[NEWS] - CIG want's Backer to pay them $500 because someone else did a charge-back a year ago.

MrSnuffles

Here is the conversation with CIG:



Now before people jump in here and say, it's his fault for trusting someone or that it is the risk involved with melting, let's just take a step back and think what we are talking about here:

1. StarCitizen #1 buys a VIRTUAL SHIP that has zero value or cost for CIG. They can make millions of copies.
2. StarCitizen #1 gifts the ship to StarCitizen #2 that melts it and gets another VIRTUAL SHIP and gifts that back.
3. StarCitizen #1 decides to charge back the VIRTUAL SHIP he bought
4. CIG can trace back the whole process in their system and delete that ship and ban StarCitizen #1 account. (which they most likely have done since it was a charge-back)
5. CIG now demands $500 from StarCitizen #2 claiming they can not remove those pledges.

All this for a VIRTUAL SHIP that is nothing but a value in a database.

Thoughts?

Have faith!

Mopar

Take cover, incoming fanbois.

rojoArcueid

Wasnt this discussed in another thread a few days ago, with that exact same image? Maybe it was a dream.

Arkade99

If I'm that guy, I make CIG sue me to get the money back. There's no way I would pay them a dime.

unfilteredJW

Any port in a storm, eh?

Adjuvant1

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445445/grey-market-chargeback-shenanigans/p1

Shodanas

MrSnuffles said:

Here is the conversation with CIG:



Now before people jump in here and say, it's his fault for trusting someone or that it is the risk involved with melting, let's just take a step back and think what we are talking about here:

1. StarCitizen #1 buys a VIRTUAL SHIP that has zero value or cost for CIG. They can make millions of copies.


Thoughts?

Have faith!

Person #1 buys a VIRTUAL good (e.g pc program) that has zero value or cost for its developer since he can make million of copies.

As always, clueless, provocative and biased.

The game support manager's reply is all there is to say.

MrSnuffles

Adjuvant1 said:

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445445/grey-market-chargeback-shenanigans/p1

Must have missed that one, oh well, i don't live here 24/7 so i apologize for the double post.

Any thoughts though?

Have faith!

MrSnuffles

Shodanas said:

snip

Person #1 buys a VIRTUAL good (e.g pc program) that has zero value or cost for its developer since he can make million of copies.

As always, clueless, provocative and biased.

The game support manager's reply is all there is to say.

Yupp, because those ships don't even exist yet, they are just JPEGS.
Yupp, because the game does not exist yet.

Also, CIG can remove the pledge and ban the guy that charged back. No one is harmed. Yet they want the other guy to pay up.

/thread

Have faith!

MrSnuffles

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

Adjuvant1 said:

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445445/grey-market-chargeback-shenanigans/p1

Must have missed that one, oh well, i don't live here 24/7 so i apologize for the double post.

Any thoughts though?

What do you mean by "Have faith!" at the end of your OP?  You posted it so I take it as open for discussion.

You know how it is polite to include a closing like: Best wishes, Best regards, Have fun!

Have faith!

MrSnuffles

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

Adjuvant1 said:

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445445/grey-market-chargeback-shenanigans/p1

Must have missed that one, oh well, i don't live here 24/7 so i apologize for the double post.

Any thoughts though?

What do you mean by "Have faith!" at the end of your OP?  You posted it so I take it as open for discussion.

You know how it is polite to include a closing like: Best wishes, Best regards, Have fun!

Have faith!

Unusual polite closing, "Have faith!"... have faith in what?

Up to you really, whatever you want to have faith in. I do not discuss political or religious topics since they are not allowed on this forum.

Have faith!

Adjuvant1

CIG created the environment for this. It's CIG's responsibility to consider ship trades, melting and chargebacks in their formula. CIG cannot legally pursue the guy because "nothing of value was lost", you can't put a legal price on imaginary currency, unless CIG can establish a collaborative fraud attempt between the ship seller and buyer.

What CIG can do is modify the guy's account internally to reflect the loss or cancel guy's account altogether, because all accounts "belong" to CIG. Then you get into the pr disaster to which I referenced in the other thread, because the guy is a relatively involved blogger/reddit contributor, and many eyes will be on CIG's actions considering a good percentage consider guy's actions "within his right", "within the parameters established by CIG", and "not his fault".

CIG has a choice to make, and neither choice is "get money from this guy": place sanction on his account or let it go.

edit: punctuation

rojoArcueid

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

Adjuvant1 said:

Have faith!

Unusual polite closing, "Have faith!"... have faith in what?

Not in CIG, thats for sure.

MrSnuffles

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

snip

Up to you really, whatever you want to have faith in. I do not discuss political or religious topics since they are not allowed on this forum.

Have faith!

Yeah that's pretty strange if you don't discuss religion and you tell people to Have faith! in your closing don't you think?

I don't see why it is stranger than saying: "Best wishes". Does that mean i believe in Genies that grant wishes and how strange is it that i wish someone something: What exactly do i wish them? It's all so confusing now that you mentioned it. 

I need some time to reflect on that.

Have faith!

Shodanas

Adjuvant1 said:

CIG created the environment for this. It's CIG's responsibility to consider ship trades, melting and chargebacks in their formula. CIG cannot legally pursue the guy because "nothing of value was lost", you can't put a legal price on imaginary currency,

Are you telling us with a straight face that you can't distinguish the difference between virtual currency and virtual products / goods ?

Adjuvant1

Shodanas said:

Adjuvant1 said:

CIG created the environment for this. It's CIG's responsibility to consider ship trades, melting and chargebacks in their formula. CIG cannot legally pursue the guy because "nothing of value was lost", you can't put a legal price on imaginary currency,

Are you telling us with a straight face that you can't distinguish the difference between virtual currency and virtual products / goods ?

This was discussed in the other thread. Of course the copyrighted name "Star Citizen" and everything under it is protected from use for profit by unlicensed third parties. UEC, however, is not regulated currency. It has 0 value the instant it "leaves the game". I can't buy a big mac with UEC, or a car, a house. No government will accept UEC as trade value, because it has zero legal value. The matter is entirely internal.

rifleman223

Virtual Goods which were promised to be in the game, that aren't? Surely someone is getting this miscontrude, maybe on CIG's behalf for trying to charge a guy 500 USD for a ship that isn't in the game yet, if it is one of those ships.

If they take him to court, it would be a mistake, only because of promises weren't delivered.

Oh Star Citishipsalesman, when will the little stuff not become a priority, and gameplay will.

Excession

Bit off topic, but I used to know a Shodanas that was a huntard in WoW.

Anyway, on topic, how anyone can think it is fine for CIG to try and make someone pay for a chargeback  they did not make, is beyond me.

rifleman223

Excession said:

Bit off topic, but I used to know a Shodanas that was a huntard in WoW.

Anyway, on topic, how anyone can think it is fine for CIG to try and make someone pay for a chargeback  they did not make, is beyond me.

unless they're hurting for money, they shouldn't be trying to force anyone to do anything. Only themselves to finish the game in the first place.

No offense but when a game has a golden chalice this big, theres no place for that ship market anymore.

Brenics

Well to be fair and take the other side, the value would be the hours each dev worked on that one ship. To say it was only worth 500 with thinking a 20% markup does not sound like they really spent a lot on the item. 

But then how many would they need to sell to recover that hourly work? 

It really is fun to try and think how they come up with these prices on something that isn't real. 

Vada_G

Tyler (Star Citizen #2) did not buy a thing from CIG in this case and did not do the chargeback.

CIG should be going after Star Citizen #1 for purchasing goods, selling such goods and then doing a chargeback (essentially a theft by fraud case).

They do have the right to reclaim the stolen goods from Star Citizen #2 (as he purchased what comes down to stolen goods without his knowledge) and this sucks, but it is what it is. They do not have the right to come after citizen #2 for $$ equivalent to those goods. 

A real object example would be;

Tom buys a car from Toyota.
Tom sells car to John.
Tom's funds don't clear with Toyota.
Toyota can then go after Tom.
They could also take the car from John. As it is now classified as a 'stolen good'

However, if the car had been destroyed by a comet (and no insurance), there is no car to take. They cannot tell John, "hey, since Tom didn't pay us, you have to". John has made no such agreement with Toyota.

They could perhaps pursue John with a 'receipt of stolen goods' charge, but that would be a very weak case if John has no relationship with Tom.

ltdr; CIG should have fixed the Gray Market a long time ago. It's not Tyler's fault that some random screwed them over.

Dahkoht

Zero chance they can get any money from this guy if he doesn't want to pay them.

Zero.

Close his account sure , which if any game company sent me that message saying I owed them for someone else doing a chargeback , I'd suggest to them in colorful language what they could do with my account to begin with.

MrSnuffles

MisterZebub said:

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

Adjuvant1 said:

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445445/grey-market-chargeback-shenanigans/p1

Must have missed that one, oh well, i don't live here 24/7 so i apologize for the double post.

Any thoughts though?

What do you mean by "Have faith!" at the end of your OP?  You posted it so I take it as open for discussion.

You know how it is polite to include a closing like: Best wishes, Best regards, Have fun!

Have faith!

Unusual polite closing, "Have faith!"... have faith in what?

MrSnuffles is obviously a massive George Michael fan.

God damnit! You got me there man...i bow to you!

Have faith!

ThexReporter

LMAO you people actually willingly gave money to Star Citizen?  

HAHAHAHA

GeezerGamer

MisterZebub said:

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

DirtyDozen said:

MrSnuffles said:

Adjuvant1 said:

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445445/grey-market-chargeback-shenanigans/p1

Must have missed that one, oh well, i don't live here 24/7 so i apologize for the double post.

Any thoughts though?

What do you mean by "Have faith!" at the end of your OP?  You posted it so I take it as open for discussion.

You know how it is polite to include a closing like: Best wishes, Best regards, Have fun!

Have faith!

Unusual polite closing, "Have faith!"... have faith in what?

MrSnuffles is obviously a massive George Michael fan.

I thought that was "Ya gotta have faithafaithataith"

MrSnuffles

DirtyDozen said:

Dahkoht said:

Zero chance they can get any money from this guy if he doesn't want to pay them.

Zero.

Close his account sure , which if any game company sent me that message saying I owed them for someone else doing a chargeback , I'd suggest to them in colorful language what they could do with my account to begin with.

So what will happen is the guy can never play the game again with a negative balance.  In effect they have banned him unless he pays the penalty.  I call it a penalty because I believe they are doing this to punish him for participating in laundering ships for LTI.

Just my guess.

I thought there is nothing in the TOS or EULA that prohibits anyone from participating in the grey market. They offer melting and the tools. They are enabling people to do this.

Not to mention that the grey market helps them with sales.

Have faith!