No free to play option?

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Comments

  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin BelgradeMember RarePosts: 972
    Based on some hints, subs will likely be in $10 range.

    PS Subs are, in general, helpful against spammers, gold farmers, bots, hackers / cheaters, multiboxers, 10 YOs and all that FTP sexiness.
    I wish that were true but I can't think of one MMO that had a sub that didn't have problems with all that stuff you named.  WoW, Aion, L2, SWG, SWTOR, and others I've played when they had subs all had problems.

     One GM in ESO said that some countries get a full refund if their account gets banned.  I do think gold sellers in general make more then enough to pay subs and employ rooms full of botters.  

    One gold seller interviewed on youtube received his computer training in the US and returned to his home country to become a gold seller because he said he made more money that way then at a regular industry job. 
    I never said that CU won't have any problems of these kinds.

    Realizer said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scambug said:
    Scorchien said:
    there is no way this game survives without a F2P option and cash shop ....look for it 6-8 months after release
    Perhaps you're forgetting that this game is entirely crowd funded. I doubt the people who already put down money will back out  because of a sub they've known about the entire time. I also doubt the game will need more than the initial backers playing to be perfectly healthy and profitable.
    This isn't Blizzard, they don't need 300 packed servers to stay afloat.

    I think you are forgetting MJ and his track record , 2.2 million is no where near enough to see his erhmmmm vision to light , he will release a buggy incomplete product lacking in proposed features , and will need to bring in more income to attempt o finish his game .. But the untimley result will be devs spending time and resources producing Cash Shop vainty items instead of fixing the games many bugs , as the backers get further and further disenchanted with his erhmmm vision ....

      He couldnt complete Wahammer with the monster EA backing him with nearly unlimited funds...
    <snip> CU has a smaller more experienced team, with $6 million total budget so far <snip>
    Based on what I know, the budget is just above $7M (freshly dinged sometime in February - 3.125M from mark & other investors plus the pledgemeter), and I'd say it will land in $9-10M range before launch.
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 664
    Scorchien said:
    Yes , mark and his famous videos , he has some very notable Warhammer videos also , promising so much , features and great classes , mechanics and crafting , we were all so hyped , his words were inspiring, and then It released .. broken , void of clsses , entire cities forgotten , features missing and the worst crafting known to the MMO community , then 2 years more of videos and promises .. and failed to deliver any of it , many bugs that were in the CB were still in game at its closing .. and more new bugs .. end game city sieges that brought more bugs .. and broken content ...

      But yes Marks videos are(/sarcasm) something to jump at with blind faith ... He needs to prove his words this time ..
     Honestly, I don't think Mark has over-hyped this game in his progress update videos at all. Yes Warhammer had issues, he learned how to not run a game during Warhammer. From what I've seen in all the videos I've watched on CU Mark seems to keep things very real. If there's an issue such as lack of staff ect. He talks about it, and addresses the plan to fix it. Right now it seems they have met most of the major money goals they needed to hit. It also seems they have a decent staff at the moment, hence their decision to crunch till beta. 

     We really won't even know much of how the game will play till we get to beta anyway, all the races and classes have been mostly placeholder during alpha. They are now designing the actual classes/races we will get in the final product, minus the polish of course, animation polish comes after fun gameplay is worked out.

     To say the game is going to fail at this point would be a shot in the dark, because we don't really know how it's going to turn out yet. It could be amazingly fun, even with subpar graphics, and end up with many more players than projected. Or it could flop, and end up with half the players projected. Either way it turns out the game will stay alive for a while given the business model.  After it's built they could run the game with half the original team, and still probably get small content updates out.

     Again for clarification, I'm not saying one way, or the other, if I think the game will make enough money to pump out tons of updates and content.  I'm not sure, but what I am sure about is it shouldn't take much money to keep it running once it launches. If it ends up with a decent amount of players though, it could be great, as long as it's fun.
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid GinnungagapMember EpicPosts: 8,671
    While i dont have plans to play this game i would rather it stays subscription only and no F2P, provided they offer enough quality content to justify the sub.

    With that said, every game should have a limited time trial. People shouldn't be forced to buy a product/service without trying it first. Even a 1 or 2 day trial is enough. Purchasing a game just to see if you like it is idiotic.

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  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    edited March 2016
    Scorchien said:
    Yes , mark and his famous videos , he has some very notable Warhammer videos also , promising so much , features and great classes , mechanics and crafting , we were all so hyped , his words were inspiring, and then It released .. broken , void of clsses , entire cities forgotten , features missing and the worst crafting known to the MMO community , then 2 years more of videos and promises .. and failed to deliver any of it , many bugs that were in the CB were still in game at its closing .. and more new bugs .. end game city sieges that brought more bugs .. and broken content ...

      But yes Marks videos are(/sarcasm) something to jump at with blind faith ... He needs to prove his words this time ..
    At least when you attack me, please focus on the facts. How can I be to blame for videos, decisions, etc. made after I left?  I really don't mind when people come at me with facts, that's your right. But to blame me for things that happened afterward, is just silly, especially when a lot of the decisions that were made were couched by some of the new leadership as things that I wouldn't let them do. Have you heard anybody else who was involved with WAR ever take the blame? Nope, and you most likely never will. Yet, I'm here and on other forums, happily taking criticism and trying to talk with people such as yourselves and I'm not even in fund-raising or marketing mode. :)

    And while I've said time after time that I'm willing to take even more than my share of blame, I was still an employee of EA and I was the only member of senior leadership at Mythic that thought WAR should have been delayed again. Yeah, crafting was crap, it wasn't what I laid out but the fault is still mine because I was in charge of the team and the guy who did the heavy lifting wasn't given enough support and again, I'll take the fall for that. I've also said that I made the call to scrap the other city because it would have delayed the game even further and another delay was unacceptable to EA. 

    But please, you should also be willing to acknowledge the great things that were in WAR and even with its issues, it still was a profit center for EA and more than paid back the investment. Criticism is fine, even if tinged with a lot of subjectivity, but to say that WAR was all crap, and everything that happened before, during, after it launched, and after I left, is all my fault makes your argument just seem like hate as opposed to justifiable criticism. I'm happy to own up to the later, but the former, well, it wouldn't matter what I say or do.

    And yes, I did also try to push the marketing end of WAR, both with my videos and those of other people but that was my job and it was expected of me by EA. But, as I've also said before, EA never told me to lie, and I never did, nor would I ever encourage any who has ever worked for me to do so either. I believed every word I ever uttered about WAR and all of it was based on what I was seeing in the game, and what the 200+ developers who were working on the game were telling me. Again, this is not, in any way, to deflect responsibility but if part of my job is to push the marketing end while I was an employee of another company, it seems a little mean-spirited to criticize me/us for doing our jobs as long as we told the truth doesn't it?


    Post edited by MarkJacobs on

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 664
     For me, I can tell Mark cares about this game, and in my opinion a subscription is a good way to go. It allows them to focus on adding meaningful game content, instead of spending their time on fluff for us to buy. I'm waiting till I actually get to play a beta form of the game to cast judgment. Because right now all we've seen is engine performance with placeholder classes. The only thing that bothered me about Alpha was the silly waddle looking walk animation most races had, I'm sure that will get fixed.

     I think the folks at CSE are fully capable of making the game fun, and that's really all I care about. There's a load of pretty games out there, that are totally boring. A step back to fun, instead of what's quickly becoming the standard snooze-fest is what I'm hoping for with CU.
  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin BelgradeMember RarePosts: 972
    I stopped explaining what happened to WAR long time ago, people tend to ignore it and then, a month or two later, just get back with same copy-pasted nonsense.
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 3,941
    Scorchien said:
    Yes , mark and his famous videos , he has some very notable Warhammer videos also , promising so much , features and great classes , mechanics and crafting , we were all so hyped , his words were inspiring, and then It released .. broken , void of clsses , entire cities forgotten , features missing and the worst crafting known to the MMO community , then 2 years more of videos and promises .. and failed to deliver any of it , many bugs that were in the CB were still in game at its closing .. and more new bugs .. end game city sieges that brought more bugs .. and broken content ...

      But yes Marks videos are(/sarcasm) something to jump at with blind faith ... He needs to prove his words this time ..
    At least when you attack me, please focus on the facts. How can I be to blame for videos, decisions, etc. made after I left?  I really don't mind when people come at me with facts, that's your right. But to blame me for things that happened afterward, is just silly, especially when a lot of the decisions that were made were couched by some of the new leadership as things that I wouldn't let them do. Have you heard anybody else who was involved with WAR ever take the blame? Nope, and you most likely never will. Yet, I'm here and on other forums, happily taking criticism and trying to talk with people such as yourselves and I'm not even in fund-raising or marketing mode. :)

    And while I've said time after time that I'm willing to take even more than my share of blame, I was still an employee of EA and I was the only member of senior leadership at Mythic that thought WAR should have been delayed again. Yeah, crafting was crap, it wasn't what I laid out but the fault is still mine because I was in charge of the team and the guy who did the heavy lifting wasn't given enough support and again, I'll take the fall for that. I've also said that I made the call to scrap the other city because it would have delayed the game even further and another delay was unacceptable to EA. 

    But please, you should also be willing to acknowledge the great things that were in WAR and even with its issues, it still was a profit center for EA and more than paid back the investment. Criticism is fine, even if tinged with a lot of subjectivity, but to say that WAR was all crap, and everything that happened before, during, after it launched, and after I left, is all my fault makes your argument just seem like hate as opposed to justifiable criticism. I'm happy to own up to the later, but the former, well, it wouldn't matter what I say or do.

    And yes, I did also try to push the marketing end of WAR, both with my videos and those of other people but that was my job and it was expected of me by EA. But, as I've also said before, EA never told me to lie, and I never did, nor would I ever encourage any who has ever worked for me to do so either. I believed every word I ever uttered about WAR and all of it was based on what I was seeing in the game, and what the 200+ developers who were working on the game were telling me. Again, this is not, in any way, to deflect responsibility but if part of my job is to push the marketing end while I was an employee of another company, it seems a little mean-spirited to criticize me/us for doing our jobs as long as we told the truth doesn't it?


    At least when you attack me please focus on the facts(see how playing the victim works lol ) ... Show me where i said it was all crap ... you cant cause i never said it ...

       And thru all its faults , i played War from launch to its close , got to RR 93 in full Soverign ,and my statue stood in Altdorf for months at one time..

      It doesnt change any of the facts , you and EA failed miserably with an IP that should of been a slam-dunk and still be thriving game today ..
      would you like me to link your Crafting videos then you can tell us again how it wasnt what you laid out , So either you were lying in those videos or lying now .. you choose..

       Or the class videos or the dropped cities ..  Your marketing videos were deceptive ,and got many folks to preorder and buy in ... then a 3rd of the game wasnt delivered ... and again you sure seemed like you believed what you were selling , but maybe then that is a reflection of you really not knowing what you were selling then , So either you believed it or didnt really know what you were representing .. you choose ..

     look man , i hope you succeed with CU .. but like i said .. you need to prove it this time .. before me and many others buy in ..  

       WAggagggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Member RarePosts: 4,319
    edited March 2016
    Cramit845 said:
    I think your idea is interesting but kinda doubt they will go that route.  I like the sub model, just not sure if the price is worth the $15 a month.  I think sub based games really need to consider their prices.  I would think they would realize that $15 a month is considered a "premium" in terms of sub's and that maybe dropping it to like $10 or something around there would be a bit more beneficial, since the barrier for entry would be a bit less.  Then again, $5 isn't that much but I think a lower sub would do better to allow more folks in to try the game instead of the system suggested above.
    This thread, imo, is moot imo. I have a real concern about Camelot Unchained business models - plural.

    First though so much angst from some people about f2p. It is not a cancer; it is not a scam; it is a business model. I could suggest that WoW's subscription is a scam since most of the time you get nothing; same happened to WS and TESO followed the slippery slope, SWTOR etc. It is not however it is simply a business model. And - in the interests of completeness - the same is true of pure B2P.

    And in "the good old days" we / you paid for the box, you paid for the extra content and you paid a sub as well. The good charge you once, charge you twice and then charge you three times for good measure.

    But why suggest $15 a month. Such freeloaders who won't consider paying Colleky's measly $8 for a drink a day - so $240 a month. What you think that's to much - get a proper job .....see what I did there? Or maybe ..... as Cramit845 basically says it is about companies - any company or shop - offering "worth".


    And collectively the issues around them lead to my "really big" concern

    The hardcore rump - possibly those banging on about having a sub - are probably the ones who will support the lifetime option. As a result they will be paying a ZERO subscription. Hence the thread being moot. For them there will be no sub it will be a B2P game. However they will probably expect all the benefits of a sub!

    The non-hardcore folk will either not buy the game - because it has a sub - or buy it and then dump it after 1 month or 3. And lets not pretend that that won't happen and there will be a dedicated following ..... remember the dedicated following have already bought the lifetime sub.

    Result: a sub based game with lifetime players but potentially zero subscribers. Ouch. Warning Will Robinson!  

    I would be much happier with a single model focused on a "high" cost to buy the game - box price + $190 + $25 say which includes a 1 year "sub" say. And after 1 year they would need to pay another $25 say. Backers wouldn't pay the extra $25s (or whatever) so they would get a benefit.   

    Now that would generate an issue of backers who - maybe - couldn't pay $190 upfront. Maybe they could pay $15 a month and after 13 months say they are given Lifetime Subscriber status. Non-backers - maybe they get this option as well, after so many subs they become lifetime an extra month or two maybe. (And they would have to pay the annual charge.)

    There is a need to be creative. Companies need money but the sub model - as was - is all but dead. And remember Camelot Unchained hardcore fans will be paying a ZERO sub - so something creative needs to happen imo.
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
  • AnnaTSAnnaTS ManchesterMember UncommonPosts: 475
    I was interested in this game until i found out the lack of PVE and i accept that but i didn't go round saying  oh this game is damned because it doesn't have PVE for me i just looked for another game same if you don't like the subscription model there is plenty of FTP games out there but maybe they might add a free trial at some point but you might have to wait.
  • F2PlagueF2Plague Toronto, ONMember UncommonPosts: 87
    My name says it all. Free to play is infecting the MMO genre like a plague. Not only does a subscription keep trouble makers and gold spammers to a minimum. But it also improves the community quite a bit in MOST cases. But the biggest reason for my support of the subscription model is cash shops. Cash shops in any free to play MMO are over bearing. Game companies like Trion think they are creating new content every time they put new cash shop items into the market place. Black Desert is shaping up to be the same thing with its $32USD costumes what a time we live in. Free to play has also created an opportunity for players with large amounts of money to burn the ability to funnel that money into a game and sell f2p players a sub to the game. This is game breaking seriously, when one player can afford to put thousands into a game for Apex and turn it into in game currency. This man now owns the world or is at least in a power struggle with other big shots who see no issue with spending that much on a game that will die in 4 months anyways because they have just broke the game. Crowfall which I was slightly interested in is going to be doing this option allowing people to sell VIP membership. Now the only game on my radar is CU. Whenever the day comes that CU is released I am sure I will be let down as well.
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways BangladeshMember RarePosts: 2,560
    They should just keep an unlimited trial system like WoW, keep trial player abilities stopped at rank 2 or something and maximum ability they can get at 10 or something. And any other restriction that suits the game.

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  • jesteralwaysjesteralways BangladeshMember RarePosts: 2,560
    PS Subs are, in general, helpful against spammers, gold farmers, bots, hackers / cheaters, multiboxers, 10 YOs and all that FTP sexiness.
    World of warcraft says "hello".

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  • ScambugScambug EUMember UncommonPosts: 574
    gervaise1 said:
    There is a need to be creative. Companies need money but the sub model - as was - is all but dead. And remember Camelot Unchained hardcore fans will be paying a ZERO sub - so something creative needs to happen imo.
    What makes you think most fans will buy a lifetime sub? That's nonsense.
    CU is the only game I'm looking forward to atm (so I guess that makes me a fan) yet I have absolutely no intention of spending a dime on it before it releases. If/when it eventually does I'll just get the good old recurring monthly sub as will most players, I presume. Maybe a recurring 3 month if I really like the game and the option exists but that's really it.
    There's nothing wrong with the sub model, never has been. Games that die off fast do so because either they have no lasting value (you get all the fun they have to offer within the first couple months) or they're just total garbage.
    If a product is good there will always be someone to buy it, rent it, lease it or subscribe to it.
    When a product is mediocre yeah, that's when you need to get creative.


  • LoudWisperLoudWisper Member UncommonPosts: 73
    I am going to show my age a little here and and for the first time I think that my ears are hearing I am old.  But this expectation of free play is just absurd and gotten out of hand.  I have played mmo's for a long time.  In the beginning when I was paying my monthly fee, I knew the company was making money but it was also paying employees for customer service, patches, updates and upcoming content.  Not to mention servers and sever storage.  When things started really going south for mmo's was when people did not want to pay.  When a company tried to lure players over here because you do  not have to pay monthly.  Then the other company had to up that.  Then all of a sudden people realized they spend more on cosmetic things and other things from the store that the monthly fee that you used to pay in the first place and stopped buying things. 

    Now everyone complains  customer service sucks, patches suck and are buggy, not enough expansions and everything is pay to win.  This is the world you wanted with free to play. 

    A company does not make something and spend millions just for customers to be happy.  There needs to be a return of investment.  If there is no return they will stop making it.  If there is not enough money to make over % of money on top of the cost a month they pay, they will cut employees.  In every business this happens from Hospitals to McDonald's. 

    Is there a better way than monthly fee.  I am not sure.  What I am sure of is that from my point of views that is were mmo's started going south.  What you need to find is a games that makes you happy and enjoy playing.  And people need to stop looking ahead saying owe when that comes out it will rock.  One thing I learned is it very rarely does. 
  • SoarlozerSoarlozer Pitt, CAMember UncommonPosts: 60
    Terrible idea. A game is either revolves around B2P/F2P (I group them together because they make money off microtransactions instead of subs, usually B2P offers lots of little cosmetics as opposed to game features (well any decent B2P game that is) or it revolves around subs.

    If you want a 7 day trial or something cool, but a game offering players to max out and continually play with people that sub and bought the game and the only inconvience is QoL stuff (like inventory space or log in priority) sounds like a terrible business plan. You may say wait but this B2P or this F2P does it, well I bet that game has a lot of in game store stuff which I would never play a sub based game with a in game shop. 


  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,613
    Ledrir said:
    I have heard that there is no free to play option and I am a little concerned about this.  I realize that some people see this as a cover charge that keeps out the trouble makers.  Maybe that is true, however I wonder how many people will pay $15 without some way of trying the game out to see if they like it.

    What if the free to play players were used in a way that strengthens the game?  I do not know what the max player limit for a server is but lets say its a little over 3000.  However, during some parts of the day the server will have less than 2000 players on it?  CSE could allow free to play players to log in to any server that has less than 2000 currently playing on it.  If the population goes over 2000 then no new free to play players can log on.  If the server goes over 2500 then the game forces free to players on over 3 hours to log out.

    This would help in two ways.  It would give people a chance to try the game out for free to see if they like it.  It would also help to prop up populations on any server that is currently below its desired player size.



    I don't want the freeloaders to have a game.
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  • meddyckmeddyck USAMember UncommonPosts: 1,217
    I think lifetime subbers are really a non-issue. If the population drops down to where they make up most of the playerbase, it will be because the game has turned out to be really bad and not fun to where most players don't feel it is worth paying a monthly sub. At that point it would have been doomed to fail anyway regardless of payment model.

    The # of players who have bought lifetime subs already is probably not all that high anyway. Even if the game turns out to be awesome and a bunch more backers end up buying lifetime subs, I still highly doubt it would be a big enough number of players to impact CSE's ability to maintain and improve on the game for years.

    FWIW I haven't even bought a lifetime sub yet. It's something I'd consider much later in development when it becomes clear how the game actually plays and how fun it is (for me), but we are a long way from that time right now.

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  • Ammon777_newAmmon777_new Member UncommonPosts: 306
    I vote for subscription-based MMORPG any day. I have always hated free-to-play with a passion, it ruins games.
  • MoiraeMoirae New Orleans, LAMember RarePosts: 3,219
    edited March 2016
    baphamet said:

    Moirae said:
    Why concerned? F2p is part of what is wrong with the gaming world now. There have been whole articles on how it, and theme park MMO"s, have started the downfall of the genre. 
    even though i agree with your F2P view, other non sandbox type games are not doing the genre any better. it's all been done before just with a twist, that's the problem.
    Exactly, that is the problem. Because the devs still aren't getting it. Every single aspect of these games can be done way better, but they aren't doing it. They are doing most things to less of an extent than they were ten years ago but the graphics better and then whining because they can't impress people with graphics anymore. There are things in these old games that people really loved. Just look at how much people have raved about the housing in swg and eq2, the crafting in swg, etc. Why would a game company not expand on that to make it even better but cut back on it instead? It doesn't make sense other than that these games have become a quick cash grab and nothing else. This genre held so much promise. Now it's the single player games that are bothering to innovate and offer more. The online games have become a joke, even the ones that have had many millions spent on them and years spent to develop them. 

    And to those that say you can't be everything to every body, I say there is no reason not to even bother trying to be more than just the most basic offered. 

    I work in the hotel industry. We COULD just offer a room for a cheap price and nothing else. Then charge for the mattress, blankets, pillows,  towels, soap, shampoo, conditioner, water, etc. You know what those are called? Hostels. Great if you want virtually nothing and to be nickle and dimed to death for everything else. All while you're staying in one room with 9 other people and taking a chance you'll be raped or have everything with you stolen. Most people would rather pay more in a lump sum so they don't have to worry about it. You'll pay $30 a night for a reason. 

    The hotel I'm working at right now offers not only the room but brand new mattresses, everything you could need including things like towels, blanket, pillows, and soap, but also  new 32 inch flat screen televisions in each room, free local calls, working elevators rather than stairs (though there are stairs if you want them), a complimentary hot breakfast, complimentary pool, complimentary fitness center, complimentary wireless (though if you want movie watching quality it's $5 per night), bicycle rentals, and an excellent lounge.

    Would you rather pay nothing and get nothing or pay more and get everything included instead of being nickle and dimed to death for the tiniest things? I'd rather pay the $150. 

    Trust me when I say that you don't want to stay at a place that charges you $30 a night.
    Post edited by Moirae on
  • Falcor87Falcor87 Member UncommonPosts: 10
    I vote for subscription-based MMORPG any day. I have always hated free-to-play with a passion, it ruins games.
    I agree with this. I'm mostly a PvE'er and I'm looking forward to this game simply because of the business model. I probably won't be investing in their pre-order option, but I will at least be following this game closely, looking for updates and anticipating its launch date.
  • BrenicsBrenics Warren, MIMember RarePosts: 1,939
    F2P and B2P in mmo's has ruined the games. The day they go back to P2P is the day mmo's will make a comeback.

    Look at ESO they have ruined the game by ignoring game breaking bugs and lag issues. LOTRO was ruined by F2P and getting way out of hand with store by even going after people that sub.

    SWTOR at least is attempting to get back to P2P with the new content.

    If you take a hard look and complaints with these games you will notice it all started with F2P. IMO!
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  • DahkohtDahkoht Pelham, ALMember UncommonPosts: 479
    I and many others put in hundreds for the Kickstarter precisely because of things like sub based with no cash shop and actual set servers and other old school type ideas.

    There is no shortage of F2P games out there , let us have the one or two we want to be sub based and zero cash shops.

    Go do your own Kickstarter for a F2P game and see how that works out.
  • collektcollekt Member UncommonPosts: 318
    gervaise1 said:
    But why suggest $15 a month. Such freeloaders who won't consider paying Colleky's measly $8 for a drink a day - so $240 a month. What you think that's to much - get a proper job .....see what I did there?
    lol what in the world are you trying to say? I was pointing out that people will pay $8 for one drink which is over half the cost of a game, which will bring you lots of hours of entertainment over an entire month. Yet they still complain about $15/month being too much and making them feel like they "have to play". I was illustrating that $15 is a very small amount of money in the span of a month. It's like 50 cents per day. I don't know why you're talking about $8/day and $240/month.
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomeMember UncommonPosts: 3,820
    I hope for you guys this game will not have a cash shop. In my experience sub based is never a guarantee for that. Or a guarantee that there will be no goldsellers or trolls.
  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,323
    DAOC....15+ years and still subscription based.

    Why can't CU be successful  with a subscription ?
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