P2w and star citizen

Erillion

holdenhamlet said:

Even if we don't know the stats we pretty much know that the more expensive ships are going to be better, otherwise there's going to be backlash "within the ranks".

One has to understand that these ships have different roles on the battlefield.

A destroyer with his anti-capital-ship weapons is not "better" than a Hornet single-seat fighter.

They have different roles and do not compete.

If a "Javelin" and a "Hornet" fight one-on-one no one wins. Hornet cannot crack the shields of the Javelin and the Javelin cannot hit the Hornet if the Hornet jockey is not asleep on the stick.

The Javelin would normally be the mobile base of a player org, defended by a CAPCOM fighter screen of player piloted fighters. Another player org may attack it with Sabre interceptors clearing the way for Retaliator torpedo bombers to annihilate the Javelin. 

Stats are secondary if you suck as a pilot in a piloting-skill-game such as Star Citizen.

A big science ship is also not "better" than a Hornet single-seat fighter. Different class, different purpose, different role.

A big science ship is also not even "better" than a Origin 300 series explorer. The smaller Origin can explore "small" new nav points (which are much more numerous) that the bigger science ship simply cannot navigate at all. 


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rpmcmurphy

Yes why not, let's use the view of what P2W is from a Star Citizen fan and expect it to be totally unbiased.
Perhaps we should get an opinion from Derek Smart at the same time?

PottedPlant22

Erillion said:

holdenhamlet said:

Even if we don't know the stats we pretty much know that the more expensive ships are going to be better, otherwise there's going to be backlash "within the ranks".

One has to understand that these ships have different roles on the battlefield.

A destroyer with his anti-capital-ship weapons is not "better" than a Hornet single-seat fighter.

They have different roles and do not compete.

If a "Javelin" and a "Hornet" fight one-on-one no one wins. Hornet cannot crack the shields of the Javelin and the Javelin cannot hit the Hornet if the Hornet jockey is not asleep on the stick.

The Javelin would normally be the mobile base of a player org, defended by a CAPCOM fighter screen of player piloted fighters. Another player org may attack it with Sabre interceptors clearing the way for Retaliator torpedo bombers to annihilate the Javelin. 

Stats are secondary if you suck as a pilot in a piloting-skill-game such as Star Citizen.


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You don't actually know any of this as fact.  It's what's planned for the game, but since the game isn't actually done no one knows for sure how it will work.  All people know is that you can buy ships for thousands of dollars.  In reality if this will give you an advantage and to what extent remains to be seen.

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pinktailz

It is not P2W because it is not even a game

Adjuvant1

Good morning, everyone.

Grey market trade of game assets for a game which won't even exist for some time.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/43wx9b/cig_pulling_account_funds_from_backers_to_pay_for/

Pay to melt... pay to trade... pay to... chargeback? People who want out can't even get the initial cost of the package from grey market buyers right now, the volume is so inundated by people bailing.

Sell! Sell!

More like "pay to lose".

UnleadedRev

it is just a cash grab with no end in sight.

YashaX

Erillion said:

Star Guide - Is Star Citizen Pay 2 Win??

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He says that "those with large bank accounts will begin the game with a clear advantage".

His reasoning that a game is only p2w if items in the cash shop cannot be obtained in game is the most extreme definition p2w, something these days is mainly only seen in mobile games.

SC is far more p2w even than ArchAge, which is often touted as an example of a p2w cash grab, and which suffered a terrible backlash because of that.  Indeed, I don't know of any other Western mmo that has the same level of p2w as we are seeing here with SC- and the game hasn't even released yet!

Let's compare to some other games:
I remember the launch of ESO. There was such a kerfuffle about p2w because there was a special package that let players start with a basic horse (no not a fully leveled horse, just a basic horse but a nice white color), and the imperial race that is arguably slightly more suited to some class/role combinations.

By your definition of p2w it would be fine if they sold gold nirnhoned 9 tier crafted armor/weapon sets in the cash shop since you can get this in game.

How about BDO? Many people seem adamant that BDO is just "another Asian cash grab", and yet it has a purely cosmetic cash shop. You cannot buy gear, let alone the equivalent to end-game star destroyers that require a group/guild effort to acquire and run. Hmmm, your definition of p2w could be handy here as well- they could sell castles in the cash shop- after all its not p2w if you can get it in game right?

SpottyGekko

YashaX said:

...- after all its not p2w if you can get it in game right?

That's the standard argument I see used whenever anyone accuses an MMO of being "P2W", so it's no surprise to see it being used here.

bcbully

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship. Don't deny it. It is what it is.

That being said None of us know the degree/impact of this system. This is what matters. This is the only thing that's important. On the scale of p2w it could be anywhere from mild to destructive. We wont know until there is a game...

Erillion

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.


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rpmcmurphy

That's not what Roberts said at 8mins 35 secs in

Erillion

rpmcmurphy said:

That's not what Roberts said at 8mins 35 secs in

That is why it was official corrected/clarified on their homepage. Starter ships only.

You will find the link posted here in this subforum in older threads. Or in the Dev Tracker.


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bcbully

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.


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It's ok man. It's 2016 in the mmorpg genre. We've seen this before. There's no need to retort with weak responses like the one above.

Here's an example. Mech Warrior Online. You can spend $1000's on mechs if you want.  P2W right? Yep it is.

That being said the degree of p2w in MWO is so mild do to the gestalt of the games systems, it turns out that MWO has one of the more mild systems I've ever seen. It's awesome f2p system.

Thaaat being said. IT"S STILL P2W. Just like SC You CAN buy power.

CrazKanuk

bcbully said:

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.


Have fun

It's ok man. It's 2016 in the mmorpg genre. We've seen this before. There's no need to retort with weak responses like the one above.

Here's an example. Mech Warrior Online. You can spend $1000's on mechs if you want.  P2W right? Yep it is.

That being said the degree of p2w in MWO is so mild do to the gestalt of the games systems, it turns out that MWO has one of the more mild systems I've ever seen. It's awesome f2p system.

Thaaat being said. IT"S STILL P2W. Just like SC You CAN buy power.

Well, then we just go back to the same old P2W debate. If you can get it in the game is it P2W? If they sell the most powerful ships in the game, like you can't get them in-game, then that's definitely P2W. However, if the ships can be earned in-game with reasonable effort (a couple hundred hours) then is it? 

Herase

bcbully said:

Just like SC You CAN buy power.

You can't buy power, as some have said a ship defines your role, so the ships are more like classes, example there will be a news ship and massive ships that have little to no firepower, how will that grant me an advantage? 

If they start selling weapons and stuff that improves your ships, then it will be P2W. At this point? Nothing like that is buyable with real money.

Imho it's similar to skyforge where you can buy your class, which doesn't grant you power just changes your style of play. 

Just have to look at the description of the ships:

Genesis, 8 person passenger ship i.e a plane. Not sure how that will make me WIN 

rpmcmurphy

Erillion said:

That is why it was official corrected/clarified on their homepage. Starter ships only.
You will find the link posted here in this subforum in older threads. Or in the Dev Tracker.

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The onus is on you to provide those links if you believe they offer a different standpoint on the matter. I'm providing information to back up what I know, you have to do the same.

Erillion

rpmcmurphy said:

Erillion said:

That is why it was official corrected/clarified on their homepage. Starter ships only.
You will find the link posted here in this subforum in older threads. Or in the Dev Tracker.

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The onus is on you to provide those links if you believe they offer a different standpoint on the matter. I'm providing information to back up what I know, you have to do the same.

As you wish.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6176447/#Comment_6176447

"CIG to be selling packages greater than simple starter ships post-release?"

"BadNewsBaron is incorrect, I have not made any such post and CIG has made no such announcement. "

CIG Ben Lesnick wcloaf

As I said: Starter ships only. Status December 2015.


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GeezerGamer

No,
Currently SC is not P2W.
It's still just
Pay to...............

rpmcmurphy

Erillion said:

As you wish.
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6176447/#Comment_6176447

"CIG to be selling packages greater than simple starter ships post-release?"

"BadNewsBaron is incorrect, I have not made any such post and CIG has made no such announcement. "

CIG Ben Lesnick wcloaf

As I said: Starter ships only. Status December 2015.
Have fun

Excellent, thank you for doing that.

The problem here is that the only thing Lesnick is saying is that he has not made a post and CIG have not made an announcement, he's not actaully saying that they aren't talking about it internally or that they won't do this post release. Whereas Roberts is actually on camera talking about how things are going to work post release.

The question is, who do we trust in this situation? Do we trust the head honcho speaking in person or do we trust a person that has been known to repeatedly say things that aren't altogether true, either accidentally or willfully?

I know who my money is on.

Vada_G

rpmcmurphy said:

The question is, who do we trust in this situation? Do we trust the head honcho speaking in person or do we trust a person that has been known to repeatedly say things that aren't altogether true, either accidentally or willfully?

That's a trick question. I see what you did there.

filmoret

It will be either pay to win or pay to play.  It will probably not be f2p.  It is like calling Archeage f2p even though you can't really do anything without getting a monthly sub and buying extra stuff from the item mall.  I think this game will end up costing the average player 100$ a month.  They are greedy cash hogs and I don't expect it to change.

Erillion

rpmcmurphy said:

The question is, who do we trust in this situation? Do we trust the head honcho speaking in person

Who ... after a beer or three ... made the honest mistake of saying "Hornet" instead of "Mustang" (Mustang being the second starter ship, another single seater fighter like the Hornet)  at a Bar Citizen event, which triggered the whole "OMG they are selling giant ships after launch !!1!!" debate.

Official position as stated on the official homepage (status December 2015) = Starter ships only after launch day


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Zen00

Siphaed said:

Except you cannot fly those ships until you've learned the skills in REAL TIME.  It takes at least 6 months + to be able to fly a Capital ship through training.  And then you've got to worry about subsystems attached to it.  However that is NOT pay to win.  They're buying in-game earned currency from other players within the game. That is RMT (real money trade) for currency.   P2W is buying directly from a cash shop items of power that are on sell there, whether earnable in-game is moot to that fact.   And yes, I'd say that SC is completely P2W with it's ship sales system.

Just going to say that a game that is time-gated for content plus has  a monthly sub is very money grubbing IMO. Or can you let your sub lapse for those 6 months then pick up with the skill learned?

Erillion

Zen00 said:

Just going to say that a game that is time-gated for content plus has  a monthly sub is very money grubbing IMO. Or can you let your sub lapse for those 6 months then pick up with the skill learned?

Star Citizen does not require a monthly subscription after launch.


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TiamatRoar

Siphaed said:

Except you cannot fly those ships until you've learned the skills in REAL TIME.  It takes at least 6 months + to be able to fly a Capital ship through training.  

Assuming they actually stick with this, should the game hypothetically come to fruition, I eagerly await the incoming complaints from whales who didn't read the fine print and  for six friggin' months can't pilot the ships they actually brought for thousands of dollars.