Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
In a sense, yes, but Templars are not the only class that can be custom tailored to play all 3 roles with enough imagination: I've healed with a magsorc and tanked with a stamsorc as well.
But even with the Templar you need to go outside the class abilities to tank effectively and they're sorely lacking in the intangibles of tanking such as mob gathering and CCing which the DK has in spades.
The warden does seem to be the first one to have all the tanking and healing tools built-in. As to DPS I guess we'll see just how effective they make it and whether they give it a major brutality proc skill like every class except the Templar has.
But if they do what practically every MMO has ever done when they add a new class, I'm sure it'll be OP'd as all hell until the 1st or 2nd major patch post release.
You will have to go outside of the Warden trees to tank effectively. Your point?
Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
In a sense, yes, but Templars are not the only class that can be custom tailored to play all 3 roles with enough imagination: I've healed with a magsorc and tanked with a stamsorc as well.
But even with the Templar you need to go outside the class abilities to tank effectively and they're sorely lacking in the intangibles of tanking such as mob gathering and CCing which the DK has in spades.
The warden does seem to be the first one to have all the tanking and healing tools built-in. As to DPS I guess we'll see just how effective they make it and whether they give it a major brutality proc skill like every class except the Templar has.
But if they do what practically every MMO has ever done when they add a new class, I'm sure it'll be OP'd as all hell until the 1st or 2nd major patch post release.
You will have to go outside of the Warden trees to tank effectively. Your point?
Will you? You must know more about the Winter's Embrace skill line than I do then because it sure seems like a self contained tanking line with CCs, pulls and even a conjured shield. That plus the aggroing frost staff that uses magicka as the block resource sure looks to me like they're trying to build a magicka tank that doesn't need a sword and board to tank.
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They can't even balance the classes/weapons they have right now, this will only add to the pile.
With the way that they've changed classes/weapons they really need to clarify to newer players that there are definite preferred roles for certain classes. Unless you're a Nightblade atm which is laughable in all its forms compared to the others.
You've just described pretty much every mmo ever, especially when they add new content.
Yeah, let's just pretend like ESO isn't the worst of the lot in that regard and deflect onto other games instead.....
Anything where you can go outside of rigid lines is going to be hard to balance, that's the trade off, you can have an open build system or a rigid class system. Anything where there are multiple possibilities is going to rely on the player to create something that works both within the system, as well as for their playstyle. If you think ESO is the worst of the lot, you've never played a true open skill based system before like SWG pre-cu.
In an open build system you need to understand what works and what doesn't, otherwise you gimp yourself, that's not a problem with the system, that's a problem with the player not putting in the time to learn how the system works.
If you want instant balance play something else.
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Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
All classes can heal tank and DPS if built right.
In this sense, as it was explained to us, each line has its own focus. Templar kind of does too, but not to the extent of the Warden. Yes ALL classes can build for any role, but the Warden is the first one they consider truly built with 3 skill lines focused on each role.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
All classes can heal tank and DPS if built right.
In this sense, as it was explained to us, each line has its own focus. Templar kind of does too, but not to the extent of the Warden. Yes ALL classes can build for any role, but the Warden is the first one they consider truly built with 3 skill lines focused on each role.
Exactly. People like to make excuses based on the fact that you can play how you want as you level but that's simply not true @ endgame. Templars= healers DK=Tank Sorc/NB= DPS
Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
All classes can heal tank and DPS if built right.
In this sense, as it was explained to us, each line has its own focus. Templar kind of does too, but not to the extent of the Warden. Yes ALL classes can build for any role, but the Warden is the first one they consider truly built with 3 skill lines focused on each role.
If that is truly the case, then what would Zenimax say about the Templar, that it is unfocused?
Templar has three distinct skill lines: Aedric Spear has tanking skills (charge/stun/damage mitigation/self heal/aoe) similar to traditional Paladin tanks, Dawn's Wrath has ranged DPS skills similar to traditional Cleric DPS roles, and Restoring Light is arguably the best AND only dedicated healing line. To me the Templar is a true HYBRID in that it offers three distinct roles: Ranged DPS, Melee DPS/Tank, and Healer. It is perhaps arguable that Templar is more comparable to a Shaman from World of Warcraft in that Aedric Spear is not as dedicated of a tanking skill line as the Dragon Knight skill line might be.
Hell, let's be unbiased and compare the leaked Warden kit for Winter's Embrace (Tank line) to Aedric Spear (Tank line), which I believe is the only skill-line that is a point of contention:
Damage/Sustain
Puncturing Strikes (Templar)
Launch a relentless assault, striking enemies in front of you four times with your Aedric spear dealing Magic Damage with each strike. Skill paths: heals you or increases damage.
Polar Wind (Warden)
Blast friends with soothing healing over time or strike at foes with nasty frost damage. Skill paths: heals or damages?
CC/Utility
Piercing Javelin (Templar)
Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength, stunning them and knocking them back. Skill paths: extra damage or longer stun.
Impaling Shards (Warden)
Moves enemies with a snare. Skill Paths: unknown.
Target Control/Positioning
Focused Charge (Templar)
Charge, interrupts and conditionally stuns. Skill Paths: aoe interrupt or always stuns + off balance.
Frozen Device (Warden)
Drops a rune that teleports enemies to you. Skill Paths: unknown.
Dissimilar: Mitigation/Team Utility
Spear Shards (Templar)
Damages enemies in target area and disorients one enemy. Team activate for stamina boost. Skill Paths: More stamina restore and magicka or more damage.
Ice Fortress (Warden)
Creates an icy shell over your torso that buffs armour rating. Skill paths: unknown.
Mitigation/Tank CD
Sun Shield (Templar)
Creates a shield based on max health, aoe damages, shield strength increases based on number of enemies. Skill Paths: cheaper/increased shield or increased damage.
Crystallized Shield (Warden)
Summons a shield that buffs armor and makes you harder to kill. Skill paths: unknown.
Group protection buff and aoe damage. Skill paths: unknown.
When you swap around Sleet Storm and Ice Fortress, you see that the group utility got placed into the ultimate, while the self target damage mitigation is a part of the normal skill line, whereas templar is the other way around.
Moreover, if you use the Templar's Restoring Light ability: Rune Focus, you will perfectly align with the Warden template, or perhaps even in exceed it in group utility, as it is an aoe protection that can always be on.
To further my point:
Aedric Shield has two defensive (read: tank) passives:
Spear Wall: Increases amount of damage you can block against melee attacks. Balanced Warrior: Increases weapon damage and spell resistance.
Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
In a sense, yes, but Templars are not the only class that can be custom tailored to play all 3 roles with enough imagination: I've healed with a magsorc and tanked with a stamsorc as well.
But even with the Templar you need to go outside the class abilities to tank effectively and they're sorely lacking in the intangibles of tanking such as mob gathering and CCing which the DK has in spades.
The warden does seem to be the first one to have all the tanking and healing tools built-in. As to DPS I guess we'll see just how effective they make it and whether they give it a major brutality proc skill like every class except the Templar has.
But if they do what practically every MMO has ever done when they add a new class, I'm sure it'll be OP'd as all hell until the 1st or 2nd major patch post release.
You will have to go outside of the Warden trees to tank effectively. Your point?
Will you? You must know more about the Winter's Embrace skill line than I do then because it sure seems like a self contained tanking line with CCs, pulls and even a conjured shield. That plus the aggroing frost staff that uses magicka as the block resource sure looks to me like they're trying to build a magicka tank that doesn't need a sword and board to tank.
You just contradicted yourself. Frost Staff is a separate skill line (Destruction Staff) and you need the passive to get aggro with it. Case in point: every tank class needs weapon and armor skill lines to be effective. I could just as easily make a Nightblade, Frost Staff wielding, Heavy Armor wearing, tank that utilizes self-heals instead of mitigation similar to a Death Knight from World of Warcraft.
I have a lvl 7 templar ... just haven't felt like playing it. A lvl 30 Stam Sorc, a lvl 31 stam nightblade, 2 lvl 50 (vet 16) DKs (1 is vampire(pvp) and 1 is werewolf(tank)) and I am currently actively leveling a magic DK all destro fire for the Vet arena.
So you can see that my favorite class is the DK.
From what I have been reading, I do believe the Warden will become my new favorite class.
Vet 16? You do know that veteran levels were removed for champion points right? When was the last time you played?
Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
All classes can heal tank and DPS if built right.
In this sense, as it was explained to us, each line has its own focus. Templar kind of does too, but not to the extent of the Warden. Yes ALL classes can build for any role, but the Warden is the first one they consider truly built with 3 skill lines focused on each role.
Exactly. People like to make excuses based on the fact that you can play how you want as you level but that's simply not true @ endgame. Templars= healers DK=Tank Sorc/NB= DPS
That's wrong on so many levels. There are people who tanked vMoL with Templar tanks and Sorc tanks. Templar tanks are super strong in PvP and vet Dungeons HM. In fact, Templar tank is the strongest tank class in PvP, not DK tank. Nightblade's sap tank is also viable, you basically carry your team through vet dungeons HM with a sap tank even if your DDs suck, because you deal so much damage, while tanking, while healing at the same time. Nightblade tank is the best tank when you fight zergs. It synergizes well with the bombing playstyle: proximity detonation + Soul tether + sap essence: you can be the one who initiate, mess up the zergs and open an opportunity for your teammates to clear them all. Sorc tanks are super strong in PvP, with implosion, you can be tanky and have a high burst at the same time, just huricanne the enemies until implosion procs, then execute them, bye bye. As for healer, every class can heal in vet Dungeons HM. I healed through vICP HM with a sorc healer, which is the worst class for healing. For PvP, sorc healer is very strong in the sense that you have great sustain and very high mobility, you can zip and zap around the battlefield with Ball of Lightning, giving enemies a hard time if they try to focus on you, while keeping yourself alive with 3 wards, and healing your group, cleanse, popping up Restro ult/Barrier in case of danger.
Saying the Warden is the first true hybrid class means you really haven't been playing the game. For example, I played a NightBlade Healer, and a Nightblade Tank, I've played a sorceror tank, and I've played a Templar DPS.
ESO is one of those titles that actually allows players to setup their class any old way they want and it works. It's balanced enough that ALL CLASSES ARE HYBRIDS.
Yeah just forget about doing group content if you don't setup you class the way others want you to. The whole play your way thing is if you just plan to solo the game.
Nope, if you know what you are doing, you can heal/tank/dd with any class through any group content except for vet trials. Even vet dungeons HM. The point is, people expect a level of efficiency, lets say 20k DPS as a DD, holding aggro of the boss and 4 adds without dying as a tank, provide enough utilities while not letting anyone die as a healer (well, unless then stand on red poop, ofcourse). As long as your performance fulfills that level of efficiency, it doesn't matter how you build your characters.
Except it's not the first hybrid? Templar already has healer, tank, and dps lines and they can also be either ranged magic dps or stamina melee dps.
I mean the class sounds cool and I'm looking forward to playing it, but it's literally just a Druid-themed Templar.
All classes can heal tank and DPS if built right.
In this sense, as it was explained to us, each line has its own focus. Templar kind of does too, but not to the extent of the Warden. Yes ALL classes can build for any role, but the Warden is the first one they consider truly built with 3 skill lines focused on each role.
Exactly. People like to make excuses based on the fact that you can play how you want as you level but that's simply not true @ endgame. Templars= healers DK=Tank Sorc/NB= DPS
That's wrong on so many levels. There are people who tanked vMoL with Templar tanks and Sorc tanks. Templar tanks are super strong in PvP and vet Dungeons HM. In fact, Templar tank is the strongest tank class in PvP, not DK tank. Nightblade's sap tank is also viable, you basically carry your team through vet dungeons HM with a sap tank even if your DDs suck, because you deal so much damage, while tanking, while healing at the same time. Sorc tanks are super strong in PvP, with implosion, you can be tanky and have a high burst at the same time, just huricanne the enemies until implosion procs, then execute them, bye bye. Nightblade tank is the best tank when you fight zergs. It synergizes well with the bombing playstyle: proximity detonation + Soul tether + sap essence: you can be the one who initiate, mess up the zergs and open an opportunity for your teammates to clear them all. As for healer, every class can heal in vet Dungeons HM. I healed through vICP HM with a sorc healer, which is the worst class for healing. For PvP, sorc healer is very strong in the sense that you have great sustain and very high mobility, you can zip and zap around the battlefield with Ball of Lightning, giving enemies a hard time if they try to focus on you, while keeping yourself alive with 3 wards, and healing your group, cleanse, popping up Restro ult/Barrier in case of danger.
Although I'm also very fond of my sap tank he is just not a serious trials tank.
I know where he's coming from. Highly competitive trial guilds that shoot for high score flawless timed runs have the game down to a very narrow set of required criteria where tanks need to be DKs, healers Templars and stamina DPS is not wanted... and everyone must have a very specific set of BIS gear and skill bar set-up. That is the reality for those people. The thing is that this accounts for 0.1% of the playing population at best.
The mistake he makes and that a lot of others also make, is that he takes that very specific set of criteria from one type of esoteric in-game activity and applies it to the whole game as if it were also relevant to vMA, PVP, vet dungeon soloing, etc.
I've seen videos of people running very oddball 2-pet magicka sorc builds soloing the hardest vet dungeons for a challenge and doing it very well. All of that with gear and skills that would be laughed out of even casual raids.
His mistake is equating endgame with the highest end trial groups and thinking that the rigid requirements for that applies to the whole game... it simply doesn't for 99.9% of us who do have a lot of possible builds to work with.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
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You will have to go outside of the Warden trees to tank effectively. Your point?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
All classes can heal tank and DPS if built right.
In an open build system you need to understand what works and what doesn't, otherwise you gimp yourself, that's not a problem with the system, that's a problem with the player not putting in the time to learn how the system works.
If you want instant balance play something else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
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Templar has three distinct skill lines: Aedric Spear has tanking skills (charge/stun/damage mitigation/self heal/aoe) similar to traditional Paladin tanks, Dawn's Wrath has ranged DPS skills similar to traditional Cleric DPS roles, and Restoring Light is arguably the best AND only dedicated healing line. To me the Templar is a true HYBRID in that it offers three distinct roles: Ranged DPS, Melee DPS/Tank, and Healer. It is perhaps arguable that Templar is more comparable to a Shaman from World of Warcraft in that Aedric Spear is not as dedicated of a tanking skill line as the Dragon Knight skill line might be.
Hell, let's be unbiased and compare the leaked Warden kit for Winter's Embrace (Tank line) to Aedric Spear (Tank line), which I believe is the only skill-line that is a point of contention:
Damage/Sustain
Puncturing Strikes (Templar)
- Launch a relentless assault, striking enemies in front of you four times with your Aedric spear dealing Magic Damage with each strike. Skill paths: heals you or increases damage.
Polar Wind (Warden)- Blast friends with soothing healing over time or strike at foes with nasty frost damage. Skill paths: heals or damages?
CC/UtilityPiercing Javelin (Templar)
- Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength, stunning them and knocking them back. Skill paths: extra damage or longer stun.
Impaling Shards (Warden)- Moves enemies with a snare. Skill Paths: unknown.
Target Control/PositioningFocused Charge (Templar)
- Charge, interrupts and conditionally stuns. Skill Paths: aoe interrupt or always stuns + off balance.
Frozen Device (Warden)- Drops a rune that teleports enemies to you. Skill Paths: unknown.
Dissimilar: Mitigation/Team UtilitySpear Shards (Templar)
- Damages enemies in target area and disorients one enemy. Team activate for stamina boost. Skill Paths: More stamina restore and magicka or more damage.
Ice Fortress (Warden)- Creates an icy shell over your torso that buffs armour rating. Skill paths: unknown.
Mitigation/Tank CDSun Shield (Templar)
- Creates a shield based on max health, aoe damages, shield strength increases based on number of enemies. Skill Paths: cheaper/increased shield or increased damage.
Crystallized Shield (Warden)Ultimate
Radial Sweep (Templar)
- Aoe burst + DOT. Skill Paths: Self protection buff or increased conal damage.
Sleet Storm (Warden)When you swap around Sleet Storm and Ice Fortress, you see that the group utility got placed into the ultimate, while the self target damage mitigation is a part of the normal skill line, whereas templar is the other way around.
Moreover, if you use the Templar's Restoring Light ability: Rune Focus, you will perfectly align with the Warden template, or perhaps even in exceed it in group utility, as it is an aoe protection that can always be on.
To further my point:
Aedric Shield has two defensive (read: tank) passives:
Spear Wall: Increases amount of damage you can block against melee attacks.
Balanced Warrior: Increases weapon damage and spell resistance.
You just contradicted yourself. Frost Staff is a separate skill line (Destruction Staff) and you need the passive to get aggro with it. Case in point: every tank class needs weapon and armor skill lines to be effective. I could just as easily make a Nightblade, Frost Staff wielding, Heavy Armor wearing, tank that utilizes self-heals instead of mitigation similar to a Death Knight from World of Warcraft.
No offense, but you should just be happy the servers are still running. A new class is probably not coming anytime soon.
Vet 16? You do know that veteran levels were removed for champion points right? When was the last time you played?
That's wrong on so many levels. There are people who tanked vMoL with Templar tanks and Sorc tanks. Templar tanks are super strong in PvP and vet Dungeons HM. In fact, Templar tank is the strongest tank class in PvP, not DK tank. Nightblade's sap tank is also viable, you basically carry your team through vet dungeons HM with a sap tank even if your DDs suck, because you deal so much damage, while tanking, while healing at the same time. Nightblade tank is the best tank when you fight zergs. It synergizes well with the bombing playstyle: proximity detonation + Soul tether + sap essence: you can be the one who initiate, mess up the zergs and open an opportunity for your teammates to clear them all. Sorc tanks are super strong in PvP, with implosion, you can be tanky and have a high burst at the same time, just huricanne the enemies until implosion procs, then execute them, bye bye. As for healer, every class can heal in vet Dungeons HM. I healed through vICP HM with a sorc healer, which is the worst class for healing. For PvP, sorc healer is very strong in the sense that you have great sustain and very high mobility, you can zip and zap around the battlefield with Ball of Lightning, giving enemies a hard time if they try to focus on you, while keeping yourself alive with 3 wards, and healing your group, cleanse, popping up Restro ult/Barrier in case of danger.
Nope, if you know what you are doing, you can heal/tank/dd with any class through any group content except for vet trials. Even vet dungeons HM. The point is, people expect a level of efficiency, lets say 20k DPS as a DD, holding aggro of the boss and 4 adds without dying as a tank, provide enough utilities while not letting anyone die as a healer (well, unless then stand on red poop, ofcourse). As long as your performance fulfills that level of efficiency, it doesn't matter how you build your characters.
I know where he's coming from. Highly competitive trial guilds that shoot for high score flawless timed runs have the game down to a very narrow set of required criteria where tanks need to be DKs, healers Templars and stamina DPS is not wanted... and everyone must have a very specific set of BIS gear and skill bar set-up. That is the reality for those people. The thing is that this accounts for 0.1% of the playing population at best.
The mistake he makes and that a lot of others also make, is that he takes that very specific set of criteria from one type of esoteric in-game activity and applies it to the whole game as if it were also relevant to vMA, PVP, vet dungeon soloing, etc.
I've seen videos of people running very oddball 2-pet magicka sorc builds soloing the hardest vet dungeons for a challenge and doing it very well. All of that with gear and skills that would be laughed out of even casual raids.
His mistake is equating endgame with the highest end trial groups and thinking that the rigid requirements for that applies to the whole game... it simply doesn't for 99.9% of us who do have a lot of possible builds to work with.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED