If they say they used the money to fund game development costs, does that mean they have used up ALL money already?
Because if not, then they can refund people.
Also, what happened to Chris words that "if funding stopped tomorrow, we still have private investors funds to continue the project" ?
That was said some years ago... so, what gives?
He said that but rumors say that they, indeed, got some investors (with rumors that some requested their money back) - not really big guys, more like enthusiasts/friends/family.
Rumors aside, CR said that he dropped of these investors as soon as he got enough support directly from backers. He used some of their stretch goals to claim that achieving such mark would allow him to drop the investors and that would give him more power over the company's decision AFTER release, meaning no pressure to sell the company, for example.
But how they push the ship sales despite the bad image that such act produces and raising the pressure to impossible levels, that could mean these: - They are always in the limit, needing more money or neither the basics will be ever completed; - They have hidden investors requiring profit, since they signed for a two years project, they probably wouldn't have patience to receive their results.... so, possibly CR convinced them that they would got a lot more by keeping the ship sales, than actually releasing the product and trusting only in copy sales. - They know for a while that the project is FUBAR, but they could get a lot of profit from that, keeping the ship sales for longer (meaning not releasing), as never achieved in any successful project that they could release just from the money of copies sold, so, they just have been making sure to make it keep longer, creating difficulties to the own team, remaking stuff, always making claims of "vision" and "better", blablabla. It does not matter, image, reliability, etc., customer retention, because they only are on this to increase their pockets for as long as possible, with the part of the money that goes to their personal pockets. In other words, they are washing money.
I think that its a mix of these scenarios that happens with this project.
Yup, and this is where it gets me twitching... they know it frustrates the backers, but they still do it.
As I said before, either this will be the greatest game ever made, or the most FUBAR'ed game project ever!
Only time will tell, but if I were to bet my left nut, I would say they will launch a minimally viable game and deal with the consequences and promise of improvement, instead of launching the best game ever.
The question I have . . or concern rather is that the game is still a fair way off. If they can't afford to refund the "VERY" small number who want refunds. . how can they continue development at the pace they need to? Serious question.
They have given refunds for THREE YEARS. In my opinion a long time compared to the usual 14-30 days.
That they say at some point "STOP" seems logical to me.
They also know that some grey/black market traders want to cut their losses after the crash of the black/grey LTI ship market (because CIG reissued "unique" LTI ships) by getting refunds ... and it would not surprise me if the CIG guys secretly roll on the floor laughing about the losses of some of those shady profiteers.
The question I have . . or concern rather is that the game is still a fair way off. If they can't afford to refund the "VERY" small number who want refunds. . how can they continue development at the pace they need to? Serious question.
They have given refunds for THREE YEARS. In my opinion a long time compared to the usual 14-30 days.
That they say at some point "STOP" seems logical to me.
They also know that some grey/black market traders want to cut their losses after the crash of the black/grey LTI ship market (because CIG reissued "unique" LTI ships) by getting refunds ... and it would not surprise me if the CIG guys secretly roll on the floor laughing about the losses of some of those shady profiteers.
Have fun
Is the 3 years before or after Star Citizen became a 'Minimum viable product'?
The FTC has prosecuted one crowdfunding case so far and are looking into more. Here's their guidance to would be crowd-funders"
Keep your promises when crowdfunding. If you promise rewards, give them. If you promise refunds, provide them.
Use the money raised from crowdfunding only for the purpose represented.
If you collect money for a specified project, like creating a board
game, use the money only for that purpose. Don’t use it for personal
purposes or to start another project.
They have the juice to go after CIG if they want and the mandate to "protect" all of us if they feel enough people are being taken advantage of. The problem is crowdfunding is pretty grey. Most of the trade laws cover not getting a good or service delivered as promised. In the case of crowdfunding, we are often backing the development of a good or service.
Of course you don't get to deliberately lie to people and rip them off either. There is also a basis in trade law in this country that things need to rise to a level that is "reasonable." Was a reasonable accommodation made? Did a member of the company operate in a way that a reasonable person would operate? Companies and individuals don't just get to make up their own rules, they have to act in a way that society finds acceptable and reasonable.
For example, many of us own laptops and many have a sticker indicating tampering with certain components voids our warranty right? Not really true. The FTC protects all of us with the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. Companies can't just decide to not cover you if you want to upgrade your RAM or add a SSD; just like a car company can't force you to have your oil changed at the dealer (The reason the law was first passed.)
I love how CIG is telling everyone how crowdfunding works. I would ask again for a refund then lodge a complaint with the Atty General in the state where you live.
You don't have to put up with their crap. They are banking on you going away. They refunded me about a year ago after I got nasty and indicated to them that refunding my pledge would be less costly and less time time consuming.
FTC has been asked about CIG ("Freedom of Information Act"). They have NO ongoing Investigation against CIG/RSI, despite what certain people claim in their blogs.
As for the FTC guidelines. They are well within the limits of those guidelines from a business standpoint. Sure we as gamers might question why they need a new fancy door or mural. Or if it is becoming to engage in sort of nepotism.
These are not things that will get the FTC on your tail... Taking the money and spending it in a titty bar or on colombian sugar otoh.... would get the FTC (and perhaps the ATF) on your arse.
So what are the rumors about "Star Citizen" My concern is if the game is going to even be worth playing I mean Millions of Dollars, Dollars, The Refunds, and Arguments, its likely that other Space Games such as "Elite Dangerous" might kill out SC before it is even launched...
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
So what are the rumors about "Star Citizen" My concern is if the game is going to even be worth playing I mean Millions of Dollars, Dollars, The Refunds, and Arguments, its likely that other Space Games such as "Elite Dangerous" might kill out SC before it is even launched...
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
I think it is clear at this stage that the funds are being substantially used to develop a game; I think the real concern is over mismanagement and funds wasted on abortive work. That is the real risk to this project that could very probably result in a sub-standard product.
You received 25 LOLs. You are posting some laughably bad content, please desist.
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
There are easier ways to scam people than to create four gaming studios worldwide with 300+ employees and half a dozen AAA Hollywood actors for your mo-cap work. Plenty of journalists and many more backers have visited the studios, so that is not a Potemkin village story.
I can only give you my personal impression from meeting part of the team at a convention: They are not in it because of the money. They genuinely WANT to create this game.
So what are the rumors about "Star Citizen" My concern is if the game is going to even be worth playing I mean Millions of Dollars, Dollars, The Refunds, and Arguments, its likely that other Space Games such as "Elite Dangerous" might kill out SC before it is even launched...
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
I think it is clear at this stage that the funds are being substantially used to develop a game; I think the real concern is over mismanagement and funds wasted on abortive work. That is the real risk to this project that could very probably result in a sub-standard product.
Well real question is if "Derek Smart" was right about Star Citizen to begin with not saying "Line OF Defense" is even worth playing anyways looks too poorly developed for me...
And with Elite Dangerous if Star Citizen will be developed and released a good game or a big failure because of how long its taking them...
I tried to play Star Citizen Test I couldn't even play it, I tried Elite Dangerous it actually played?
So I guess question is if SC will even be a success or not?
I mean honestly comparing LOD "Global Agenda" and "Fire Fall" look way better anyways.
So what are the rumors about "Star Citizen" My concern is if the game is going to even be worth playing I mean Millions of Dollars, Dollars, The Refunds, and Arguments, its likely that other Space Games such as "Elite Dangerous" might kill out SC before it is even launched...
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
I think it is clear at this stage that the funds are being substantially used to develop a game; I think the real concern is over mismanagement and funds wasted on abortive work. That is the real risk to this project that could very probably result in a sub-standard product.
Well real question is if "Derek Smart" was right about Star Citizen to begin with not saying "Line OF Defense" is even worth playing anyways looks too poorly developed for me...
And with Elite Dangerous if Star Citizen will be developed and released a good game or a big failure because of how long its taking them...
I tried to play Star Citizen Test I couldn't even play it, I tried Elite Dangerous it actually played?
So I guess question is if SC will even be a success or not?
I mean honestly comparing LOD "Global Agenda" and "Fire Fall" look way better anyways.
If you want my personal opinion, I think it will release feature light and receive average-poor reviews. It will be a Minimum Viable Product, unfortunately with all the furore surrounding it, the leap it has made over to mainstream press and the vast quantities of money pledged, a MVP simply will not be good enough for its long term success. There will be a storm about ships sold that won;t be available for years, and money pledged for features that are on a distant horizon, people will decry the failure of Kickstarter, the skies will fall and a few of us will retire to an underground city to escape the death and destruction.
But that is just my personal opinion.
You received 25 LOLs. You are posting some laughably bad content, please desist.
I don't think Elite will kill out Star Citizen. I believe there's room for many space games providing that they differentiate themselves enough. Elite will probably appeal to a smaller audience due to the direction of the game, ie far less emphasis on guilds and group gameplay, afterall the ethos of Elite are a pilot and their ship making their way in the galaxy. Star Citizen is more like a bastardized mashup of CoD + WoW in space and will appeal far more to the general gaming public because of that.
The only thing ED will kill is itself if they keep delivering sub-par updates like Powerplay and Engineers. They need atmospheric flight , FPS and multicrew if they want to stay afloat.
While i love E:D it has severe limitations by its very nature as a game relying on a peer-to-peer structure, with only minimal calls to the Frontier database server (mostly to handle the economic and political side).
No Mans Sky also has limitations - that's why it actively seems to try to keep players from meeting. I look forward to NMS as a great SOLO explorer game. The netcode is something few people want to tangle with - and that is one of THE challenges that SC tries to overcome.
Many of the advances I expect from Star Citizen are not possible with a P-2-P structure. They require potent databases a la EVE Online. And a robust netcode.
The only thing ED will kill is itself if they keep delivering sub-par updates like Powerplay and Engineers. They need atmospheric flight , FPS and multicrew if they want to stay afloat.
I agree that Powerplay was subpar, the idea behind it was quite good and it should really be expanded upon but the implementation was not. Hopefully they revisit at some point but for now it's a poor show tbh.
Engineers however is great, the main complaint being the time involved with material collection which is being addressed in the next major patch. Being able to customise your ships, make them more individual is pretty neat.
I believe ship launched fighters is the theme of the next major update with character creation/multicrew coming in the one after.
While i love E:D it has severe limitations by its very nature as a game relying on a peer-to-peer structure, with only minimal calls to the Frontier database server (mostly to handle the economic and political side).
Many of the advances I expect from Star Citizen are not possible with a P-2-P structure. They require potent databases a la EVE Online. And a robust netcode.
I don't know that Elite is as simple as you imply. All the mission stuff is handled server side, USS spawns and the like are server side, exploration data is server side, GalNet stuff, Community goals etc.
Star Citizen's netcode certainly seems to be their largest hurdle that we know of to date. They've done 4 rewrites in as many years and the performance is still way below what they need. For something so critical to the game I hope they manage to nail it.
Can you elaborate on why you think SC will need such databases like EVE?
FTC has been asked about CIG ("Freedom of Information Act"). They have NO ongoing Investigation against CIG/RSI, despite what certain people claim in their blogs.
Have fun
That's not how the FIA (freedom of information act) works.
I mean, if FIA did work how Erillion thinks it does, every criminal would just ask 'Hey! You investigating me?' every month.
This kind of lets me doubt you are a paid PR person now. PR generally (unless they are incompetent) don't mislead by deceiving how a US government process works as it can get very messy very quickly.
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
There are easier ways to scam people than to create four gaming studios worldwide with 300+ employees and half a dozen AAA Hollywood actors for your mo-cap work. Plenty of journalists and many more backers have visited the studios, so that is not a Potemkin village story.
I can only give you my personal impression from meeting part of the team at a convention: They are not in it because of the money. They genuinely WANT to create this game.
Have fun
Food doesn't start out as shit too... but in the end, we know what it becomes.
This whole thing might not have started as a scam nor be a scam at the moment...
But, if they do not deliver what was promised, it will be a case of gross mismanagement of funds, scope creep and under delivery of the promised game.
As I said before, only time will tell that this will either be the greatest space game ever made, or the biggest failure in the gaming industry.
Until then, all parties have a 50% chance of being right or wrong.
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
There are easier ways to scam people than to create four gaming studios worldwide with 300+ employees and half a dozen AAA Hollywood actors for your mo-cap work. Plenty of journalists and many more backers have visited the studios, so that is not a Potemkin village story.
I can only give you my personal impression from meeting part of the team at a convention: They are not in it because of the money. They genuinely WANT to create this game.
Have fun
Food doesn't start out as shit too... but in the end, we know what it becomes.
This whole thing might not have started as a scam nor be a scam at the moment...
But, if they do not deliver what was promised, it will be a case of gross mismanagement of funds, scope creep and under delivery of the promised game.
As I said before, only time will tell that this will either be the greatest space game ever made, or the biggest failure in the gaming industry.
Until then, all parties have a 50% chance of being right or wrong.
Its 2 games.
Sure you can say that about MMOs that are many games in one, but at least the way they are releasing the game shows that each different aspect should be looked at differently.
The single player and the multi player.
The different point of view, should be, imo, is that the single player should have high expectations while the mmo is still something that can be having a few delays or released a bit prematurely.
I hope their mmo is amazing as well, in that their universes are complex and dynamic to handle a large player base. And that same complexity should exist in the single player that there are moving npcs etc as advertized with certain other space games that failed to deliver with smart 'A.I.' in their single player game.
So if they make the single player game great, then that already makes the game good enough for me. And they can add certain key features such as racing, fps, customization improvements with the other mmo expectations down the road.
Thats how im setting my expectations
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Can you elaborate on why you think SC will need such databases like EVE?
CCP/EVE has special IBM blade servers that allow quick and high volume data access from multiple customers for real time combat .... SC will need something equally capable.
FTC has been asked about CIG ("Freedom of Information Act"). They have NO ongoing Investigation against CIG/RSI, despite what certain people claim in their blogs.
Have fun
That's not how the FIA (freedom of information act) works.
I mean, if FIA did work how Erillion thinks it does, every criminal would just ask 'Hey! You investigating me?' every month.
This kind of lets me doubt you are a paid PR person now. PR generally (unless they are incompetent) don't mislead by deceiving how a US government process works as it can get very messy very quickly.
There is a difference between 'search our records' and 'search all records'. One is 'authorized to know' and another isn't. Take a guess on which is which. Like I said before, if it really did work like how you are claiming, wouldn't criminals just have a monthly 'hey, are you investigating me?' request to FTC?
Now the fact you are hiding behind an image and an article (guess you can't backtrack since I quoted your post?), indicates you might be paid PR. Still not sure though.
Here's a question, are you claiming that if you lodge a Freedom of Information request to FTC, and the letter by FTC has the phrase 'we found no records', it means that there are no FTC investigation? I'm just making it very explicit.
Comments
As I said before, either this will be the greatest game ever made, or the most FUBAR'ed game project ever!
Only time will tell, but if I were to bet my left nut, I would say they will launch a minimally viable game and deal with the consequences and promise of improvement, instead of launching the best game ever.
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
it could have been mighty Nr 9.
This have been a good conversation
That they say at some point "STOP" seems logical to me.
They also know that some grey/black market traders want to cut their losses after the crash of the black/grey LTI ship market (because CIG reissued "unique" LTI ships) by getting refunds ... and it would not surprise me if the CIG guys secretly roll on the floor laughing about the losses of some of those shady profiteers.
Have fun
Original - http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4551#post462019951 (paywall)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-07-15-through-gritted-teeth-star-citizen-developer-gives-player-whopping-usd2500-refund
CIG is sued by Crytek
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/14/16776300/crytek-star-citizen-lawsuit-cig-rsi
EX-Backer StreetRoller sues Chris Roberts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojx7VcbowYQ
Same result.
- Keep your promises when crowdfunding. If you promise rewards, give them. If you promise refunds, provide them.
- Use the money raised from crowdfunding only for the purpose represented.
If you collect money for a specified project, like creating a board
game, use the money only for that purpose. Don’t use it for personal
purposes or to start another project.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-blog/2015/06/dont-let-crowdfunding-be-your-doomThe FTC is actually a government office that says pretty busy prosecuting jerks. You can see a list of pending cases here:
https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings
They have the juice to go after CIG if they want and the mandate to "protect" all of us if they feel enough people are being taken advantage of. The problem is crowdfunding is pretty grey. Most of the trade laws cover not getting a good or service delivered as promised. In the case of crowdfunding, we are often backing the development of a good or service.
Of course you don't get to deliberately lie to people and rip them off either. There is also a basis in trade law in this country that things need to rise to a level that is "reasonable." Was a reasonable accommodation made? Did a member of the company operate in a way that a reasonable person would operate? Companies and individuals don't just get to make up their own rules, they have to act in a way that society finds acceptable and reasonable.
For example, many of us own laptops and many have a sticker indicating tampering with certain components voids our warranty right? Not really true. The FTC protects all of us with the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. Companies can't just decide to not cover you if you want to upgrade your RAM or add a SSD; just like a car company can't force you to have your oil changed at the dealer (The reason the law was first passed.)
I love how CIG is telling everyone how crowdfunding works. I would ask again for a refund then lodge a complaint with the Atty General in the state where you live.
You don't have to put up with their crap. They are banking on you going away. They refunded me about a year ago after I got nasty and indicated to them that refunding my pledge would be less costly and less time time consuming.
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
Have fun
As for the FTC guidelines. They are well within the limits of those guidelines from a business standpoint. Sure we as gamers might question why they need a new fancy door or mural. Or if it is becoming to engage in sort of nepotism.
These are not things that will get the FTC on your tail... Taking the money and spending it in a titty bar or on colombian sugar otoh.... would get the FTC (and perhaps the ATF) on your arse.
This have been a good conversation
Not saying the case but Couldn't it be just a complete scam where they take everyone's money and bail with it writing a little code to make people pay up then just shutting it all down saying the money was spent.
You are posting some laughably bad content, please desist.
I can only give you my personal impression from meeting part of the team at a convention: They are not in it because of the money. They genuinely WANT to create this game.
Have fun
And with Elite Dangerous if Star Citizen will be developed and released a good game or a big failure because of how long its taking them...
I tried to play Star Citizen Test I couldn't even play it, I tried Elite Dangerous it actually played?
So I guess question is if SC will even be a success or not?
I mean honestly comparing LOD "Global Agenda" and "Fire Fall" look way better anyways.
But that is just my personal opinion.
You are posting some laughably bad content, please desist.
Star Citizen is more like a bastardized mashup of CoD + WoW in space and will appeal far more to the general gaming public because of that.
No Mans Sky also has limitations - that's why it actively seems to try to keep players from meeting. I look forward to NMS as a great SOLO explorer game. The netcode is something few people want to tangle with - and that is one of THE challenges that SC tries to overcome.
Many of the advances I expect from Star Citizen are not possible with a P-2-P structure. They require potent databases a la EVE Online. And a robust netcode.
Have fun
I agree that Powerplay was subpar, the idea behind it was quite good and it should really be expanded upon but the implementation was not. Hopefully they revisit at some point but for now it's a poor show tbh.
Engineers however is great, the main complaint being the time involved with material collection which is being addressed in the next major patch. Being able to customise your ships, make them more individual is pretty neat.
I believe ship launched fighters is the theme of the next major update with character creation/multicrew coming in the one after.
It's all happening, it just takes time.
I don't know that Elite is as simple as you imply. All the mission stuff is handled server side, USS spawns and the like are server side, exploration data is server side, GalNet stuff, Community goals etc.
Star Citizen's netcode certainly seems to be their largest hurdle that we know of to date. They've done 4 rewrites in as many years and the performance is still way below what they need. For something so critical to the game I hope they manage to nail it.
Can you elaborate on why you think SC will need such databases like EVE?
I mean, if FIA did work how Erillion thinks it does, every criminal would just ask 'Hey! You investigating me?' every month.
This kind of lets me doubt you are a paid PR person now. PR generally (unless they are incompetent) don't mislead by deceiving how a US government process works as it can get very messy very quickly.
Original - http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4551#post462019951 (paywall)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-07-15-through-gritted-teeth-star-citizen-developer-gives-player-whopping-usd2500-refund
CIG is sued by Crytek
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/14/16776300/crytek-star-citizen-lawsuit-cig-rsi
EX-Backer StreetRoller sues Chris Roberts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojx7VcbowYQ
This whole thing might not have started as a scam nor be a scam at the moment...
But, if they do not deliver what was promised, it will be a case of gross mismanagement of funds, scope creep and under delivery of the promised game.
As I said before, only time will tell that this will either be the greatest space game ever made, or the biggest failure in the gaming industry.
Until then, all parties have a 50% chance of being right or wrong.
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
Sure you can say that about MMOs that are many games in one, but at least the way they are releasing the game shows that each different aspect should be looked at differently.
The single player and the multi player.
The different point of view, should be, imo, is that the single player should have high expectations while the mmo is still something that can be having a few delays or released a bit prematurely.
I hope their mmo is amazing as well, in that their universes are complex and dynamic to handle a large player base. And that same complexity should exist in the single player that there are moving npcs etc as advertized with certain other space games that failed to deliver with smart 'A.I.' in their single player game.
So if they make the single player game great, then that already makes the game good enough for me. And they can add certain key features such as racing, fps, customization improvements with the other mmo expectations down the road.
Thats how im setting my expectations
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
E:D does not need that (uses P-2-P for that).
Have fun
http://imgur.com/xAiNAar
Have fun
Like I said before, if it really did work like how you are claiming, wouldn't criminals just have a monthly 'hey, are you investigating me?' request to FTC?
Now the fact you are hiding behind an image and an article (guess you can't backtrack since I quoted your post?), indicates you might be paid PR. Still not sure though.
Here's a question, are you claiming that if you lodge a Freedom of Information request to FTC, and the letter by FTC has the phrase 'we found no records', it means that there are no FTC investigation?
I'm just making it very explicit.
Original - http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4551#post462019951 (paywall)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-07-15-through-gritted-teeth-star-citizen-developer-gives-player-whopping-usd2500-refund
CIG is sued by Crytek
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/14/16776300/crytek-star-citizen-lawsuit-cig-rsi
EX-Backer StreetRoller sues Chris Roberts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojx7VcbowYQ