Valve sued once again.

BrenicsBrenics Warren, MIMember RarePosts: 1,939
edited December 2015 in General Gaming
This should be interesting for French steam users.

http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-sued-by-french-consumer-association/

Moderators, hope I put this in right place, if not please move.
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Post edited by Amana on
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Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,985
    Valve should block all French users and post the phone and address of the party behind the lawsuit in a login failed window- the matter would be solved within 48 hours
  • cameltosiscameltosis ipswichMember EpicPosts: 1,674
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,985
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 

    Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country. 

    Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

    Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

    Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit :)

  • AthisarAthisar Leamington SpaMember UncommonPosts: 647
    DMKano said:
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 

    Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country. 

    Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

    Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

    Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit :)

    That is pretty broad and not exactly correct. Any company that offers a service in GBP for instance is considered to be targeting the UK, and is bound by UK trading and advertising law.
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,917
    I have to agree that they have a point here:

    Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SMember UncommonPosts: 1,421
    DMKano said:
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 

    Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country. 

    Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

    Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

    Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit :)

    wrong, countrys put law saying if a bussines want to do bussines inside they sovereign they are obliged to follow that country laws, don't matter if they have a physical office or server in said country.

    btw the lawsuite have valid points
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemMember RarePosts: 1,974
    edited December 2015
    DMKano said:
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 

    Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country. 

    Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

    Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

    Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit :)

    wrong, countrys put law saying if a bussines want to do bussines inside they sovereign they are obliged to follow that country laws, don't matter if they have a physical office or server in said country.

    btw the lawsuite have valid points
    I'm not sure this is correct when it comes to offshore business. If you look at the terms of service of companies that operate in other countries it even tells you where disputes have to be mediated in the event there is one.
    Post edited by FlyByKnight on
  • ReizlaReizla 127.0.0.1Member RarePosts: 4,040
    Loke666 said:
    I have to agree that they have a point here:

    Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.
    Yeah, Valve states that, but since it's also selling within the EU, Valve should comply to EU law as well. And one of the EU laws states that games (either physical or digital) can be resold by the current owner of the game. This law also makes most 'license instead of ownership' agreement that almost every softwarehouse uses void as well...

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  • AthisarAthisar Leamington SpaMember UncommonPosts: 647
    DMKano said:
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 

    Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country. 

    Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

    Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

    Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit :)

    wrong, countrys put law saying if a bussines want to do bussines inside they sovereign they are obliged to follow that country laws, don't matter if they have a physical office or server in said country.

    btw the lawsuite have valid points
    I'm not sure this is correct when it comes to offshore business. If you look at the terms of service of companies that operate in other countries it even tells you where disputes have to be mediated in the event there is one.
    Terms of service are essentially meaningless outside of a court, they can say pretty much whatever they like in them but only a court can uphold anything in them to make them binding. The problem is that most people (obviously) don't want to go to court, and so get fobbed off by terms of services that have no legal basis whatsoever. One of the most common is the blanket 'no refunds' policy of lots of companies, that are explicitly illegal in many cases in the EU.
  • BrenicsBrenics Warren, MIMember RarePosts: 1,939
    I have to agree with @DMKano on this one, there will be loopholes value will be able to use.
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • scorpex-xscorpex-x IAMember RarePosts: 1,030
    edited December 2015
    DMKano said:
    Valve should block all French users and post the phone and address of the party behind the lawsuit in a login failed window- the matter would be solved within 48 hours
    Why are you anti consumer?

    Nothing they are suing over is bad, it makes steam a better company for the users.

    ---

    • Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.
    • Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.
    • Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.
    • It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.
    • Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

    Post edited by scorpex-x on
  • HatefullHatefull Member RarePosts: 1,473
    Loke666 said:
    I have to agree that they have a point here:

    Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.
    I remember reading that, it makes the most sense.  I personally hate valve/steam/etc but that is just me.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolMember RarePosts: 1,478
    If you don't like the terms don't use Steam, it's simple. I hardly ever buy anything on Steam because the prices are crap, unless they have a sale on. I also find it satisfying to have a box to hold when I buy something.

    I also don't like their no refund policy so I tend to buy elsewhere.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,455
    I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam.  While it is not perfect, it gets better every year.  They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,208
    Interesting comments... apparently it's not about right or wrong, it's about what Valve could do to get away with their policies more easily.

    The bullet points look like something worth challenging to me. But that's just me I guess.


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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshMember RarePosts: 6,382
    If you don't like the terms don't use Steam, it's simple. I hardly ever buy anything on Steam because the prices are crap, unless they have a sale on. I also find it satisfying to have a box to hold when I buy something.

    I also don't like their no refund policy so I tend to buy elsewhere.
    The prices on Steam are often amazing and they also have an amazing refund policy. Full refund, no question asked if you've played under 2 hours or it's been under 2 weeks. The reasons you list, at least for me, are the best reasons to use Steam.
  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 656
    edited December 2015
    It seems a lot of people are missing that valve's agreement does directly conflict with french law, the most obvious instance of which being that valve does not allow you to sell or transfer your digital games, despite that being completely legal in France.  That does not change by clicking "I Agree."  Valve is trying to use the same terms and conditions for every country, but they are going to have to suck it up and consider that different countries mean different laws.  If they want to have the same blanket terms for everyone, they are going to have to give their users every right granted by any country.

    For those ragging on France or the French players that want this changed, you are being ridiculous.  If Valve wants to sell in France, they have to abide by the French laws.  If Valve ends up changing this for everyone then we all stand to benefit.

    France may be on to something here, right now companies love digital copies because we are just purchasing a license to use the software (that they can revoke).  It would be really nice to be able to have been able to give a friend a single player game once I had finished it.  When I was a child my friends and I shared music, movies, and games because they were all physical.  We trade them around and everyone would end up getting to see whatever it was they wanted.  It has been years since I even considered doing anything like that.
    Post edited by Baitness on
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,455
    Personally, I dont understand why software is treated differently than other things.  Why is it "leased" to the user and not sold?  Why does a user not have any rights after buying software?  Why are software companies allowed to change their terms of service or end user license's whenever it suits them?  If my financial company changes its terms, they have to send a notice out to all users in writing. 
     
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SMember UncommonPosts: 1,421
    Talonsin said:
    I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam.  While it is not perfect, it gets better every year.  They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.
    I still have games who use cd keys and need the cd to run it, you know what? I miss these, before I could play it any machine I own, without a problem or limit, now I need permission to play it, so i'm forced to hack it after some year to play again
    Talonsin said:
    Personally, I dont understand why software is treated differently than other things.  Why is it "leased" to the user and not sold?  Why does a user not have any rights after buying software?  Why are software companies allowed to change their terms of service or end user license's whenever it suits them?  If my financial company changes its terms, they have to send a notice out to all users in writing. 
     
    mostly because people think code are diferently from a hard product since it not tangible, and that way they can force people to do what they want, or think they can, just remember how many minutes it takes a game to become avaiable for anyone to piracy it after such game is launched
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • GruntyGrunty TexasMember RarePosts: 8,158
    edited December 2015
    Talonsin said:
    I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam.  While it is not perfect, it gets better every year.  They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.
    I prefer my hard copies and product keys to be sitting on my shelf. Not in someone else's database that can disappear at any time they choose to erase it.

    Steam is a for profit corporation. Some day Steam will either be sold off or go out of business. Steam's rules say that if I move those games sitting on my shelf into Steam's cloud then I give Steam the right to control or even remove my access to those games.  No thanks.

    Half of THQ's games can't be played any longer because their DRM control was tied to Microsoft's Games for Windows Live DRM service that no longer exists. What's going to happen to all your games when Steam evaporates?
    Post edited by Grunty on
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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,673
    Grunty said:
    Talonsin said:
    I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam.  While it is not perfect, it gets better every year.  They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.
    I prefer my hard copies and product keys to be sitting on my shelf. Not in someone else's database that can disappear at any time they choose to erase it.

    Steam is a for profit corporation. Some day Steam will either be sold off or go out of business. Steam's rules say that if I move those games sitting on my shelf into Steam's cloud then I give Steam the right to control or even remove my access to those games.  No thanks.

    Half of THQ's games can't be played any longer because their DRM control was tied to Microsoft's Games for Windows Live DRM service that no longer exists. What's going to happen to all your games when Steam evaporates?
    Play different games? 

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  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Not In ESOMember EpicPosts: 2,229
    scorpex-x said:
    DMKano said:
    Valve should block all French users and post the phone and address of the party behind the lawsuit in a login failed window- the matter would be solved within 48 hours
    Why are you anti consumer?

    Nothing they are suing over is bad, it makes steam a better company for the users.

    ---

    • Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.
    • Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.
    • Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.
    • It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.
    • Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

    And here we have what I feel is the heart of the issue. Valve like many multinational companies saves millions in tax revenue by incorporating in the tax haven of Luxembourg. Yet once again we have European courts attempting to demonize foreign business while ignoring the corruption in their own backyards.

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  • VrikaVrika FinlandMember RarePosts: 4,214
    edited December 2015
    scorpex-x said:
    DMKano said:
    Valve should block all French users and post the phone and address of the party behind the lawsuit in a login failed window- the matter would be solved within 48 hours
    Why are you anti consumer?

    Nothing they are suing over is bad, it makes steam a better company for the users.

    ---

    • Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.
    • Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.
    • Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.
    • It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.
    • Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

    And here we have what I feel is the heart of the issue. Valve like many multinational companies saves millions in tax revenue by incorporating in the tax haven of Luxembourg. Yet once again we have European courts attempting to demonize foreign business while ignoring the corruption in their own backyards.
    So it's your opinion that France should attack Luxemburg and conquer them because their sovereign country does not follow French laws.

    What other countries should they conquer while they're at it?

    EDIT: While some of EU's legal means are limited as they can't override Luxemburg's laws, short of attacking the country they're actually doing quite a lot to Luxemburg:

    -In 2015 VAT rules changed so that companies can't evade sales tax by having offices in Luxemburg any more: http://www.vatlive.com/eu-vat-rules/2015-digital-services-moss/2015-digital-services-changes/
    -In 2015 EU agreed to share some data on tax deals made between governments and multinational corporations: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/business/eu-to-share-data-on-tax-deals-with-multinational-companies.html?_r=0
    -In 2014 Luxemburg was pressured to drop its bank secrecy laws. Once the change happens that'll reduce tax evasion a lot: http://www.euractiv.com/sections/euro-finance/luxembourg-drops-bank-secrecy-rules-after-years-pressure-309175
    Post edited by Vrika on
     
  • fivorothfivoroth LondonMember UncommonPosts: 3,916
    DMKano said:
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 

    Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country. 

    Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

    Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

    Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit :)

    Yeah, no. IF you are selling games to EU customers, it doesn't matter where you sell them from, you need to comply with EU laws.

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  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,985
    fivoroth said:
    DMKano said:
    Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up. 

    Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country. 

    Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

    Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

    Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit :)

    Yeah, no. IF you are selling games to EU customers, it doesn't matter where you sell them from, you need to comply with EU laws.
    Nope.

    If a French citizen willingly goes to a Chinese site to buy an account in China on Chinese servers - now this Chinese company (that has no assets, or servers or ANYTHING in France) has to follow French laws?

    Yeah... good luck on that.

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