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$900k is Not Enough, $2-3M More Needed to Complete the Game - Chronicles of Elyria News

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    Slapshot1188 says " NO SHIT SHERLOCK"


    Just wait until the inevitable announcement that they can't get all the promised features in the unreasonable timeframe...

    All the apologists who bashed everyone who pointed out the obvious should really be looking in the mirror right now.

    They have raised 1/4 of the funds they claim they want... but are going to launch their no wipe headstart 1 year from now. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

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  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    People are so dumb and fanatical, I can't even call developers who do this greedy anymore.

    I feel like I should get a couple screenshots, fly throughs and say "yes" to everything people ask about my game so I can get in on some of that action.

    "Does it have OWPVP?"
    Yes
    "I hate OWPVP can you remove it?"
    Yes
    "Is it photorealistic?"
    Yes
    "Is it stylized?"
    Yes
    "Will there be crafting?"
    Yes
    "Can I multibox?"
    Yes
    "Will you ban multi-boxers?"
    Yes
    "Is it action combat or tab-target?"
    Yes

    image
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    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    edited September 2016
    This wonderful nugget should make everyone feel better and encourage people to up their pledges:

    Finally, 'No refund' brings with it a stigma of additional risk. But of course, we'll do just as our competitors are doing. In the event that Soulbound Studios is, for some reason, unable to complete development due to a lack of resources, we'll make available our balance sheet so backers can see how the money was spent.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Slapshot1188 says " NO SHIT SHERLOCK"


    Just wait until the inevitable announcement that they can't get all the promised features in the unreasonable timeframe...

    All the apologists who bashed everyone who pointed out the obvious should really be looking in the mirror right now.

    They have raised 1/4 of the funds they claim they want... but are going to launch their no wipe headstart 1 year from now. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.
    I was waiting for you all day to find this thread.  You never disappoint.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    edited September 2016
    mmoguy43 said:
    Sovrath said:
    Vesavius said:


    It might not be edgy or hip to like crowdfunding right now, but without it this genre is dead man walking.
    And "that's the thing" or why this sort of irks me ... every time there is a misstep, every time a small team mmo "messes up" or is not clear or can't deliver is another reason for people to distrust kickstarted projects.

    And this seems to be mostly an "mmo" issue.
    Everyone should absolutely be skeptical about crowdfunding an MMO. But yes, that doesn't mean that we should all abandon crowdfunding of games entirely.

    Yeah, I haven't funded a MMORPG yet, but that's mainly because none have offered the combination of what I am looking for and a live revenue model I can trust. Iam very impressed with Pantheon right now though, so that looks likely for me in the near future.

    TBH, I find cash shops and selling ships/ houses far more objectionable than the concept of crowdfunding.

    In general, I am very ok with the notion of paying to support what I want to see. It's the only way right now the market will ever produce the games that I want to see. Sadly.
  • Dagon13Dagon13 Member UncommonPosts: 566
    Kyleran said:

    Sovrath said:

    I'm really hating these companies ...



    "It likely doesn't surprise anyone, but between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever."



    Here's a thought, figure this out BEFORE you kickstarter



    This isn't that hard, we forecast costs all the time.




    Sovrath said:

    I'm really hating these companies ...



    "It likely doesn't surprise anyone, but between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever."



    Here's a thought, figure this out BEFORE you kickstarter



    This isn't that hard, we forecast costs all the time.



    They have known all along, plan has always been to fund and build in successive rounds, likely the same with release, look for a MVP approach that is very lean in features.

    They learn from watching how others do it.
    Yeah, I'm confused. Why are people reacting to this like it's some sort of news that affirms a failing project?  I wasn't aware of the project on day one but I thought there was very early information that stated the Kickstarter was always intended as a bridge to larger funding?  Did I dream that up or did I just use common sense?
  • ITPalgITPalg Member UncommonPosts: 314

    brihtwulf said:

    Since when did gamers start funding indie companies with millions of dollars for a game before it's done? Oh wait, since Star Citizen. This is stupid, and I have no intention on helping supply them with MILLIONS to complete their indie MMO. That's ridiculous.



    I thought Shroud of the Avatar was the first MMOG to be funded over a million on KS.

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  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    Nyctelios said:
    Well, I think this is the first time on this forum I can safely say literally told you so.
    was also telling this before, was also telling before archeage releases this was p2win and was also telling peoples that black desert online was p2win before releases.

    some peoples never listen to these warning

    now im telling this : this game will never deliver or releases, that a scam

    in 3 years we will know if im right... because they will push back the dates alot more too, and they will ask for money more and more before too.

    you will maybe get a games after many years but this will be nothing like they claim.....

    im telling you this right now !!

  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    edited September 2016
    was talking with a friends some months ago about hire 2-3 well know peoples for let say 40k

    put everything everyone want for their dream mmorpg, make some concept, video and editing

    do a kickstarter... ask for a realy low money let say 70k or 80k

    then hype it like mad, releases features, make peoples dream

    ask for more money, make pleages ( castles, features you will have when we releases the games )

    gain alot more money each months, releases stuft peoples buy before we will releases ect.

    keep the games in beta for years, never realy releases, get 1millions and go away in the sun

    if im not wrong they are not realy any law curently for something like that ? many dev go away with it, or they just releases a shitty games version after 4-5 years when you stop make profit with hyping it...

    that not againts the law promise features in games but never releases them either right ?
    ( i mean they all do it )

    how about this plan guys ?? i mean everyone profit for mmorpg fools, was thinking why not me too ??!!

    and yeah got around 80k for something like that but im guessing papers and dream dont cost to much to make no ?

    i want to be a millionnaire and im tired of working how this masterplan guys ??
    ( btw i know many peoples do it curently, but im thinking why not me too ? huh !! )
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Sovrath said:
    gervaise1 said:
    I wouldn't call it public relations.

    VCs - being asked to back a project that may or may bot come to fruition - will (reasonably) be looking for a "reasonable chance" to get a return on their investment. So they will want details along with expected timescales, risks, ETC/EACs  and so forth.

    And "a decent percentage of the studios time" is going to be spent answering the VCs questions as well. And - I suspect - providing them with regular updates as well.

    So what is lacking on the KS is proper information for the ..... pre-VC backers ... as to what they are getting into. For very little return. And no appreciation that the KS backers are actually pre-VC funders.


    Well, to put it in perspective, the head of our entire company, a several billion dollar company, just did a round of meetings to meet with investors and potential investors. These meetings were essentially presenting the company and then answering a lot of questions, some from people who keep coming to these meetings but never invest a dime. Apparently they do have ideas that the company should follow though.

    And this was a global tour. Not just in one company.

    So if the head of a large company feels the need to spend his time meeting with people in order to raise awareness/get investing, I don't see why the head of a fledgling company should feel that he has better things to do.

    Especially when there are misunderstandings that could very well affect his company negatively.

    absolutely.

    And - I am sure - your head of company will have tasked some senior managers to gather information. And they will have asked some junior managers. And so on - depends on the size of the company.  The time investment will be non-trivial. Cost of doing business. 
  • RazeeksterRazeekster Member UncommonPosts: 2,591
    This MMORPG is never happening. To create MMORPGs you need at least 10 million in my opinion. Allods Online was made with 11 million, so it is possible but the features they're touting is going to cost millions anyways with the technology needed to implement them.

    Smile

  • ManciManci Member UncommonPosts: 7
    edited November 2017
    This game quality is below the average. But looking forward to see improvements.
    Post edited by Manci on
    Open World Interactive
  • milyenmilyen Member UncommonPosts: 39
    One of the reasons I don't back any kickstarter or indie funded games till it out there in beta. After recent experiences with a few "pay for closed beta - access" for unfinished games with glitches / bugs frankly I am just tired of the quality of products being pushed out there just for the sake of getting their name out there or to increase the profit margins for stock holders / investors.

    I wait till a game is out and the read / research the feedback before trying. I know I'm not ahead of the crowd or surge in a new game but it's heartbreaking the amount of times you pay for the privelegde of disappointed experience.
  • AaronVictoriaAaronVictoria Member UncommonPosts: 25
    Another indie MMORPG that I warned people not to invest in. They only showed a third-person character controller, and a generic third-person combat system that I could have coded in a day; well more like 6-8 hours. I was more than happy to commend them on their terrain design, though the majority of the actual environment assets were cobbled together stock assets. So even what we saw from their environment team wasn't thoroughly impressive or expensive. Then there was my favorite noted issue, the gif image that showed a couple marrying, and they didn't even take the time to mate the characters hands together. They just crudely positioned them near each other with no attention to such minor detail: https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/011/109/611/9a97b69fc4f61c91956440f9c6641392_original.gif?w=680&fit=max&v=1462472117&q=92&s=6675a7d4964b414f9a793376b718880b

    I led a small team of coders on a Korean MMORPG project that was scrapped due to publisher disputes, and it cost about 2 million dollars to finance my team during it's 3 years of deveelopment. There was about 3-4 years of coding left, so that is equal to about another 2-3 million for programmers alone. That's 6 millions for programming, for about 6-7 years. Those figures represent a small team. A moderate team of coders for the same amount of time could eclipse 10-15 million easily. Art teams on MMORPGs are always far larger due to he shear amount of art that is required, so you're looking at roughly 30-40 million for artists for an equal amount of time.

  • DarkEvilHatredDarkEvilHatred Member UncommonPosts: 229
    edited September 2016
    This is exactly why I don't do Kickstarter. Development team promises the world and you trust them, you believe in them, you hope and want them to succeed and everything looks sooo good in writing so you buy in. NOW YOU ARE "INVESTED"... time passes and things aren't going as planned. Now they need more money and you are in a situation where you are either going to lose the money you have "invested" and will end up with nothing to show for it OR you give more money hoping to end up with SOMETHING in the end. Repeat this cycle over and over in a span of years, soon you have wayyy more money into the game than you ever dreamed and you STILL might end up with nothing to show for the money you gave them.

    NO THANK YOU!
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited September 2016
    WHAT A SURPRISE GUYS HUH?

    Was so obvious this ambitious games like this can't be made with a few thousand bucks, Indie developers need to face up and research the true costs and time-frames of this large-scale projects.

    Especially when trying to make one MMO, same goes for Dual Universe, asking for too little for too much. And when people notice that, everybody gets angry.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    Here is a quote from Caspian where he seems to blame the oversight of not actually explaining they needed $2-$3 Million on the Kickstarter page on his small echo chamber:

    The problem is, we didn't say it directly on the Kickstarter page. But I want to stress, that wasn't intentional. Requiring more than just the Kickstarter money to ship the game was so ingrained in our minds and the people we communicate with regularly, that we simply took for granted that people would understand that Kickstarter for us was for kickstarting... not finishing.

    We'd told people we had 18 months of development and a team of, at the time, 16 people. So basic arithmetic says $900k isn't going to cover even salaries for the full 18 months.

    But that all aside, I didn't want any more time to go by with people thinking we were trying to be sneaky or deceptive.


    No, of course not.  Why would anyone think that leaving such a huge point off your Kickstarter page was something sneaky?  It's not like the Kickstarter FAQ itself says "The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project."  Oh wait... yes it does.


    PS, nice shot at his supporters with the whole "basic math" dig.  Funny that when we did the exact same math, the supporters tried to shout us down and talk about how it was simply that we didn't understand the incredible new way of developing MMORPGs that they were using.


    LOL

     

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,882
    Here is a quote from Caspian where he seems to blame the oversight of not actually explaining they needed $2-$3 Million on the Kickstarter page on his small echo chamber:

    The problem is, we didn't say it directly on the Kickstarter page. But I want to stress, that wasn't intentional. Requiring more than just the Kickstarter money to ship the game was so ingrained in our minds and the people we communicate with regularly, that we simply took for granted that people would understand that Kickstarter for us was for kickstarting... not finishing.

    We'd told people we had 18 months of development and a team of, at the time, 16 people. So basic arithmetic says $900k isn't going to cover even salaries for the full 18 months.

    But that all aside, I didn't want any more time to go by with people thinking we were trying to be sneaky or deceptive.


    No, of course not.  Why would anyone think that leaving such a huge point off your Kickstarter page was something sneaky?  It's not like the Kickstarter FAQ itself says "The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project."  Oh wait... yes it does.


    PS, nice shot at his supporters with the whole "basic math" dig.  Funny that when we did the exact same math, the supporters tried to shout us down and talk about how it was simply that we didn't understand the incredible new way of developing MMORPGs that they were using.


    LOL

     

    It sounds more pathetic the more they try to explain it.

    They should have just kept quiet about not having enough money, and then pretended to be surprised about it like all the other devs do.
     
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    edited September 2016
    @Slapshot1188 Fully agree.
    It is also significant that back when people (including me) were stating that there was a mismatch between the money raised, the estimated delivery time and the scope of the project this 'ingrained knowledge' was never raised by the vehement fans. Those vehement fans certainly claimed to be in regular communication with Caspian yet they did not seem to know this, indeed, they kept on stating that the money was sufficient and that delivery, in full, would be made on time.


    None of these vehement fans seem to be posting on this thread.
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,802

    SEE PAGE 5, Caspian crushed this failed troll's agenda.

    The OP is clearly jaded and is doing all he can to be negative. He claims how he would buy the game once it is released but then does all he can in his diatribe to make a failed argument for people not to fund the game.

    WOW Caspian kicked his a$$ in his rebuttal, makes me want to pledge more!!!


    These are the people supporting this studio.

    Don't you just want to become one of them?

    Harbinger of Fools
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    @Slapshot1188 Fully agree.
    It is also significant that back when people (including me) were stating that there was a mismatch between the money raised, the estimated delivery time and the scope of the project this 'ingrained knowledge' was never raised by the vehement fans. Those vehement fans certainly claimed to be in regular communication with Caspian yet they did not seem to know this, indeed, they kept on stating that the money was sufficient and that delivery, in full, would be made on time.


    None of these vehement fans seem to be posting on this thread.

    It will be interesting to see if they post realistic dates when their store opens next week.  Or will they post the same ones from the Kickstarter and come back in a year and explain how "basic arithmetic" would have shown us that the date was unlikely and that they were actually telling their echo chamber this, but somehow forgot to change the dates in the store.
     

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    These guys are obviously "gaming the system". They misrepresented the KS because they knew it was more likely to succeed that way. They lied so that they could fund the KS and get their hands on that money.

    This will of course just be the first of many upcoming fundraising drives.

    But the hardcore fans knew this all along. The only ones who will be surprised are those that backed the KS without doing extensive research. They'd have to have done extensive research, because the "true" funding plans were never mentioned on the KS page !

    And 6 to 8 months from now, we'll have the first "we need to postpone the start of Early Access so that we can bring you the best game possible", blah blah...

    The end justifies the means though. Just remember, they're lying to you because it's in your best interest not to know the truth... :D
  • Zer0KZer0K Member UncommonPosts: 68
    They're asking for money.

    At least, if they haven't provided already, they should provide a business plan, including high level estimates for each portion of the game they're promising. They're asking external investors, us, to help fund their game.
    We, as players are looking for a game, as promised, as a return. The dividends are the fun derived from the game we're investing in.
    Wouldn't any other financial backer, venture capitalist or publisher want to know the financial plan and high level estimates in order to help make a wise decision on the investment?

    Star Citizen, call it a fluke, or a crazy lucky outcome, without a full game yet to show for it, pulled off some amazing results from backers.

    That doesn't mean every game is going to be successful at that.

    I don't want to drop money on a game, and then lose that money, if the financial plan is not sound.

    Also, what are their 'other' funding strategies? Venture Capitalists? Investors only funding the project unless they have some say and stipulation over the game's development and scope?

    That could mean, we as backers will invest in this game as it was promised initially, then to only have those promises changed or renigged upon due to some private investors leverage over how to run the project, in order to get their return.


  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    edited September 2016
    These guys are obviously "gaming the system". They misrepresented the KS because they knew it was more likely to succeed that way. They lied so that they could fund the KS and get their hands on that money.

    This will of course just be the first of many upcoming fundraising drives.

    But the hardcore fans knew this all along. The only ones who will be surprised are those that backed the KS without doing extensive research. They'd have to have done extensive research, because the "true" funding plans were never mentioned on the KS page !

    And 6 to 8 months from now, we'll have the first "we need to postpone the start of Early Access so that we can bring you the best game possible", blah blah...

    The end justifies the means though. Just remember, they're lying to you because it's in your best interest not to know the truth... :D
    their best interest will be near the beach in some years with millions of money while you look at your adverage mmorpg still in beta.

    im saying it again: if no investor or bank want to give you money, if you dont put your money either ( the main guys got another business )

    these guys turn to blind fanboy and just rip them off

    maybe law and protection should be in place for protect peoples, i know someone who have spend 1k in some kickstarter and he not rich....

    and me and some peoples included talk only negative about these type of games because we care about your guys money and we find that wrong they just rip off peoples of their money and abuse peoples dream like that ;( i find that not honest and realy sad.

    that like watching a drug addic get riped by the pusher....
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Here is a quote from Caspian where he seems to blame the oversight of not actually explaining they needed $2-$3 Million on the Kickstarter page on his small echo chamber:

    The problem is, we didn't say it directly on the Kickstarter page. But I want to stress, that wasn't intentional. Requiring more than just the Kickstarter money to ship the game was so ingrained in our minds and the people we communicate with regularly, that we simply took for granted that people would understand that Kickstarter for us was for kickstarting... not finishing.

    We'd told people we had 18 months of development and a team of, at the time, 16 people. So basic arithmetic says $900k isn't going to cover even salaries for the full 18 months.

    But that all aside, I didn't want any more time to go by with people thinking we were trying to be sneaky or deceptive.



    Wow, that's simply amazing. I think as others have said, Kickstarter is for finishing a project, not just getting an influx of money.


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