Back from Citizencon and WTF?

VorpalChicken28

OK I just arrived back in the UK, I was super lucky (or so I thought) to be in the US on business and so added a couple of extra days onto my trip so I could go to CitizenCon.

You know I don't think I can actually coherently express how disappointed I was with it, so so many things are wrong here, they are still talking alpha builds into 2017, SQ42 seems to be gone into some kind of development hell.

Meh if I can even be bothered I'll post more when I've had some sleep.

Hi to Mike and Carl fellow MMORPG lurkers I ran into and had drinks with later, you guy's were right to start thinking about refunds.

laxie

After a month long exchange with the CIG customer department, I considered my money gone. Even though I did my best to be polite, there was no interest for a refund from their end. I don't want to pursue this legally, so that's that.

For what it's worth, the game is progressing. I believe with what they showed, they are now able to put together some bare-bones version of SQ42. The single-player experience can get away with being heavily scripted. The online universe will be much more of a challenge - there's not that much in place to generate missions procedurally. Not much talk of procedural AI being far in development either.

It might take several additional years to get a bare-bones version of PU with a core gameplay loop. By that I mean flavour NPCs in space stations, missions that send you to different places on a planet each time, along with some basic economy/trading. Each one of those three components might take a year each.

I pledged 200$ fairly early on - around when the hangar module was first released. It was a risky decision back then, but perhaps still sensible on some level. The game development showed a lot of promise back then. The dogfight module was released shortly after and I was really excited about the development trajectory.

Today, I'd not pledge anything beyond the starter package. The expectation of delivery within a reasonable time-frame just isn't there. People who are still buying all the new ships must be out of touch with reality. Unless they are genuinely happy to support the project as a vision, as opposed to a product on the near horizon.

Kefo

laxie said:

After a month long exchange with the CIG customer department, I considered my money gone. Even though I did my best to be polite, there was no interest for a refund from their end. I don't want to pursue this legally, so that's that.

For what it's worth, the game is progressing. I believe with what they showed, they are now able to put together some bare-bones version of SQ42. The single-player experience can get away with being heavily scripted. The online universe will be much more of a challenge - there's not that much in place to generate missions procedurally. Not much talk of procedural AI being far in development either.

It might take several additional years to get a bare-bones version of PU with a core gameplay loop. By that I mean flavour NPCs in space stations, missions that send you to different places on a planet each time, along with some basic economy/trading. Each one of those three components might take a year each.

I pledged 200$ fairly early on - around when the hangar module was first released. It was a risky decision back then, but perhaps still sensible on some level. The game development showed a lot of promise back then. The dogfight module was released shortly after and I was really excited about the development trajectory.

Today, I'd not pledge anything beyond the starter package. The expectation of delivery within a reasonable time-frame just isn't there. People who are still buying all the new ships must be out of touch with reality. Unless they are genuinely happy to support the project as a vision, as opposed to a product on the near horizon.

You need to start getting firm with them. Quote the TOS you pledged with, start telling CIG you will contact the BBB and the state attorneys office to file a compliant with and just keep hammering them with their own TOS. They will give you that refund eventually

SavageHorizon

But all is well. 

Have Fun. 

WalkinGlenn

The highlight of the stream for me was the extremely cringe and SHAMELESS commercial for a ship sale bout an hour and a half in.  Someone actually shouted out "shame on you" as Roberts hits the stage. He tries to save face to the poor applause and the comment.

https://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen/v/94010970?t=01h37m35s

flizzer

And yet the show goes on!

goboygo

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

Kefo

goboygo said:

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order

FrodoFragins

Every event gets less and less enthusiasm from the fans and devs.  Kind of interesting to watch from the outside.

goboygo

Kefo said:

goboygo said:

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order

Doesn't change the reality of what backing a game through pledging means.  Backing a kickstater is high risk pre-ordering a game is not a high risk proposition.

I don't need a piece of paper or a tax law definition to know and understand the difference in a real world context.  I live in reality not the world of academia.

And history has already proven that backing a computer game through fundraising its development cycle is a high stacks endeavor.  And listening to people cry about it later is humorous to me.

Kefo

goboygo said:

Kefo said:

goboygo said:

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order

Doesn't change the reality of what backing a game through pledging means.  Backing a kickstater is high risk pre-ordering a game is not a high risk proposition.

I don't need a piece of paper or a tax law definition to know and understand the difference in a real world context.  I live in reality not the world of academia.

And history has already proven that backing a computer game through fundraising its development cycle is a high stacks endeavor.  And listening to people cry about it later is humorous to me.

just pointing it out since its easier to get a refund for whoever looking for one since they can easily prove its a pre-order

Octagon7711

goboygo said:

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

What's the difference?

goboygo

Octagon7711 said:

goboygo said:

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

What's the difference?

Do both, try to get your money back for each transaction and get back to me with the results.   But by then you will have your answer.

mr1602

goboygo said:

Kefo said:

goboygo said:

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order

Doesn't change the reality of what backing a game through pledging means.  Backing a kickstater is high risk pre-ordering a game is not a high risk proposition.

I don't need a piece of paper or a tax law definition to know and understand the difference in a real world context.  I live in reality not the world of academia.

And history has already proven that backing a computer game through fundraising its development cycle is a high stacks endeavor.  And listening to people cry about it later is humorous to me.

I'd love to live in your imaginary world where tax law definitions have no meaning. Refunds are possible and with the DCBA and the Attorney General looking at CIG, not too hard to get.

Erillion

mr1602 said:

I'd love to live in your imaginary world where tax law definitions have no meaning. Refunds are possible and with the DCBA and the Attorney General looking at CIG, not too hard to get.

CIG has given refunds ever since 2013 ... voluntarily. Refunds were not hard to get back then (they wanted to know why you want a refund)  and neither are they hard to get now if you do not treat the Customer Service people like shit.


Have fun

rpmcmurphy

They have given refunds after insane pressure and threats, it's taken people months to get their refund, I would hardly call that acting voluntarily. They also write really stupid crap trying to justify their progress, guilt trip or dissuade people by claiming getting a refund is like taking paychecks back from employees etc.

Erillion

rpmcmurphy said:

They have given refunds after insane pressure and threats, it's taken people months to get their refund, I would hardly call that acting voluntarily. They also write really stupid crap trying to justify their progress, guilt trip or dissuade people by claiming getting a refund is like taking paychecks back from employees etc.

I personally know of a case of a refund in my circle of friends from 2014 where no "insane pressure or threats" were involved or necessary. CIG told my friend to reconsider and asked for the reason for the refund request. The reason was given in a second mail  (--> sudden unexpected unemployment) and the refund was processed positively and without a fuss.

Do not treat CS people like shit and they will be nice and helpful. Do not spend hundreds of playtime hours in a game you claim to "not like" .... and then expect a refund.


Have fun

Jermzy

Erillion said:

rpmcmurphy said:

They have given refunds after insane pressure and threats, it's taken people months to get their refund, I would hardly call that acting voluntarily. They also write really stupid crap trying to justify their progress, guilt trip or dissuade people by claiming getting a refund is like taking paychecks back from employees etc.

I personally know of a case of a refund in my circle of friends from 2014 where no "insane pressure or threats" were involved or necessary. CIG told my friend to reconsider and asked for the reason for the refund request. The reason was given in a second mail  (--> sudden unexpected unemployment) and the refund was processed positively and without a fuss.

Do not treat CS people like shit and they will be nice and helpful. Do not spend hundreds of playtime hours in a game you claim to "not like" .... and then expect a refund.


Have fun

I would love to see that argument with the BBB.  He treated us like shit on the phone so we gave him a hard time with his refund.......

Erillion

Jermzy said:

I would love to see that argument with the BBB.  He treated us like shit on the phone so we gave him a hard time with his refund.......

If you every worked in CS or complaint management ...

you are absolutely allowed to end a call if the customer just curses and uses abusive language. Which one can verify as the calls are usually taped ("for quality management purposes").

So yes .... you do not have to take shit from a customer .... and that is something an ombudsman of a federal authority DOES understand.


Have fun 

filmoret

WalkinGlenn said:

The highlight of the stream for me was the extremely cringe and SHAMELESS commercial for a ship sale bout an hour and a half in.  Someone actually shouted out "shame on you" as Roberts hits the stage. He tries to save face to the poor applause and the comment.

https://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen/v/94010970?t=01h37m35s

LOL yea you can hear someone say shame on you.

filmoret

They are shooting themselves in the foot and continue to do so.  Naturally people aren't going to be happy with a company that makes you believe that Star Marine will launch in 3-5 weeks or SQ42 is on course to launch in 2016.  They really need to change how they are doing business.  It makes them look shady and bad.

laserit

Kefo said:

goboygo said:

No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.

Its not a pre-order for a game.

Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order

A lot of goods and service taxes around the globe, in Canada you would have to pay tax. I don't think we can call Crowdfunding a non-profit or a registered charity. I don't believe crowdfunding for a consumer product would meet the criteria.

VorpalChicken28

Erillion said:

Jermzy said:

I would love to see that argument with the BBB.  He treated us like shit on the phone so we gave him a hard time with his refund.......

If you every worked in CS or complaint management ...

you are absolutely allowed to end a call if the customer just curses and uses abusive language. Which one can verify as the calls are usually taped ("for quality management purposes").

So yes .... you do not have to take shit from a customer .... and that is something an ombudsman of a federal authority DOES understand.


Have fun 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it totally depends on your company, speaking as an ex-call center manager I can tell you without a hesitation that some companies will not allow staff to hang up on a customer just because of bad language, sometimes even abusive language.

Only time's that companies will universally allow call termination is when it's threatening language.

As for taped call's, contrary to folk law, they are infact used for training purposes and keeping call quality at the level that the call center requires. And generally not all calls are recorded (although that might be differant now with storage being so much cheaper to do)

Turrican187

vorpal28 said:

Erillion said:

Jermzy said:

I would love to see that argument with the BBB.  He treated us like shit on the phone so we gave him a hard time with his refund.......

If you every worked in CS or complaint management ...

you are absolutely allowed to end a call if the customer just curses and uses abusive language. Which one can verify as the calls are usually taped ("for quality management purposes").

So yes .... you do not have to take shit from a customer .... and that is something an ombudsman of a federal authority DOES understand.


Have fun 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it totally depends on your company, speaking as an ex-call center manager I can tell you without a hesitation that some companies will not allow staff to hang up on a customer just because of bad language, sometimes even abusive language.

Only time's that companies will universally allow call termination is when it's threatening language.

As for taped call's, contrary to folk law, they are infact used for training purposes and keeping call quality at the level that the call center requires. And generally not all calls are recorded (although that might be differant now with storage being so much cheaper to do)

Either way - if you hear the "for training" stuff in a call, this call may not used in courts at all.

spankybus

Damn, dude. If i was at Cit-Con from UK, I'd be pissed. 

Without a doubt, the worst showing they have ever had at CitizenCon. 

Ironically, if they skipped GamesCon and showed us all of that at CitizenCon, plus the new planetary tech, people would be screaming for joy lol Perception is a very powerful thing.

MaxBacon

vorpal28 said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it totally depends on your company, speaking as an ex-call center manager I can tell you without a hesitation that some companies will not allow staff to hang up on a customer just because of bad language, sometimes even abusive language.

This was made illegal on our country. There was a scandal of suicides and mental breakdowns high rates on employees of  call centers and they looked at what these people are submitted into, well, total submission. These days if you get heated you are usually asked to calm down, if not they'll hang the call.

spankybus said:

Ironically, if they skipped GamesCon and showed us all of that at CitizenCon, plus the new planetary tech, people would be screaming for joy lol Perception is a very powerful thing.

Yeah, GC originally was not really even to have a presentation; they changed their minds. As for Citcon, if SQ42 had been shown as they had said it would, the story would have been different.