Level Grind: can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

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  • winghaven1winghaven1 HafnarfjörðurMember RarePosts: 595
    Eadan1 said:
    My ideal leveling system goes like this : You can toggle leveling up automatically, meaning the game will choose when you are ready to level up, but you can also decide to level up at any point you feel comfortable with the skills you earned in your last level up.


    NOO GOD! NO. GOD. PLEASE. NO. NO!!! NO!!! NOOOOOO!!!
  • Eadan1Eadan1 Member UncommonPosts: 344
    Eadan1 said:
    My ideal leveling system goes like this : You can toggle leveling up automatically, meaning the game will choose when you are ready to level up, but you can also decide to level up at any point you feel comfortable with the skills you earned in your last level up.


    NOO GOD! NO. GOD. PLEASE. NO. NO!!! NO!!! NOOOOOO!!!
    Why? You can choose not to level up if you don't want. It beats killing the same mob a billion times in the same way to level up like in EQ2 for me.
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAMember EpicPosts: 2,360
    I think it's going to be hard to convince mmorpg gamers to ditch one of the core features of the genre.  But i also imagine there can be some middle ground that could make both camps happy.  I'd say GW2 has a good approach where a pvper can start pvping right at level 1.  
  • cheyanecheyane EarthMember EpicPosts: 4,918
    I don't know why some of you even play these games if almost every aspect of it turns you off or you continue to advocate for it to change.
    image
  • YashaXYashaX Baldurs GateMember RarePosts: 2,013
    YashaX said:

    People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.


    6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
    If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
    unfilteredJW
    ....
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,966
    Level grind? Sure if it's pointless like most MMORPGs made in the last 8 years. When expansions make all previous content irrelevant and pointless (As experienced with WoW's DK at the release of WotLK) 

    But that's the real problem. It's not leveling that is what we don't need. What we need is a meaningful leveling experience that isn't negated by level-capping and expansions.

    From a content perspective, City of heroes had the best leveling of all MMORPGs. In fact, most of us hit level cap and rolled alts. We did more leveling than we did level 50 content.

    From a Game Mechanics Perspective, Anarchy Online also had one of the best Character Development designs ever. Gear was not usable based on levels. It was usable based on minimum stat requirements. If you could buff a certain stat to the required level, you could equip gear WELL beyond your normal abilities. And players did. That game perfected the art of "Twinking"

    But with the modern theme park design, it's all about combat. Combat, more combat and when you are done with combat, there is still combat to do. So yeah.
  • deniterdeniter KouvolaMember UncommonPosts: 1,131
    YashaX said:
    YashaX said:

    People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.


    6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
    If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
    I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.

    I would prefer certain 'achievement based progressions', for example you gain level when your gear exceeds certain item level, or you have gain enough reputation for a faction, etc. A player could have a choice how to get to the goal. Using the first example, you could grind mobs and wish a lucky drop, or farm gold to buy improvement from auction house / other players, or you could run dungeons and hope the piece you need drops, or you could learn a professions and craft better gear.

    Levels shouldn't automatically mean you become instantly stronger upon level up. It should tell you you're now ready to try further challenges, and give you an access to better skills, equipment, and new content. Gameplay mechanics where a player can grind same mobs over and over again with no upgrade whatsoever and still level up should be anchient history by now.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,966
    Let's go to a platform-jumping game forum and ask Mario Bros. fans to admit they are tired of spamming the Jump button.
  • Sid_ViciousSid_Vicious Portland, ORMember UncommonPosts: 2,032
    I think it's going to be hard to convince mmorpg gamers to ditch one of the core features of the genre.  But i also imagine there can be some middle ground that could make both camps happy.  I'd say GW2 has a good approach where a pvper can start pvping right at level 1.  
    Yes I definitely agree that its important to be able to compete without grinding.
    YashaX said:
    YashaX said:

    People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.


    6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
    If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
    I agree and a good example of this was the original Darkfall because people that mindlessly grinded mobs or AFK harvest like crazy were ahead... it was a ridiculous grind but honestly I didn't grind because I was familiar with the game and knew where to PVP where I could compete at a lower level. Instead of grinding I just kept looking for fights that I could win. Eventually I did catch up with the top dogs from just playing the game (and jesus patches, like destroyer build), and during this I found that people with more skills had less PVP experience.... so I could still win fights.

    My point though is that there are some people who are not good at PVP... and they need to be able to win too sometimes. Being ahead of an opponent gives them an edge and makes it possible.

    Also, its epic to be able to roll a group of people by yourself. Not everyone gets to experience that but because of the player level gap, at least some do.

    NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

    Watch me play Darkfall and sometimes PVP in other MMORPGs on Twitch.

    Darkfall has launched!!! MAY 5th!! Join before its too late!

    Follow my RP blog here: http://riseofagon.blogspot.com/



  • RingsideRingside joliette, QCMember UncommonPosts: 248
    edited June 2016
    Im sry BUT I WANT MY GRIND BACK. Good were the days of EverQuest, Vanilla WoW and TBC, Lineage 2 C4-C5-C6. I dont want no more games Ala GW2 with no grind what so ever... Also plz bring the holy Trinity back. I loved to play support classes with CC and make the CC needed.

    STOP doing so much instanced games we want OPEN WORLD with no invisible walls or instanced zones.


    Post edited by Ringside on
    BrodanunfilteredJW
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INMember RarePosts: 5,447
    If the game is enjoyable then I dont see it as a grind....If gaining levels means getting new spells and talents that make playing more enjoyable then it is worth it......I look more at the journey in a MMO than the destination.
  • KabulozoKabulozo AracajuMember UncommonPosts: 576
    edited June 2016
    Ringside said:
    Im sry BUT I WANT MY GRIND BACK. Good were the days of EverQuest, Vanilla WoW and TBC, Lineage 2 C4-C5-C6. I dont want no more games Ala GW2 with no grind what so ever... Also plz bring the holy Trinity back. I loved to play support classes with CC and make the CC needed.

    STOP doing so much instanced games we want OPEN WORLD... with grind


    Agree but WoW started with lot of instanced stuff as a main focus, the open world felt secondary even considering the old days, not to mention i hate faction system, bring back a meaningful political system like Lineage.
    Post edited by Kabulozo on
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,892
    YashaX said:
    I agree. In a game focused on realm vs realm pvp, enormous gear/level gaps with substantial grind times is an utterly horrid mechanic.

    People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.

    ESO was a classic example of this: every time I wanted to get a character ready for pvp I basically had to research the best grind spots and just move from grind spot to grind spot. Then with the champion point system I had to spend even more time just grinding, grinding, grinding. Time spent in pvp worked against me, because it usually meant significantly slowing down progression. 

    Even in a pve game excessive grind can be terrible, it is really one of the defining differences between single player rpgs and most mmos. I don't think just because a game is an mmo it necessarily has to have such boring grind mechanics, or that people who don't enjoy such grinding should "go play moba".

    I was going to jump on the "heck no, MMORPGs need to have grinding" bandwagon until you brought up ESO.

    I remembered I joined it believing it would follow DAOCs design (my fault, didn't do proper research) so I would level up to 50 and then join my friends in non stop RVR content with future progression tied to realm abilities earned from RVR.

    Shortly after launch I realized level 50 was not the end.  I would have to grind through the other two factions and then a new expansion to finally put the PVE grind behind me.

    It appeared they were always going to be adding new PVE content that impacted RVR (now I know who was responsible for the TOA debacle) so at level 35 I walked away.

    My friends stuck with it for awhile, but they all eventually burned out along the way through the Champion levels and left as well.

    So yeah, if the major purpose of a MMORPG at end game is PVP it probably makes no sense to put it behind an arduous PVE grind wall unless you are the type who enjoys (and has the time) to push through it and gain the advantage over those who can't hack it. (I recall L2 at launch being one I couldn't do it on)

    Now if you are creating more of a virtual world where PVP is part of the overall game design, but not the major theme to it then I'd favor a more progression (grind) approach that focused more on socialization and the journey.




    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

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  • KabulozoKabulozo AracajuMember UncommonPosts: 576
    edited June 2016
    ^^
    Except that in Lineage the pvp has more purpose than in a game like GW2. In L1/L2(old days) it is related to hunting grounds-open bosses competition and that is why it can't be separated from pve.
    Post edited by Kabulozo on
  • YashaXYashaX Baldurs GateMember RarePosts: 2,013
    deniter said:
    YashaX said:
    YashaX said:

    People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.


    6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
    If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
    I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.

    It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos,  you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.

    If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
    ....
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,539
    I like dungeon running, I like raiding, I like endgame PvP but I'm sick and tired of the shallow level grinding that pretty much every game has. I'm not interested in hearing the same old leveling stories or killing humans and orcs that have been adjusted to fit me for level 5, 15, 25, 35, 45 or 55.

    Some people would love endless leveling, others can't stand it. You can't make both groups happy.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Stock, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,915
    We Walter?


    There is no we here. There is no %#@ing we.

    Is how I choose to respond to such brash statements.
    I'd say the level grind is what appeals many to rpg's in the first place.

    It's the ability to actually have a chance no matter how small it is of progressing and being equal if not better than another who may be in a higher social class.


    That is what compels the average addict. Which make no mistakes mmorpg players are just that.
    I've heard less bitching about swag gross cheap dirt weed than I do about games here.

    10 years of people watching here at mmorpg.com has given me the insight of...this is normal. That's because most here are addicts.
  • DztBlkDztBlk CAMember UncommonPosts: 126
    Nope.
    unfilteredJW
  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,990
    In a PvE oriented game, I like a long progression.

    But the OP has a point. If the tables were turned, I would not want to be required to PvP for months before I was allowed to PvE. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • deniterdeniter KouvolaMember UncommonPosts: 1,131
    YashaX said:
    deniter said:
    YashaX said:
    YashaX said:

    People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.


    6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
    If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
    I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.

    It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos,  you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.

    If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
    I kind of agree, but in my opinion the point of any mmo game should never be to fight other players. There should always be a greater goal behind, and to get there fighting other players could be required. So killing other players per se shouldn't give you anything. Mindless killing shouldn't be promoted by game design.

    With the second paragraph i disagree completely. If you sign up for an RvR-type of game, AND there is PvE side with mobs, crafting, dungeons, factions, etc. it would be very bad design if one was able to completely ignore more than half the game and progress only be doing PvP. For that kind of players there are other genres, like MOBAs and FPSes.
  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 603
    There is a reason why games target specific target audiences.
    The best bet is to play the games that cater to your taste, instead of playing something that does not and then complaining.

    There is no silver bullet. There is no game that satisfies every demographic.
    Choose wisely and have fun.

  • YashaXYashaX Baldurs GateMember RarePosts: 2,013
    deniter said:
    YashaX said:
    deniter said:
    YashaX said:
    YashaX said:

    People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.


    6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.
    If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.
    I don't think it makes any difference if you mindlessly kill computer controlled mobs or human controlled mobs.

    It matters in a RvR pvp focused mmo (which is what the OP mentioned) because the point of the game is meant to be fighting against other players. Also unlike mobs in most mmos,  you can't "mindlessly" kill other players unless the class balance is totally out of wack, a large gear/level gap exists, or there is just something fundamentally wrong with the game.

    If you sign up for an RvR-type pvp game and you have to spend 6 months grinding mobs and macro harvesting rocks while afk with your computer on all night before you can actually have any real fun fighting other players, I think it is fair to say that the game design is flawed. But amazingly that is exactly how some (most?) of these games play out.
    I kind of agree, but in my opinion the point of any mmo game should never be to fight other players. There should always be a greater goal behind, and to get there fighting other players could be required. So killing other players per se shouldn't give you anything. Mindless killing shouldn't be promoted by game design.

    With the second paragraph i disagree completely. If you sign up for an RvR-type of game, AND there is PvE side with mobs, crafting, dungeons, factions, etc. it would be very bad design if one was able to completely ignore more than half the game and progress only be doing PvP. For that kind of players there are other genres, like MOBAs and FPSes.
    You can disagree with it, but it just makes the pvp side of the game crap. Atm that is how most mmos are built: they are mainly pve with pvp tacked on, or they are gank-type games that center on grinding pve to become OP so you can dominate other players.

    Hopefully CU and Crowfall will be focused on RvR/pvp so that the main avenue of progression is through the pvp (WAR seemed to be like this). GW2 is pretty good in that respect because you can just pvp and progress fairly quickly while having fun.
    ....
  • DEATHRAMENTDEATHRAMENT HALIFAX, NSMember UncommonPosts: 691
    I like the lvl grind, although i wish all mmorpg's would adopt the lvl up your skills type of progression rather then the standard charactor lvl's.
  • eoloeeoloe Member UncommonPosts: 14
    GW1 had one of the best progression system for a pvp based game. Easy to reach level cap (especially with the second expansion) + standardization of equipment stats.

    Moreover the very idea of a virtual world based on characters with levels where most of them reach a level cap is silly.

    Yes I know the argument: in fantasy worlds the characters are crazy different in the power they can wield like Frodo and Gandalf. Hence the silly idea that RPGs are defined by levels..... (truth: they are not)

    However, if you really want to make a difference between Frodo and Gandalf, then you should allow only few characters to reach level cap while leaving most of the player base in the low level mud. In a game that is not really acceptable, therefore everybody is the world savior which is also stupid.

    So what with progression? Well horizontal progression is the best. The vertical one is the problem. And how can it make sense to play a pvp game in which no-lifers win, not based on skill, but on time invested? I will never understand that...

    => "Eh look boy I p4wnd u with my +99999 sw0rd of 3litness!"

    Vertical progression is acceptable as long as it does not prevent people to enjoy what the game is made for.

    I am not sure how horizontal progression would perform in a PVE based game though. I guess it could work if the variety of actions possible would be wide enough and if combat would be just a small optional part of the game.
  • nerovergilnerovergil klMember UncommonPosts: 631
    Ringside said:
    Im sry BUT I WANT MY GRIND BACK. Good were the days of EverQuest, Vanilla WoW and TBC, Lineage 2 C4-C5-C6. I dont want no more games Ala GW2 with no grind what so ever... Also plz bring the holy Trinity back. I loved to play support classes with CC and make the CC needed.

    STOP doing so much instanced games we want OPEN WORLD with no invisible walls or instanced zones.


    thats why i said....we need 2 separate server...pve (grind to da max) and pvp (insta fun) server...we have 2 completely different person playing mmorpg
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