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An unpopular opinion about MMORPGs problems the last few years

subxaerosubxaero Member UncommonPosts: 94
So after having played dozens of MMORPgs, having watched their progression  since 2001 i have come to some specific conclusions which are arguably not really popular to the community  currently but i still  think they make some solid points.

I believe that that mmorpgs the last years are trying way to much to be innovative on certain aspects of the game that completely mess up core elements of mmorpgs, that it is individuality(in terms of char aspects)  socializing(grouping/raiding) and   being rewarding, in my opinion if an MMORGP doesnt contain those 3 in a high level its doomed to fail, being generic is not the big issue of the mmos currently, i still beileve  that a generic mmo with very strong  those 3 aspects would do fantastic


Individuality

Where is the individuality in the last 2-3 years of mmos, its awfull   the RPG aspect of an MMO its  different of a non MMO, its about playing with friends but be different from them in way more than 1 way.
But lets go to the simple things why mmos recently dont even bother making armors and beautifull ones or a wide range through leveling, we went from games(for e.x) that u could change 10 different shoulder armors in a range of 20-25 levels to games that  either the armor is very similar looking untill u hit  max cap or games that u change armor 4-5 times, and recently games that u dont change armor at all (but u do change costumes if u buy them ) imo this is horrible.
Also where is the individuality in terms of pvp/profs and many other things, thats the beauty of playing an mmorpg to be different from the other in more than a single way( not just class/proff for example)


Socializing(grouping/raiding)

One of the biggest issues  lately in the MMORPG's is grouping with a friend or freinds  in order to either join a dungeon or compelte quests.2 Of the latest AAA+ MMorgps  that have been released in 2015 had huge issues(i dont want to name them because it is not my intention to compare games but if u have played them u will understand for which i am talking about) in the first one fantastic world excellent rpg experience and when u were trying to group with a friend u were encountering huge  problems sometimes instances of a specifc part of a quest  should be done solo , some other times quests were bugging especially when u were grouping, some other u had to do them  each one solo for no particular reason.Also the other big mmorpg it might had slightly better grouping system but it was still bad( u had to relog to be shown in the same place with your friennd-UI didnt show the quests shared and many others).
As for raiding things are getting worse, u going from easy soloing everything untill u max -cap level and u usually u go straight into epic hardcore difficulty raiding. Just put 3-4 god damn raids with different difficulty each they dont have to be huge, and not  the same raid with different diffculty(or at least have 1 more) . TBC expantion is the ultymate perfect example about how an MMORPG game raid system. You had gruul -Maghteridon..later on Kharazhan that could be puged or done even by not hard raiding guilds, then u were moving to SSC and then to bigger difficulty raids BT SP  and many other.

Game being rewarding

THats another very simple aspect of the game but so much vital and important, making a quest or a series of quest and getting rewarded respectively its  huge, it gives u joy and  a feeling of satisfaction and urge to continue playing the game.MMORPGs lately dont bother being rewarding in any aspect

SUmming up i beleive   companies are trying way too hard to be innovative that ignore core elements of the MMOrpg genre, before people try to make new things please make sure u have the basic mmorpg elements well made, i mean why bother making a beautifull made world with extreme details if i cant bloody group up and enjoying leveling with a friend!

THis is what i wanted to say, sorry for my horrible english
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Comments

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    You make some very good points but I disagree on one thing. TBC was aweful for raids because it lowered the numbers to 10 or 25 people. These games are called massively multiplayer online but they offer no massively multiplayer content.

    One of the biggest problems with MMO's today is the lack of content for a big crowd. The only content we see for more than 25 or 30 people is always PvP.

    I'd like to see someone put the Massively back into MMO.
  • Gaming.Rocks2Gaming.Rocks2 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Organizing 40man raids was a pain. Were among top 10 guilds of the world and we faced problems with our roster. 
    It's ok if your game requires skill. It's not ok if you need no lifers to progress. 
    Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon. 
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    You make some very good points but I disagree on one thing. TBC was aweful for raids because it lowered the numbers to 10 or 25 people. These games are called massively multiplayer online but they offer no massively multiplayer content.

    One of the biggest problems with MMO's today is the lack of content for a big crowd. The only content we see for more than 25 or 30 people is always PvP.

    I'd like to see someone put the Massively back into MMO.
    Wildstar tried the massive raids (40 people IIRC) and failed miserably.
    No idea how the game is doing these days, but prior to going F2P it wasn't in a very happy place.

    A great deal of people were also painfully reminded just how much of a hassle it is to organize those things. :D

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • subxaerosubxaero Member UncommonPosts: 94
    edited January 2016
    You make some very good points but I disagree on one thing. TBC was aweful for raids because it lowered the numbers to 10 or 25 people. These games are called massively multiplayer online but they offer no massively multiplayer content.

    One of the biggest problems with MMO's today is the lack of content for a big crowd. The only content we see for more than 25 or 30 people is always PvP.

    I'd like to see someone put the Massively back into MMO.
    U've got a point  and i completely agree, but i was reffering at the amount of raids and their leveling dificulty rather than have  only 2 raids and 3 different difficulties on them, something like that, i miss the massive raids but that being said was a pain to organise them aswell
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    Organizing 40man raids was a pain. Were among top 10 guilds of the world and we faced problems with our roster. 
    It's ok if your game requires skill. It's not ok if you need no lifers to progress. 
    Never had that problem. Every Wednesday we'd have 60+ online wanting to go to MC and people would have to be left out, which sucks monumental goat balls for the guys left behind.

    Move that to TBC and it gets worse, you get 28 players and 3 miss out, you have 12 and 2 get left out. If you had the original 40 players that's 15 that can't go so they try and start a 10 man and if they're lucky with classes they might get away with it, but that all depends on having a tank and enough healers. Still there's 5 left out in the cold. Sorry guys, you can't go. Absolute bollocks in a game claiming to be Massively multiplayer.

    The thing is that we know content scaling works. Why these restrictions are still enforced I don't know.
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Organizing 40man raids was a pain. Were among top 10 guilds of the world and we faced problems with our roster. 
    It's ok if your game requires skill. It's not ok if you need no lifers to progress. 
    Never had that problem. Every Wednesday we'd have 60+ online wanting to go to MC and people would have to be left out, which sucks monumental goat balls for the guys left behind.

    Move that to TBC and it gets worse, you get 28 players and 3 miss out, you have 12 and 2 get left out. If you had the original 40 players that's 15 that can't go so they try and start a 10 man and if they're lucky with classes they might get away with it, but that all depends on having a tank and enough healers. Still there's 5 left out in the cold. Sorry guys, you can't go. Absolute bollocks in a game claiming to be Massively multiplayer.

    The thing is that we know content scaling works. Why these restrictions are still enforced I don't know.
    There are always exceptions. Blizzard didn't make the decision to switch to a smaller scale just because they were being lazy, or out of some desire to spite their players*. They had the numbers to back up that these things weren't nearly as popular as some would like to force down everyone's throats, and more than a few people had issues with scheduling them, especially once they stopped being shiny and new, resulting in a diminished pool of interested players to take along.


    * Why on Earth people always think that devs want to do that anyway? Do they really think that developers are such idiots that they piss off those paying their wages just for shits and giggles?

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,429
    Most of the new mmos can be described as 'easy, linear and story-driven single player games + some form of raiding and/or mass pvp at max level'. They are not mmorpgs, they are combinations of 2 or 3 different games from different genres and some of them have even facebook-like mini-games.

    Developers are aware their players think the game starts at max level, but instead of figuring out the reasons for this they simply allow them to get there faster, which makes the early game and its content more or less pointless. This means it would be waste of resources and dev time to create armor sets or group content for anything else than the part where 'the game starts'. It's also more lucrative for companies if their players pay for less and are ok with the fast-food content they have to go through to get to the meat of the game after 2-3 days long SPG. Some companies even sell options to skip this SPG so their customers can get straight to the mini-game they are interested in.

    The bottom line is these companies give what we (as a gaming audience) want and are willing to pay for. They don't care for innovations, only quick and easy money, and as long as there are people paying for these conveniences this will be the only kind of non-indie mmo format in existence. And if for some reason the gaming crowd got back to their senses, the companies would come to a conclusion we're not interested in mmos anymore, and started to develope something else.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited January 2016
    LOL too much.
    name 1 game trying to add socializing and grouping?
    Name 1 game that goes beyond a visual slider characterization screen?
    Point 3 you got right.That is all developers are doing is EASY rewards,step here get free xp,go run to npc get xp,it's a holiday get 3x xp,do meaningless quest get xp and loot,instant level 90 players,instant travel,give us money get a ship get a mount no need to play the game and earn it,we give it to you.

    Lost....immersion...forget about it,we have both arrows and yellow markers to hold your hand directly where you need to go and if your REALLY lazy,we even have auto pilot or auto travel.

    This whole era of gaming to me is like someone standing out front of a large store chain with coupons to entice you to come in the store right before they jack up the prices and rip you off.

    Whoa whoa ,,,excuse me sir this coupon said 50% off,well 50% off of 600 means i  still have to buy this ship for 300 dollars?I can buy better net door for 200 bucks.Pfft forget about it,our model has fixed every known problem this item has had and we'll even throw in some free xp pots for buying from us.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • FlintsteenFlintsteen Member UncommonPosts: 282
    Point 2 is the main issue imo.  Socialising.  I know it's good to be solofriendly,  but dont forget your roots.  mmorpg is not the same as solo rpg's.  So many solo rpg features have been incorporated in mmorpg's and sometimes at the cost of the mmo feel.  

    Not beeing able to play the whole game with a friend is just not right imo.  Why should anything be forced solo in a mmo ?  That just doesn't make sense.  I'm not saying it cant have a solo option,  but forced solo is just as bad as forced grouping.  Might even be worse considering were talking mmorpg's not singleplayer rpg's.

    First and all mmo's need to fokus on what mmo's does best.  Dont try to be something you're not. Expand on guildtools and social tools. Ex.  It should be possible to improve on the basic groupfinder tool. 

    I'm not saying mmo's have to be all about raids or huge pvp battles.  You can invent some other type of social game. What's i'm saying is dont make solo content at the expense of groupcontent.  Dont make solo content you cant play in a group.  Some people actually like playing with friends and/or family and beeing forced to solo is a detractor for most of thoose people.
  • subxaerosubxaero Member UncommonPosts: 94
    Point 2 is the main issue imo.  Socialising.  I know it's good to be solofriendly,  but dont forget your roots.  mmorpg is not the same as solo rpg's.  So many solo rpg features have been incorporated in mmorpg's and sometimes at the cost of the mmo feel.  

    Not beeing able to play the whole game with a friend is just not right imo.  Why should anything be forced solo in a mmo ?  That just doesn't make sense.  I'm not saying it cant have a solo option,  but forced solo is just as bad as forced grouping.  Might even be worse considering were talking mmorpg's not singleplayer rpg's.

    First and all mmo's need to fokus on what mmo's does best.  Dont try to be something you're not. Expand on guildtools and social tools. Ex.  It should be possible to improve on the basic groupfinder tool. 

    I'm not saying mmo's have to be all about raids or huge pvp battles.  You can invent some other type of social game. What's i'm saying is dont make solo content at the expense of groupcontent.  Dont make solo content you cant play in a group.  Some people actually like playing with friends and/or family and beeing forced to solo is a detractor for most of thoose people.
    This^ exactly my thoughts, i still beileve its better that the game forces u to play with either a friend or make friends through grouping rather than solo  stomping it, we are talking about MMOs at the end of the day.

    THey should also upgrade the role of the guilds/pacts or whatsoever they can be called. Automaticly finding groups for raids/dungeons destroyed the purpose of being in a good guild or the purpose of trying to improve it. From fantastic open area PvP like DAOC offered  some lnog time ago to the PvE  peak of guilds in TBC/WoTLK(still remember  i had to read more than 15-20 applications in a point a day as  recruit officer)
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    IMO, it was the shift into the single player experience that did it. It took away the whole reason I wanted an online game and at the same time, could not match the experience of a true single player game.
  • HeronnHeronn Member UncommonPosts: 39
    subxaero said:

    This^ exactly my thoughts, i still beileve its better that the game forces u to play with either a friend or make friends through grouping rather than solo  stomping it, we are talking about MMOs at the end of the day.

    THey should also upgrade the role of the guilds/pacts or whatsoever they can be called. Automaticly finding groups for raids/dungeons destroyed the purpose of being in a good guild or the purpose of trying to improve it. From fantastic open area PvP like DAOC offered  some lnog time ago to the PvE  peak of guilds in TBC/WoTLK(still remember  i had to read more than 15-20 applications in a point a day as  recruit officer)

    No it certainly stopped idle chatter, but the group finding did way more good then bad.

    The real problem is the notion of a dungeon and "raids", what would they mean to developers outside the blizzard sphere?

    The template is nothing but a man made invention, It's time to throw it away and or improve on it...I understand the concept of a game dungeon stretches as far back as the invention of the computer, but there was no such thing as one kind of implementation.

    Even a level based mmo is a figment of one persons imagination that became a norm, so much falsities lol.
  • subxaerosubxaero Member UncommonPosts: 94
    Heronn said:
    subxaero said:

    This^ exactly my thoughts, i still beileve its better that the game forces u to play with either a friend or make friends through grouping rather than solo  stomping it, we are talking about MMOs at the end of the day.

    THey should also upgrade the role of the guilds/pacts or whatsoever they can be called. Automaticly finding groups for raids/dungeons destroyed the purpose of being in a good guild or the purpose of trying to improve it. From fantastic open area PvP like DAOC offered  some lnog time ago to the PvE  peak of guilds in TBC/WoTLK(still remember  i had to read more than 15-20 applications in a point a day as  recruit officer)

    No it certainly stopped idle chatter, but the group finding did way more good then bad.

    The real problem is the notion of a dungeon and "raids", what would they mean to developers outside the blizzard sphere?

    The template is nothing but a man made invention, It's time to throw it away and or improve on it...I understand the concept of a game dungeon stretches as far back as the invention of the computer, but there was no such thing as one kind of implementation.

    Even a level based mmo is a figment of one persons imagination that became a norm, so much falsities lol.
    I dont think it did more good than bad, its just a fast way of grouping  a fast way to bypass lack of people low population.its not the way u implement a group finding system its the consequences, makes game dull and takes away from socializing, u want to find a group? Join a guild-make friends /ask in the group chat. On your way there  duel/kil elite mobs make stupid jokes, i am being too simplistic but i am sure u get what am saying.No more ''fast food'' cook for yourself a thing
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,611
    The problems are on all levels.

    PvP, seemingly everyone wants it but they want it in a 'certain' way. ANY form of PvP that can be created exists already, so pick a game and look at  it. You cannot reinvent PvP. It is what it is. PvP comes down to a couple things...'balance' and how 'hardcore' is it. It will never ever be balanced in any game so stop trying. Not many people want hardcore but they do want some from of open world PvP and a (decent)risk reward situation. (THAT might not exist in any MMOs right now)

    Character diversity. THAT does exist, basically every game has in depth and intricate options for people to create characters, but you know what happens? You get a thousand people asking "whats the best build for such and such a class' or a hundred youtube videos of people showing insane amounts of damage or healing or whatever and people want to know the EXACT spec and gear. Or you have simple guides telling people where to put points how to do rotations and where to find gear. And if they put a single point into a 'wrong' tree they either reroll or whine and cry about it.

    'End game'/progression/rewards Tougher nut to crack. The ONLY way youre going to keep this stuff from being steamrolled through by guys who can play 24/7 is to lock it behind timers or make it so to advance each member needs a certain piece of equipment (that you cant farm endlessly until everyone has it) or you make it so difficult the gear is a must to get past certain areas. None of those people like. No one likes lock outs, no one likes the RNG, and people cringe at stuff being a challenge let alone difficult enough to require certain gear pieces to advance. Basically two of three of those become 'hardcore' versus 'casual' issues.

    In the end there is one game that does actually do most of the stuff 'necessary' to fit the needs of most (PvE) gamers, thats Lotro. Except that it is so dumbed down and easy these days it takes only a week or two for even the most casual of casual to have the top end items in the game. Plus its older than dirt.

    In the end an MMO that is going to get the most out of itself, has to be fun, it has to offer enough things to the different factions of MMO players that still exist to interest a wide range of play styles tp keep a healthy amount of people playing, it has to keep people attention s long enough to keep them logging in every day and working towards things and then with updates or expansions time it so the game progresses at a time when people are ready for it and not when too many people have left and just hope they get a surge of people coming back.

    You know what would be a radical and I am sure unpopular option that would fulfill a lot of things? Time limits on how long accounts could stay online. So when the game launches you dont have the typical 200 hours (and gone through mot of the content) in 2 weeks. An account gets 30 hours a week max, or X amount of consecutive hours per day. That would obviously be the ultimate timer lock out but it would also protect people from themselves and the burn out. People would also have to learn how to manage their time again and schedule 'special' things like grouping ot whatever. Obviously no game would ever do that but IMO people would eventually get used to it and they might even like it. I mean go to any of the 'popular' games (what few there are) that people arent burnt out on yet or moved on from, if the servers are down for whatever reason the forums are on fire with complaints because they want to actually log in. If games started having scheduled downtimes (not for maintenance or anything else, just to basically slow people down) imagine how rabid it would keep players (longer).

    tl;dr I know but it addresses most of the issues MMOs face these days with truly radical and unpopular options that are so crazy they would probably work.
  • subxaerosubxaero Member UncommonPosts: 94
    rodarin said:
    The problems are on all levels.

    PvP, seemingly everyone wants it but they want it in a 'certain' way. ANY form of PvP that can be created exists already, so pick a game and look at  it. You cannot reinvent PvP. It is what it is. PvP comes down to a couple things...'balance' and how 'hardcore' is it. It will never ever be balanced in any game so stop trying. Not many people want hardcore but they do want some from of open world PvP and a (decent)risk reward situation. (THAT might not exist in any MMOs right now)

    Character diversity. THAT does exist, basically every game has in depth and intricate options for people to create characters, but you know what happens? You get a thousand people asking "whats the best build for such and such a class' or a hundred youtube videos of people showing insane amounts of damage or healing or whatever and people want to know the EXACT spec and gear. Or you have simple guides telling people where to put points how to do rotations and where to find gear. And if they put a single point into a 'wrong' tree they either reroll or whine and cry about it.

    'End game'/progression/rewards Tougher nut to crack. The ONLY way youre going to keep this stuff from being steamrolled through by guys who can play 24/7 is to lock it behind timers or make it so to advance each member needs a certain piece of equipment (that you cant farm endlessly until everyone has it) or you make it so difficult the gear is a must to get past certain areas. None of those people like. No one likes lock outs, no one likes the RNG, and people cringe at stuff being a challenge let alone difficult enough to require certain gear pieces to advance. Basically two of three of those become 'hardcore' versus 'casual' issues.

    In the end there is one game that does actually do most of the stuff 'necessary' to fit the needs of most (PvE) gamers, thats Lotro. Except that it is so dumbed down and easy these days it takes only a week or two for even the most casual of casual to have the top end items in the game. Plus its older than dirt.

    In the end an MMO that is going to get the most out of itself, has to be fun, it has to offer enough things to the different factions of MMO players that still exist to interest a wide range of play styles tp keep a healthy amount of people playing, it has to keep people attention s long enough to keep them logging in every day and working towards things and then with updates or expansions time it so the game progresses at a time when people are ready for it and not when too many people have left and just hope they get a surge of people coming back.

    You know what would be a radical and I am sure unpopular option that would fulfill a lot of things? Time limits on how long accounts could stay online. So when the game launches you dont have the typical 200 hours (and gone through mot of the content) in 2 weeks. An account gets 30 hours a week max, or X amount of consecutive hours per day. That would obviously be the ultimate timer lock out but it would also protect people from themselves and the burn out. People would also have to learn how to manage their time again and schedule 'special' things like grouping ot whatever. Obviously no game would ever do that but IMO people would eventually get used to it and they might even like it. I mean go to any of the 'popular' games (what few there are) that people arent burnt out on yet or moved on from, if the servers are down for whatever reason the forums are on fire with complaints because they want to actually log in. If games started having scheduled downtimes (not for maintenance or anything else, just to basically slow people down) imagine how rabid it would keep players (longer).

    tl;dr I know but it addresses most of the issues MMOs face these days with truly radical and unpopular options that are so crazy they would probably work.
    Insightfull i agree with the PvP paragraph, KInda dont agree with the diversity though. I still beileve it is very limited though.I get your point about the builds but all this talk is a matter of game and how deep is, in cata for ex holy priests had insane heal, but they were times that disc priests could insta shield 10 members absorbing insane amounts of dmg, imagine in fights with huge burst a disc heal was twice as more effective.
    My enh shammy back then  had bigger burst than my ele shammy, that being said the majority of the boses required my ele shammy since they were more aoe focused and with spawns.

    Proffetions, how beautifull was the diversity in TBC 7-8 proffs with 2-3 sub proffs for example alchemy(elixir master-potion master--transmog everyone was needed in a  guild, if a game is really deep with great balance and  synergy between different aspects diversity is easily achieved.Even though i didnt want to talk a bout specific games in this post, WoW did many things so incredibly right in  a specific era.

    Imo dont really agree with time limitations, i still beileve that if someone wants to spent huge amounts of time he should be rewarded in different case most of the people will have the same progress, that being said it wouldnt matter because the msot important achievements comes through raids and grouping...hell 40 ppl were working all together for a month in order our rogue to get the thudnerfurry back in times.


    I miss RNG to be honest, it was perfect because it led to another innovation by the guilds that enhanced the game and i talk about the DKP system, you want loots sir?Sure but u have to participate in conistent rate to gather points and manage to get your item .Now  everyone gets 2-3 drops per run, get instantly  geared a fter 2 weeks ''Hey man we got raids scheduled for this week'' noo... i'll pass thank sorry bye.SO many runs in MC i took in total 3 items.SO fuking what?When i took them the feeling was orgasmic, such satisfaction
  • PepeqPepeq Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Problem with your thinking is that you are using your past experiences to make judgements *for* a player base that perhaps wasn't even born when you started playing.

    The newer generation, and you know who they are because you have zero frame of reference with them on any level, don't see games the same way you do.  What you see as utopia is utterly boring to them.  It's why games that feature nostalgic elements often fail.

    Try mentioning Billy Beer to someone born in the 80s... they have zero frame of reference to it.  Games are no different... as time goes on, games change because the people playing them have.  You may wish to stay in the past, but the world around you doesn't stand still.  Hence your belief that there is a problem with MMOs.  A good number of people don't see them as problems... they also don't visit sites such as this.  Your preaching to the choir... most of the peeps here are older than dirt as their kids would say and dinosaurs by their own definition.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    IMO, it was the shift into the single player experience that did it. It took away the whole reason I wanted an online game and at the same time, could not match the experience of a true single player game.
    The solution is simple. Reduce the multiplayer aspect to be optional, and build a better single player experience. 

    It is not about what you want ... but what audience the devs want to cater to. It is their choice. 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    subxaero said:

    SUmming up i beleive   companies are trying way too hard to be innovative ...
    specifically what innovations are you talking about? as for your list it seems more of a list of what they are not doing but your core point is about something undesclosed that they ARE doing...unless I missed it

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    subxaero said:

    SUmming up i beleive   companies are trying way too hard to be innovative ...
    specifically what innovations are you talking about? as for your list it seems more of a list of what they are not doing but your core point is about something undesclosed that they ARE doing...unless I missed it
    .. innovations in expanding game type beyond old MMO ideas? 

    MOBAs were new when LoL was first launched.

    Destiny was a new try, although not reviewed well.

    Blizz is trying a different kind of online shooter. 

    Wargaming net became successful in doing WW2 based instanced pvp.

    Marvel Heroes blends ARPG & MMORPG with a great IP license. 
    .... 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    subxaero said:

    SUmming up i beleive   companies are trying way too hard to be innovative ...
    specifically what innovations are you talking about? as for your list it seems more of a list of what they are not doing but your core point is about something undesclosed that they ARE doing...unless I missed it
    .. innovations in expanding game type beyond old MMO ideas? 

    MOBAs were new when LoL was first launched.

    Destiny was a new try, although not reviewed well.

    Blizz is trying a different kind of online shooter. 

    Wargaming net became successful in doing WW2 based instanced pvp.

    Marvel Heroes blends ARPG & MMORPG with a great IP license. 
    .... 
    it is my opinion you should have added those to your OP.

    anyway, thanks for clarifying.

    on thing though, Destiny was not in innovation in MMORPGs. it was a marketing rip off

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • spidiispidii Member UncommonPosts: 143
    Pepeq said:
    Problem with your thinking is that you are using your past experiences to make judgements *for* a player base that perhaps wasn't even born when you started playing.

    The newer generation, and you know who they are because you have zero frame of reference with them on any level, don't see games the same way you do.  What you see as utopia is utterly boring to them.  It's why games that feature nostalgic elements often fail.

    Try mentioning Billy Beer to someone born in the 80s... they have zero frame of reference to it.  Games are no different... as time goes on, games change because the people playing them have.  You may wish to stay in the past, but the world around you doesn't stand still.  Hence your belief that there is a problem with MMOs.  A good number of people don't see them as problems... they also don't visit sites such as this.  Your preaching to the choir... most of the peeps here are older than dirt as their kids would say and dinosaurs by their own definition.

    I agree with this on some level, however, I would ask why mmos are still failing? If these companies are adapting these games to a newer generation as you say, then why are they still heavily criticized, forced to merge and eventually canceled. I think Millenials are still the target audience in most cases, they are the voice that needs to be heard. When I was in my teens and gaming, everything was new and shiny so it didn't necessarily matter that they catered to me because I would accept mostly anything. It's the hardened veterans in my opinion that are the hardest to please and are not by any means a vocal minority, the majority of people playing are those who played 10 years ago it seems to me. I don't think people change as drastically as you may think and the OP's points I believe are valid and done right, would appeal to young and old gamers alike. There is a reason we all loved mmos 10 years ago and don't now and it's pretty clear this "new generation" isn't able to keep a game open by themselves.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Robokapp said:



    They were far from new. What they were not is mainstream.

    I played DotA (THE DotA in wc3) well before LoL.
    DotA is a mod, not a full game.

    LoL is the first commercial MOBA. But even if LoL is the second one .. it is still new compared to many mmorpgs. 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Robokapp said:



    They were far from new. What they were not is mainstream.

    I played DotA (THE DotA in wc3) well before LoL.
    DotA is a mod, not a full game.

    LoL is the first commercial MOBA. But even if LoL is the second one .. it is still new compared to many mmorpgs. 
    in fact, I know that MMORPG is becoming hard and hard to define in a differentaiting manner however with that said I would not consider MOBA to even be in the same lineage as an MMORPG to begin with. Its more in the linage of multiplayer shooters.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,769
    Heronn said:
    subxaero said:

    This^ exactly my thoughts, i still beileve its better that the game forces u to play with either a friend or make friends through grouping rather than solo  stomping it, we are talking about MMOs at the end of the day.

    THey should also upgrade the role of the guilds/pacts or whatsoever they can be called. Automaticly finding groups for raids/dungeons destroyed the purpose of being in a good guild or the purpose of trying to improve it. From fantastic open area PvP like DAOC offered  some lnog time ago to the PvE  peak of guilds in TBC/WoTLK(still remember  i had to read more than 15-20 applications in a point a day as  recruit officer)

    No it certainly stopped idle chatter, but the group finding did way more good then bad.

    The real problem is the notion of a dungeon and "raids", what would they mean to developers outside the blizzard sphere?

    The template is nothing but a man made invention, It's time to throw it away and or improve on it...I understand the concept of a game dungeon stretches as far back as the invention of the computer, but there was no such thing as one kind of implementation.

    Even a level based mmo is a figment of one persons imagination that became a norm, so much falsities lol.

    These are games which are abstractions and are all made up.  DERP.

    As to dungeons, just look back at dnd and their modules.  That is where gaming got dungeons.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • cerulean2012cerulean2012 Member UncommonPosts: 492
    spidii said:
    Pepeq said:
    Problem with your thinking is that you are using your past experiences to make judgements *for* a player base that perhaps wasn't even born when you started playing.

    The newer generation, and you know who they are because you have zero frame of reference with them on any level, don't see games the same way you do.  What you see as utopia is utterly boring to them.  It's why games that feature nostalgic elements often fail.

    Try mentioning Billy Beer to someone born in the 80s... they have zero frame of reference to it.  Games are no different... as time goes on, games change because the people playing them have.  You may wish to stay in the past, but the world around you doesn't stand still.  Hence your belief that there is a problem with MMOs.  A good number of people don't see them as problems... they also don't visit sites such as this.  Your preaching to the choir... most of the peeps here are older than dirt as their kids would say and dinosaurs by their own definition.

    I agree with this on some level, however, I would ask why mmos are still failing? If these companies are adapting these games to a newer generation as you say, then why are they still heavily criticized, forced to merge and eventually canceled. I think Millenials are still the target audience in most cases, they are the voice that needs to be heard. When I was in my teens and gaming, everything was new and shiny so it didn't necessarily matter that they catered to me because I would accept mostly anything. It's the hardened veterans in my opinion that are the hardest to please and are not by any means a vocal minority, the majority of people playing are those who played 10 years ago it seems to me. I don't think people change as drastically as you may think and the OP's points I believe are valid and done right, would appeal to young and old gamers alike. There is a reason we all loved mmos 10 years ago and don't now and it's pretty clear this "new generation" isn't able to keep a game open by themselves.
    Spidii, The question I have is who is saying that current MMOs are failing?

    Most may not have 3, 4, 5+ millions players but the only true indication that they failed is if they shut down and I have not seen many "newer" MMOs shut down in the past year.

    I agree with Pepeq, us older players remember things we liked about mmos from the past and we may not like how a lot of mmos have been developed recently but they are being developed for what the majority of people want now not what the nostalgic group (us) wants.  Bottom line, companies are making money on what is being put out and as long as they are the will continue with it.

    We can rebel with not buying mmos and sure if enough do that then they might decide that mmos are done and start developing some other type of game and we can sit in forums moaning about there being no mmos. 

    So even though I may not like everything in the "new" mmos, I still like mmos and still play them and will play them until the day they all stop or the day I am unable to play (death).
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