If gear is crafted, then some players don't.

QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
At the early levels in Tree of Savior, mobs drop a lot of gear and a lot of quests give gear as rewards.  This isn't any different from a lot of other MMORPGs.

But somewhere around level 60 or so, mobs mostly stop dropping gear.  Instead, they drop recipes that can be used to craft gear.  Likewise, quests transition from giving you gear as rewards to giving you recipes to craft gear.  There aren't fixed crafting professions in Tree of Savior, but if you have the recipe and materials, you can craft the gear, period.  The materials are often pretty common mob drops.

When grouping for dungeons, a lot of mobs basically don't hurt me, as I've got pretty good gear.  But I commonly see other players in groups taking massive damage and sometimes even dying.  It was obvious that they didn't have as good of gear, so I tried inspecting people to see what they had.

In groups for dungeons with level requirements of 115 and 130, I've seen a lot of players wearing a lot of two-star gear.  That is, gear with a level requirement of 15, and they're still wearing it more than 100 levels later.  Some players have empty gear slots, or have some gear that is broken and they haven't bothered to fix it even before the start of a dungeon run.

As best as I can tell, what such players are doing is to equip gear that they happen to get to drop.  And when the gear stops dropping directly, they stop equipping better gear.  I tried to convince some people that, even if you're not willing to pay for the 1 million silver pieces of gear, at least get the cheap upgrades that can be had for 20k on the auction house.
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Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,223
    Bots dont usually bother with gear upgrades. ;)

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
    Kyleran said:
    Bots dont usually bother with gear upgrades. ;)
    Bots don't usually do dungeon queues in which the move around with the group and mostly respond appropriate to chat, either.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Novo Hamburgo - RS - BrazilMember EpicPosts: 2,248
    Quizzical said:
    Kyleran said:
    Bots dont usually bother with gear upgrades. ;)
    Bots don't usually do dungeon queues in which the move around with the group and mostly respond appropriate to chat, either.
    How about V.I.Ps?

    " Tawnos's blueprints were critical to the creation of my armor. As he once sealed himself in steel, I sealed myself in a walking crypt. "
    —Urza

    - Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102
  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAMember EpicPosts: 6,026
    This happens in every game, unfortunately. I've seen it happen even when gear drops - some people aren't as gaming saavy as others, and just don't realize or care

    I've never really liked "gear score" requirements in games, but it does do a good job of weeding this type of stuff out.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    Getting the recipes you want to drop is a pain. The gearing path in this game is clunky and not intuitive.

    Even at low levels there are recipes but they never drop and so you're stuck with the vendor gear or paying ridiculous AH prices. Once you get past level 40 it's an RNG crap shoot to get the recipes you want.
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • NycteliosNyctelios Novo Hamburgo - RS - BrazilMember EpicPosts: 2,248
    Torval said:
    Getting the recipes you want to drop is a pain. The gearing path in this game is clunky and not intuitive.

    Even at low levels there are recipes but they never drop and so you're stuck with the vendor gear or paying ridiculous AH prices. Once you get past level 40 it's an RNG crap shoot to get the recipes you want.
    Which enforces grinding... but it fall flat on the floor once you reach small maps crowded with ranged characters with only 1 channel. 

    The KS is real.

    " Tawnos's blueprints were critical to the creation of my armor. As he once sealed himself in steel, I sealed myself in a walking crypt. "
    —Urza

    - Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,621
    Does this game have full loot PvP may be they don't want to lose the gear to dungeon mates?

  • GodeauGodeau SingaporeMember UncommonPosts: 30
    edited March 9
    The level 15 gear you saw is probably the cafrisun set; I used to equip that all the way to 240 and beyond. It is one of two sets in the game(the other being manahas set at lv270) that add an extra damage line to your auto attacks. It is insanely good at low to mid levels(when paired with elemental headgears and arde etc), and still decently viable at higher levels for auto attack builds like chaplain or quarrelshooter. With how the gem system being kinda broken, offering distinct advantages over players who don't utilize them, one could just slap on 5star or higher yellow gems into the cafrisun body and pants and you'll be good to go till max level(for normal pve content). I remember vaguely doing r8 quests on my lv15 set, lol.(I have quitted ToS 3months ago)

    Apart from what I have said, I agree that bots are usually poorly geared. With time, you can tell apart a player or a bot almost instantly.
    Post edited by Godeau on
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
    Torval said:
    Getting the recipes you want to drop is a pain. The gearing path in this game is clunky and not intuitive.

    Even at low levels there are recipes but they never drop and so you're stuck with the vendor gear or paying ridiculous AH prices. Once you get past level 40 it's an RNG crap shoot to get the recipes you want.
    So I checked the auction house right now.  For each of the four main armor slots (top, bottom, shoes, and gloves), there are multiple pieces with a level requirement of 120 available for 10k silver or less.  If you don't want to buy a very nice piece of gear for 300k silver, fine.  At least buy the 10k one.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
    kitarad said:
    Does this game have full loot PvP may be they don't want to lose the gear to dungeon mates?
    No.  PVP is consensual and not open world.  I haven't done PVP, but I'm pretty sure it's not full loot, either.
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,621
    edited March 9
    Consensual? Bloody hell I must look into this game then!

    Edit: My goodness the art is very nice 
    Post edited by kitarad on

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
    Godeau said:
    The level 15 gear you saw is probably the cafrisun set; I used to equip that all the way to 240 and beyond. It is one of two sets in the game(the other being manahas set at lv270) that add an extra damage line to your auto attacks. It is insanely good at low to mid levels(when paired with elemental headgears and arde etc), and still decently viable at higher levels for auto attack builds like chaplain or quarrelshooter. With how the gem system being kinda broken, offering distinct advantages over players who don't utilize them, one could just slap on 5star or higher yellow gems into the cafrisun body and pants and you'll be good to go till max level(for normal pve content). I remember vaguely doing r8 quests on my lv15 set, lol.(I have quitted ToS 3months ago)

    Apart from what I have said, I agree that bots are usually poorly geared. With time, you can tell apart a player or a bot almost instantly.
    That doesn't explain leaving gear slots empty entirely.

    I didn't explicitly state that people doing this weren't equipping gems, but well, they weren't.  Cafrisun also only lets you equip one gem per piece, which greatly diminishes its relative effectiveness once gear lets you equip two gems per piece.  And while I did see some cafrisun gear, the users weren't exactly equipped with arde dagger+agny necklace.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    Quizzical said:
    Torval said:
    Getting the recipes you want to drop is a pain. The gearing path in this game is clunky and not intuitive.

    Even at low levels there are recipes but they never drop and so you're stuck with the vendor gear or paying ridiculous AH prices. Once you get past level 40 it's an RNG crap shoot to get the recipes you want.
    So I checked the auction house right now.  For each of the four main armor slots (top, bottom, shoes, and gloves), there are multiple pieces with a level requirement of 120 available for 10k silver or less.  If you don't want to buy a very nice piece of gear for 300k silver, fine.  At least buy the 10k one.
    I understand and agree you can do that. There are two reasons main reasons why I think players don't.

    One is that progression upgrades aren't intuitive. The game does little to nothing to present upgrade options to players so they can form a plan around that. There is a ton of gear on the market with no real clue as to what is a good upgrade, what are good prices, what to buy and what to skip.

    The other reason is that players who do understand that gear path may want to game for the gear themselves. This goes back to massive grind to collect recipes for gear you want.

    I do sometimes buy gear from the market, but that's not fun. It's not fun to make other players rich while trying to keep in good gear. It's not fun just buying the gear from the market.
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,223
    Quizzical said:
    Kyleran said:
    Bots dont usually bother with gear upgrades. ;)
    Bots don't usually do dungeon queues in which the move around with the group and mostly respond appropriate to chat, either.
    You have people respond to you in dungeon chats? Definitely bots then, haven't seen a real player respond in chat in a modern MMO since back on '08 or so.
    ;)

    Sounds like the game has some lazy or inexperienced players as all games do which is why many eschew PUGs.


    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
    For the benefit of those not familiar with the game, there aren't very many possible level requirements on gear.  There is gear that requires level 1, 15, 40, 75, 120, 170, 220, 270, 315, and that's it.  There are no other possible level requirements on gear.  So if you get gear with a level 120 requirement that you like, it's not going to be obsolete three levels later.  It's good all the way up to 170.

    In some cases, it's reasonable to keep gear from one tier even all the way through the next.  For example, my current "five star" gear includes Lydeka, Zachariel Bangle, and Shade Hands, all of which are very nice four star pieces and I didn't see any five star gear pieces of their respective types that I liked better.  To take a piece that is mediocre for its own tier and still use it three tiers later is rather less reasonable, however.

    Another important point about buying gear is that you can use it for a while and then sell it on the auction house once you get something better and get most of your money back.  So you could think of it as gear rentals rather than gear purchases.  There is an auction house commission of 10%, or 30% if you don't have a token, plus 1%-2.5% to list the gear (depending on how long you want it to be on the auction house), but you still get most of the money back.
  • GodeauGodeau SingaporeMember UncommonPosts: 30
    Quizzical said:
    That doesn't explain leaving gear slots empty entirely.

    I didn't explicitly state that people doing this weren't equipping gems, but well, they weren't.  Cafrisun also only lets you equip one gem per piece, which greatly diminishes its relative effectiveness once gear lets you equip two gems per piece.  And while I did see some cafrisun gear, the users weren't exactly equipped with arde dagger+agny necklace.
    Then in that case, either they don't want to spend money buying/repairing gear, just outright fooling around, someone's clone bot account, or just couldn't care altogether.

    As Torval mentioned earlier, the gear system is extremely clunky, there are no outright paths in terms of gear progression, leaving certain gears in favour over others(cafrisun). The other problem is the games' mechanic in typical, leveling pve content. I believe most of us that played ToS could relate to siauliai mission, where everyone would attempt twice/thrice daily per char once hitting level 100; almost every boss attack could be dodged by jumping. Even a full naked party without any gear except maybe a weapon can clear it, as long as the player knows what he's doing. With content like that as the daily leveling staple, perhaps most people couldn't even be bothered trying to gear up their characters(alts).

    My 2 cents
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,361
    The gear situation in this game is sort of like the grouping problem you described in most every game. There is a reasonable system in place but it is cumbersome and tedious enough that players don't utilize it effectively.

    I'm curious if you think the problem is similar and if there is a solution or if you think they don't really relate and the AH/market solution is adequate.
    Avatar Artist: The Who
    Album: The Who Sell Out
    Featured Tracks: Heinz Baked Beans, Our Love Was, Hall of the Mountain King (the first and most awesome rock version)
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,621
    edited March 9
    Are there sites to read about the gearing up is the process so unintuitive that you cannot figure it out. I presume you're talking about gear choices for mini maxing.

    Even then I would definitely gear up my character if I am playing the characters seems really odd to leave them so poorly geared.
    Post edited by kitarad on

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
    kitarad said:
    Consensual? Bloody hell I must look into this game then!

    Edit: My goodness the art is very nice 
    It's a quest-based PVE theme park.  The game world is enormous, with probably over 200 zones that average about 10 or so quests each.  I wouldn't call it quest hub-based, as in many zones, those 10 quests might be picked up from five different places, but there is a lot of hand-holding to point you to the quests if you want to do them.  They do a very good job of varying the quests, so it's not just kill 10 rats, then kill 10 more rats, etc.

    Like most MMORPGs, the game is mostly about combat.  Combat is the overhead "three-quarters" view that is today sometimes mistakenly called isometric, but the underlying graphics methods are very much 3D.  The game just launched last year, so it very much has modern graphics.  It's not terribly demanding on hardware, either; to experiment, I just turned off vertical sync and was getting well over 100 frames per second at near max settings (I turned off camera vibration, but that's it) while fighting mobs, using a Radeon R7 360 video card that cost under $100.

    The economy is more or less player driven, but it's not deep.  Other than quest items and some event items, hardly anything is bind on pickup.  Some things (e.g., recipes and materials) become character-bound when traded to a character on a different account, though not when traded to one of your alts.

    The game is "free to play", with an optional $9/month subscription ("tokens") that gets you most of the buyable advantages.  Token advantages are account-wide, not per character.  Token advantages are considerable (e.g., +30% bonus to experience from killing mobs, +10% movement speed, auction house commission of 10% rather than 30%, etc.), but beyond that, I wouldn't call it pay to win.

    The game does some things that are fairly unusual for MMORPGs.  I list some of them in this thread:

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/455785/interesting-game-mechanics
  • GodeauGodeau SingaporeMember UncommonPosts: 30
    edited March 9
    Torval said:
    The gear situation in this game is sort of like the grouping problem you described in most every game. There is a reasonable system in place but it is cumbersome and tedious enough that players don't utilize it effectively.

    I'm curious if you think the problem is similar and if there is a solution or if you think they don't really relate and the AH/market solution is adequate.
    If I may, this feels more closer to how the game content is designed. Why change out of my lowbie, cafrisun gear when monsters don't really hit me at all? Since monsters are unable to do that, I might as well go for the gear that provides the highest dps output(cafrisun again) for clearing content and quests.

    In my opinion, IMC isn't doing much to make people feel the need to change/upgrade out of certain gear(till end game).
    Post edited by Godeau on
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,103
    kitarad said:
    Are there sites to read about the gearing up is the process so unintuitive that you cannot figure it out. I presume you're talking about gear choices for mini maxing.

    Even then I would definitely gear up my character if I am playing the characters seems really odd to leave them so poorly geared.
    Gearing up is largely about buying gear off of the auction house.  You can check here to see what gear exists for some slot and tier:

    http://www.tosbase.com/database/items/equipment/

    Then you can check the auction house and buy it if you see something you want.  Some of the gear listed doesn't actually exist in the game, or is very rare and expensive.  So don't hold out for the very best pieces of gear listed on the site.

    I don't think it's really that unintuitive.  It's perhaps a little different from most MMORPGs, but only a little, as there are plenty of other games where gearing up is at least partially about buying things off the auction house.

    If you get something good that you don't have use for yourself, or have leveled past gear that used to be good for you, do be sure to sell it on the auction house.  That's a major source of revenue to buy the gear you want.  Even some quest reward items are valuable, though many of them are junk.  For example, every character can get a Zachariel Bangle by doing quests in Royal Mausoleum and perhaps buying a few Vikaras Cores, depending on how many drop for you along the way.  But the crafted item is still worth about 400k on the auction house.
  • KumaponKumapon Member UncommonPosts: 951
    kitarad said:
    Does this game have full loot PvP may be they don't want to lose the gear to dungeon mates?
    No full loot pvp. It does have open world pvp in the form of guild vs guild. Both guilds have to agree to go to war. So if you don't join a pvp guild you won't have to worry about getting killed. 

    Tree of saviour also has PVP Arenas.  
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,621
    edited March 9
    I am definitely checking out this game for sure and will sub I hardly play any game without subbing if there is a choice. The class choices are really a lot and interesting. How the hell did I miss this game or I may have checked a thread and mistakenly thought PvP and decided against it. Thank you all for enlightening me.
    Post edited by kitarad on

  • GodeauGodeau SingaporeMember UncommonPosts: 30
    edited March 9
    kitarad said:
    I am definitely checking out this game for sure and will sub I hardly play any game without subbing if there is a choice.
    I definitely recommend subbing if you're planning to play it for the long term.. that extra +1 instance in each tab(dungeons, missions, saalus etc) per day makes quite a difference overtime... along with other perks like zero learning time for attributes, and other hindrances like trade and auction limitations removed makes it all worth it
    Post edited by Godeau on
  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,621
    How is it on the English servers I hope there is a decent population ?

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