Where do you think 4.0 will take us?

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  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 267
    edited July 2016

    NM
    NM because you realized you were veering off into deflection-ville again?

    Or, NM because you realize everything I've posted is backed up with actual in-game content, and/or Yoshida's own words/actions, and is all readily verifiable by any who wish to see the game for what it is, unclouded by what they want it to be?

    Again, this isn't just me hating on the game. I've supported this game since  Alpha of 1.0. I stuck with it through all the crap it went through before and while Yoshida was trying to turn it around, right on up through the final moments of 1.23b. I was there all through the development of ARR, straight into Alpha and Beta testing, into launch, and right up to the present. 

    Point is, when I say what I have, it's not me "trolling a game I don't like". It's me addressing verifiable things about the game's direction that I find troublesome and, frankly, annoying. My hopes for 4.0 would be that Yoshida, somehow, do an about face and move away from the direction he's been taking it since 3.0. 
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALMember RarePosts: 2,007
    edited July 2016

    NM
    NM because you realized you were veering off into deflection-ville again?

    Or, NM because you realize everything I've posted is backed up with actual in-game content, and/or Yoshida's own words/actions, and is all readily verifiable by any who wish to see the game for what it is, unclouded by what they want it to be?

    Again, this isn't just me hating on the game. I've supported this game since  Alpha of 1.0. I stuck with it through all the crap it went through before and while Yoshida was trying to turn it around, right on up through the final moments of 1.23b. I was there all through the development of ARR, straight into Alpha and Beta testing, into launch, and right up to the present. 

    Point is, when I say what I have, it's not me "trolling a game I don't like". It's me addressing verifiable things about the game's direction that I find troublesome and, frankly, annoying. My hopes for 4.0 would be that Yoshida, somehow, do an about face and move away from the direction he's been taking it since 3.0. 
    I don't see how me pointing out how all the dungeons since 2.0 have been linear and my hopes for diadem and the changes it may bring to dungeons and raids was so offensive to you. I hope Yoshi moves out of the"safe"zone as well as I would like open world dungeons as well. If he does make regular dungeons less linear I hope they really make them go all over the place and not just a path that dead ends added here and there. Anyway have a nice day.
    Post edited by drivendawn on
  • MaquiameMaquiame Member UncommonPosts: 1,073
    edited July 2016
    I want to preface this post by saying that I played FFXI for about 8 years, starting with its US PC launch (so, pre-Abyssea, before SE went off the rails), and I've played FFXIV since Alpha of 1.0, and into ARR and then HW. I don't say this to brag (there's nothing brag-worthy about playing a game for a long time), but to show that I'm not just blindly throwing opinions around. I've played both enough to see the differences in their development over time. The following is just my opinion at the end of the day, but it's an informed one.

    Whatever direction they take it in, it'd be especially nice - to me - to see them cut the umbilical cord to WoW, get out of Blizzard's shadow, and actually take FFXIV in its own direction.

    For example, FFXI's original design was heavily inspired by EQ1; it provided the foundation of the game. After that, though, they cut the umbilical cord, got out of EQ1's shadow, and took FFXI in its own direction. It would go on to be described as unlike anything else on the market, maintaining a healthy, active and incredibly supportive community for years.

    By comparison, with FFXIV, Yoshida seems determined to cling to WoW, and even its players, as a major source of ideas and direction. He hasn't cut the umbilical cord, and he's clinging to WoW's shadow like a child to their security blanket.

    I've seen him cite what WoW does, or has, or what its players think, etc. so many times since 2.0's development, I've lost track. What's worse, is he's done this while ignoring/dismissing months' worth of well-reasoned requests, suggestions and concerns from players of his game, to add more depth and variety, more aggressive RMT measures, and so on. There seems to be a breakdown in Yoshida's priorities. I'm beginning to wonder if he wishes he was working on WoW, instead off FFXIV.

    A recent example is the whole "jumping potion" thing. First of all, I predict they'll be added to the game at some point with 4.0, if not sooner. He's already started making the case for it in that recent interview/article, citing 1. It's already in the Chinese FFXIV, 2. WoW has them, and 3. WoW players have asked why he didn't add them with 3.0. In the same response, he dismisses a concern about it being, basically, a cash grab by SE. That he chose to get out in front of that particular concern is telling. He's already doing damage control for it. So, yeah... "Please look forward to it".

    Of special note, going back to my remarks above: Yoshida talks up "what WoW has", and "what WoW players have to say" as arguments for an item his own game's community has not been asking for. Am I the only person who thinks that's screwed up?

    Another thing I'd like is for Yoshida  to stop diluting Eorzea with all the damn fan-service. FFXIV started off strong, with its own unique setting, story, characters, lore, world, etc. It stood apart as its own universe among the FF series, self-contained and internally consistent. However, over time, and especially since 3.0, it's becoming a Fan Service Simulator. Every time they turn around, there's some new feature or content being added  pulled directly from another FF game. They could, without irony, call it World of Final Fantasy at this point.

    And how about dungeons? What the hell is going on there? FFXIV's dungeons are becoming straight lines. We started off with interesting, thought-out dungeons, like this , this, this, and this. Recently, we've been getting crap like Sor Khai, and Antitower, which I can't even find a map for online - likely because you don't need one.

    They're even getting lazier with mounts. At first, new mounts were specifically designed and animated to fly. Then they started recycling ground mounts as flying mounts (with some really ridiculous examples). For the latest Moogle mount, they've literally recycled a background prop.

    Somewhere along the line, Yoshida lost the plot, and I've come to think he's not the right guy for the job anymore. I think he's hit the limit of what he's able, or willing to do, and it's beginning to show.

    My two gil.


    I agree with every one of your posts on this. His idolization of WoW is doing is absolutely sickening. He also promised to bring Tanaka back and I wish he did. Tanaka wrote better stories I keep  hearing and I'd love him to be a counterbalance to Yoshi's hand holding. Tanaka and his crew also were better designers in that special touch sort of way. I never played XI but the world design is something I've always loved, the dandelion poppies blowing in the wind, the dolphins in the ocean, really nice stuff.  Its a damn shame that Yoshi keeps following WoW as he does.  I also heard XIV 1.0's version 1.28 was a dream with its depth of fighting systems.
    Post edited by Maquiame on

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 267
    edited July 2016

    I don't see how me pointing out how all the dungeons since 2.0 have been linear and my hopes for diadem and the changes it may bring to dungeons and raids was so offensive to you. 
    Are you just being disingenuous at this point? You have been trying to deflect and talk around my points this entire time, rather than just address what I've said  directly.

    I explained, quite clearly, that more thought and imagination went into the dungeons earlier on in 2.0, and they've been getting more and more linear, and resembling a straight line more than anything. I linked to examples of what we were getting earlier into ARR, and what we have been moving toward since 3.0.

    Your first response was this:

    I will agree on this however it was that way from the beginning, all the maps he uses for examples are a linear trek even though they may not look it. I think what yoshi is working on with the new Diadem area and fixes may open up new possibilities. 

    You used the "well all dungeons are linear" routine, completely ignoring the point of my post. You then attempted to deflect by bringing up Diadem, a completely different type of content/system.

    I reiterated my point that while a dungeon is going to ultimately be going from "A to Z" to clear it out of enemies, but that they can still be more interesting, and provided examples of what we'd had from earlier in 2.0 compared to what we have now.

    You came back with an attempt to undermine my examples, ignoring the fact that I'd just given you 4 examples of dungeons added in 2.0, by saying:

    "Sure 1.0 had some non linear dungeons but that was a totally different game from 2.0 and onward."

    You also gave the non-sequitur response about "1.0 being a different game", which I also responded to.

    Basically, you've been ignoring what I'm saying, deflecting or throwing around non-sequiturs through this entire exchange. Yes, when I'm attempting to have a discussion with someone, it's irritating to have the other person repeatedly ignore or try to deflect what I'm saying.
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 267
    edited July 2016
    Maquiame said:
    I agree with every one of your posts on this. His idolization of WoW is doing is absolutely sickening. He also promised to bring Tanaka back and I wish he did. Tanaka wrote better stories I keep  hearing and I'd love him to be a counterbalance to Yoshi's hand holding. Tanaka and his crew also were better designers in that special touch sort of way. I never played XI but the world design is something I've always loved, the dandelion poppies blowing in the wind, the dolphins in the ocean, really nice stuff.  Its a damn shame that Yoshi keeps following WoW as he does.  I also heard XIV 1.0's version 1.28 was a dream with its depth of fighting systems.
    Did Yoshida really talk about bringing Tanaka back? I never saw that. I guess it would have been during the time between Yoshida taking over, and Tanaka leaving SE. Can you link to that article/interview, or where ever he says it? I'd be interested to read that.

    Anyway, I do wish Tanaka had stayed on board, and had the same opportunity/responsibility SE gave Yoshida, to fix FFXIV.

    Tanaka's big mistake in 1.0, per his own admission, is that he basically gave the developers/designers too much freedom.

    A quote from Tanaka about the situation, from here.
    "The trigger for me thinking about leaving was getting removed from the Final Fantasy XIV project," Tanaka told Famitsu. "I helped mold Final Fantasy XI into one of the best MMO formats on the market, and I wanted to respect the wishes of the team as much as possible when they wanted to make something different with FFXIV, so I tried my best not to meddle too much with development. In the end they weren't able to realize what they were aiming for, which is a shame, but I wish them the best of luck with the reboot."

    Obviously that was the wrong choice; there's a reason games have Directors and Producers, after all. Ironically, Tanaka's mistake was not being hands-on enough.

    BUT, while Yoshida had experience in playing MMOs, Tanaka had over a decade of experience in developing and running a MMORPG, more specifically, a successful Final Fantasy MMORPG. He also had years of direct involvement with the FF series, which is why FFXI would go on to be so unique in the market, and would earn the long-term loyal following it had. 

    1.0 had a *lot* of good things in it. Lots of things that were either good on their own (and, in fact persisted into 2.0), or were solid ideas with poor implementation. Problem is, all that good got dragged down and overshadowed by all the bad.

    Yes, 1.0 needed to be fixed. Absolutely. However, by "fix" I mean "deal with all the things that actually were gamebreaking, without eliminating all the things that weren't."

    Tanaka, I believe, would have found and maintained that balance, and produced a much better Final Fantasy MMORPG experience. Yoshida, on the other hand, effectively threw the baby out with the bathwater. 

    In a Tanaka-led FFXIV 2.0, we'd still have a meaningful Elemental Wheel (something Yoshida was quick to get rid of). We'd probably still have more interesting and intelligent mob AI, making the world a more dangerous place to explore, even at high level. We'd likely still have larger and more interesting dungeons. We'd likely have open world dungeons, without everything being tucked away inside instances. We would likely have a proper MMORPG, instead of a shallow fan service simulator.

    So yeah, I always thought they removed him from the project a bit too quickly. And, now, I rather wish they'd given him the chance they gave Yoshida. A discussion about "going into 4.0" would likely be very different.

    Post edited by QuarterStack on
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