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XCOM2 goes beyond strategy (rant)

MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
edited February 2016 in General Gaming
Being a huge fan of XCOM: Enemy Unknown, I was incredibly excited for XCOM2.

Boy, was I let down.  XCOM2's to hit chance calculator is terribly flawed (3 squad members standing shoulder to shoulder with enemy and a 91-94% hit chance scored 3 misses, as well as a 77% hit chance missing on 14 consecutive reloads).  The game is, quite honestly, artificially stacked against the player.  It's noticeable enough that I've requested a refund through Steam.

Firaxis has ignored or forgotten the first rule of strategy gaming: reward the player for good decisions.  Instead, they've focused on RNG to the point that it no longer feels as if you can control your own destiny; your entire mission (and game) depends on the luck of RNG.  That's, quite frankly, a horrible way to go about Strategy gaming.

As much as it pains me, I would recommend steering clear of this game.   It's, quite honestly, a poor excuse for a strategy game and fails miserably to meet up to the standards set by its predecessor.

When I reload a saved game 14 times, moving my soldier into position and firing each time identically, only to have a 77% hit chance miss every single time.  Additionally, when I move three different squad members into literal melee range (shoulder to shoulder with the enemy with no cover between), scoring a 91-94% hit chance, only to have all three squad members miss...  The strategy title starts to feel stacked against you.  That's a terrible way to go about "balancing" a strategy title, and it's something that was not included (or, at least, noticeable) in the original title.  It seems, to me, to indicate a change in the seeding system.

Long story short...  Firaxis seems to have skimped on the actual strategy portion to artificially create strife for the player...  Which results in an entirely unsatisfactory playing experience that I didn't get from the original title.

EDIT- More to the point, and less superfluous ranting.

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Post edited by MadFrenchie on

Comments

  • RedAlert539RedAlert539 Member UncommonPosts: 115
    edited February 2016
    While i can get behind your "Strategy gaming is about decisions and not RNG" philosophy, the fact that you discard an entire game as terribly flawed and ask for a refund because a single stat doesn't always work on your favor is quite a bold move, imo. The resoning behind your argument is well placed but your overall comment leans a lot to the ragequit rant side.
    Strategy gaming IS about decisions and well...strategy, but that also means that if things go south for you, you have to accept defeat and maybe even permadeath. Even if you place your troops correctly on the battlefield they can still miss their shots you know. Realoding from a certain point multiple times when you miss a shot is like cheating on the game as much as (in your opinion) the game cheats on you. 
    All i'm trying to say is give it another shot and try different approaches rather than quitting after a few defeats. Cheers.
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    Sure it's not bugged? Heard from a few folks it's buggy. Maybe wait for a patch.

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  • RatfunkRatfunk Member UncommonPosts: 3
    Sounds like a bug. I've played several hours so far and have not run into anything like this. The RNG is very comparable to XCOM: Enemy Within.  Personally, it's everything I wanted from a sequel and more. I am quite enjoying my time.
  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,499
    Yeah I have played for about 4 hours total so far and had none of the major bugs I keep hearing about.  Maybe I am just lucky, been playing on a system that is close to 6 years old.  Hopefully there will be some better luck to the poster in the future but the game pretty much is running just a promised for me, can't say for anyone else.

    The one thing I can say is don't plan to play it unless you have a gaming computer and a laptop is not a gaming computer.
  • WW4BWWW4BW Member UncommonPosts: 501
    edited February 2016

    When I reload a saved game 14 times, moving my soldier into position and firing each time identically, only to have a 77% hit chance miss every single time, the game needs to be reviewed.


    This is intentional.. And it is the opposite of random.

    Now if you had changed something, you could have moved past the bad result in the RNG seed. But simply reloading will not generate a new seed. 

    Save Scum was added as an option in XCOM Enemy Within. Selecting that, would allow you to reload and get a new random seed, so you could hope for a different result.

    Though I share your pain when several 70%+ shots all miss or just that crucial 97% shot that now leaves your guy as open as the alien was. Or when their suppressed and disoriented muton kills your guy on a 1% shot.
  • WW4BWWW4BW Member UncommonPosts: 501

    Ratfunk said:
    Sounds like a bug. I've played several hours so far and have not run into anything like this. The RNG is very comparable to XCOM: Enemy Within.  Personally, it's everything I wanted from a sequel and more. I am quite enjoying my time.
    It is not a bug if they havent added a Save Scum option yet. It is a standard feature, that is in all XCOM games. A Save Scum option was added in EW, but since I havent gotten XCOM 2 yet, I dont know if it is an option in the new game, yet.

    So basicly you shouldnt expect a different outcome, after reloading, if you change nothing.
  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,499
    WW4BW said:

    Ratfunk said:
    Sounds like a bug. I've played several hours so far and have not run into anything like this. The RNG is very comparable to XCOM: Enemy Within.  Personally, it's everything I wanted from a sequel and more. I am quite enjoying my time.
    It is not a bug if they havent added a Save Scum option yet. It is a standard feature, that is in all XCOM games. A Save Scum option was added in EW, but since I havent gotten XCOM 2 yet, I dont know if it is an option in the new game, yet.

    So basicly you shouldnt expect a different outcome, after reloading, if you change nothing.
    This is what I was thinking about two.  It isn't a RNG problem with reloading because you will get the same roll everytime unless you make a change.

    I did like the last line you put in, that is the definition of "insanity" by the way.
  • TaishiFoxTaishiFox Member RarePosts: 999
    I really don't get what the problem is here tbh, though if it really is a bug then give em a chance to fix it.

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  • Alka_SetzerAlka_Setzer Member UncommonPosts: 167
    I assume, like WW4BW said, that a seed is generated for each mission. So no matter how many times you reload that 90% chance to hit is still going to miss because that has already been pre-determined by the seed.

    Other than that, I would assume it's a bug. But most likely it's a seed.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited February 2016
    WW4BW said:

    When I reload a saved game 14 times, moving my soldier into position and firing each time identically, only to have a 77% hit chance miss every single time, the game needs to be reviewed.


    This is intentional.. And it is the opposite of random.

    Now if you had changed something, you could have moved past the bad result in the RNG seed. But simply reloading will not generate a new seed. 

    Save Scum was added as an option in XCOM Enemy Within. Selecting that, would allow you to reload and get a new random seed, so you could hope for a different result.

    Though I share your pain when several 70%+ shots all miss or just that crucial 97% shot that now leaves your guy as open as the alien was. Or when their suppressed and disoriented muton kills your guy on a 1% shot.
    I reloaded to test the seeding mechanic by reloading to a point where I had to manually move my soldier in position every time before firing the shot.  Point was, the seed was generated before even moving to a position to generate the to hit chance.  With that in mind:  That seed isn't limited to just the one squad member attacking; the other situation was intentional to find out if the seed was generated per squad member or on the enemy itself.  It is generated on the enemy itself.  Therefore, the enemy gets a random seed, one that can sometimes mean no matter how well-positioned your troop or what weapon you use, you will miss.  This is determined before you even decide a strategy.

    This wouldn't be such a problem had they used the same kind of to hit chance system as EU; if I remember correctly, standing beside someone resulted in a 100% to hit chance.  Here, I had a squad member standing one tile away get a hit chance as low as 88% at one point during my 6 hours playing.  While I realize RNG is a component, the method by which they generate the RNG component is counter-intuitive and results in feeling less like true RNG and more like simply trolling the player.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    While i can get behind your "Strategy gaming is about decisions and not RNG" philosophy, the fact that you discard an entire game as terribly flawed and ask for a refund because a single stat doesn't always work on your favor is quite a bold move, imo. The resoning behind your argument is well placed but your overall comment leans a lot to the ragequit rant side.
    Strategy gaming IS about decisions and well...strategy, but that also means that if things go south for you, you have to accept defeat and maybe even permadeath. Even if you place your troops correctly on the battlefield they can still miss their shots you know. Realoding from a certain point multiple times when you miss a shot is like cheating on the game as much as (in your opinion) the game cheats on you. 
    All i'm trying to say is give it another shot and try different approaches rather than quitting after a few defeats. Cheers.
    The post was most certainly a rant on my part (I changed the title to more accurately reflect so), I still cannot agree with the seeding method Firaxis has used.  See my above post.

    I played the crap outta EU, losing the metagame multiple times without really feeling like I was railroaded into it, and am familiar with the maddening quirks of RNG..  However, XCOM2 seems to go beyond this.

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505

    I am a big fan of xcom series. Terror from the deep was my favorite one. I am considering getting xcom 2, but I am kind of driven away by the limited number of turns for the missions. I always prefered taking it slow :).
    Those missions are quite tense.  However, I found that the missions have just enough turns to make you move deliberately but not frantically.  I actually enjoyed them, even though I (like you) preferred moving methodically throughout the missions.  In some of them you can complete the time-sensitive objective without killing all enemies or moving your entire squad to a point, so you can move one guy to the objective while covering him with the rest of the squad.

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  • Joseph_KerrJoseph_Kerr Member RarePosts: 1,113
    Probably a bug or something, ive already put more hours into the game then I care to admit and I have yet to experience anything like that. However, if I miss, I miss, I dont reload because of it or because of squad member deaths. Hope it gets sorted out for you, the game is a blast.
  • scorpex-xscorpex-x Member RarePosts: 1,030
    I'm done buying these games on release, you guys are suckers to your own impatience.

    When I buy this game I'll get a far better experience, I'll have less bugs, more content and get it cheaper. 
  • AxxarAxxar Member UncommonPosts: 104
    The RNG works fine, but the game unfortunately suffers from massive performance issues. It is an unoptimized mess. There is a good game behind the bugs and other technical issues, however, but XCOM 2 is a great example on why you SHOULD NOT PREORDER games, and why Steam's REFUND option exists.
  • ZagatoMKRZagatoMKR Member UncommonPosts: 263
    When I reload a saved game 14 times, moving my soldier into position and firing each time identically, only to have a 77% hit chance miss every single time
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

    Next time use a different strategy instead. ;)

    Cheers.
  • DukeDroklarDukeDroklar Member CommonPosts: 1
    ZagatoMKR said:
      Next time use a different strategy instead. ;)
    No strategy can change the predetermined success or failure of a shot with the bs seed method. Regardless of how well you place your soldiers to increase your chance of a hit, you will hit or miss based on nothing that has to do with your strategy or tactics.
  • DahkohtDahkoht Member UncommonPosts: 479
    DMKano said:
    XCOM2 is totally worth getting - RNG and all. 

    Fantastic game and fantastic series.
    Very much this , few small bugs , nothing major , and very very fun.

    With the modding potential it's a good value overall too.
  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Member RarePosts: 5,361
    I been playing it fine.  But I bet the PC version is more of a test to get it ready for the consoles release.
  • MeriikMeriik Member UncommonPosts: 60
    That's the whole point of the game, being able to minimize your losses when shit hits the fan.  The game is about your struggle to survive. Sometimes you're going to lose someone and it's gonna hurt, it forces you to put your soldiers in a better position next time.  Missing a few 90% shots, yeah its gonna happen sometimes that's just how probability works lol.
  • AnirethAnireth Member UncommonPosts: 940
    edited February 2016
    This actually was already a problem in the original reboot. And that the outcome is already determined the moment you start the mission, or at least once the enemy made his turn, is incredibly stupid. This means, if you get the right seed, you can't lose, and if you get the wrong one, you can't win, irrespective of the strategy chosen.

    It should determine the outcome the moment you select an action, and it should reflect the displayed chance. If you have 90% chance to hit, you should actually hit about that often, so it should not be a total RNG, but stacked in your favour. You should still be able to miss, but that should be as unlikely as that you hit with 10%.

    Which reminds me of the funny thing, that low hit chances almost always work as intended - you miss. No three consecutive hits with 5% hit chance, or hitting all five aliens with a grenade when you only have 30% to even hit the one you are aiming at.

    The point of the game is strategy/tactics (though they already threw that out of the window when they allowed to enemies to *move* when *you* see them. Not sure if it's still in in Enemy Within and XCOM 2, but i'd guess so), not rolling a lucky seed.

    They where either lazy, under pressure to release the game, or it was actually on purpose like the other dozen things they removed compared to the originals.

    The XCOM reboots are only good because we do not have anything comparable right now. If we had a real succesor to this type of game, the XCOM games would be no where as popular.

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    And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
    Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
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  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,052
    edited February 2016
    The original was the same way, 99% sniper shot missed all the time. I stopped playing it due to that. Thank you for confirming they never fixed it.
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  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,052
    ZagatoMKR said:
      Next time use a different strategy instead. ;)
    No strategy can change the predetermined success or failure of a shot with the bs seed method. Regardless of how well you place your soldiers to increase your chance of a hit, you will hit or miss based on nothing that has to do with your strategy or tactics.
    Yes, in this case....bad RNG.
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