Ya not to derail this further, and while I was not around in the 70s, the internet seems to remember cars from that era topping out around 100k. 70k doesn't seem like that much of a stretch for some of the less reliable models.
Did you read forums back then? Honest question, as there were plenty of posts on MOB grinding getting old, as well as wanting something more in terms of game-play on the PVE front (hence what we know as MMORPG questing becoming a thing).
I have questions about your post that I don't understand. I'm hoping this response doesn't come off as rude. That isn't my intention. I'm trying to understand what you mean. I'm unsure.
Sure there are always complainers in any game. Probably more so targeted at individual "hell levels" but...using eq as the example because that is what everyone is comparing Pantheon to: Every competent gamer could reach max level with not that much difficulty. The little bit of grind just added to the sense of accomplishment. You talk as if you have never ran out of things to attain in games before before?
To me, based on my experience; that was the real game changer here. As with the introduction of such content, and moving forward to it becoming more cinematic/interactive. The real pitfall was, no longer were people beholden to each other to provide each other content. The game now provided content.. Hence we've moved farther and farther away from the idea that the community was the content.
I guess I need clarification on "no longer were people beholden to each other tp provide each other content" What does that mean? How did people provide each other content?
The leveling was such a tiny part of the game that it wasn't an issue except for the few random complainers. Honestly I'm sensing you might be one of those people who played EQ...or a similar game for a little while, but never really experienced what it had to offer so your point of view is one of misunderstanding. No one who actually "played" eq would complain about the leveling that I know of. It just wasn't a substantial part of the game experience.
Leveling in EQ was basically the tutorial. Once you hit max level and joined a raiding guild and raided every day is when the real content began. That is when you actually got to experience EQ.
As that was the crux of old-school designs, they all revolved around that idea in different ways.
And that's going to be the biggest issue in bringing these games back, getting people to see that lack of content brings people together to create their own. Rather than them simply thinking this game has no content, it's garbage.
You keep using the word content. Do you mean quests? Dungeons, various mobs, exotic locations within the game, these are all examples of content. Quests too but "content" doesn't seem to make sense in the given context. Maybe it's me?
After rereading it multiple times I think that might be where the misunderstanding is. You are using the word "content" and meaning quests. Is that right?
Responses posted in between the comments.
...I think I figured it out at the end. Maybe? Let me know:)
First I wasn't talking about EQ, I was talking about the main difference between old and new as I see it, as well as how we got to the point of what new MMORPGs offer.
My experience in old MMORPG's lies mostly in SWG and DAOC. As well as MMORPG forums.. Not EQ.
When I refer to content, I'm referring to the more story oriented focus of games today. As the games became a lot more focused on that content, they more or less rely on it today. Whereas in games like SWG and DAOC, most player involvement lay in how players came together and the experience we provided one another with. Which in DAOC and SWG was almost 100% based around player interaction. The "content" you refer to.. Dungeons, Locations etc... would have been pretty dull without the players you were playing with.
It wasn't fleshed out, it had little in the way of interactivity, etc... It was more or less scenery. The only story it told was what players made of it and used it for.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Distopia said: Which in DAOC and SWG was almost 100% based around player interaction. The "content" you refer to.. Dungeons, Locations etc... would have been pretty dull without the players you were playing with.
It wasn't fleshed out, it had little in the way of interactivity, etc... It was more or less scenery. The only story it told was what players made of it and used it for.
And that's the Home You Can Never Go Back To Again.
Recreating the game faithfully won't make players younger and eager again. They can't ever give the "gee whiz" back.
And it's a self-limited market of old dudes, and whatever kids poke their noses in curiously. New Players? The "vets" will instantly dislike and pile abuse upon them, and quickly chase them away. "Get off MY lawn, damn kids, this is OUR game."
From a marketing standpoint, it's financial suicide.
The thing is, though, that while many of these "cash grab" games aren't very good at all - that, in itself, is not a convincing argument for going back to what people already stopped playing.
I mean, there's clearly a market for games like Pantheon - but it's very small. Millions? Hardly. Maybe one million if it's done right and is released in a polished and finished state, but that's it.
I admit, I haven't been following development very closely, but it certainly looks old to me - both in terms of visuals and design.
To me, there's nothing inherently wrong with repeating the past or sticking with the old ways - but I will never agree it's the best way to approach game development.
I always look for games that take things beyond what we've already seen. Games that are bold enough to genuinely push the mold. No, not innovation for the sake of innovation - but for the sake of improving and expanding upon established designs or paradigms.
People stopped playing them because developers stopped making them, and why did they stop making them? Because developers learned that if they catered to a different crowd they could make WAY more money, the 30 day crowd as the OP pointed out. Its not what gamers asked for, its what developers figured out would draw MORE people, its that simple.
There are still, and yes I would say 500k to a million, MMO gamers lurking and waiting for a developer to sack up and make a traditional MMO.
Pantheon doesn't give two shits about the modern MMO and the modern MMO gamer that make up the numbers, they are making a game for the original players of the genre.
Why did people stop playing those that existed, though?
Games like Vanguard and SWG? Why did people stop playing these games if they're so popular?
They shut down the servers because the number of people playing them weren't sustainable.
Vanguard was rough at launch, but they eventually fixed it up so it was playable - and yet only a tiny portion of players bothered to play it.
We're talking less than 10K players towards the end.
Where were all those 500K+ players that are so ready to support such a design?
However, as I said, I do believe we could potentially see 500K-1M players for a fresh game with a similar design. But that's about the extent of it.
An Indie developer doesn't have the resources to provide something as top of the line as the biggest boys so of course they are going to try and appeal to the 'oldschool' crowd. In a lot of ways, being oldschool just means that we are more willing to put up with crap because we are desperate for the next 'hello I live behind my computer' game to replace something that we lost.. everyone knows that the real money is in phone apps and console games these days.
On one hand I want more population so that our beloved MMORPGs can stay afloat but on the other hand do I really want more people living behind their computer? Its unhealthy... and most people steer clear from time-consuming games.
When people first tried to get me to play EQ I thought they were crazy. You mean you want me to live behind my computer when there are more interesting things to do? It wasn't until I moved out to the middle of nowhere that I turned to MMORPGs for fun... and I did it to socialize with people.
Its a dying market because most people are too healthy to waste time playing a game meant for living behind the computer. In all honesty, would you want your kids wasting away their lives like that? My xgirlfriend used to play WoW with her Dad sometimes and then when we got together she played a more hardcore game aimed for the 'oldschool' players called Darkfall and pretty soon she was online several hours a day and her Dad tried to get her to stop playing it because it seemed like a problem.
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An Indie developer doesn't have the resources to provide something as top of the line as the biggest boys so of course they are going to try and appeal to the 'oldschool' crowd. In a lot of ways, being oldschool just means that we are more willing to put up with crap because we are desperate for the next 'hello I live behind my computer' game to replace something that we lost.. everyone knows that the real money is in phone apps and console games these days.
On one hand I want more population so that our beloved MMORPGs can stay afloat but on the other hand do I really want more people living behind their computer? Its unhealthy... and most people steer clear from time-consuming games.
When people first tried to get me to play EQ I thought they were crazy. You mean you want me to live behind my computer when there are more interesting things to do? It wasn't until I moved out to the middle of nowhere that I turned to MMORPGs for fun... and I did it to socialize with people.
Its a dying market because most people are too healthy to waste time playing a game meant for living behind the computer. In all honesty, would you want your kids wasting away their lives like that? My xgirlfriend used to play WoW with her Dad sometimes and then when we got together she played a more hardcore game aimed for the 'oldschool' players called Darkfall and pretty soon she was online several hours a day and her Dad tried to get her to stop playing it because it seemed like a problem.
People too healthy to waste their lives having fun in a computer game?
Think again. There's a reason Facebook has almost taken over the world. Are you suggesting that's a healthy activity and that all those hundreds of millions of people are particularly healthy when they post about their latest meal or trip to the bathroom?
It's an unattractive market because suits don't have the balls to invest in a vision and roll the dice. People eventually grow tired of repetition - no matter how you package it.
However, sometimes it takes many years before people start wanting something new. Just look at superhero movies. How many years must we endure the same predictable spectacle over and over before people start wanting something new?
Well, we definitely know you weren't around in the 70's, because that "info" had to be pulled from a rather stinky orifice.
Anyway, in order to bet on Pantheon, you have to bet on Brad McQuaid. And that's a suckers bet most people won't ever take again.
Hmmm.... EQ = Success Vanguard (and to be more specific what SIGIL sold to SOE) = Fail
50% success rate is still not bad with MMOs. Of course he did have Smed yelling on him when he wasted too much money there, not sure how it is in the new company.
Brad do have good ideas, the question is if he found a team that can deliver them or if we get another buggy mess like VG. I wouldn't call that a sucker bet anyways unless you state that he must get millions of players, that wont happen.
Be fore 2004 a few million players did play MMOs, not all at the same time and some of them are dead. Certainly are many of them not interested in MMOs anymore.
I do think 1 million potential players exist at least and the competition for those players is none existant by now. there is nothing done in the last 10 years for them up and running. There is also the potential that those players could get some friends or their kids interested but I wouldn't bet on it.
There might be 100 million casual solo players out there (a guess) but there are hundreds of games for them. So making the same game as everyone else and assume a Wow styled success is even a worse bet.
Pantheon is directly aimed for a specific group of players and that actually is a strenght when those players have nothing that isn't 15 years old or worse at the moment. Pantheon still need to be a good game and not too buggy but I do see potential here.
If every other musician tries to be Beiber or Swift the right thing to do is to try something different.
Why did people stop playing those that existed, though?
Games like Vanguard and SWG? Why did people stop playing these games if they're so popular?
They shut down the servers because the number of people playing them weren't sustainable.
Vanguard was rough at launch, but they eventually fixed it up so it was playable - and yet only a tiny portion of players bothered to play it.
We're talking less than 10K players towards the end.
Where were all those 500K+ players that are so ready to support such a design?
However, as I said, I do believe we could potentially see 500K-1M players for a fresh game with a similar design. But that's about the extent of it.
So, I guess we agree on that.
People stopped playing Vanguard, or rather, never really started, because of the not just "rough", but awful launch. Most games only get 1 chance at launching successfully and Vanguard blew it. "Eventually fixed it up" ain't good enough. People had moved on, invested time into other games, and, perhaps more importantly, lost all faith in the devs.
SWG? Really? I thought everyone knew that story? SWG didn't get WoW numbers. I mean, how could it? No game before had gotten WoW numbers and it was unrealistic, especially at the time, to think any other game would or could. SWG didn't get WoW numbers, so it was changed. That still didn't get WoW like numbers and in fact probably lost some, so they changed it again. Completely. About 2 weeks after an expansion. That lost them most of whatever players they had left.
SWG was killed by someone's unrealistic expectations of the numbers of players they would have, and then again by the same idiot's plan to try and get WoW like numbers.
Both games (and arguably all games since WoW) were launched too early. Devs underestimate the time, effort, and therefore cash needed to produce their vision. Investors then get pushy when the devs keep asking for more time and/or money and force the game to release as they expect a return on their investment. Rushed game that is launched too early then gets piss poor reviews, crappy player retention, meaning not enough cash coming in, meaning investors don't give them the resources they need to "fix" the game. Game shuts down, rinse and repeat.
Why did people stop playing those that existed, though?
Games like Vanguard and SWG? Why did people stop playing these games if they're so popular?
They shut down the servers because the number of people playing them weren't sustainable.
Vanguard was rough at launch, but they eventually fixed it up so it was playable - and yet only a tiny portion of players bothered to play it.
We're talking less than 10K players towards the end.
Where were all those 500K+ players that are so ready to support such a design?
However, as I said, I do believe we could potentially see 500K-1M players for a fresh game with a similar design. But that's about the extent of it.
So, I guess we agree on that.
People stopped playing Vanguard, or rather, never really started, because of the not just "rough", but awful launch. Most games only get 1 chance at launching successfully and Vanguard blew it. "Eventually fixed it up" ain't good enough. People had moved on, invested time into other games, and, perhaps more importantly, lost all faith in the devs.
SWG? Really? I thought everyone knew that story? SWG didn't get WoW numbers. I mean, how could it? No game before had gotten WoW numbers and it was unrealistic, especially at the time, to think any other game would or could. SWG didn't get WoW numbers, so it was changed. That still didn't get WoW like numbers and in fact probably lost some, so they changed it again. Completely. About 2 weeks after an expansion. That lost them most of whatever players they had left.
SWG was killed by someone's unrealistic expectations of the numbers of players they would have, and then again by the same idiot's plan to try and get WoW like numbers.
Both games (and arguably all games since WoW) were launched too early. Devs underestimate the time, effort, and therefore cash needed to produce their vision. Investors then get pushy when the devs keep asking for more time and/or money and force the game to release as they expect a return on their investment. Rushed game that is launched too early then gets piss poor reviews, crappy player retention, meaning not enough cash coming in, meaning investors don't give them the resources they need to "fix" the game. Game shuts down, rinse and repeat.
Vanguard got a nice portion of players to buy the initial package - and those players had all the incentive in the world to return to the game after it was fixed up. I know I returned several times - but I ultimately discovered that I preferred the newer way of designing games.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy this theory that fans of old-school wouldn't give the only old-school game on the market a second chance after being fixed up. I know of several old-school fans who kept trying to return - but left unsatisfied, even after it became stable and fully functional.
As for SWG - not only didn't it get WoW numbers - it got so few people that they changed it. However, why did it get so few numbers in the first place? If it was so great?
Again, I don't buy your premise at all. People are more than willing to return to a fixed up game if it fits their criteria. Look at FFIVX for a good example of that.
Some people THINK that there's a huge market for old-school designs - but I say that's an illusion. We're talking a tiny market - because the vast majority of people recognise the time versus reward issue.
In fact, I bet a lot of the people who THINK they want to return to the old ways will change their minds once they wake up.
You got it all wrong DKLond. Maybe NOT ALL wrong but you don't know the chain of events.
So here it is;
Starting around 2004 the next gen wave of mmos began. Now you can understand some overhauling had to be done. I'm not saying the originals were bad, not at all. In fact they were a little before my time, and I missed out. A little lore needed to be added, graphics and animation's needed improvement after all it was now 2004. You should be able to understand, things needed to progress.
The changes in 2004 were largely excepted by the majority.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO SAY THEY WERE STILL MMO'S !
I'll have to name a few, World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, soon after Lord of the Rings Online, and yes Vanguard ( the vision was their )......This era was the big boom !....This is the time mmo's really took off. Everyone flocked in.
However, not only many players jumped on the band wagon, but BIG COMPANIES JUMPED IN FOR PROFET.
Soon we had Warhammer Online, the first failure !!......After that game, BIG COMPANIES decided on their own to make changes. This is when mmos were no longer mmos but online games. They decided they could draw more players with easer solo play to capture everyone. Add a few cartoon videos of castle's blowing up and turn an on line community into a movie. Take the immersion and get rid of it. Replace it with Dungeon Finders to make it EASY.
Later BIG COMPINIES experimented with the Asian trick of Free-to-play, where they can bate players into giving them a little, sucking them in, then charge the hell out of them. This trick was around since 2000 or so, but in the early stages it was ignored, until BIG COMPINIES learned it was very profitable after all........so now that's were we stand.
Big companies realize everyone will play everything as long as you advertise well. After all the big money is up front. That's all that counts is their motto !!!
You got it all wrong DKLond. Maybe NOT ALL wrong but you don't know the chain of events.
So here it is;
Starting around 2004 the next gen wave of mmos began. Now you can understand some overhauling had to be done. I'm not saying the originals were bad, not at all. In fact they were a little before my time, and I missed out. A little lore needed to be added, graphics and animation's needed improvement after all it was now 2004. You should be able to understand, things needed to progress.
The changes in 2004 were largely excepted by the majority.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO SAY THEY WERE STILL MMO'S !
I'll have to name some, World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, soon after Lord of the Rings Online, and yes Vanguard ( the vision was their )......This era was the big boom !....This is the time mmo's took off. Everyone flocked in.
However, not only did we have many players jumping on the band wagon, but BIG COMPANIES JUMPED IN FOR PROFET. Soon we had Warhammer Online, the first failure !!......After that game, BIG COMPANIES decided on their own to make changes. This is when mmos were no longer mmos but online games. They decided they could draw more players with easer solo play to capture everyone. Add a few cartoon videos of castle's blowing up and turn an on line community into a movie. Take the immersion and get rid of it. Replace it with Dungeon Finders to make it EASY.
Later BIG COMPINIES experimented with the Asian trick of Free-to-play, where they can bate players into giving them a little, sucking them in then charge the hell out of them. This trick was around easly around 2000 or so, but in the early stages it was ignored, until BIG COMPINIES learned it was very profitable after all........so now that's were we stand.
Big companies realize everyone will play everything as long as you advertise well. After all the big money is up front. That's all that counts is their motto !!!
I know the history of MMOs - as I've been a follower of the industry for more than 30 years. I started out playing MUDs and then The Realm and UO, so please spare me the lecture
We don't disagree that companies jumped on the WoW bandwagon. No one is arguing against that.
What I'm saying is that WoW demonstrated the appeal of being lenient and forgiving when it comes to game design. Much like people prefer automatic dish washers instead of doing it by hand, (most) people are no longer willing to spend hours recovering their lost XP due to a random lag spike.
Before WoW, people didn't realise the alternative - and most of the people were hardcore gamers. But that segment was never bigger than 500K players. In fact, even the most popular hardcore old-school game out there - EvE Online - can't break that record. Maybe one of the Asian grinders can just about break it - but that market is a very different one, and the mindset of average asian is also completely different from the western mindset.
So why are 100% solid and functional games like EvE not getting a million steady players?
Because the market is much smaller - no matter what you do.
Now, there IS a way to reach, say, a million players - but for that you need to create a 100% solid and polished game (much, much harder than it sounds for a small indie developer) - and you absolutely have to make concessions based on what has happened in the past 12 years in the genre.
There's absolutely no way that a "perfect" copy of Vanguard would get close to 1M players. In fact, I doubt you could get 1M players to buy the box.
No, times have changed - I'm afraid. As for Pantheon? They'll be lucky to break 250K players, frankly.
The market grew during the early WoW era...It was actually a household word, and talks in school yards.
It was BIG !........In fact so big, players will play anything since to capture the first feeling. Marketing keeps players trying to find it. F2P to keep them spending.......Problem is it's not their, hasn't for a long time, people are still trying.......Companies are cashing in on the lack of. However cheap they try, it finally seems to be fading.
Distopia said: Which in DAOC and SWG was almost 100% based around player interaction. The "content" you refer to.. Dungeons, Locations etc... would have been pretty dull without the players you were playing with.
It wasn't fleshed out, it had little in the way of interactivity, etc... It was more or less scenery. The only story it told was what players made of it and used it for.
And that's the Home You Can Never Go Back To Again.
Recreating the game faithfully won't make players younger and eager again. They can't ever give the "gee whiz" back.
And it's a self-limited market of old dudes, and whatever kids poke their noses in curiously. New Players? The "vets" will instantly dislike and pile abuse upon them, and quickly chase them away. "Get off MY lawn, damn kids, this is OUR game."
From a marketing standpoint, it's financial suicide.
Seeing as how there have been no games of the sort, no old dudes are chasing anyone anywhere.
On the contrary, we want everyone to enjoy an mmo based on the principles our first gen MMOs were created on. That is also not to say that we don't want a new game like Pantheon to have revolutionary ideas and innovation, but first and foremost we are concerned that the foundation of such a game be based on the original sound premise (challenge, immersion/realism, community, and multiplayer gameplay). As long as new players coming into those games don't try to impose their mainstream philosophies on us and our game (if and when one arises), there will be no abuse or chasing anyone away.
Well, while there might be a reasonably-sized group of younger players who would enjoy the older design paradigm when they have the chance to try, those market trends towards fast, short games exist for a reason -- the majority(this is not just gamers anymore) likes it.
As for your analogy, that could go completely in the opposite direction of how you wanted it to.
People, at least in the U.S.A., have no choice but to drive cars. It's a necessity of daily life. So, obviously, the only option was to improve the cars.
People couldn't simply quit driving and go out on the water.
With MMOs, however, that is exactly what happened. People stopped driving and grabbed their lifejackets. The aforementioned majority stopped buying cars and demanded more boats.
Now, of course, still exists a minority group that misses those roaring muscle cars with the bad MPG, and are crying for a roaring muscle car with better mileage.
Luckily, there are a few devs like Pantheon's who decided to extend the proverbial olive branch to the muscle car enthusiasts. However, at the end of the day, the boats are still the vehicles that have the masses lining up for passenger cruises.
While I agree with what your saying, I have to disagree that there isn't a significant potential market for "muscle cars" (mmos based on first gen principles) today.
As I have said time and time again, there is simply no data to support whether there would or would not be a lot of people willing to play such a game, because there hasn't been a solid entry of that type in a very long time. The closest one would probably be vanilla WoW, which compared to modern games and current WoW, was much closer to the original ideology we found in first gen games.
We definitely can't argue Vanguard, because if anything, with the game launching broken and a year early, it still managed to sell a quarter of a million boxes.
The fact of the matter is that our modern gaming values simply don't work with the mmorpg. It is a genre that was founded and quite dependent on a highly immersive, highly cooperative and time consuming experience. When you do away with those tenets, you pit the mmo up against hundreds of other games that are more convenient and frankly, more fun.
One important fact that is been touched on slightly here but not fleshed out is the fact that many people quit MMOs and will probably never be back due to the time commitment.
In WoW I was a part of a close knit guild of about 30 hardcore players. My wife and I are still in touch with many of them. Almost all of them have quit MMOs. Not because they suck or because of evil game developers. They quit because of the time required. They have families with kids, jobs, other activities that take up their time. Even my wife, a hard core gamer refuses to turn on another MMO.
Even I avoided MMOs for almost three years primarily because of the time requirements. I played MOBAs and FPS because I could jump in and out.
Many people do not want to commit to a game like they once did in WoW. I currently know more people who played MMOs and say they will never play again based on the time sink then I know people who are currently playing MMOs.
I like MMOs. I am playing one again but I can see that I will be stopping again in the near future because I am once again feeling like it it sucking up too much time.
I don't believe there are millions of people just waiting for a "old school" MMO or even a "new school" MMO. I think it was fun while it lasted but it now more of a niche market.
One important fact that is been touched on slightly here but not fleshed out is the fact that many people quit MMOs and will probably never be back due to the time commitment.
In WoW I was a part of a close knit guild of about 30 hardcore players. My wife and I are still in touch with many of them. Almost all of them have quit MMOs. Not because they suck or because of evil game developers. They quit because of the time required. They have families with kids, jobs, other activities that take up their time. Even my wife, a hard core gamer refuses to turn on another MMO.
Even I avoided MMOs for almost three years primarily because of the time requirements. I played MOBAs and FPS because I could jump in and out.
Many people do not want to commit to a game like they once did in WoW. I currently know more people who played MMOs and say they will never play again based on the time sink then I know people who are currently playing MMOs.
I like MMOs. I am playing one again but I can see that I will be stopping again in the near future because I am once again feeling like it it sucking up too much time.
I don't believe there are millions of people just waiting for a "old school" MMO or even a "new school" MMO. I think it was fun while it lasted but it now more of a niche market.
It is a niche market. How big that niche is is debatable.
There is truth in what you're saying, but my counter-argument would be that I believe many people approach the MMORPG the wrong way. Unlike other genres, to some degree, an mmorpg is often much like the real world: those who excel at whatever it demands, be it the gameplay, the social challenges, or the time devotion, are the most successful.
What some people cannot stand is that they cannot have the same success as another player who is better at the game or willing to devote more time to it. That kind of selfish expectation and entitlement has lead the to rationale that we "all pay the same fee and therefore deserve the same reward." Just as that kind of entitlement leads to horrible consequences in the real world, it has basically destroyed the MMORPG and the reasons many of us played them.
If people can get over those selfish notions, they will enjoy a good mmorpg, even if they aren't "the best." Like I've often said, seldom was I able to play EverQuest as often as I'd of liked. School, work, and real life got in the way. Yet because the game didn't accommodate my inability to play, my achievements were all the more satisfying.
Will a game with that sort of approach ever be the most popular game? Of course not. But at least it will be enjoyable for those who can get over themselves, and find satisfaction in a virtual world, much like the real world, that does not revolve around their personal success.
The thing is, though, that while many of these "cash grab" games aren't very good at all - that, in itself, is not a convincing argument for going back to what people already stopped playing.
I mean, there's clearly a market for games like Pantheon - but it's very small. Millions? Hardly. Maybe one million if it's done right and is released in a polished and finished state, but that's it.
I admit, I haven't been following development very closely, but it certainly looks old to me - both in terms of visuals and design.
To me, there's nothing inherently wrong with repeating the past or sticking with the old ways - but I will never agree it's the best way to approach game development.
I always look for games that take things beyond what we've already seen. Games that are bold enough to genuinely push the mold. No, not innovation for the sake of innovation - but for the sake of improving and expanding upon established designs or paradigms.
People stopped playing them because developers stopped making them, and why did they stop making them? Because developers learned that if they catered to a different crowd they could make WAY more money, the 30 day crowd as the OP pointed out. Its not what gamers asked for, its what developers figured out would draw MORE people, its that simple.
There are still, and yes I would say 500k to a million, MMO gamers lurking and waiting for a developer to sack up and make a traditional MMO.
Pantheon doesn't give two shits about the modern MMO and the modern MMO gamer that make up the numbers, they are making a game for the original players of the genre.
Why did people stop playing those that existed, though?
Games like Vanguard (snip)
Vanguard had a huge launch. I dont know numbers but ALL the starting zones were crowded. They lost most of their population because of buggy coding. The game design was brilliant. The coding of that design sucked badly. They eventually fixed it but it was too late. Once burned, twice shy. Some came back but not enough to pay for development costs of an expansion. Once 99% of the population burned through the original content and had no hope of any new content anytime soon, there was another exodus.
The popular opinion however un spoken, thinks younger players like fast action short games. Well yes !......That's because that's all we have ! Who in their right mind would like to play a revamped broken abomination of something made in 1999. There is nothing to compare for the younger player.
It's like this :
Automobiles back in the 1970s usually only lasted around 60,000 miles. Well, the solution was to make them better, not turn them into boats.
There are millions of us waiting for an mmo. There are millions of younger players too, they just don't know it yet
People, at least in the U.S.A., have no choice but to drive cars. It's a necessity of daily life. So, obviously, the only option was to improve the cars.
I think the main challenge for Pantheon is to find a way to make a challenging game that emphasizes group content without yielding to calls for the many convenience features of modern gaming, but that still recognizes that many first generation vets may no longer be able to make the time commitment they once could.
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I think the main challenge for Pantheon is to find a way to make a challenging game that emphasizes group content without yielding to calls for the many convenience features of modern gaming, but that still recognizes that many first generation vets may no longer be able to make the time commitment they once could.
While that will be a challenge, I think the bigger obstacle, as well as necessity is how they bring folks into the experience. People today are used to being guided through the learning process, they don't feel comfortable (in mass) figuring things out on their own. This can be the most detrimental thing to a new user's experience. This comes far before the need of convenience does, seeking convenience comes after they settle into the experience.
Look at the recent declaration from CCP. They don't have a problem with gaining player's interest, they have a problem with those players sticking around long enough to learn the ins and outs of the game. We see this a lot with BDO as well.
In short people don't spend the time it takes to learn concepts that are foreign to them. If their hand isn't being held they more often than not abandon the process. Not because they're dumb, inferior, or any other chest thumping reasoning one would want to use, it's the simple issue that they get bored..
That's where the obstacle comes from, people that get old school design, also tend to hate hand-holding, tutorials, weak starting areas...etc... That's an interesting dilemma really. As the core of such a game's interest, lies in the latter group, yet no company wants to shut themselves out from gaining the attention of a new generation so to speak.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think the main challenge for Pantheon is to find a way to make a challenging game that emphasizes group content without yielding to calls for the many convenience features of modern gaming, but that still recognizes that many first generation vets may no longer be able to make the time commitment they once could.
I agree with that thought process but with a slight variation.
Us "first gen vets who are no longer able to make the time commitment they once could" have to realize that it is not up to the Pantheon devs to cater to our lack of play time and we need to understand that we might not be able to progress as quickly as we used to in the past. We will have to be content with being behind others in our progression and accept the situation for what it is.
It is more about the acceptance by the older gamers than anything Pantheon could do as a solution.
Topic after topic here on the Pantheon forums refer to the words old school. I use it, you use it, even Pantheon marketing uses it.
I hate the words "old school". It makes something sound old. It makes people think any newer game sound like stick figures and green painted grass.
More recent mmos are audience quick grabs. You know, hit the wallet and run. It's like 30 day mmos are a modern feature as of late. Just because MANY here clam they have a life and no time for immersion doesn't really mean they are the majority !!!!.....Well the majority are gone from this site. I'm a believer in this statement. If you don't have time to play, it's simple your out. The good news is there are over 200 games on the list for you to play at no risk free to play.
Here is another stigma :
The popular opinion however un spoken, thinks younger players like fast action short games. Well yes !......That's because that's all we have ! Who in their right mind would like to play a revamped broken abomination of something made in 1999. There is nothing to compare for the younger player.
It's like this :
Automobiles back in the 1970s usually only lasted around 60,000 miles. Well, the solution was to make them better, not turn them into boats.
There are millions of us waiting for an mmo. There are millions of younger players too, they just don't know it yet
That's all well and good, but Pantheon still has to release. Then, it has to actually.....................deliver.
People stopped playing them because developers stopped making them, and why did they stop making them? Because developers learned that if they catered to a different crowd they could make WAY more money, the 30 day crowd as the OP pointed out. Its not what gamers asked for, its what developers figured out would draw MORE people, its that simple.
There are still, and yes I would say 500k to a million, MMO gamers lurking and waiting for a developer to sack up and make a traditional MMO.
Pantheon doesn't give two shits about the modern MMO and the modern MMO gamer that make up the numbers, they are making a game for the original players of the genre.
Did you read forums back then? Honest question, as there were plenty of posts on MOB grinding getting old, as well as wanting something more in terms of game-play on the PVE front (hence what we know as MMORPG questing becoming a thing).
To me, based on my experience; that was the real game changer here. As with the introduction of such content, and moving forward to it becoming more cinematic/interactive. The real pitfall was, no longer were people beholden to each other to provide each other content. The game now provided content.. Hence we've moved farther and farther away from the idea that the community was the content.
As that was the crux of old-school designs, they all revolved around that idea in different ways.
And that's going to be the biggest issue in bringing these games back, getting people to see that lack of content brings people together to create their own. Rather than them simply thinking this game has no content, it's garbage.
So the founding MMO player base asked developers to move the bar a little bit on stuff like the once every 24 hour mob spawns that resulted in people staying online 24 hours straight, but move it a LITTLE bit, not slide it 180 degrees in the other direction to preschool level game play.
We have now completely eroded the community because now days the community is not required to play the game. We need games where you simply cannot progress at all period without the help of the people around you. If you cant make friends and work with people you simple cant level, that's what Pantheon needs to be.
Automobiles back in the 1970s usually only lasted around 60,000 miles.
Well, we definitely know you weren't around in the 70's, because that "info" had to be pulled from a rather stinky orifice.
Anyway, in order to bet on Pantheon, you have to bet on Brad McQuaid. And that's a suckers bet most people won't ever take again.
Actually, I was around in the 70s, and this comment might be a bit hyperbolic, but isn't all that far off the mark, especially for American cars made back then.
His remarks about MMORPGS turning into something largely recognisable is pretty spot on as well, guess that's why no one outside of wanna be indies are even trying to make them.
Guess we never see any of those 60's and 70's American muscle cars around anymore... Oh..wait... Maybe the majority of your memory/logical reasoning went out the window when you started paying for 9 Eve accounts at a time.
Comments
On topic: I'm feelin' this thread.
My experience in old MMORPG's lies mostly in SWG and DAOC. As well as MMORPG forums.. Not EQ.
When I refer to content, I'm referring to the more story oriented focus of games today. As the games became a lot more focused on that content, they more or less rely on it today. Whereas in games like SWG and DAOC, most player involvement lay in how players came together and the experience we provided one another with. Which in DAOC and SWG was almost 100% based around player interaction. The "content" you refer to.. Dungeons, Locations etc... would have been pretty dull without the players you were playing with.
It wasn't fleshed out, it had little in the way of interactivity, etc... It was more or less scenery. The only story it told was what players made of it and used it for.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Recreating the game faithfully won't make players younger and eager again. They can't ever give the "gee whiz" back.
And it's a self-limited market of old dudes, and whatever kids poke their noses in curiously. New Players? The "vets" will instantly dislike and pile abuse upon them, and quickly chase them away. "Get off MY lawn, damn kids, this is OUR game."
From a marketing standpoint, it's financial suicide.
Games like Vanguard and SWG? Why did people stop playing these games if they're so popular?
They shut down the servers because the number of people playing them weren't sustainable.
Vanguard was rough at launch, but they eventually fixed it up so it was playable - and yet only a tiny portion of players bothered to play it.
We're talking less than 10K players towards the end.
Where were all those 500K+ players that are so ready to support such a design?
However, as I said, I do believe we could potentially see 500K-1M players for a fresh game with a similar design. But that's about the extent of it.
So, I guess we agree on that.
On one hand I want more population so that our beloved MMORPGs can stay afloat but on the other hand do I really want more people living behind their computer? Its unhealthy... and most people steer clear from time-consuming games.
When people first tried to get me to play EQ I thought they were crazy. You mean you want me to live behind my computer when there are more interesting things to do? It wasn't until I moved out to the middle of nowhere that I turned to MMORPGs for fun... and I did it to socialize with people.
Its a dying market because most people are too healthy to waste time playing a game meant for living behind the computer. In all honesty, would you want your kids wasting away their lives like that? My xgirlfriend used to play WoW with her Dad sometimes and then when we got together she played a more hardcore game aimed for the 'oldschool' players called Darkfall and pretty soon she was online several hours a day and her Dad tried to get her to stop playing it because it seemed like a problem.
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Think again. There's a reason Facebook has almost taken over the world. Are you suggesting that's a healthy activity and that all those hundreds of millions of people are particularly healthy when they post about their latest meal or trip to the bathroom?
It's an unattractive market because suits don't have the balls to invest in a vision and roll the dice. People eventually grow tired of repetition - no matter how you package it.
However, sometimes it takes many years before people start wanting something new. Just look at superhero movies. How many years must we endure the same predictable spectacle over and over before people start wanting something new?
EQ = Success
Vanguard (and to be more specific what SIGIL sold to SOE) = Fail
50% success rate is still not bad with MMOs. Of course he did have Smed yelling on him when he wasted too much money there, not sure how it is in the new company.
Brad do have good ideas, the question is if he found a team that can deliver them or if we get another buggy mess like VG. I wouldn't call that a sucker bet anyways unless you state that he must get millions of players, that wont happen.
Be fore 2004 a few million players did play MMOs, not all at the same time and some of them are dead. Certainly are many of them not interested in MMOs anymore.
I do think 1 million potential players exist at least and the competition for those players is none existant by now. there is nothing done in the last 10 years for them up and running. There is also the potential that those players could get some friends or their kids interested but I wouldn't bet on it.
There might be 100 million casual solo players out there (a guess) but there are hundreds of games for them. So making the same game as everyone else and assume a Wow styled success is even a worse bet.
Pantheon is directly aimed for a specific group of players and that actually is a strenght when those players have nothing that isn't 15 years old or worse at the moment. Pantheon still need to be a good game and not too buggy but I do see potential here.
If every other musician tries to be Beiber or Swift the right thing to do is to try something different.
SWG? Really? I thought everyone knew that story? SWG didn't get WoW numbers. I mean, how could it? No game before had gotten WoW numbers and it was unrealistic, especially at the time, to think any other game would or could. SWG didn't get WoW numbers, so it was changed. That still didn't get WoW like numbers and in fact probably lost some, so they changed it again. Completely. About 2 weeks after an expansion. That lost them most of whatever players they had left.
SWG was killed by someone's unrealistic expectations of the numbers of players they would have, and then again by the same idiot's plan to try and get WoW like numbers.
Both games (and arguably all games since WoW) were launched too early. Devs underestimate the time, effort, and therefore cash needed to produce their vision. Investors then get pushy when the devs keep asking for more time and/or money and force the game to release as they expect a return on their investment. Rushed game that is launched too early then gets piss poor reviews, crappy player retention, meaning not enough cash coming in, meaning investors don't give them the resources they need to "fix" the game. Game shuts down, rinse and repeat.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy this theory that fans of old-school wouldn't give the only old-school game on the market a second chance after being fixed up. I know of several old-school fans who kept trying to return - but left unsatisfied, even after it became stable and fully functional.
As for SWG - not only didn't it get WoW numbers - it got so few people that they changed it. However, why did it get so few numbers in the first place? If it was so great?
Again, I don't buy your premise at all. People are more than willing to return to a fixed up game if it fits their criteria. Look at FFIVX for a good example of that.
Some people THINK that there's a huge market for old-school designs - but I say that's an illusion. We're talking a tiny market - because the vast majority of people recognise the time versus reward issue.
In fact, I bet a lot of the people who THINK they want to return to the old ways will change their minds once they wake up.
You got it all wrong DKLond. Maybe NOT ALL wrong but you don't know the chain of events.
So here it is;
Starting around 2004 the next gen wave of mmos began. Now you can understand some overhauling had to be done. I'm not saying the originals were bad, not at all. In fact they were a little before my time, and I missed out. A little lore needed to be added, graphics and animation's needed improvement after all it was now 2004. You should be able to understand, things needed to progress.
The changes in 2004 were largely excepted by the majority.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO SAY THEY WERE STILL MMO'S !
I'll have to name a few, World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, soon after Lord of the Rings Online, and yes Vanguard ( the vision was their )......This era was the big boom !....This is the time mmo's really took off. Everyone flocked in.
However, not only many players jumped on the band wagon, but BIG COMPANIES JUMPED IN FOR PROFET.
Soon we had Warhammer Online, the first failure !!......After that game, BIG COMPANIES decided on their own to make changes. This is when mmos were no longer mmos but online games. They decided they could draw more players with easer solo play to capture everyone. Add a few cartoon videos of castle's blowing up and turn an on line community into a movie. Take the immersion and get rid of it. Replace it with Dungeon Finders to make it EASY.
Later BIG COMPINIES experimented with the Asian trick of Free-to-play, where they can bate players into giving them a little, sucking them in, then charge the hell out of them. This trick was around since 2000 or so, but in the early stages it was ignored, until BIG COMPINIES learned it was very profitable after all........so now that's were we stand.
Big companies realize everyone will play everything as long as you advertise well. After all the big money is up front. That's all that counts is their motto !!!
We don't disagree that companies jumped on the WoW bandwagon. No one is arguing against that.
What I'm saying is that WoW demonstrated the appeal of being lenient and forgiving when it comes to game design. Much like people prefer automatic dish washers instead of doing it by hand, (most) people are no longer willing to spend hours recovering their lost XP due to a random lag spike.
Before WoW, people didn't realise the alternative - and most of the people were hardcore gamers. But that segment was never bigger than 500K players. In fact, even the most popular hardcore old-school game out there - EvE Online - can't break that record. Maybe one of the Asian grinders can just about break it - but that market is a very different one, and the mindset of average asian is also completely different from the western mindset.
So why are 100% solid and functional games like EvE not getting a million steady players?
Because the market is much smaller - no matter what you do.
Now, there IS a way to reach, say, a million players - but for that you need to create a 100% solid and polished game (much, much harder than it sounds for a small indie developer) - and you absolutely have to make concessions based on what has happened in the past 12 years in the genre.
There's absolutely no way that a "perfect" copy of Vanguard would get close to 1M players. In fact, I doubt you could get 1M players to buy the box.
No, times have changed - I'm afraid. As for Pantheon? They'll be lucky to break 250K players, frankly.
The market grew during the early WoW era...It was actually a household word, and talks in school yards.
It was BIG !........In fact so big, players will play anything since to capture the first feeling. Marketing keeps players trying to find it. F2P to keep them spending.......Problem is it's not their, hasn't for a long time, people are still trying.......Companies are cashing in on the lack of. However cheap they try, it finally seems to be fading.
On the contrary, we want everyone to enjoy an mmo based on the principles our first gen MMOs were created on. That is also not to say that we don't want a new game like Pantheon to have revolutionary ideas and innovation, but first and foremost we are concerned that the foundation of such a game be based on the original sound premise (challenge, immersion/realism, community, and multiplayer gameplay). As long as new players coming into those games don't try to impose their mainstream philosophies on us and our game (if and when one arises), there will be no abuse or chasing anyone away.
As I have said time and time again, there is simply no data to support whether there would or would not be a lot of people willing to play such a game, because there hasn't been a solid entry of that type in a very long time. The closest one would probably be vanilla WoW, which compared to modern games and current WoW, was much closer to the original ideology we found in first gen games.
We definitely can't argue Vanguard, because if anything, with the game launching broken and a year early, it still managed to sell a quarter of a million boxes.
The fact of the matter is that our modern gaming values simply don't work with the mmorpg. It is a genre that was founded and quite dependent on a highly immersive, highly cooperative and time consuming experience. When you do away with those tenets, you pit the mmo up against hundreds of other games that are more convenient and frankly, more fun.
In WoW I was a part of a close knit guild of about 30 hardcore players. My wife and I are still in touch with many of them. Almost all of them have quit MMOs. Not because they suck or because of evil game developers. They quit because of the time required. They have families with kids, jobs, other activities that take up their time. Even my wife, a hard core gamer refuses to turn on another MMO.
Even I avoided MMOs for almost three years primarily because of the time requirements. I played MOBAs and FPS because I could jump in and out.
Many people do not want to commit to a game like they once did in WoW. I currently know more people who played MMOs and say they will never play again based on the time sink then I know people who are currently playing MMOs.
I like MMOs. I am playing one again but I can see that I will be stopping again in the near future because I am once again feeling like it it sucking up too much time.
I don't believe there are millions of people just waiting for a "old school" MMO or even a "new school" MMO. I think it was fun while it lasted but it now more of a niche market.
There is truth in what you're saying, but my counter-argument would be that I believe many people approach the MMORPG the wrong way. Unlike other genres, to some degree, an mmorpg is often much like the real world: those who excel at whatever it demands, be it the gameplay, the social challenges, or the time devotion, are the most successful.
What some people cannot stand is that they cannot have the same success as another player who is better at the game or willing to devote more time to it. That kind of selfish expectation and entitlement has lead the to rationale that we "all pay the same fee and therefore deserve the same reward." Just as that kind of entitlement leads to horrible consequences in the real world, it has basically destroyed the MMORPG and the reasons many of us played them.
If people can get over those selfish notions, they will enjoy a good mmorpg, even if they aren't "the best." Like I've often said, seldom was I able to play EverQuest as often as I'd of liked. School, work, and real life got in the way. Yet because the game didn't accommodate my inability to play, my achievements were all the more satisfying.
Will a game with that sort of approach ever be the most popular game? Of course not. But at least it will be enjoyable for those who can get over themselves, and find satisfaction in a virtual world, much like the real world, that does not revolve around their personal success.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Look at the recent declaration from CCP. They don't have a problem with gaining player's interest, they have a problem with those players sticking around long enough to learn the ins and outs of the game. We see this a lot with BDO as well.
In short people don't spend the time it takes to learn concepts that are foreign to them. If their hand isn't being held they more often than not abandon the process. Not because they're dumb, inferior, or any other chest thumping reasoning one would want to use, it's the simple issue that they get bored..
That's where the obstacle comes from, people that get old school design, also tend to hate hand-holding, tutorials, weak starting areas...etc... That's an interesting dilemma really. As the core of such a game's interest, lies in the latter group, yet no company wants to shut themselves out from gaining the attention of a new generation so to speak.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Us "first gen vets who are no longer able to make the time commitment they once could" have to realize that it is not up to the Pantheon devs to cater to our lack of play time and we need to understand that we might not be able to progress as quickly as we used to in the past. We will have to be content with being behind others in our progression and accept the situation for what it is.
It is more about the acceptance by the older gamers than anything Pantheon could do as a solution.
We have now completely eroded the community because now days the community is not required to play the game. We need games where you simply cannot progress at all period without the help of the people around you. If you cant make friends and work with people you simple cant level, that's what Pantheon needs to be.