Lol, in what world do you live? The most popular EQ emulators run classic-velious with hundreds of thousands of registered accounts. Pantheon's forums are predominantly filled with people who want a derivative of classic EQ. When Daybreak wants to make money, they offer progression servers which are always most popular during the early expansions.
You don't remember anyone who deemed contested raids fun or enjoyable? Well I don't know anyone who enjoyed EQ after contested raids as much as classic.
Are you certain that gamers playing P99 are there for the contested content or is more likely due to other factors, like nostalgia, slower paced gameplay, greater challenge, less hand holding...or a plethora of other reasons? The only thing I remember about contested content was the continual drama in /ooc chat in east commons about kill stealing, raid rivalries and ninja looting. Fires of Heaven and their low handed behavior was often brought up. Kinda like it has been lately on the TLS Ragefire with the Twisted Legacy guild locking everything down.
I'm sure they're there for both. The point is that if contested content was as hated as was being suggested, the servers that have tried offering the newer expacs or even custom content would be more popular. The p99 servers have always been extremely top heavy too, with hundreds of people competing for raid content.
Call it prestige, call it exclusivity, or call it vanity, but that was the thing that set EQ apart. That was why it was dubbed Evercrack. It was about the thrill of finally accomplishing something that took a lot of time, and often a lot of people. Convenience mechanics deteriorated those foundational tenets, and with it caused the downfall of player interdependence and the sense of community.
Raiding was not what made EQ what it was though back then, in fact... raiding was what led to its downfall. If you notice, it was attending to raiders specifically which led to the exodus of EQ. The dumbing down of EQ through fast travel and other conveniences were a big part of it, but it was the alienation by the raid game that made a rather large impact and led to many moving on to more "group" focused games which is what WoW was originally marketed as.
People were happy to let the raiders focus on their game during Release, Kunark, Velious and even SoL, but when the grouping population was discarded such as it was in PoP, this is what really hurt the game. I remember seeing small to medium guilds extremely angry at the massive amount of raid gating in PoP that essentially told the smaller guilds who could not compete to piss off. Basically PoP was a "members only" expansion where the non-competition raid guilds were left farming entry zones while the competition raiders essentially had entire zones to exp and loot in to themselves, all because of content gating bottle neck cock blocking content.
Then you had the later fiasco of GoD being the same type of "Time and top plane geared guilds need only apply" and again group based and small guilds were left to clean up shitty content that raiders were duoing/soloing.
Point is, raiding was what made EQ crap. It was people like Furor from FoH and other guilds throwing tantrums and demanding they would leave unless SoE kissed their ass and made them the only focus.
Vort is right, contested raiding was not the main focus of most EQ players. Sure, we enjoyed the raiding, but we tolerated the contested part of it. For the most part, it was a pain, and unless you were jobless or tagged along in a major raid guild, you spent most of your time picking up the scraps of the guilds who decided to pass on farming another raid mob for the AH sales to cover guild expenses.
What made EQ what it was, is the vast open world, difficult content, slow progression and no hand holding with massive amounts of group content that required skill and dedication to complete. Raiding was fun, but contested raiding was ass. I know of none who thought it was good gaming.
That is not to say that instance raiding is better, it has its own problems, but contested raids? Nope.
EQ lost a large part of its subscribers because of difficulty and bugs of Gates of Discord, and the release of WoW and EQ2 in the same year.
It had nothing to do with: -instances -loot -anything else
Bullshit.
You can say those were large contributors
Well, you're contradicting yourself.
Either it's A: Bullshit B: Large contributors
pick one
How so? You made an absolute statement by claiming that:
"EQ lost a large part of its subscribers because of difficulty and bugs
of Gates of Discord, and the release of WoW and EQ2 in the same year."
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
I said... that this is wrong, those things did have something to do with it. You can say a lot was what you claimed, but you can't state it has "NOTHING" to do with it.
It was the beginning of the end. People want proper progression. LDON and GoD introduced instancing en masse, and they also invalidated previous content and the progression
That makes absolutely no sense.
PoP was the first expansion with an instance afaik, in 2002. LDON had a whole expansion with instances in 2003.
In 2002 and 2003 EQ was still growing.
EQ's population only dropped in 2004, 2 years later, it wasn't because of instances, they had been in the game 2 years prior when EQ was still growing.
I have never heard anyone say instances killed EQ except you.
How did LDON and GoD "invalidate previous content". that makes no sense either.
Especially saying GoD invalidaded previous content makes absolutely no sense, half the people couldn't handle GoD, it made the previous content more valuable if anything, all my friends were in PoFire getting AA while I was raiding in Txevu with my guild.
How so? You made an absolute statement by claiming that:
"EQ lost a large part of its subscribers because of difficulty and bugs
of Gates of Discord, and the release of WoW and EQ2 in the same year."
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
I said... that this is wrong, those things did have something to do with it. You can say a lot was what you claimed, but you can't state it has "NOTHING" to do with it.
How did instances have anything to do with losing subscribers?
Instances were introduced in 2002 in PoP.
By then EQ was still growing. EQ only started to lose subscribers in 2004 with GoD, years after instances were introduced.
How so? You made an absolute statement by claiming that:
"EQ lost a large part of its subscribers because of difficulty and bugs
of Gates of Discord, and the release of WoW and EQ2 in the same year."
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
I said... that this is wrong, those things did have something to do with it. You can say a lot was what you claimed, but you can't state it has "NOTHING" to do with it.
How did instances have anything to do with losing subscribers?
Instances were introduced in 2002 in PoP.
By then EQ was still growing. EQ only started to lose subscribers in 2004 with GoD, years after instances were introduced.
Explain yourself.
Go back up, look at my comment about subs dropping in Sept, look at Dullahans comment specifically attending to such.
We both don;t know exactly why, it could be many things. Your point was... and I quote:
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
So, you say instances had NOTHING to do with it... which was brought into question with mine and Dullahans rebuttal.
Then you say loot had nothing to do with it.. how do you know?
Then you say "anything else"
so you said NOTHING ELSE other than what you stated had anything to do with it.
That is BULLSHIT as you can not properly establish that. As I said, you can suggest that what you mentioned is more likely, but you can not state an absolute as that statement is logically invalid right on its face because YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN WHAT EXACTLY CAUSED EVERYONE TO LEAVE.
Are you certain that gamers playing P99 are there for the contested content or is more likely due to other factors, like nostalgia, slower paced gameplay, greater challenge, less hand holding...or a plethora of other reasons? The only thing I remember about contested content was the continual drama in /ooc chat in east commons about kill stealing, raid rivalries and ninja looting. Fires of Heaven and their low handed behavior was often brought up. Kinda like it has been lately on the TLS Ragefire with the Twisted Legacy guild locking everything down.
I'm sure they're there for both. The point is that if contested content was as hated as was being suggested, the servers that have tried offering the newer expacs or even custom content would be more popular. The p99 servers have always been extremely top heavy too, with hundreds of people competing for raid content.
Call it prestige, call it exclusivity, or call it vanity, but that was the thing that set EQ apart. That was why it was dubbed Evercrack. It was about the thrill of finally accomplishing something that took a lot of time, and often a lot of people. Convenience mechanics deteriorated those foundational tenets, and with it caused the downfall of player interdependence and the sense of community.
Raiding was not what made EQ what it was though back then,
Didn't say it did. I said the exclusivity. The open and contested nature of the game. The sense of accomplishment. The things that existed because of a lack of instancing. Raiding is only part of that.
How did instances have anything to do with losing subscribers?
Instances were introduced in 2002 in PoP.
By then EQ was still growing. EQ only started to lose subscribers in 2004 with GoD, years after instances were introduced.
Explain yourself.
I would love to hear an explanation too.
I've already explained it more than enough. The same graph that he tried to use to prove those mechanics made EQ better actually show the population dropped for the first time ever. Now its on to circular reasoning, jumping from factoid (or in this case, fiction) to factoid trying to make a case that cannot be made.
Look, people can like whatever they like. It doesn't matter, you aren't wrong for liking it. The fact remains though, that the only thing Daybreak can do to make money any more is capitalize on an EQ before it changed. The most popular emu servers are always the classic servers, and people are calling for an oldschool EQ remake. That is what Pantheon intends to be, and they've already said that means contested content and no instancing outside of story-telling.
It was the beginning of the end. People want proper progression. LDON and GoD introduced instancing en masse, and they also invalidated previous content and the progression
That makes absolutely no sense.
PoP was the first expansion with an instance afaik, in 2002. LDON had a whole expansion with instances in 2003.
In 2002 and 2003 EQ was still growing.
EQ's population only dropped in 2004, 2 years later, it wasn't because of instances, they had been in the game 2 years prior when EQ was still growing.
I have never heard anyone say instances killed EQ except you.
How did LDON and GoD "invalidate previous content". that makes no sense either.
Especially saying GoD invalidaded previous content makes absolutely no sense, half the people couldn't handle GoD, it made the previous content more valuable if anything, all my friends were in PoFire getting AA while I was raiding in Txevu with my guild.
I played all the way up to GoD, and it was common knowledge on my server that LDoN was irrelevent because it wasn't considered end-game content, it was mid-game at best and really wasn't a factor. The instancing in PoP was incredibly small, relegated to only keying events and the final progression zone of PoP.
When GoD was released, it invalidated everything before it and gave out gear with more stats than PoP just the expansion before it like it was christmas in July. All of which in GoD were instanced, so everyone suddenly had everything, and that's what killed the game.
How did instances have anything to do with losing subscribers?
Instances were introduced in 2002 in PoP.
By then EQ was still growing. EQ only started to lose subscribers in 2004 with GoD, years after instances were introduced.
Explain yourself.
Part of what will make any game lose subscribers ultimately is time. Regardless of how great a game is, eventually, people are going to try something new. So, with or without instancing, EQ slowly would have lost subscribers unless they did complete rehauls of graphics, etc. and not the sh*tty Luclin Models or Freeport revamp etc. Even then, time would ultimately kill it.
But, having played in Betas through Call of the Forsaken, I can 100% say with certainty that many people left due to instances. Was it the sole factor, of course not. Could I provide an exact number, no.
Now, as the "Why" for why instances cause an exodus - there's been pages of threads that argue why instancing is bad, and, I don't plan on writing a novel. But, for me, it's simple, EQ was successful due to the community and social bonds formed in the game. It's why I can still remember the names of the bad, good, and great players. The ninja looters and kill stealers. The trainers. The paladin who ran by and casted lay on hands on me in Befallen when I would have died in the pit. And, the reason I stayed on longer as a tank because I didn't want to leave my group "tankless." Yes, you can still group with instances, but you can't /shout FBSS group looking for a replacement tank. It makes the game world feel alive. It makes you see and have forced interaction with other players whether you like it or not. With instances you don't have the interactions in zone. With instances you don't have the competition, the drama, the social memories, both good and bad. You have your own little playground.
Simple example, but the basic point is instancing kills communities and social interdependence. The absolute reliance on other players in EQ is what made it addicting, memorable and magical. I understand not everyone wants that playstyle, but you can't make an argument that instancing didn't negatively affect EQ.
How so? You made an absolute statement by claiming that:
"EQ lost a large part of its subscribers because of difficulty and bugs
of Gates of Discord, and the release of WoW and EQ2 in the same year."
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
I said... that this is wrong, those things did have something to do with it. You can say a lot was what you claimed, but you can't state it has "NOTHING" to do with it.
How did instances have anything to do with losing subscribers?
Instances were introduced in 2002 in PoP.
By then EQ was still growing. EQ only started to lose subscribers in 2004 with GoD, years after instances were introduced.
Explain yourself.
Go back up, look at my comment about subs dropping in Sept, look at Dullahans comment specifically attending to such.
We both don;t know exactly why, it could be many things. Your point was... and I quote:
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
So, you say instances had NOTHING to do with it... which was brought into question with mine and Dullahans rebuttal.
Then you say loot had nothing to do with it.. how do you know?
Then you say "anything else"
so you said NOTHING ELSE other than what you stated had anything to do with it.
That is BULLSHIT as you can not properly establish that. As I said, you can suggest that what you mentioned is more likely, but you can not state an absolute as that statement is logically invalid right on its face because YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN WHAT EXACTLY CAUSED EVERYONE TO LEAVE.
That clear now or do I need to draw you pictures?
I'd say his/her point has more logical merit than thinking it was instancing, loot, or much else....simply because other games with little to no instancing suffered heavy population loss around the same time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When GoD was released, it invalidated everything before it and gave out gear with more stats than PoP just the expansion before it like it was christmas in July. All of which in GoD were instanced, so everyone suddenly had everything, and that's what killed the game.
I can tell Kiyoris played Everquest, I have a more difficult time believing some other posters here did.
Nothing in Qvic was instanced, nothing in Txevu was instanced. To say GoD was christmas in July could not be further from the truth. It was by far the most challenging expansion SoE had ever put out.
When GoD was released, it invalidated everything before it and gave out gear with more stats than PoP just the expansion before it like it was christmas in July. All of which in GoD were instanced, so everyone suddenly had everything, and that's what killed the game.
I can tell Kiyoris played Everquest, I have a more difficult time believing some other posters here did.
Nothing in Qvic was instanced, nothing in Txevu was instanced. To say GoD was christmas in July could not be further from the truth. It was by far the most challenging expansion SoE had ever put out.
Are you kidding me with this garbage? Seriously? I don't honestly remember the names of the zones because I didn't stay more than 2 weeks after launch of GoD, but I distinctly remember enchanters SOLO'ing raid zones with charmed mobs. 1 group could do with a good enchanter what it should've took 6 groups.
The charmed pets were literally doing 50x the dps of a rogue.
I also don't ever remember seeing anyone else in the zones but my group, and I highly doubt that's because there was nobody else there, much of GoD was instanced.
Txevu is a static zone, and inside you find the instance entrace for Tacvi, the final zone in the Gates of Discord and an instanced raid zone.
I can tell Kiyoris played Everquest, I have a more difficult time believing some other posters here did.
Nothing in Qvic was instanced, nothing in Txevu was instanced. To say GoD was christmas in July could not be further from the truth. It was by far the most challenging expansion SoE had ever put out.
Are you kidding me with this garbage? Seriously? I don't honestly remember the names of the zones because I didn't stay more than 2 weeks after launch of GoD, but I distinctly remember enchanters SOLO'ing raid zones with charmed mobs. 1 group could do with a good enchanter what it should've took 6 groups.
No one was soling raid mobs in GoD.
You're probably confused with Zun`Muram, a raid in the final room in Txevu, he could not be killed with melee weapons, and required the enchantment of a maestrung that sporadically appeared once Zun was engaged. But getting there required a full raid, and it required a full raid to keep the enchanters and raid alive. Zun'Muram was the final step in the quest for Tacvi access, he dropped the signet that completed the quest.
No one was soling raids, many mobs can still not be solo'd years later.
I didn't stay more than 2 weeks after launch of GoD, but I distinctly remember enchanters SOLO'ing raid zones with charmed mobs.
lol solo. Every raid zone required 54 players armed to the teeth, the last zone took over a year for the first guild to beat, we were in OOW already by then.
I'm not a poser like half the people in this thread. I did all the GoD raids, so did Calmoceans.
When GoD was released, it invalidated everything before it and gave out gear with more stats than PoP just the expansion before it like it was christmas in July. All of which in GoD were instanced, so everyone suddenly had everything, and that's what killed the game.
I can tell Kiyoris played Everquest, I have a more difficult time believing some other posters here did.
Nothing in Qvic was instanced, nothing in Txevu was instanced. To say GoD was christmas in July could not be further from the truth. It was by far the most challenging expansion SoE had ever put out.
I was talking about the dip in subs when LDON was released where I specifically noted such. Besides, the point is that Kiyoris use a fallacy of absolute generalization to proclaim a result (ie all, everyone, etc...) when the fact is that Kiyoris has no way of knowing exactly who left and why. That is why I said Kiyoris can suggest a large portion of such is likely the cause, but not through the absolute statement that was made.
How so? You made an absolute statement by claiming that:
"EQ lost a large part of its subscribers because of difficulty and bugs
of Gates of Discord, and the release of WoW and EQ2 in the same year."
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
I said... that this is wrong, those things did have something to do with it. You can say a lot was what you claimed, but you can't state it has "NOTHING" to do with it.
How did instances have anything to do with losing subscribers?
Instances were introduced in 2002 in PoP.
By then EQ was still growing. EQ only started to lose subscribers in 2004 with GoD, years after instances were introduced.
Explain yourself.
Go back up, look at my comment about subs dropping in Sept, look at Dullahans comment specifically attending to such.
We both don;t know exactly why, it could be many things. Your point was... and I quote:
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances -loot -anything else
So, you say instances had NOTHING to do with it... which was brought into question with mine and Dullahans rebuttal.
Then you say loot had nothing to do with it.. how do you know?
Then you say "anything else"
so you said NOTHING ELSE other than what you stated had anything to do with it.
That is BULLSHIT as you can not properly establish that. As I said, you can suggest that what you mentioned is more likely, but you can not state an absolute as that statement is logically invalid right on its face because YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN WHAT EXACTLY CAUSED EVERYONE TO LEAVE.
That clear now or do I need to draw you pictures?
I'd say his/her point has more logical merit than thinking it was instancing, loot, or much else....simply because other games with little to no instancing suffered heavy population loss around the same time.
That was not the point. Read my comment. I am not defending that instancing was the main cause or that it was a heavy reason. The fact is, we do not completely know, but as I pointed out with the chart, there was a noticeable drop in subs after LDoN and it coincides with my experience of peoples dislike with it and the behavior its content design produced.
The problem with Kiyoris's position is not that it might be sound in its "assumption" of what was a strong cause of such, but it can not be one of absolute cause as Kiyoris stated ie "And that the following had NOTHING to do with it... ". Absolute statements in these causes are invalid. That was my point, but Kiyoris insisted on arguing an invalid point.
Didn't say it did. I said the exclusivity. The open and contested nature of the game. The sense of accomplishment. The things that existed because of a lack of instancing. Raiding is only part of that.
I won't disagree in that general sense, though I would argue that it was the result of what contested content provided, not necessarily the contest of the content itself. That is, contested content produced rarity of drops due to the style of spawning/place holder system. It created social aspects through continued camping in a area for those drops.
Personally, I think those are the key elements (among others) that is what produced that attractiveness in play.
but many zones were not instanced -Barindu -Ferubi -Natimbi -Abysmal Sea -Kod'Taz -Qvic -Txevu -Rinimi -Qinimi -Yxtta
Outside of LDON, EQ never had any fully instanced expansions. DoN and DoD follow a similar currency system as LDON points, but they still only have about 60% instanced content. All the other EQ expansions had less.
but many zones were not instanced -Barindu -Ferubi -Natimbi -Abysmal Sea -Kod'Taz -Qvic -Txevu -Rinimi -Qinimi -Yxtta
Outside of LDON, EQ never had any fully instanced expansions. DoN and DoD follow a similar currency system as LDON points, but they still only have about 60% instanced content. All the other EQ expansions had less.
I guess I should re-phrase, much of the zones that were actually relevant to raid progression in GoD were instanced. I guess it's too much for someone to assume that you wouldn't waste your time talking about abysmal sea and natimbi etc....
Fact of the matter is Pantheon won't have instances, so the entire conversation is a moot point to be had in these threads. If you'd like, I can recommend about 4000 other game forums on this website that would be happy to back up your premise that instances are awesome.
Thankfully for the rest of us who don't make up charts and graphs and misrepresent them as facts in an attempt to sway opinion about a game that you probably don't even have an interest in playing, Visionary Realms has already heeded our calls and decided instances are not for Pantheon.
Comments
People were happy to let the raiders focus on their game during Release, Kunark, Velious and even SoL, but when the grouping population was discarded such as it was in PoP, this is what really hurt the game. I remember seeing small to medium guilds extremely angry at the massive amount of raid gating in PoP that essentially told the smaller guilds who could not compete to piss off. Basically PoP was a "members only" expansion where the non-competition raid guilds were left farming entry zones while the competition raiders essentially had entire zones to exp and loot in to themselves, all because of content gating bottle neck cock blocking content.
Then you had the later fiasco of GoD being the same type of "Time and top plane geared guilds need only apply" and again group based and small guilds were left to clean up shitty content that raiders were duoing/soloing.
Point is, raiding was what made EQ crap. It was people like Furor from FoH and other guilds throwing tantrums and demanding they would leave unless SoE kissed their ass and made them the only focus.
Vort is right, contested raiding was not the main focus of most EQ players. Sure, we enjoyed the raiding, but we tolerated the contested part of it. For the most part, it was a pain, and unless you were jobless or tagged along in a major raid guild, you spent most of your time picking up the scraps of the guilds who decided to pass on farming another raid mob for the AH sales to cover guild expenses.
What made EQ what it was, is the vast open world, difficult content, slow progression and no hand holding with massive amounts of group content that required skill and dedication to complete. Raiding was fun, but contested raiding was ass. I know of none who thought it was good gaming.
That is not to say that instance raiding is better, it has its own problems, but contested raids? Nope.
It had nothing to do with:
-instances
-loot
-anything else
You can say those were large contributors, but to say nothing else had anything to do with it is basically spinning a huge ass lie.
Either it's
A: Bullshit
B: Large contributors
pick one
"EQ lost a large part of its subscribers because of difficulty and bugs of Gates of Discord, and the release of WoW and EQ2 in the same year."
And that the following had NOTHING to do with it...
-instances
-loot
-anything else
I said... that this is wrong, those things did have something to do with it. You can say a lot was what you claimed, but you can't state it has "NOTHING" to do with it.
Is English a second language to you?
That makes absolutely no sense.
PoP was the first expansion with an instance afaik, in 2002. LDON had a whole expansion with instances in 2003.
In 2002 and 2003 EQ was still growing.
EQ's population only dropped in 2004, 2 years later, it wasn't because of instances, they had been in the game 2 years prior when EQ was still growing.
I have never heard anyone say instances killed EQ except you.
How did LDON and GoD "invalidate previous content". that makes no sense either.
Especially saying GoD invalidaded previous content makes absolutely no sense, half the people couldn't handle GoD, it made the previous content more valuable if anything, all my friends were in PoFire getting AA while I was raiding in Txevu with my guild.
Instances were introduced in 2002 in PoP.
By then EQ was still growing. EQ only started to lose subscribers in 2004 with GoD, years after instances were introduced.
Explain yourself.
We both don;t know exactly why, it could be many things. Your point was... and I quote:
So, you say instances had NOTHING to do with it... which was brought into question with mine and Dullahans rebuttal.
Then you say loot had nothing to do with it.. how do you know?
Then you say "anything else"
so you said NOTHING ELSE other than what you stated had anything to do with it.
That is BULLSHIT as you can not properly establish that. As I said, you can suggest that what you mentioned is more likely, but you can not state an absolute as that statement is logically invalid right on its face because YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN WHAT EXACTLY CAUSED EVERYONE TO LEAVE.
That clear now or do I need to draw you pictures?
I've already explained it more than enough. The same graph that he tried to use to prove those mechanics made EQ better actually show the population dropped for the first time ever. Now its on to circular reasoning, jumping from factoid (or in this case, fiction) to factoid trying to make a case that cannot be made.
Look, people can like whatever they like. It doesn't matter, you aren't wrong for liking it. The fact remains though, that the only thing Daybreak can do to make money any more is capitalize on an EQ before it changed. The most popular emu servers are always the classic servers, and people are calling for an oldschool EQ remake. That is what Pantheon intends to be, and they've already said that means contested content and no instancing outside of story-telling.
When GoD was released, it invalidated everything before it and gave out gear with more stats than PoP just the expansion before it like it was christmas in July. All of which in GoD were instanced, so everyone suddenly had everything, and that's what killed the game.
But, having played in Betas through Call of the Forsaken, I can 100% say with certainty that many people left due to instances. Was it the sole factor, of course not. Could I provide an exact number, no.
Now, as the "Why" for why instances cause an exodus - there's been pages of threads that argue why instancing is bad, and, I don't plan on writing a novel. But, for me, it's simple, EQ was successful due to the community and social bonds formed in the game. It's why I can still remember the names of the bad, good, and great players. The ninja looters and kill stealers. The trainers. The paladin who ran by and casted lay on hands on me in Befallen when I would have died in the pit. And, the reason I stayed on longer as a tank because I didn't want to leave my group "tankless." Yes, you can still group with instances, but you can't /shout FBSS group looking for a replacement tank. It makes the game world feel alive. It makes you see and have forced interaction with other players whether you like it or not. With instances you don't have the interactions in zone. With instances you don't have the competition, the drama, the social memories, both good and bad. You have your own little playground.
Simple example, but the basic point is instancing kills communities and social interdependence. The absolute reliance on other players in EQ is what made it addicting, memorable and magical. I understand not everyone wants that playstyle, but you can't make an argument that instancing didn't negatively affect EQ.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Nothing in Qvic was instanced, nothing in Txevu was instanced. To say GoD was christmas in July could not be further from the truth. It was by far the most challenging expansion SoE had ever put out.
EQ lost population because of Gates of discord and the introduction of EQ2 and WoW.
Not because of instances that were introduced years earlier, when the population was rising.
The charmed pets were literally doing 50x the dps of a rogue.
I also don't ever remember seeing anyone else in the zones but my group, and I highly doubt that's because there was nobody else there, much of GoD was instanced.
Txevu is a static zone, and inside you find the instance entrace for Tacvi, the final zone in the Gates of Discord and an instanced raid zone.
You're probably confused with Zun`Muram, a raid in the final room in Txevu, he could not be killed with melee weapons, and required the enchantment of a maestrung that sporadically appeared once Zun was engaged. But getting there required a full raid, and it required a full raid to keep the enchanters and raid alive. Zun'Muram was the final step in the quest for Tacvi access, he dropped the signet that completed the quest.
No one was soling raids, many mobs can still not be solo'd years later.
I'm not a poser like half the people in this thread. I did all the GoD raids, so did Calmoceans.
The problem with Kiyoris's position is not that it might be sound in its "assumption" of what was a strong cause of such, but it can not be one of absolute cause as Kiyoris stated ie "And that the following had NOTHING to do with it... ". Absolute statements in these causes are invalid. That was my point, but Kiyoris insisted on arguing an invalid point.
Personally, I think those are the key elements (among others) that is what produced that attractiveness in play.
-Sewers
-Kod'Taz trial
-Vxed
-Ikkinz Trial
-Uqua and Inktu'ta raid
-Tacvi
but many zones were not instanced
-Barindu
-Ferubi
-Natimbi
-Abysmal Sea
-Kod'Taz
-Qvic
-Txevu
-Rinimi
-Qinimi
-Yxtta
Outside of LDON, EQ never had any fully instanced expansions. DoN and DoD follow a similar currency system as LDON points, but they still only have about 60% instanced content. All the other EQ expansions had less.
Fact of the matter is Pantheon won't have instances, so the entire conversation is a moot point to be had in these threads. If you'd like, I can recommend about 4000 other game forums on this website that would be happy to back up your premise that instances are awesome.
Thankfully for the rest of us who don't make up charts and graphs and misrepresent them as facts in an attempt to sway opinion about a game that you probably don't even have an interest in playing, Visionary Realms has already heeded our calls and decided instances are not for Pantheon.