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Smells like Archeage 2.0

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    laserit said:
    You're missing my point and it has nothing to do with subscriptions.

    I'd rather have 10 spending $5 a month than 2 spending $10 a month.

    I'd really like to see how Zenimax is making out with ESO, because IMHO that is the most respectable business model in the industry. I wish it nothing but success, that is the direction I would like to see these business models to go.
    That may be what you want to see, but it's pretty clear the F2P game industry doesn't. If that was a more viable business model, you would. But you don't.

    If the Industry could bring in profit  of One Billion Dollars an Hour... It still wouldn't be good enough.

    That's the world we live in.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

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  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,685
    edited February 2016
    laserit said:


    You're missing my point and it has nothing to do with subscriptions.

    I'd rather have 10 spending $5 a month than 2 spending $10 a month.

    I'd really like to see how Zenimax is making out with ESO, because IMHO that is the most respectable business model in the industry. I wish it nothing but success, that is the direction I would like to see these business models to go.
    The problem with your numbers is that it's not about 10 spending $5 a month versus 2 spending $10 a month.  It's about 10 spending $5 a month versus 2 spending $1,000 a month.

    If it were really a case of 10 spending $5 a month and 2 spending $10 a month, you'd see companies doing these P2W shenanigans a lot less often.  Instead, all we have is WoW (which is... well, WoW), and FFXIV (whom the director has outright stated that he only cares about making enough to keep the game afloat and doesn't give a crap about maximum profits because they don't have investors, etc).
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    You're missing my point and it has nothing to do with subscriptions.

    I'd rather have 10 spending $5 a month than 2 spending $10 a month.

    I'd really like to see how Zenimax is making out with ESO, because IMHO that is the most respectable business model in the industry. I wish it nothing but success, that is the direction I would like to see these business models to go.
    That may be what you want to see, but it's pretty clear the F2P game industry doesn't. If that was a more viable business model, you would. But you don't.

    If the Industry could bring in profit  of One Billion Dollars an Hour... It still wouldn't be good enough.

    That's the world we live in.
    Unfortunate for those looking for an equitable experience for all.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855
    edited February 2016


    The problem with your numbers is that it's not about 10 spending $5 a month versus 2 spending $10 a month.  It's about 10 spending $5 a month versus 2 spending $1,000 a month.

    If it were really a case of 10 spending $5 a month and 2 spending $10 a month, you'd see companies doing these P2W shenanigans a lot less often.  Instead, all we have is WoW (which is... well, WoW), and FFXIV (whom the director has outright stated that he only cares about making enough to keep the game afloat and doesn't give a crap about maximum profits because they don't have investors, etc).
    I'm going to add to the "exception list".
    I think games that want to have a major draw from E-Sports might try to avoid P2W business models. 
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,685
    edited February 2016


    I'm going to add to the "exception list".
    I think games that want to have a major draw from E-Sports might try to avoid P2W business models. 
    True.  I'd hope no head producer is stupid enough to think a game can have a thriving e-sports on a P2W model XD

    (though I wouldn't be too surprised if someone did...)
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    laserit said:


    You're missing my point and it has nothing to do with subscriptions.

    I'd rather have 10 spending $5 a month than 2 spending $10 a month.

    I'd really like to see how Zenimax is making out with ESO, because IMHO that is the most respectable business model in the industry. I wish it nothing but success, that is the direction I would like to see these business models to go.
    I would too because I can't imagine they are making much. They just don't have enough in that "store".



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  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    edited February 2016
    DMKano said:
    I personally think the game is at least as good as GW2 and there will be little incentive to ditch that model completely and switch to a model (the Archeage model) that has proven to fail here.

    You keep talking about ArcheAge as if nothing changed since launch which was over a year and a half ago -

    ArcheAge *TODAY* is still extremely profitable and to call it a "failure" would be absurd.



    Things certainly changed.  They merged servers, population is way down.

    I have no idea how profitable it is since they don't release numbers, but I think it could've done way better than it did or is doing.

    However if what you say is true and Archeage is a success, I fear for the future of MMOs because I really don't want the management of that game to be a role model.

    XLGames grabbed all the money they could and Trion fucked up at just about every turn possible.  If that results in success, we're going to be in for a bad time.
    It may be hard to get an exact number on AA player numbers but it is safe to say it is still one of the most played games. This is a list for MMOs in the western market.

    http://massivelyop.com/2015/06/11/perfect-ten-the-top-10-healthiest-live-mmos/

    1)  WOW
    2)  GW2
    3)  FF14
    4)  ESO
    5)  SWTOR
    6) ArcheAge
    7) Runescape
    8) EVE Online
    9) Marvel Heroes
    10) Neverwinter

    Granted this is not a completely accurate account of numbers but Massively did their best to draw from many sources to come up with the list.

    the following sources to compile data, references, and indicators to help make decision:
    • Reddit (subscribers to MMO subreddits)
    • Massively OP news coverage
    • Topsy (social media analytics, particularly for Twitter mentions for the past 30 days, some title names are common words and could not be included)
    • Raptr (most played games using that tracking service)
    • Steam Charts (peak concurrency for the past 30 days on that platform)
    • Google Trends (news headline count)
    • Tally of mentions on 300 general (more than one game covered) MMO blog posts over a span of three days
    • Twitch (viewer count)
    • Xfire MMOs
    • YouTube (game-related videos updated in the past 30 days)

    This was posted June 11th 2015




    What's interesting about that list is GW2 is second only to WoW.  The game, like BDO, opened as B2P with no P2W.  The main game is now f2p but you have to buy the expansion, so basically it's a continuation of B2P.

    Why can't BDO follow the same path, and more importantly, why wouldn't Daum be aiming for the same path?

    The game seems at least as good as GW2.  Why would they be scheming this secret plan to try to reach number 6 by unleashing a nefarious f2p/p2w model in a few months when it seems number 2 is perfectly within their grasp if they simply stick with how they're launching the game?
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    Even with B2P BDO is VERY different from GW2.

    1) GW2 has actual content.
    2) It has the complete opposite approach to gear scaling and stat balance.

    If you think BDO will see anything close to the success that GW2 has had you are completely out of touch with the MMO market.

    I have seen people claim SWTOR, FFXIV, Wildstar, ESO and other games would be soo much better than GW2 and none of them lived up to that hype.
  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    Jacobin are you going to play BDO?  I was just wonder sense you spend so much time on the bdo forum section.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

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  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    There seems to be a wealth of things to do. I only played one beta event but Having something to do was not an issue. Not sure where the complaints of not having any content comes from.
    Complaints mostly come from themepark players and the f2p / RMT gold farmer crowd, at least from what i have seen.  One of the biggest RMT players started streaming BDO and quit after he realized he could not sell gold in the game, I laughed my ass off and was glad he quit the game.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    The same could be said for lots of other people. F2P/P2W is a disgusting monetization method that has ruined the integrity of PvP in this genre. Pointing out how flawed these types of games are will hopefully prevent at least a few people in our market from getting scammed so easily once again.

    Sorry if this in some way disrupts your happy little hugbox.
  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    Jacobin said:
    The same could be said for lots of other people. F2P/P2W is a disgusting monetization method that has ruined the integrity of PvP in this genre. Pointing out how flawed these types of games are will hopefully prevent at least a few people in our market from getting scammed so easily once again.

    Sorry if this in some way disrupts your happy little hugbox.
    So you judge a game without even trying it out first?  That is just ignorant IMO.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    So you judge a game without even trying it out first?  That is just ignorant IMO.
    You don't need to play a game to understand how the mechanics work if you do some research. BTW one of the core features of this site is to review and discuss games to see if they are worth playing.
  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    It's odd you camp this forum and yet you don't say shit about other games like B&S and the like.  Why is that?

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    I never see you on any BDO twitch streams...very odd research on your part.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited February 2016
    I don't care about 4+ year old games and If I want to play 1v1 I will just get Street Fighter in a week.

    And lol @ twitch streams for research.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    Jacobin said:
    Even with B2P BDO is VERY different from GW2.

    1) GW2 has actual content.
    2) It has the complete opposite approach to gear scaling and stat balance.

    If you think BDO will see anything close to the success that GW2 has had you are completely out of touch with the MMO market.

    I have seen people claim SWTOR, FFXIV, Wildstar, ESO and other games would be soo much better than GW2 and none of them lived up to that hype.
    I sure hope it's different.  I, for one, didn't like GW2 at all.  Didn't play it for more than a couple days despite paying for it.

    However, I've at least played both games, and I think BDO is by far better, and because of it's more sandboxy nature, I believe it has more staying power.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Jacobin said:
    The same could be said for lots of other people. F2P/P2W is a disgusting monetization method that has ruined the integrity of PvP in this genre. Pointing out how flawed these types of games are will hopefully prevent at least a few people in our market from getting scammed so easily once again.
    How has F2P/P2W ruined the integrity of PVP in the genre?

    For that matter, how many games are you talking about?
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855

    What's interesting about that list is GW2 is second only to WoW.  The game, like BDO, opened as B2P with no P2W.  The main game is now f2p but you have to buy the expansion, so basically it's a continuation of B2P.

    Why can't BDO follow the same path, and more importantly, why wouldn't Daum be aiming for the same path?

    The game seems at least as good as GW2.  Why would they be scheming this secret plan to try to reach number 6 by unleashing a nefarious f2p/p2w model in a few months when it seems number 2 is perfectly within their grasp if they simply stick with how they're launching the game?
    In almost every other game with a similar RMT structure, the business model that GW2 uses is P2W. But as I said in the post above, It's because ANET wants to push into the E-Sport Arena. Their game mechanics preclude P2W, not the business model.

    In almost any other game, the ability to use real $$$ to get a character to level cap and with almost BiS gear is considered P2W. But in GW2, becasue of how the game itself is designed, those factors don't matter. In other games, they do.


    GW2 is not P2W, but it's not a good example of how not to do P2W.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited February 2016
    How is BDO even remotely a sandbox? At least in AA the housing and farming isn't instanced. If you can't do things that actually affect the world like build and destroy structures then its not a sandbox. Games like Rust and Ark are actual pvp sandbox games. If you want a more MMO example its Darkfall, Shadowbane or Eve.

    I guess games that have very long and repetitive crafting grinds and require navigating through complex menu systems are what passes for sandboxes in MMOs. 
  • Jonas_SGJonas_SG Member UncommonPosts: 475
    Rhoklaw said:

    So the question isn't whether or not BDO will do well, because it will, simply because its B2P. So now the question is, does BDO offer enough for players to do in order to provide everyone ample amounts of entertainment to stick around for more than a year. Well, I guess we'll have to see, but as of right now, BDO offers about 80-85% of the features that AA provides, plus the graphics are a bit better and it's more of a true sandbox game.

    Simply because it B2P - 50 to 70% of players will not be playing it.

    Simply because there is no Open Beta - 50 to 70% of players will not be playing it.

    Simply because it releases at the same time as The Division - 50 to 70% of players will not be playing it.


    Black Desert population could have been 3x times of the current one, if it stayed F2P, had Open Beta and released in Early February.


    The Fail of this game in EU/NA is  based on Daum EU poor management.

    IF you look at the number of pre-orders which is around 100k pr region - this game has already failed. It's just a question how big of a failure it's going to be.


    People don't realise that this game needs massive population inorder to have End Game PvP ( Sieges, Node and Teritorial Wars). Even on Ru Megaserver with the population of 300+k Players People don't come to the Castle and Territorial Sieges. For weeks some castle stayed empty with out anyone assualting them.  And we are talking about RUssian region - that is known for having massive PvP playebase.

    This game needs saving now, not praising for it failures Rhoklaw.





  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Jonas_SG said:

    Simply because it B2P - 50 to 70% of players will not be playing it.

    Simply because there is no Open Beta - 50 to 70% of players will not be playing it.

    Simply because it releases at the same time as The Division - 50 to 70% of players will not be playing it.

    Black Desert population could have been 3x times of the current one, if it stayed F2P, had Open Beta and released in Early February.

    F2P would require them to either alter the game design greatly and or go with a more P2W - Pay for Convenience straight out of the gates. Looking at some of the critics here, that would spell the games doom just as your issues. So guess it's a lose/lose no matter what.

    Someone can get their hands on a CB key or play one of the F2P versions for less than $5-10 if they really are interested and don't want to drop a massive $30 on a risk.

    Still not sure how The Division has any impact on BDO. Never heard of a FPS/tactical game pulling customers from a fantasy mmorpg. Obviously is someone enjoys both they might play one instead of the other, but they are so different that many would probably just play both when they feel like it. The Division has had a ton of critics to this point, honestly don't believe it is going to be a massive hit right away if ever.

    No doubt that BDO or any product could have more customers if they did XYZ, but is what it is and playing the "what if" game doesn't accomplish much.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139

    Jacobin said:
    How is BDO even remotely a sandbox? At least in AA the housing and farming isn't instanced. If you can't do things that actually affect the world like build and destroy structures then its not a sandbox. Games like Rust and Ark are actual pvp sandbox games. If you want a more MMO example its Darkfall, Shadowbane or Eve.

    I guess games that have very long and repetitive crafting grinds and require navigating through complex menu systems are what passes for sandboxes in MMOs. 
    "Sandbox" is a subjective buzzword with some common elements that people seem to agree (or not) on.

    Compared to something like WoW, BDO has more "sandbox" like features, but compared to Rust, obviously not as much.

    For me all these games fit on a large range and debating if one is X or Y gets no where.

    Personally, I'd take BDO's very smooth "instanced" aspects over the mess that AA and other land grab games seem to suffer from.

    Also why I like Crowfall and games that allow victory/loss conditions. Games with open world static POI that can be controlled forever by a group/individual leads to a lot of problems. Your skill usually comes a far 3rd to time/money spent along with team size numbers.
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