Chronciles of Elyria - Not Pay to Win

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  • fodell54fodell54 Member RarePosts: 859
    It's not P2W it's Pay to GM.
  • simon155simon155 CamberleyMember UncommonPosts: 51
    fodell54 said:
    It's not P2W it's Pay to GM.
    Epic fail reading. You should frame this and hang in on the wall.

    When you're done follow the link and try to read it this time.
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIMember RarePosts: 2,902
    I have - have you?

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • simon155simon155 CamberleyMember UncommonPosts: 51
    botrytis said:
    I have - have you?
    Let's try again, shall we...

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14989/equity-vs-fairness?page=9

    ... and read on from post #133 from the actual source you'll start to correct the misinformation.


  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ok, so let's say that there is no cash shop or anything here. I would be well within my rights to spend $1000 per day to hire myself an army of 100 Chinese players to watch over my kingdom on a daily basis, 24/7, correct? So what does that mean? 
    You are free to do all you like, cheating, stealing or even murder as long as you don't get caught.
    We are human beings and we live with the consequences of our actions, so if you want to be a murderer I can't stop you, but I can punish you if I find out. That's how it works.

    What is not fine though, it is for the Developers making cheating or cutting corners, legal.
    A Developer that legalize cheating, it's like a Government legalizing Stealing, and a Developer (or Government) that does that, loses my respect, and should lose yours too.
    Post edited by ste2000 on

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    Noxeron said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    simon155 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:
    simon155 said:
    And I'd say it's NOT P2W for the following reasons:

    1. You can lose anything you buy to another player, even an NPC potentially, with nothing left to show for your money.

    Seriously?

    First of all, you can't win in a MMO, so there is no MMO which is literally P2W.
    The term Pay to Win is just a convenient term and it is not meant to be taken literally.
    A loose translation for it would be "Pay to have an advantage over other players" but as you can see it doesn't sound as good, so the community forged the "P2W" terms which is more convenient to use in discussions and generally quickly understandable.


    Having establish that.
    It looks like CoE is P2W as having a clear advantage over players is like cheating.
    Buying lands, kingship, huge head start time, it makes it unfair on other players that don't have the same financial power as you do, and conveys the message that rich people are better than you, just like it happens in real life, but in a game I really don't want to see that.
    It doesn't matter that your incompetence as a player make you lose that advantage that you bought, that's irrelevant, that only confirm you should not play games if nothing else, and invest the money in something you are really good at....and leave games to gamers.


    Ok, so let's say that there is no cash shop or anything here. I would be well within my rights to spend $1000 per day to hire myself an army of 100 Chinese players to watch over my kingdom on a daily basis, 24/7, correct? So what does that mean? 
    The list of MMOs that you couldn't do that in would be very small indeed.

    Perhaps we'll see some gold farmer attempting to do exactly that. Unlike many MMOs, the fact that you can lose it will make it all the more rewarding if a gold seller does get found. The inevitable consequence is that potentially entire kingdoms will raise against them, and you'll get to witness one of the first amusing MMO scenes unfold where a gold seller gets ripped off and cleaned out by an armed player base.


    My point exactly. I mean there was an article here today that talked about some guy spending $1 million in Game of War. So, yeah, technically there could be someone out there interested in controlling the game. However, the question is, realistically, is this something that people would be concerned with? I don't see people talk about this scenario at ALL! Yet people seem to think that things like 3-week head starts are game-breaking advantages. Again, I think people really just need to put things in perspective and think realistically. 
    As I see it: paying people to play the game for you, is not the same thing as paying the game to give you an advantage (Whatever that advantage may be).

    I agree, the advantage you buy in game is not nearly as effective as buying a person to play for you. 

    Also, I would contend that PLAYERS have killed more games speculating about P2W than the ACTUAL P2W mechanics themselves. There have, literally, been no games where you could shift the balance of power in a game with a cash shop purchase. Similarly, there are no games, I'm aware of, where the person who is "Winning" is the person who has spent the most in the game. It's all fear mongering and propaganda. We have enough games out there now which people claimed to have been P2W and zero evidence that P2W is even a real thing. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    edited December 2016
    ste2000 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ok, so let's say that there is no cash shop or anything here. I would be well within my rights to spend $1000 per day to hire myself an army of 100 Chinese players to watch over my kingdom on a daily basis, 24/7, correct? So what does that mean? 
    You are free to do all you like, cheating, stealing or even murder as long as you don't get caught.
    We are human beings and we live with the consequences of our actions, so if you want to be a murderer I can't stop you, but I can punish you if I find out. That's how it works.

    What is not fine though, it is for the Developers making cheating or cutting corners, legal.
    A Developer that legalize cheating, it's like a Government legalizing Stealing, and a Developer (or Government) that does that, loses my respect, and should lose yours too.

    So are you saying that it's illegal for me to hire people to protect me in-game? Please, please! I would love for you to point to me where that rule is stated. I guarantee it isn't. It might be against your moral code or your bank code, but someone would be well within their right to do it. It would be no different than someone buying every car on earth and then reselling them at double the price, lol. 

    Tell me what your REALISTIC concerns are. I can hear what people are saying about advantages being unfair, but REALISTICALLY, the advantages they're talking about can easily be overcome in time, and not even a large amount of time. In the real world, you'll never have the opportunity to make up those gaps in power, so take advantage of it in a game, it might be the only place where you have any chance at actually being a King. 
    Post edited by CrazKanuk on

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,274
    edited December 2016
    There is a definite advantage to having a head start.

    I know several organizations (because calling them guilds or clans is a misnomer) which will take full advantage and crush all in their path, with extreme efficiency.
    Post edited by Kyleran on

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:

    So are you saying that it's illegal for me to hire people to protect me in-game? Please, please! I would love for you to point to me where that rule is stated.
    If you pay in-game money obviously not (it's emerging game-play) if you pay real money, yes.
    If you use third party help (either Bots or Gold Farmers) to get an advantage over other players, it's cheating, because you are bypassing game content thanks to your personal wealth rather than your gaming skills.
    Paying a Chinese army to play the game for you though it is very difficult to police, so you might actually get away with it.
    That doesn't mean it's right or that it should be encouraged by the Developer itself.
    Post edited by ste2000 on

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,742
    I agree there's no winning in an MMO other than being in control of lands and territories.  Like Eve in which a large guild controls a large section of space, or games like AA when you could get large amounts of land.  Do they have an advantage over other players, yes.  

    I think the not being P2W thing does not eliminate it as not being P2W because it 'might' be easily lost.  Anyone who spends a lot of money doesn't expect to easily lose their title and their lands, unless they're 12 and their parents paid for it.  They have a plan which they will probably developed during alpha and beta before the game launches so they will know exactly how to keep what they bought and make it grow.  Look at AA, now they're redoing their servers because they discovered a few players and guilds grabbing up a lot of land doesn't create a level playing field for everyone, and the ones who had lots of lands didn't easily lose it.

    Just don't tell me a King with lots of friends and lots of land in which he has control over or rotates his title through guild member will be on the same footing as a peasant just starting out with little to nothing.  

    "Change is the only constant."

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    ste2000 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:

    So are you saying that it's illegal for me to hire people to protect me in-game? Please, please! I would love for you to point to me where that rule is stated.
    If you pay in-game money obviously not (it's emerging game-play) if you pay real money, yes.
    If you use third party help (either Bots or Gold Farmers) to get an advantage over other players, it's cheating, because you are bypassing game content thanks to your personal wealth rather than your gaming skills.
    Paying a Chinese army to play the game for you though it is very difficult to police, so you might actually get away with it.
    That doesn't mean it's right or that it should be encouraged by the Developer itself.

    So if I happen to have 100 friends, and I asked them to play 24/7 and protect me, that would be ok? Wow, that's a pretty hefty double standard. 

    All I'm illustrating here is that there is a cognitive bias here that people believe that all this bad shit is going on, but there is, literally, zero factual evidence to support that, said, P2W mechanics have ever, in the history of gaming, benefited anyone. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:


    So if I happen to have 100 friends, and I asked them to play 24/7 and protect me, that would be ok? Wow, that's a pretty hefty double standard. 

    Stop twisting the argument, you are beating a dead horse.
    It's paying money to get any kind of advantage that it's wrong.
    I hope it's clear now.

    If you can convince 100 friends to be your slaves, kudos to you....you deserve to be a King.
    You are using your personal skills, not your wallet.
    That's totally acceptable and encouraged.
    Post edited by ste2000 on

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAMember RarePosts: 1,816
    Its not even a game yet and is unlikely to become one. So all this talk is the same old same old that every game that is obviously pay to win and sells everything under the sun JUST to maybe get made goes through.

    There hasnt been an indy game proposed that didnt try and sell something for real money that gave a person an advantage. The fact that the only relevant indy game to be released to date is Elite Dangerous says all you need to know of the likelihood {no matter what the business model} of these indy games even getting released, let alone whether they will be pay to win or not.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    ste2000 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:


    So if I happen to have 100 friends, and I asked them to play 24/7 and protect me, that would be ok? Wow, that's a pretty hefty double standard. 

    Stop twisting the argument, you are beating a dead horse.
    It's paying money to get any kind of advantage that it's wrong.
    I hope it's clear now.

    If you can convince 100 friends to be your slaves, kudos to you....you deserve to be a King.
    You are using your personal skills, not your wallet.
    That's totally acceptable and encouraged.


    Ok, so what if I paid 100 people to be my friends and, as my friend, they need to protect me in the game? 

    Again, I can understand, morally, what you're saying. However, paying real money for advantages in games exists in nearly every single MMORPG on the market today. Some of it is black market stuff that actually DOES violate the TOS, other is very grey market stuff and doesn't directly violate the TOS. If you want to live in a bubble and believe that this stuff isn't already happening all around you, I'm fine with that, I'll leave you in a bubble. However, if you want to live in reality, welcome to it! 


    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:


    Ok, so what if I paid 100 people to be my friends and, as my friend, they need to protect me in the game? 


    I already answered that:

    ste2000 said:
    If you pay in-game money obviously not (it's emerging game-play) if you pay real money, yes.
    If you use third party help (either Bots or Gold Farmers) to get an advantage over other players, it's cheating, because you are bypassing game content thanks to your personal wealth rather than your gaming skills.
    Paying a Chinese army to play the game for you though it is very difficult to police, so you might actually get away with it.
    That doesn't mean it's right or that it should be encouraged by the Developer itself.

    Just swap the word "Chines Army" with "Your Frriends", it's still the same scenario.
    You most probably get away with it, but that's beside the point.
    The point is that Developers should not encourage this sort of behavior, which is what this topic is about.

    The horse is dead, leave him alone please.

    Post edited by ste2000 on

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,744
    ste2000 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    ste2000 said:


    Ok, so what if I paid 100 people to be my friends and, as my friend, they need to protect me in the game? 


    I already answered that:

    ste2000 said:
    If you pay in-game money obviously not (it's emerging game-play) if you pay real money, yes.
    If you use third party help (either Bots or Gold Farmers) to get an advantage over other players, it's cheating, because you are bypassing game content thanks to your personal wealth rather than your gaming skills.
    Paying a Chinese army to play the game for you though it is very difficult to police, so you might actually get away with it.
    That doesn't mean it's right or that it should be encouraged by the Developer itself.

    Just swap the word "Chines Army" with "Your Frriends", it's still the same scenario.
    You most probably get away with it, but that's beside the point.
    The point is that Developers should not encourage this sort of behavior, which is what this topic is about.

    The horse is dead, leave him alone please.


    I know that's what this topic is about and that's the point of it. I was just trying to illustrate that there are a lot of ways that people COULD effectively control a game. Whether or not that is effective or not remains to be seen.

    For instance, many would believe that I'm very lucky because I have 4 boys to help me shovel snow. However, the reality is that that they are little or no help and, actually, end up being a liability when I CAN get them to help. So it's much more about the implementation of features than the hypotheticals. Hypothetically, I could run my own snow removal business. Realistically, I'm lucky to be able to keep up with my own driveway. Problem with crowdfunding is that the success or failure of projects can hinge on hypotheticals, since nothing really exists yet. Unfortunately, people will tend to exaggerate their understanding of a particular situation and blow stuff out of proportion. There are many examples of this, BDO being the most recent example. The best thing people can do, if they are THAT concerned with it, is wait until the product is done and leave their money in their pockets. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,162
    My thoughts are that it is CLEARLY P2W for the following reasons:


    1. Buy yourself up to a kingship (or multiple kingships in at least 1 case of a guy who spent 40k)
    2. Buy yourself a 3 month no wipe head start in a PvP territory control game with looting
    3. Use real money to buy IP
    4. Use IP to buy items such as:
    • land
    • buildings
    • resources (both common and uncommon)
    • mounts
    • siege weapons

    Feel free to have a different opinion but to me this is clearly one of the most over the top P2W games I have seen.

    You had me at #1

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Not In ESOMember EpicPosts: 2,229
    Kyleran said:
    There is a definite advantage to having a head start.

    I know several organizations (because calling them guilds or clans is a misnomer) which will take full advantage and crush all in their path, with extreme efficiency.
    Oh bullshit. Like that's ever happened before in any other MMO type game ... with giant corps ... and space ships ... Uh I'm just gonna back out of this conversation now. :p

    "To be frank, I think his world had vanished long before he ever entered it, but I will say: He certainly sustained the illusion with a marvelous grace!"



  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,437
    Anyone else remember the tactics the people behind Pathfinder Online tried to pull when they were getting criticized? This looks familiar...
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,600
    simon155 said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Buying souls over and over till you get one that gives you the advantage you are looking for. IMO that can be seen as P2W. When your money gives you an advantage over the next guy in combat I am not sure what else to call that.
    Again, I'm guessing this is an assumption or partial information that's given you that conclusion.

    Souls may have different "stats".

    You should start here: http://chroniclesofelyria.gamepedia.com/Souls
    ...and then here: https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/323/Design-Journal-1--Introduction-to-Souls

    Let's imagine a single skill. During your life, the decisions you make and the work you put into developing that skill may have a lasting effect on your soul. Starting with a soul with a greater affinity for something, simply doesn't make you a "master" at it or break the game. During your life, some choices will increase your ability with a skill. You might commit criminal deeds and grief people, only be be thrown in prison. There, time will pass instantly, but having "served" your time, your character will age, and as you've been unable to train your skills in prison, they will atrophy. You might work on alternate skills when you come out.

    You can effectively finish a life with a lower affinity for a skill than you started. It all depends on how you play it. Min/Maxing may fit with some games, but Elyria is a great deal more "open plan" than most games. You might assume in a boring run of the mill MMO that maxing a "swordfighting" skill will make you better than everyone else.

    In Elyria, it's not the some environment at all. Obtaining better crafted gear may have an impact. Obtaining new skills may have an impact. Making allies certainly will. Improving your ability to survive and thrive will have an impact, increasing the time you can dedicate to your craft. Some players intend to be law breakers. Others intend to get rich from commissions, hunting such people down for profit.

    It's very unlikely "cookie cutters" will be commonplace in Elyria. Even the discovery system is wildly complex. Events in the world may randomly present opportunities for discovery to those in the right place at the right time. Having goods from one professions and working on another might yield a discovery. Experimentation and being different are two factors most likely to reward players.




    But on top of skills you learn and develop you can roll the dice and get a soul that has an affinity to magic, swords, crafting. So if I role 15-20 souls till I get one that gives me a 5% better skills at swords. I now walk into the world with a combat advantage most will not have. So now the next guy that wants to be a tank is passed by, by the guild because the guy with 5% advantage using swords, hold aggro way better. Or makes a better DPSers so for the lifetime of that soul is sought after. I could see elitist guilds saying, need not apply unless you have an affinity to something. Unless you can afford to buy tones of souls and the time to figure out what their affinity is. You could be passed by. Part that bugs me most, this system is tied into their payment model.   



  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Considering this game has practically no chance of being delivered with the features promised, or as anything more than a stripped down, perpetual early access game if it releases at all, there is no need to get excited.

    This game clearly does not have the funding to get into anything like reasonable release shape.

    So people should relax and worry about the P2W aspects when there is actually a game.


    (And yes, this game does seem to be going the way of Pathfinder Online.)

  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,162
    Mean while in reality paying $40k to get king and land and all the other advantages is clearly pay 2 win.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,812
    edited December 2016
    I think whether or not you consider Chronicles of Elyria pay-to-win depends on what your own personal goals are in the game as well as one's own definition of the term "pay-to-win".  And I see merit on both sides of the argument in this thread.  

    For myself, I find the idea of starting a game where the Varion Wrynn's of the world are actual players instead of boring, scripted NPCs to be exciting.  It's not something I've experienced before and I look forward to seeing what that's like.  Now, I don't myself desire to be a King or any other territorial ruler so from my perspective it's not a pay-to-win scenario.  But I don't discount those who feel that it is.  If being King would be your goal then the inequity of other's paying real money to start there when you can only afford to start as a peasant yourself ... I can see how that would be off-putting.  However, don't you think it would mean so much more if you were to rise from being a peasant to being King all on your own?  That sounds like it could be a fantastic journey!
    Post edited by SedrynTyros on
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,274
    Kyleran said:
    There is a definite advantage to having a head start.

    I know several organizations (because calling them guilds or clans is a misnomer) which will take full advantage and crush all in their path, with extreme efficiency.
    Oh bullshit. Like that's ever happened before in any other MMO type game ... with giant corps ... and space ships ... Uh I'm just gonna back out of this conversation now. :p
    Well its true, they will probably crush regardless, but no need to give them a 3 month headstart.

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,437
    I think whether or not you consider Chronicles of Elyria pay-to-win depends on what your own personal goals are in the game as well as one's own definition of the term "pay-to-win".  And I see merit on both sides of the argument in this thread.  

    For myself, I find the idea of starting a game where the Varion Wrynn's of the world are actual players instead of boring, scripted NPCs to be exciting.  It's not something I've experienced before and I look forward to seeing what that's like.  Now, I don't myself desire to be a King or any other territorial ruler so from my perspective it's not a pay-to-win scenario.  But I don't discount those who feel that it is.  If being King would be your goal then the inequity of other's paying real money to start there when you can only afford to start as a peasant yourself ... I can see how that would be off-putting.  However, don't you think it would mean so much more if you were to rise from being a peasant to being King all on your own?  That sounds like it could be a fantastic journey!
    The problem with the 'goal' logic is that people's goals eventually change as they play. When (not if) that happens, you're only left with 3 options: pay up, quit, suck up and change your mind back to the previous.
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