x.x

    I couldn't agree more though :D

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    Feel free to send me a message if you want a guest pass to try Black Desert Online as well!

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SMember UncommonPosts: 1,410
    yeah someone really should get over this, its not the players though

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
    image

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,057
    kitarad said:
    This is what 90% of the threads here argue about. It never gets old for some people.
    If we got rid of these 5 topics the forums would largely become a barren empty wasteland and could be closed.

    Weird

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,057
    edited April 4
    As to the OP, my thoughts.
    5. Stop trying to blackwhite easily definable terms such a "massively multiplayer" and the battle ends, otherwise the resistance continues.

    4, 3, 2. Sure, plenty of room for all types of playstyles, game mechanics and preferences.

    The issue is the money chases what is popular so some niches are underserved or ignored entirely, at least until the recent crowdfunding trend. (assuming a few MMORPGs succeed)

    1. Have to disagree, cash shop gaming is a scourge that should be resisted at most every opportunity. I want a one reasonable price buys all model and don't care if someone else has no issue dropping $20K, I'm still going to call them out as being detrimental to the genre as a whole.
    Post edited by Kyleran on
    RufusUO

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolMember RarePosts: 1,457
    edited April 4
    I have to agree with Kyleran. Massively Multiplayer is pretty straight forward and easy to understand. If it's not Massively Multiplayer then it can't be an MMO. End of.

    If any game you are playing supports 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 players in the same "instance" then it's not Massively Multiplayer.

    Therefore, Destiny - Not an MMO!
    Post edited by jmcdermottuk on
  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCMember EpicPosts: 4,814
    "In short - let’s stop being jerks to each other, and instead work to something we all want - better games"

    Them are fighting words Bill ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,557
    I disagree that we need to get over these things and focus on what makes games good - I firmly believe that all 5 of these discussion points are pretty crucial for making MMOs good.

    The Acronym - discussing the meaning is pretty fundamental to the genre. I firmly believe it means massively-multiplayer online, so an online multiplayer game which has massively more players playing together than an average multiplayer online game (so, massively more than 128 players in the same world / instances / map). The definition doesn't extend to actual game features, simply the number of players who can interact with each other in game at the same time.

    So, you can argue over the finer points of the definition, but for the good of the genre, developers should be aiming to bring back the "massively" part of MMOs. It is the one and only unique selling point of the genre, yet it has been mostly lost or forgotten about.


    PvP vs PvE - you're right, we shouldn't be arguing over which is the best as there is room for both. But, we should readily acknowledge the problems with having both and openly discuss solutions for getting both into a game (flagging systems, balance issues, open world vs battleground etc).


    Sandbox vs Themepark - again, why do you want us to get over it? It is a discussion about the fundamental design philosophy of an MMO, something that affects the whole game and thus whether it is good or not. So, whenever we discuss it, we are ultimately discussing how to make games better than they are. I agree that both philosophies have merits, and I'm in favour of hybrids.


    Group vs Solo - again, this is a fundamental discussion about how to make MMOs better. How is that not good for the genre and the community? Again, sure, we have players from both camps who are too closed minded to acknowledge the other side, but the majority of us enjoy discussing the merits of one over the other, and how to have both communities satisfied in a game.


    Payment Models - again, this is another fundamental discussion about how to make MMOs better. Each payment model leads developers down specific routes when designing content. I don't care about the labels or even what payment model an MMO uses - as long as it doesn't affect content - but the payment model always affects content! So, I now no longer ever touch a F2P MMO - I've yet to play a good one, and each sub game that got converted was worse off after becoming f2p (from a gameplay and content point of view)



    In my opinion, the 5 things the fans need to get over in order for the genre to progress is the following:

    1) Graphics Quality - Building an MMO that supports 500+ people playing together means making sacrifices in graphics quality. Yet, we keep asking for the best graphics ever, resulting in instanced games with small groups.

    2) Vertical Progression - ever increasing stats, resulting in power gaps, fragments the community and kills balance. MMOs are about playing together, so any segregation in the community will result in reduced enjoyment and thus reduced retention. We need to embrace other forms of progression, rather than getting hung up on a feature that only single player and coop games can really use.

    3) Developer Led Stories - The better the storyline, the more restrictive the gameplay needs to be and the more disjointed the game world feels once you leave the story and rejoin the community. Developers have to spend so much time writing stories, followed by devs creating small instances, custom animations, voice overs etc.....story costs a lot of money. I'd rather than money was invested in gameplay.

    4) Holy Trinity - This is a bad way to design classes and balance content. It is far too limiting in terms of group composition, playstyles and content design. It results in very predictable combat and prevents a lot of depth. More roles are what is needed, combined with content that actually makes use of those roles. You can also go classless if you want, so long as the content is still designed with roles in mind, otherwise it becomes a zergfest.

    5) Access to Everything - There is an assumption that because I've paid for a product / service, I should have access to absolutely everything, regardless of time spent or skill required. This has resulted in a lot of dumbing down of content, because as soon as you lock content behind a skill barrier or a long time barrier, the complaints start rolling in. We need to get rid of this mentality, because it prevents devs from creating specialist content or long term goals.



    RufusUO
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,711
    Kyleran said:
    As to the OP, my thoughts.
    5. Stop trying to blackwhite easily definable terms such a "massively multiplayer" and the battle ends, otherwise the resistance continues.

    4, 3, 2. Sure, plenty of room for all types of playstyles, game mechanics and preferences.

    The issue is the money chases what is popular so some niches are underserved or ignored entirely, at least until the recent crowdfunding trend. (assuming a few MMORPGs succeed)

    1. Have to disagree, cash shop gaming is a scourge that should be resisted at most every opportunity. I want a one reasonable price buys all model and don't care if someone else has no issue dropping $20K, I'm still going to call them out as being detrimental to the genre as a whole.

    Re: 5, I think there is a massive gap between "easily definable" and "actually definable". I mean we've got titles like Spiral Knights, POE, GW, Dragon's Nest, Vindictus, and many more which are listed as MMOs, but they are really games where the people within "the game" is actually limited to a small party who never sees anyone else and the only "real" MMO part is that there is some sort of hub where you see people. 

    So, while I do think it's easily defined, I think it's much more difficult to ACTUALLY define it. Effectively it would mean redefining the genre as a whole because there isn't just confusion at the community level, the confusion filters all the way down to developers and publishers. And by confusion I obviously mean misuse, since I'm sure every dev and publisher who has defined their game that way has already heard about how it's not an MMO. 

    On number 1, I think he was agreeing with you that he doesn't like the cash shops. I don't think they're detrimental to the genre, I think that they've probably saved the genre in many ways. Subscriptions are simply not sustainable these days. Neither is B2P. That is, unless the solution is to create shallow B2P experiences with quarterly paid content updates. I think that would be sustainable, I just don't know if it would be viable. I don't see any saving subscriptions, though. People say they'll pay for something better, but time after time Maury has proven "That's a lie." That being said, I don't know whether F2P is sustainable either. Conversions are just too small and the whale bubble must burst at some point. I don't know what the solution is, TBH. I'm thinking some sort of B2P with quarterly paid updates might be best. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KothosesKothoses GalwayMember UncommonPosts: 857
    But each time some one clicks to debate such a thing, isn't that bringing more traffic through your site?

    The list really isn't something that matters, the concept of lets stop tearing down other peoples houses just cos we don't like our own, now that is something I can get behind.

    Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  • SmodenSmoden Parker, COMember UncommonPosts: 9
    To the OP, I can certainly appreciate your bottom line message.  However...

    Gotta agree with @cameltosis on this one.
    "Good game!"
  • sausagemixsausagemix North Dartmouth, MAMember UncommonPosts: 19
    The genre isn't not growing because "MMO fans" arent in agreement. Its not growing because IT ISNT POPULAR RIGHT NOW. Even if there was some magical treatise that defined what an MMO is or isn't the fact that MOBAs, traditional single player games, and shooters are doing so much better, require less residual resources and appeal to broader audiences wouldnt change. People like to socialize, yes but we have entered an age of fast content consumption where the level of devotion required of the market of the past was more than the market of today; in general, wants. If theres anything MMO fans have to 'get over' it is expecting the scale, scope and budget that WoW had and figuring out the aspects of MMOs that were most important to them INDIVIDUALLY and supporting and playing those.
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,819
    Kyleran said:
    5. Stop trying to blackwhite easily definable terms such a "massively multiplayer" and the battle ends, otherwise the resistance continues.

    Agreed. As long as there are games where a massive number of players can be in one place fighting a world boss or engaged in very large PVP battles, those will be the only ones deserving the "massively multiplayer" label.

    The problem here is the reluctance to adopt a more inclusive label that includes those as well as the other online games with massive communities but much lower concurrence caps. I guess "Multiplayer Online" is not sexy enough?


    1. Have to disagree, cash shop gaming is a scourge that should be resisted at most every opportunity. I want a one reasonable price buys all model and don't care if someone else has no issue dropping $20K, I'm still going to call them out as being detrimental to the genre as a whole.
    Cash shops change both the game design and the game play in subtle and not so subtle ways. A recent example of that in my experience, is the contrast between the accessible materials for all the crafting in ESO that was designed when the game was sub-based, and the obnoxious grind for furniture crafting material requirements that was designed with the cash shop in mind.

    And that's in one of the better cash shop games. Many others are far worse.
    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Las Cruces, NMMember UncommonPosts: 384
    Well said.

    image
Sign In or Register to comment.