Even if the site did the poll everything I mentioned would still be true. It is not representative of the market. Smiling several different sites that attract several different types of gamers may give a accurate result.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Your typical thread...well, not just yours, most threads here follow same pattern :-P
you dont know much about sampling, do you?
when they make a statistic such as average human height, how many humans do you think they measure?
If you can poll people uniformly at random from among the set of people you're trying to measure, then sampling works fine. But that's often difficult to do, and in internet polls with a convenience sample, you're not likely to get such a uniform sample.
This website. Absolutely. The poll is about the market not the website. If there is not an equal chance of sampling every demographic in the market then your site is not representative of the market.
A poll of shopping done only at Walmart would not be representative of the entire shopping market. It might be representative of those that like cheap products.
It doesn't matter what the name is. What matters is is there an equal chance of all demographics in that Market being represented here and thus an equal chance of all demographics in the market participating in the poll.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
This site's forums catch only two types of people: enthusiastic gamers looking for an outlet for their favorite title/upcoming title and old crusty MMORPG vets that are jaded about the current state of affairs. As you can see by the poll yesterday, the only type of people that stick around on the forums are the latter of the two...
That is absolutely necessary for a sampling. If the poll is going to represent the Market he sample must represent the market. If all demographics in the market don't have an equal chance of participating then your results are skewed and biased.
What you personally use and enjoy is not the question. The question is does this site and thus this poll accurately represent the MMORPG market. It does not.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I understand what you are looking for, but it's not really necessary to take a sampling. I don't use any other gaming sites for my daily routine of online gaming. I don't play console games or systems and therefor THIS site is all that matters to me in terms of what I enjoy, which is online gaming or MMORPGs. So why would I care what MOBA, FPS or console gamers think of the MMORPG genre?
MMO forums are notorious for being a place where all bitter 'veteran' players agglomerate and spend all their time complaining. Go ask the millions of WoW players, half a million XIV players and other thousand of current active players of different MMOs if they all agree to play a garbage MMO that only exists inside delusional players' heads.
Obviously all polls are going to be negative, yet no dev has made this imaginary perfect MMO, I wonder why... because they all are incompetent, right? the enlightened forum players that should be making MMOs. /s
That is absolutely necessary for a sampling. If the poll is going to represent the Market he sample must represent the market. If all demographics in the market don't have an equal chance of participating then your results are skewed and biased.
Yep. They should include polls regarding player happiness in MMO's people play and we would get a vastly different result than what these forums claim.
I don't see this site as an angry vet pub. This site has been around since before WoW even existed, so to say we and thus you are only inclusive to angry vets, then you aren't helping to prove your point. Everyone has an opinion and all opinions are biased. Taking a poll on this website means just as much to me as if someone sampled the entire market. I think you'd be shocked by the amount of people playing WoW or FFXIV that aren't actually enjoying the game but simply play it because there is nothing else that does it better.
I've played pretty much every major mainstream MMO under the sun. My personal opinion is the market sucks which is why I voted the way I did. I'm not biased towards one game or another, but I've played them all. Just like most people who frequent this site. There is a huge market out there and while millions of people are playing this game or that game, the real question is, how long are they playing those games before they switch to another? The market is flooded but that doesn't mean it's an overabundance of high quality games. Every MMO is lacking something and it only gets worse every year.
This site is not, but most MMO forums are.
No, I wouldn't be surprised, I think a lot of players would say that they want to play this imaginary MMO, but that is the central point, this perfect MMO is IMAGINARY, it's a delusion, it will never happen and I already said why in my first post in this thread (partially).
Most people want to relive their old MMO memories, but it just won't happen. Hell, I'd love to play the older games again, but it's impossible to happen for various reasons, I'm not new, I also have played a lot of MMOs and also pre-wow MMOs. I just don't fall for nostalgia. Maybe it's cool to discuss about this imaginary perfect MMO and that's why people keep talking about it?
It's simple. You suck at creating polls. You give four positive answers and one negative answer. Why would any reasoned person answer a one question poll when it is intentionally designed to create a specific outcome? And why would any reasoned person attempt to determine the opinion of an entire population by asking only one question?
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
It's simple. You suck at creating polls. You give four positive answers and one negative answer. Why would any reasoned person answer a one question poll when it is intentionally designed to create a specific outcome? And why would any reasoned person attempt to determine the opinion of an entire population by asking only one question?
Good catch!
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm willing to bet that if MMORPG did an official poll on this, the results would still be similar. It's called sampling a demographic, so despite how small his results are, it still a good example, especially given the lopsided results. All this meaningless stuff is obviously not something you learn in a statistics class in high school. Instead, you get replies like those seen in this thread by people who went to college with a Liberal Arts major.
You would get similar results because of demographic on mmorpg.com site.
If you took a poll that included all mmo players globally - night and day difference.
The jab against intelligence of posters here and those with Liberal Arts degrees is an Ad Hominem... why even go there, it just takes away from the point you made.
Night and day difference ?..... I clam bull crap !...... The only thing that would make the poll more valid is more votes, it's as simple as that !
Here I copy and pasted this from the original post:
" Features catch the eye of intrigue " If advertised well this could draw massive groups into their product, key word " intrigue ". This word can be tricky because often it's a temporary feeling. Marketing knows this, ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS CATCH THE LARGE POPULATION FOR SHORT TERM. This is the goal !
This sight is dying because mmorpg's are dying (and imo they need to, so the riddling sniffers move onto fps/moba genre and the original people who like rpg elements can get their games back). That is why you can't get a large voting pool.
I'm here and didn't vote in his poll, I did see it though, even responded within the thread. I just knew where he was going with it (which was obvious based on the options, as Grunty pointed out). Just another way for Delete to say Pantheon is the only "real" MMO... I'm sure these results will be used in his next, "Pantheon will be huge" post.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think there are some fun games out today. There are some things I hate.
I would say gaming, MMO and in General, is better today than it was "back in the day". That doesn't necessarily mean the games are better (or worse), but that gaming as an experience is better. Better graphics, smaller devices, better availability, and haven't entirely replaced the old games. You can still go play a lot of them if you wanted to. They won't be "the same" as you remember them, not necessarily because the game has changed, but more because the world outside of that game has, and so have we as players.
A good game is a good game - that's a universal thing, it doesn't necessarily rely on the technology. I think Gin Rummy is a good game, that's undoubtedly low tech, but doesn't mean that I think the only good games are card games, or that i think the computer version is necessarily better than breaking out a deck of real cards. I like Monopoly as well, that requires a bit more than a deck of cards, but not by much, and again, sometimes digital version is better, sometimes not so much (can't cheat as easily by hiding $100 bills under the game board from my little sister, for example).
I don't think the people of this site really mirrors the average people, just look on the top voted games...
But you are right that it feels like most MMOs done the last 8-10 years feels like they were made to get a few million players for 2 months but not much longterm.
There is really no cause to call a short term game not a MMORPG though, any massive multiplayer roleplaying game is a MMORPG even if it just is intended to be played a month.
I do think it is a shame that not more devs have patience, a long term game that keeps fewer players will still earn you more in the end then a short term gimmick game and the genre honestly need a mix of those and some games in the middle as well.
Sometimes I feel like having a hundred channels but all just show Mister Ed...
The whole idea that the same MMO can attract all MMO fans is just silly, compromising just give everyone a so-so experience instead of something awesome.
Even genres like strategy don't do that, they have RTS, regular turn based battlefield simulators, 4X games and so on. In fact, most genres are like that.
Trying to make all games for everyone will just shrink the genre.
I don't think the people of this site really mirrors the average people, just look on the top voted games...
But you are right that it feels like most MMOs done the last 8-10 years feels like they were made to get a few million players for 2 months but not much longterm.
There is really no cause to call a short term game not a MMORPG though, any massive multiplayer roleplaying game is a MMORPG even if it just is intended to be played a month.
I do think it is a shame that not more devs have patience, a long term game that keeps fewer players will still earn you more in the end then a short term gimmick game and the genre honestly need a mix of those and some games in the middle as well.
Sometimes I feel like having a hundred channels but all just show Mister Ed...
The whole idea that the same MMO can attract all MMO fans is just silly, compromising just give everyone a so-so experience instead of something awesome.
Even genres like strategy don't do that, they have RTS, regular turn based battlefield simulators, 4X games and so on. In fact, most genres are like that.
Trying to make all games for everyone will just shrink the genre.
I just wonder how it's worse to make a game that has mass appeal (millions at launch and shortly after) then tapers off into every day churn, 200k-500k longterm?
I also wonder what these games are that people speak of as if they don't have steady player bases?... Most have been able to carve out enough of an audience to stay profitable. Most are still running to this day... What games are not viable longterm products? Wildstar?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I just wonder how it's worse to make a game that has mass appeal (millions at launch and shortly after) then tapers off into every day churn, 200k-500k longterm?
I think Loke ment the same with "the genre honestly need a mix of those and some games in the middle as well."
With the oversturated market and with games even in your pocket (mobile), churn seems inevitable. What makes the difference is how the devs handle it, and I think this was the 'longterm' theme of Loke's post. It is better if the devs accept the situation and focusing on their existing playerbase, than start to slam around randomly, trying out new ideas which seem popular, etc. - and in the process chasing away their loyal players. Good example is FC, they did the latter with AoC in the late 2000s and chased away players in full cohorts then after TSW launch and churn, they put the focus on the actual players, and -not surprisingly- they have a constant (or even slowly increasing) population, with maybe one of the best communities out there. LotRO's trait trees could be an example on the latter version too, when they added it into an aging game in hopes of lure in new players. While it did, on the other hand it alienated the veterans and overall the game have lost much more players than the arrived newcomers...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying never change anything in your game Just when you change something, on the long run it is better if you change it in a way to please your current customers, and not in the hopes of getting new ones, especially if there's a collision between the two views. Also, the older and more settled your game is, the lesser change you should drop onto it - not all games can survive an ARR like FF did (but of course there was nothing to lose, the original release was barely floating)
So many posters on this site have played MMOs for more than ten years, I think that skews our thinking. If you have only played them for a few years, today's "MMOs" must seem great. We don't represent the MMO community, because there is no community. The only community you will find is separate ones for MMOs and this site, maybe there are others but nothing that represents MMO players as a whole.
Many good points here, I would say mmos changed styles about 3 or 4 times over maybe ?.... Something else that no one ever takes into account are the classics. They changed completely where their not even classics anymore (main change being too easy, their unbearable).
With this, the new player has no comparison, in fact worst, they cant because if they try them to see what all the excitement WAS all about, they would even say they suck !....Their bad by any ones views both old players and new ( their basically nothing for anyone ).
For the newer player who just came on in the last few years only get to see the gimmicks style. They cant compare !
Comments
A poll of shopping done only at Walmart would not be representative of the entire shopping market. It might be representative of those that like cheap products.
It doesn't matter what the name is. What matters is is there an equal chance of all demographics in that Market being represented here and thus an equal chance of all demographics in the market participating in the poll.
What you personally use and enjoy is not the question. The question is does this site and thus this poll accurately represent the MMORPG market. It does not.
Obviously all polls are going to be negative, yet no dev has made this imaginary perfect MMO, I wonder why... because they all are incompetent, right? the enlightened forum players that should be making MMOs. /s
No, I wouldn't be surprised, I think a lot of players would say that they want to play this imaginary MMO, but that is the central point, this perfect MMO is IMAGINARY, it's a delusion, it will never happen and I already said why in my first post in this thread (partially).
Most people want to relive their old MMO memories, but it just won't happen. Hell, I'd love to play the older games again, but it's impossible to happen for various reasons, I'm not new, I also have played a lot of MMOs and also pre-wow MMOs. I just don't fall for nostalgia. Maybe it's cool to discuss about this imaginary perfect MMO and that's why people keep talking about it?
Here is a post that I made months ago somewhat related to this:
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7096224#Comment_7096224
Complements why I think that "old-school" perfect mmo that people keep dreaming about won't ever happen.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Here I copy and pasted this from the original post:
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I had a lot of fun then. I hated some of it.
I think there are some fun games out today. There are some things I hate.
I would say gaming, MMO and in General, is better today than it was "back in the day". That doesn't necessarily mean the games are better (or worse), but that gaming as an experience is better. Better graphics, smaller devices, better availability, and haven't entirely replaced the old games. You can still go play a lot of them if you wanted to. They won't be "the same" as you remember them, not necessarily because the game has changed, but more because the world outside of that game has, and so have we as players.
A good game is a good game - that's a universal thing, it doesn't necessarily rely on the technology. I think Gin Rummy is a good game, that's undoubtedly low tech, but doesn't mean that I think the only good games are card games, or that i think the computer version is necessarily better than breaking out a deck of real cards. I like Monopoly as well, that requires a bit more than a deck of cards, but not by much, and again, sometimes digital version is better, sometimes not so much (can't cheat as easily by hiding $100 bills under the game board from my little sister, for example).
But you are right that it feels like most MMOs done the last 8-10 years feels like they were made to get a few million players for 2 months but not much longterm.
There is really no cause to call a short term game not a MMORPG though, any massive multiplayer roleplaying game is a MMORPG even if it just is intended to be played a month.
I do think it is a shame that not more devs have patience, a long term game that keeps fewer players will still earn you more in the end then a short term gimmick game and the genre honestly need a mix of those and some games in the middle as well.
Sometimes I feel like having a hundred channels but all just show Mister Ed...
The whole idea that the same MMO can attract all MMO fans is just silly, compromising just give everyone a so-so experience instead of something awesome.
Even genres like strategy don't do that, they have RTS, regular turn based battlefield simulators, 4X games and so on. In fact, most genres are like that.
Trying to make all games for everyone will just shrink the genre.
I also wonder what these games are that people speak of as if they don't have steady player bases?... Most have been able to carve out enough of an audience to stay profitable. Most are still running to this day... What games are not viable longterm products? Wildstar?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
With the oversturated market and with games even in your pocket (mobile), churn seems inevitable. What makes the difference is how the devs handle it, and I think this was the 'longterm' theme of Loke's post. It is better if the devs accept the situation and focusing on their existing playerbase, than start to slam around randomly, trying out new ideas which seem popular, etc. - and in the process chasing away their loyal players. Good example is FC, they did the latter with AoC in the late 2000s and chased away players in full cohorts
LotRO's trait trees could be an example on the latter version too, when they added it into an aging game in hopes of lure in new players. While it did, on the other hand it alienated the veterans and overall the game have lost much more players than the arrived newcomers...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying never change anything in your game
I would say mmos changed styles about 3 or 4 times over maybe ?.... Something else that no one ever takes into account are the classics. They changed completely where their not even classics anymore (main change being too easy, their unbearable).
With this, the new player has no comparison, in fact worst, they cant because if they try them to see what all the excitement WAS all about, they would even say they suck !....Their bad by any ones views both old players and new ( their basically nothing for anyone ).
For the newer player who just came on in the last few years only get to see the gimmicks style. They cant compare !