Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

GW2 going into e-sports

13

Comments

  • EQBallzzEQBallzz Member UncommonPosts: 229
    YashaX said:
    EQBallzz said:
    Realm v realm esport , definitely going to be popular. Who will win this one johhny, zerg from realm x has 80 players, oh but wait, it looks like zerg from realm y has , yes they have 150 players zerg x has got thier hands full, stay tuned folks this ones going to be intense
    lol. I thought something similar when I read this. I can't think of a more boring esport to watch. GW2 PVP was boring to play so I can't imagine why anyone would watch it. Oh look how well he dodged that non-descript ground AE and then used his non-descript self heal and utility! Oh look how his opponent countered with his own non-descript dodge and non-descript self heal and utility! So exciting!
    One or both of you seem to have totally misunderstood what part of GW2's pvp is being pushed as an esport.
    I assume you are referring to Righteous_Rock since his comment was about zerging which is more associated with RVR combat but my comment was about the combat itself so I don't see why that isn't relevant. Boring, uninspired combat = boring, uninspired esport IMO. Then again, I don't watch esport really so..
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    EQBallzz said:
    YashaX said:
    EQBallzz said:
    Realm v realm esport , definitely going to be popular. Who will win this one johhny, zerg from realm x has 80 players, oh but wait, it looks like zerg from realm y has , yes they have 150 players zerg x has got thier hands full, stay tuned folks this ones going to be intense
    lol. I thought something similar when I read this. I can't think of a more boring esport to watch. GW2 PVP was boring to play so I can't imagine why anyone would watch it. Oh look how well he dodged that non-descript ground AE and then used his non-descript self heal and utility! Oh look how his opponent countered with his own non-descript dodge and non-descript self heal and utility! So exciting!
    One or both of you seem to have totally misunderstood what part of GW2's pvp is being pushed as an esport.
    I assume you are referring to Righteous_Rock since his comment was about zerging which is more associated with RVR combat but my comment was about the combat itself so I don't see why that isn't relevant. Boring, uninspired combat = boring, uninspired esport IMO. Then again, I don't watch esport really so..
    He says "realm vs realm esport" and talks about zergs and 150 vs 80 players. You say "I thought something similar". So my comment obviously applies to both posts.

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.
    ....
  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317
    YashaX said:
     

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.

     I'm betting that he talked to a guy once that knew somebody that read a review by a guy that got to try the beta at E3.


    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    eye_m said:
    YashaX said:
     

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.

     I'm betting that he talked to a guy once that knew somebody that read a review by a guy that got to try the beta at E3.


    He probably logged in when f2p then saw he could move and had a hotbar.  Threw up his hands screaming wow clone and went back to wow.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • EQBallzzEQBallzz Member UncommonPosts: 229
    filmoret said:
    eye_m said:
    YashaX said:
     

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.

     I'm betting that he talked to a guy once that knew somebody that read a review by a guy that got to try the beta at E3.


    He probably logged in when f2p then saw he could move and had a hotbar.  Threw up his hands screaming wow clone and went back to wow.
    Nice baseless speculation and generalization there. Also, nice attempt at a typical "WoW dig". I played WoW long ago from launch to Burning Crusade and it was a good game at the time but I don't see what that has to do with anything except maybe that WoW is a superior MMO in every way except for graphics.

    Actually, I bought GW2 at launch and leveled up two characters and partially leveled up a couple others (I enjoyed the leveling process and environments). There were aspects of the game I really enjoyed and I thought the game looked great and had a great artistic style. I was also interested in how they were going to execute on the idea of doing away with the holy trinity. I was also wondering how the "cosmetic only" upgrade system would work for progression to keep PvP "fair" (based on what I experienced this doesn't work and is boring - I'll take a gear treadmill over that anyday). I was actually looking forward to GW2 prior to launch and in some ways it delivered but in other more important ways it fell way short.

    Based on what I saw it only made me realize that doing away with the holy trinity is a bad idea unless it's replaced with something revolutionary and GW2 is nothing like that. Roles and class interdependance is what creates dynamic and emergent gameplay and GW2 classes are a homogenous, boring mess. Every class has basically the same abilities but just different weapons and animations. Every class has some form of self heal and utility and dps. Grouping (including PvP) was unorganized, zergy and consisted of constant AE circle dodging. Not fun.

    In fact, the first dungeon in the game is what mostly turned me off to the game. It was so unfun and painful and so lacking in rewards that it made me realize my time in GW2 was a waste of time. Why would I want to zerg my way through a painful dungeon where every person in the group is playing their own little personal survival game with little inter-group dependance and for rewards that would not even improve my character except mostly in the form of a costume (not to mention the repair costs)? I know some may enjoy this but IMO it's shallow and boring.

    The irony of it all was that even in a system that was meant to do away with roles the people forming groups still attempted to build groups around certain classes (paladin for example) in such a way to maximize survival so it didn't remove roles at all..it just made them weak and unfun. I haven't played the game in a long time (quit long before it went F2P) so I can't speak to the current state of the game but that is the impression it left me with and unless they added dedicated roles and actual itemization I doubt much has changed.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    EQBallzz said:
    filmoret said:
    eye_m said:
    YashaX said:
     

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.

     I'm betting that he talked to a guy once that knew somebody that read a review by a guy that got to try the beta at E3.


    He probably logged in when f2p then saw he could move and had a hotbar.  Threw up his hands screaming wow clone and went back to wow.
    Nice baseless speculation and generalization there. Also, nice attempt at a typical "WoW dig". I played WoW long ago from launch to Burning Crusade and it was a good game at the time but I don't see what that has to do with anything except maybe that WoW is a superior MMO in every way except for graphics.

    Actually, I bought GW2 at launch and leveled up two characters and partially leveled up a couple others (I enjoyed the leveling process and environments). There were aspects of the game I really enjoyed and I thought the game looked great and had a great artistic style. I was also interested in how they were going to execute on the idea of doing away with the holy trinity. I was also wondering how the "cosmetic only" upgrade system would work for progression to keep PvP "fair" (based on what I experienced this doesn't work and is boring - I'll take a gear treadmill over that anyday). I was actually looking forward to GW2 prior to launch and in some ways it delivered but in other more important ways it fell way short.

    Based on what I saw it only made me realize that doing away with the holy trinity is a bad idea unless it's replaced with something revolutionary and GW2 is nothing like that. Roles and class interdependance is what creates dynamic and emergent gameplay and GW2 classes are a homogenous, boring mess. Every class has basically the same abilities but just different weapons and animations. Every class has some form of self heal and utility and dps. Grouping (including PvP) was unorganized, zergy and consisted of constant AE circle dodging. Not fun.

    In fact, the first dungeon in the game is what mostly turned me off to the game. It was so unfun and painful and so lacking in rewards that it made me realize my time in GW2 was a waste of time. Why would I want to zerg my way through a painful dungeon where every person in the group is playing their own little personal survival game with little inter-group dependance and for rewards that would not even improve my character except mostly in the form of a costume (not to mention the repair costs)? I know some may enjoy this but IMO it's shallow and boring.

    The irony of it all was that even in a system that was meant to do away with roles the people forming groups still attempted to build groups around certain classes (paladin for example) in such a way to maximize survival so it didn't remove roles at all..it just made them weak and unfun. I haven't played the game in a long time (quit long before it went F2P) so I can't speak to the current state of the game but that is the impression it left me with and unless they added dedicated roles and actual itemization I doubt much has changed.
    I think from a pvp perspective, which is what this thread is about, you really don't understand the game. There are actually clear roles, but these are formed around "builds" not classes. And the interaction and synergy between classes, abilities, and builds is far greater than in WoW, and possibly in any other mmo.

    It terms of combat mechanics, including class synergy and the like, GW2 has moved far, far beyond the simplistic ideas in games like WOW and Rift. That in a way is also its weakness, because the complexity and depth of the system can be hard to understand for the average viewer or new player.
    ....
  • exile01exile01 Member RarePosts: 1,089
    Watching and playing GW2 with those colours and spell effects makes me wanna puke somewhere.

    After 4y they want to get into esports? First they must change the whole spell effects  and combat- a system that wont make you dizzy while *experiencing" it. GW2 combat sucks bad.
  • legend1337legend1337 Member UncommonPosts: 7
    lol exile, official gw2 hater, cant have it that after *3 years gw2 is still doing very good
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    YashaX said:
    I think from a pvp perspective, which is what this thread is about, you really don't understand the game. There are actually clear roles, but these are formed around "builds" not classes. And the interaction and synergy between classes, abilities, and builds is far greater than in WoW, and possibly in any other mmo.

    It terms of combat mechanics, including class synergy and the like, GW2 has moved far, far beyond the simplistic ideas in games like WOW and Rift. That in a way is also its weakness, because the complexity and depth of the system can be hard to understand for the average viewer or new player.
    Everytime I see someone say stuff like this my brain says, "Yeah I think they're right, I mean there was all this interesting interaction between skills, maybe I should check it out again!" So I go back for some sPvP and it's fun for a week or two before I just throw my hands up and say, NVM I was wrong.

    I don't think GW2 pvp is particularly complex, what it is, is fast. Skills comes off cooldown fast, combos fields are fast, and certain skill usage is kind of hidden and when it's used it's too fast to really notice. That's why it's hard for a viewer to understand.

    Everything happens in terms of seconds, I have an 80 thief and 80 guardian (obv I haven't picked up the xpac), so a while back Sword MH / Pistol OH was one of the goto equips for thief PvP, the sword's 3rd hit inflicts a blind so of course you turn off auto-attack and queue up 2 main attacks and save the third. A viewer can barely tell you're holding back your third strike and even less that you've just used it to blind a warrior who's trying to go HAM on a support, right before your trigger through a fire field combo.

    By the time anything registers, a million other things have already happened. This is not great for spectating, and while it sounds like it could be complex a lot of it is also happenstance of the game. Because skills refresh so quickly, it's more effective to just use them than it is to wait to create combos or to hold key abilities until you need them. If you actually hold on to that 3rd sword attack (tactical strike), you've likely lost a couple cripples and a couple other blinds that you could have applied by default by auto-attacking. That's the real issue I have with GW2 combat, it's too fast to truly employ strategy or tactics - it feels like it devolves into button mashing even when it isn't. It feels that way because skills are constantly available.

    If you look at MOBA's you notice that skills are usually costly in terms of resource to use and generally have longer cooldowns. So when fights happens, you and the announcers can clearly  X > Y > Z happening. In GW2 everything just blurs together and happens crazy fast. A 5 second CD in GW2 feels like an eternity, utility skills which have much longer cooldowns are like waiting for a solar eclipse.

    That being said, I do think GW2 has all the pieces to make a great eSport, but it needs to slow combat down by 100% (as in double the CD and duration of everything).
  • TheRasTheRas Member CommonPosts: 2
    another mmo trying to make money on the back of customers,everyone know how this things end up  failing or they die in a cesspool of death.
  • Leon1eLeon1e Member UncommonPosts: 791
    edited December 2015
    ^ I think ANet needs to speed the combat up and to go away with the stupid bunkering meta they have right now. As a Gw2 fan, i don't do more than 1-2 games daily, if i log. I was thief main and they turned playing team into borderline impossible. Players with reactions of a dead cat can defeat a good berserker player. So, that's basically why everyone is bunkering right now and it's a freaking snooze fest. The elite specializations are beyond overpowered. I get it, they made the core game f2p in a way that it is a tech demo, but it's borderline unplayable competitively without the heart of thorns expansion. 

    IMO the game was most interesting when people were actually afraid of berserker builds. The most memorable moment i have about sPvP is when team oRNG were losing the freaking game at the world finals but somehow pulled off an intense burst and downed 4 players of the abjured and snowballed the game into a win after that. This shit was pure gold. 

    They they did balance patching and WTS Cologne was a snooze fest. 

    Pro League atm is a snooze fest as well. I hate it.  

    Too many blocks, blurs blinds and whatnot. A druid or bunker mesmer can tank 3 other players over a capture point. 

    Whoever made the call to release this, needs to go. Or at least not be in charge of things. Seriously.
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906

    I got a few questions please bear with me.


    GW2 pvp has equal classes with equal gear and I believe mmorpg players do not want such things.  They want to be the stronger class with the better gear.  I know a lot of people don't believe GW2 has a trinity but it does.  It is deeper in the class design then surface structure.


    My question is why are people confused on what is happening in GW2 pvp?  Is it because they aren't simply killing each other but doing objectives?  Did WOW pvp have objectives or was it kill each other to win?  I'm sure if GW2 had a simple kill the other team to win then you would clearly see the trinity system at work.  Much easier then everyone spread out trying to do certain objectives.  Since your team is build around such objectives.  For example.  I'd have two roamers who were quick so they could help support whoever is holding points and 3 others simply tanky and healing able to hold their own points until the dps showed up to support.  There is a lot of tactics involved with GW2's pvp system and not just murder everyone and win the game.

    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    filmoret said:

    I got a few questions please bear with me.


    GW2 pvp has equal classes with equal gear and I believe mmorpg players do not want such things.  They want to be the stronger class with the better gear.  I know a lot of people don't believe GW2 has a trinity but it does.  It is deeper in the class design then surface structure.


    My question is why are people confused on what is happening in GW2 pvp?  Is it because they aren't simply killing each other but doing objectives?  Did WOW pvp have objectives or was it kill each other to win?  I'm sure if GW2 had a simple kill the other team to win then you would clearly see the trinity system at work.  Much easier then everyone spread out trying to do certain objectives.  Since your team is build around such objectives.  For example.  I'd have two roamers who were quick so they could help support whoever is holding points and 3 others simply tanky and healing able to hold their own points until the dps showed up to support.  There is a lot of tactics involved with GW2's pvp system and not just murder everyone and win the game.


    GW2 does not have equal classes ... not even close. Gear, thankfully, is equal.

    WoW BG's which are like GW2 sPvP are objective based. WoW arena PvP is 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 deathmatches.


  • Leon1eLeon1e Member UncommonPosts: 791
    and to answer @filmoret further ... if you have 2 roamers, which aren't bunker mesmer, you're going to lose. The current meta is pretty bad both to watch and to play. ANet have promised a balance patch as early as February 2016. I'd stray from sPvP until that happens, especially if you don't have the HoT expansion.
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Leon1e said:
    and to answer @filmoret further ... if you have 2 roamers, which aren't bunker mesmer, you're going to lose. The current meta is pretty bad both to watch and to play. ANet have promised a balance patch as early as February 2016. I'd stray from sPvP until that happens, especially if you don't have the HoT expansion.
    Yea it plays differently because its objective instead of deathmatch.  I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't paid for the game to compete against those who have.  It wouldn't be fair to think they should.  Because its objective you end up with bunker builds and the likes.  Which require some balancing possibly but also requires smarter teams to deal with it.  Then we have everyone saying it sucks to watch but only because its not like wow deathmatch.  So we have another topic about another mmo that isn't enough like wow but if it was everyone would cry its a wow clone.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • advokat666advokat666 Member UncommonPosts: 93
    GW2 Esports ? lol, the so called pro scene is so small that most of the times the same players are competing with each other, very little "new faces", which makes it boring to watch after some time. Sponsors show no interest in GW2 at all because of the also low viewer base, so the price money is taken out of the Anet marketing budget. And i don´t even talk about the balancing in this game which is completely out of control since the add-on release. Really GW2 is only esport in the heads of some Anet managers who spend a lot of company money for that already broken dream. To compare that with real esport titles like cs:go, lol, dota, sc etc. etc. is ridiculous and to be honest an insult for these games.
  • Leon1eLeon1e Member UncommonPosts: 791
    filmoret said:
    Leon1e said:
    and to answer @filmoret further ... if you have 2 roamers, which aren't bunker mesmer, you're going to lose. The current meta is pretty bad both to watch and to play. ANet have promised a balance patch as early as February 2016. I'd stray from sPvP until that happens, especially if you don't have the HoT expansion.
    Yea it plays differently because its objective instead of deathmatch.  I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't paid for the game to compete against those who have.  It wouldn't be fair to think they should.  Because its objective you end up with bunker builds and the likes.  Which require some balancing possibly but also requires smarter teams to deal with it.  Then we have everyone saying it sucks to watch but only because its not like wow deathmatch.  So we have another topic about another mmo that isn't enough like wow but if it was everyone would cry its a wow clone.
    I'd love to play the furthest thing away from WoW. Options are really really slim. Gw2 is one of them but it's not the current shape of PvP. 

    I used to be in top 50 in previous "metas" now i can't bring myself to grind the leagues. Especially since there is barely any dynamic within the fight. Teamfights take way too long, which actually reminds of WoW. Basically in WoW fights have a constant duration, e.g. until the healer dies or runs out of MP. Then the fight ends. 

    Gw2 actually has/had a deathmatch map. I absolutely hated it. It ended up in favor of whichever team could zerk better in a circle. Which was kind of sad

    Stronghold, now that was an interesting idea. Honestly, I still can't get the hang of it but it seems a liiiittle bit more PvE than it should be to be a true esports. 

    This only leaves modes like capture the flag or point contesting. Both of which were fun in Quake. 

    I get that since we play capture the point we pretty much need a bunker to hold off an objective. But when that bunker is holding a point, alone, vs 2-3 other equally good players without breaking a sweat...man something is seriously broken.

    When the classes that have been in the meta for the past 3 years are kicked out of it completely you know something is wrong. When you see the greatest thieves and warriors to have ever played this awesome game switch to flavor of the month classes, you know something *is* infact broken in it's current state. Yes I'm referring to Tage/Rom/MagicToker

    I sincerely hope the February path addresses all of this. I literally had no gripes with previous metas. Even when shoutbow/hambow warriors seemed unbeatable and some of us switched to berserker to counter them effectively ... those were the days man. Now there is no glass cannon. There is glass. They chopped off the cannon. 
  • ellobo29ellobo29 Member UncommonPosts: 423
    GW2's chance at crafting a respectable e-sports franchise has already sailed it's ship.

    GW2 launched and remained for years without some very basic requirements for a successful e-sport game. They ignored it too long and the players that were interested in something new, have moved on.
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 1,062
    whats e-sports again? like ingame soccer or something? or they mean capture the flag?

    IMPORTANT:  Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING.  Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally.  If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead.  I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING.  Thank you.
  • EQBallzzEQBallzz Member UncommonPosts: 229
    YashaX said:
    EQBallzz said:
    filmoret said:
    eye_m said:
    YashaX said:
     

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.

     I'm betting that he talked to a guy once that knew somebody that read a review by a guy that got to try the beta at E3.


    He probably logged in when f2p then saw he could move and had a hotbar.  Threw up his hands screaming wow clone and went back to wow.
    Nice baseless speculation and generalization there. Also, nice attempt at a typical "WoW dig". I played WoW long ago from launch to Burning Crusade and it was a good game at the time but I don't see what that has to do with anything except maybe that WoW is a superior MMO in every way except for graphics.

    Actually, I bought GW2 at launch and leveled up two characters and partially leveled up a couple others (I enjoyed the leveling process and environments). There were aspects of the game I really enjoyed and I thought the game looked great and had a great artistic style. I was also interested in how they were going to execute on the idea of doing away with the holy trinity. I was also wondering how the "cosmetic only" upgrade system would work for progression to keep PvP "fair" (based on what I experienced this doesn't work and is boring - I'll take a gear treadmill over that anyday). I was actually looking forward to GW2 prior to launch and in some ways it delivered but in other more important ways it fell way short.

    Based on what I saw it only made me realize that doing away with the holy trinity is a bad idea unless it's replaced with something revolutionary and GW2 is nothing like that. Roles and class interdependance is what creates dynamic and emergent gameplay and GW2 classes are a homogenous, boring mess. Every class has basically the same abilities but just different weapons and animations. Every class has some form of self heal and utility and dps. Grouping (including PvP) was unorganized, zergy and consisted of constant AE circle dodging. Not fun.

    In fact, the first dungeon in the game is what mostly turned me off to the game. It was so unfun and painful and so lacking in rewards that it made me realize my time in GW2 was a waste of time. Why would I want to zerg my way through a painful dungeon where every person in the group is playing their own little personal survival game with little inter-group dependance and for rewards that would not even improve my character except mostly in the form of a costume (not to mention the repair costs)? I know some may enjoy this but IMO it's shallow and boring.

    The irony of it all was that even in a system that was meant to do away with roles the people forming groups still attempted to build groups around certain classes (paladin for example) in such a way to maximize survival so it didn't remove roles at all..it just made them weak and unfun. I haven't played the game in a long time (quit long before it went F2P) so I can't speak to the current state of the game but that is the impression it left me with and unless they added dedicated roles and actual itemization I doubt much has changed.
    I think from a pvp perspective, which is what this thread is about, you really don't understand the game. There are actually clear roles, but these are formed around "builds" not classes. And the interaction and synergy between classes, abilities, and builds is far greater than in WoW, and possibly in any other mmo.

    It terms of combat mechanics, including class synergy and the like, GW2 has moved far, far beyond the simplistic ideas in games like WOW and Rift. That in a way is also its weakness, because the complexity and depth of the system can be hard to understand for the average viewer or new player.

    I won't claim to be an expert on GW2 or the PvP aspect but that's mostly because the game bored me to death and made me quit way before that could happen. The fact that you are trying to say that the game *does* have clear roles is an indication of how the removal of the trinity system has failed. The whole point of doing away with the holy trinity was to remove defined roles so groups weren't beholden to tanks or healers and groups could be formed easily with *any* classes. The fact that people still try to cobble together roles based on builds instead of classes (builds that are reliant on classes in some cases) is just more proof that this system is a failure.

    The holy trinity has it's drawbacks but at least in that system you know what the roles are and what classes comprise those roles. In GW2 it's just a mess of everyone being a little bit of everything and it's boring IMO. When people like you try to make the argument that GW2 is just too sophisticated or complex for the average viewer or player it's just a lame form of elitism.

    I participated in RvR and most of my time was spent running some huge distance back to the fight or dodging never ending AE circles in a huge mass of people that lacked strategy and fun. I'm sure there is more to it than that but if it's that hard to find maybe it's not worth looking for.
  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,052
    GW2's combat gives me a headache.
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • cerulean2012cerulean2012 Member UncommonPosts: 492
    So they are still wanting to do esports.  They said they were going to do that when the launched.  Frankly I think they waited to long and they have never been known at being very good at balancing the classes so I think they will have a lot of problems if they do go into it.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Rusque said:
    YashaX said:
    I think from a pvp perspective, which is what this thread is about, you really don't understand the game. There are actually clear roles, but these are formed around "builds" not classes. And the interaction and synergy between classes, abilities, and builds is far greater than in WoW, and possibly in any other mmo.

    It terms of combat mechanics, including class synergy and the like, GW2 has moved far, far beyond the simplistic ideas in games like WOW and Rift. That in a way is also its weakness, because the complexity and depth of the system can be hard to understand for the average viewer or new player.
    Everytime I see someone say stuff like this my brain says, "Yeah I think they're right, I mean there was all this interesting interaction between skills, maybe I should check it out again!" So I go back for some sPvP and it's fun for a week or two before I just throw my hands up and say, NVM I was wrong.

    I don't think GW2 pvp is particularly complex, what it is, is fast. Skills comes off cooldown fast, combos fields are fast, and certain skill usage is kind of hidden and when it's used it's too fast to really notice. That's why it's hard for a viewer to understand.

    Everything happens in terms of seconds, I have an 80 thief and 80 guardian (obv I haven't picked up the xpac), so a while back Sword MH / Pistol OH was one of the goto equips for thief PvP, the sword's 3rd hit inflicts a blind so of course you turn off auto-attack and queue up 2 main attacks and save the third. A viewer can barely tell you're holding back your third strike and even less that you've just used it to blind a warrior who's trying to go HAM on a support, right before your trigger through a fire field combo.

    By the time anything registers, a million other things have already happened. This is not great for spectating, and while it sounds like it could be complex a lot of it is also happenstance of the game. Because skills refresh so quickly, it's more effective to just use them than it is to wait to create combos or to hold key abilities until you need them. If you actually hold on to that 3rd sword attack (tactical strike), you've likely lost a couple cripples and a couple other blinds that you could have applied by default by auto-attacking. That's the real issue I have with GW2 combat, it's too fast to truly employ strategy or tactics - it feels like it devolves into button mashing even when it isn't. It feels that way because skills are constantly available.

    If you look at MOBA's you notice that skills are usually costly in terms of resource to use and generally have longer cooldowns. So when fights happens, you and the announcers can clearly  X > Y > Z happening. In GW2 everything just blurs together and happens crazy fast. A 5 second CD in GW2 feels like an eternity, utility skills which have much longer cooldowns are like waiting for a solar eclipse.

    That being said, I do think GW2 has all the pieces to make a great eSport, but it needs to slow combat down by 100% (as in double the CD and duration of everything).
    I think we are basically saying the same thing. You are putting it down to primarily speed, and maybe at low skill levels of pvp it is better to just spam everything. If you want to be effective against half-decent opponents though, you need to know what their build can do, time and bait defenses, and then stack burst/cc. Like you mention even auto attacking can involve skill since some AA chain to produce different effects. 

    And I totally agree with you in terms of some mobas that I have played, usually in mobas it is more obvious what is happening and what combos an enemy is likely to land.
    ....
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    edited December 2015

    EQBallzz said:
    YashaX said:
    EQBallzz said:
    filmoret said:
    eye_m said:
    YashaX said:
     

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.

     I'm betting that he talked to a guy once that knew somebody that read a review by a guy that got to try the beta at E3.


    He probably logged in when f2p then saw he could move and had a hotbar.  Threw up his hands screaming wow clone and went back to wow.
    Nice baseless speculation and generalization there. Also, nice attempt at a typical "WoW dig". I played WoW long ago from launch to Burning Crusade and it was a good game at the time but I don't see what that has to do with anything except maybe that WoW is a superior MMO in every way except for graphics.

    Actually, I bought GW2 at launch and leveled up two characters and partially leveled up a couple others (I enjoyed the leveling process and environments). There were aspects of the game I really enjoyed and I thought the game looked great and had a great artistic style. I was also interested in how they were going to execute on the idea of doing away with the holy trinity. I was also wondering how the "cosmetic only" upgrade system would work for progression to keep PvP "fair" (based on what I experienced this doesn't work and is boring - I'll take a gear treadmill over that anyday). I was actually looking forward to GW2 prior to launch and in some ways it delivered but in other more important ways it fell way short.

    Based on what I saw it only made me realize that doing away with the holy trinity is a bad idea unless it's replaced with something revolutionary and GW2 is nothing like that. Roles and class interdependance is what creates dynamic and emergent gameplay and GW2 classes are a homogenous, boring mess. Every class has basically the same abilities but just different weapons and animations. Every class has some form of self heal and utility and dps. Grouping (including PvP) was unorganized, zergy and consisted of constant AE circle dodging. Not fun.

    In fact, the first dungeon in the game is what mostly turned me off to the game. It was so unfun and painful and so lacking in rewards that it made me realize my time in GW2 was a waste of time. Why would I want to zerg my way through a painful dungeon where every person in the group is playing their own little personal survival game with little inter-group dependance and for rewards that would not even improve my character except mostly in the form of a costume (not to mention the repair costs)? I know some may enjoy this but IMO it's shallow and boring.

    The irony of it all was that even in a system that was meant to do away with roles the people forming groups still attempted to build groups around certain classes (paladin for example) in such a way to maximize survival so it didn't remove roles at all..it just made them weak and unfun. I haven't played the game in a long time (quit long before it went F2P) so I can't speak to the current state of the game but that is the impression it left me with and unless they added dedicated roles and actual itemization I doubt much has changed.
    I think from a pvp perspective, which is what this thread is about, you really don't understand the game. There are actually clear roles, but these are formed around "builds" not classes. And the interaction and synergy between classes, abilities, and builds is far greater than in WoW, and possibly in any other mmo.

    It terms of combat mechanics, including class synergy and the like, GW2 has moved far, far beyond the simplistic ideas in games like WOW and Rift. That in a way is also its weakness, because the complexity and depth of the system can be hard to understand for the average viewer or new player.

    I won't claim to be an expert on GW2 or the PvP aspect but that's mostly because the game bored me to death and made me quit way before that could happen. The fact that you are trying to say that the game *does* have clear roles is an indication of how the removal of the trinity system has failed. The whole point of doing away with the holy trinity was to remove defined roles so groups weren't beholden to tanks or healers and groups could be formed easily with *any* classes. The fact that people still try to cobble together roles based on builds instead of classes (builds that are reliant on classes in some cases) is just more proof that this system is a failure.

    The holy trinity has it's drawbacks but at least in that system you know what the roles are and what classes comprise those roles. In GW2 it's just a mess of everyone being a little bit of everything and it's boring IMO. When people like you try to make the argument that GW2 is just too sophisticated or complex for the average viewer or player it's just a lame form of elitism.

    I participated in RvR and most of my time was spent running some huge distance back to the fight or dodging never ending AE circles in a huge mass of people that lacked strategy and fun. I'm sure there is more to it than that but if it's that hard to find maybe it's not worth looking for.
    So now you are back to talking about RvR and pve? A minute ago you insisted that you understood what part of the game esports was aimed at.

    Seriously, you are just coming across as someone who doesn't know anything about spvp and who is salty for some weird reason.

    I even went to the trouble of trying to explain the system nicely to you and you respond with  LoLing my post and calling me an elitist.
    ....
  • EQBallzzEQBallzz Member UncommonPosts: 229
    YashaX said:

    EQBallzz said:
    YashaX said:
    EQBallzz said:
    filmoret said:
    eye_m said:
    YashaX said:
     

    As for whether the combat is interesting- your description doesn't seem to fit the game you are talking about. There are no mmos that have as deep and well thought out combat system as GW2.

     I'm betting that he talked to a guy once that knew somebody that read a review by a guy that got to try the beta at E3.


    He probably logged in when f2p then saw he could move and had a hotbar.  Threw up his hands screaming wow clone and went back to wow.
    Nice baseless speculation and generalization there. Also, nice attempt at a typical "WoW dig". I played WoW long ago from launch to Burning Crusade and it was a good game at the time but I don't see what that has to do with anything except maybe that WoW is a superior MMO in every way except for graphics.

    Actually, I bought GW2 at launch and leveled up two characters and partially leveled up a couple others (I enjoyed the leveling process and environments). There were aspects of the game I really enjoyed and I thought the game looked great and had a great artistic style. I was also interested in how they were going to execute on the idea of doing away with the holy trinity. I was also wondering how the "cosmetic only" upgrade system would work for progression to keep PvP "fair" (based on what I experienced this doesn't work and is boring - I'll take a gear treadmill over that anyday). I was actually looking forward to GW2 prior to launch and in some ways it delivered but in other more important ways it fell way short.

    Based on what I saw it only made me realize that doing away with the holy trinity is a bad idea unless it's replaced with something revolutionary and GW2 is nothing like that. Roles and class interdependance is what creates dynamic and emergent gameplay and GW2 classes are a homogenous, boring mess. Every class has basically the same abilities but just different weapons and animations. Every class has some form of self heal and utility and dps. Grouping (including PvP) was unorganized, zergy and consisted of constant AE circle dodging. Not fun.

    In fact, the first dungeon in the game is what mostly turned me off to the game. It was so unfun and painful and so lacking in rewards that it made me realize my time in GW2 was a waste of time. Why would I want to zerg my way through a painful dungeon where every person in the group is playing their own little personal survival game with little inter-group dependance and for rewards that would not even improve my character except mostly in the form of a costume (not to mention the repair costs)? I know some may enjoy this but IMO it's shallow and boring.

    The irony of it all was that even in a system that was meant to do away with roles the people forming groups still attempted to build groups around certain classes (paladin for example) in such a way to maximize survival so it didn't remove roles at all..it just made them weak and unfun. I haven't played the game in a long time (quit long before it went F2P) so I can't speak to the current state of the game but that is the impression it left me with and unless they added dedicated roles and actual itemization I doubt much has changed.
    I think from a pvp perspective, which is what this thread is about, you really don't understand the game. There are actually clear roles, but these are formed around "builds" not classes. And the interaction and synergy between classes, abilities, and builds is far greater than in WoW, and possibly in any other mmo.

    It terms of combat mechanics, including class synergy and the like, GW2 has moved far, far beyond the simplistic ideas in games like WOW and Rift. That in a way is also its weakness, because the complexity and depth of the system can be hard to understand for the average viewer or new player.

    I won't claim to be an expert on GW2 or the PvP aspect but that's mostly because the game bored me to death and made me quit way before that could happen. The fact that you are trying to say that the game *does* have clear roles is an indication of how the removal of the trinity system has failed. The whole point of doing away with the holy trinity was to remove defined roles so groups weren't beholden to tanks or healers and groups could be formed easily with *any* classes. The fact that people still try to cobble together roles based on builds instead of classes (builds that are reliant on classes in some cases) is just more proof that this system is a failure.

    The holy trinity has it's drawbacks but at least in that system you know what the roles are and what classes comprise those roles. In GW2 it's just a mess of everyone being a little bit of everything and it's boring IMO. When people like you try to make the argument that GW2 is just too sophisticated or complex for the average viewer or player it's just a lame form of elitism.

    I participated in RvR and most of my time was spent running some huge distance back to the fight or dodging never ending AE circles in a huge mass of people that lacked strategy and fun. I'm sure there is more to it than that but if it's that hard to find maybe it's not worth looking for.
    So now you are back to talking about RvR and pve? A minute ago you insisted that you understood what part of the game esports was aimed at.

    Seriously, you are just coming across as someone who doesn't know anything about spvp and who is salty for some weird reason.

    I even went to the trouble of trying to explain the system nicely to you and you respond with  LoLing my post and calling me an elitist.
    Yeah, I never said I was some expert on spvp ( I really don't care). I even mentioned that but it's irrelevant. My only point was that GW2 is boring to play and therefor would be boring to watch. If there is some audience out there that actually wants to watch that mess that would surprise me.

    The things I mention are relevant to pvp and pve so it really doesn't matter. I'm more interested in pve myself and I don't watch esports (I mentioned this as well) so it really doesn't matter. I just feel that the system of no trinity and little/no itemization they put in place to make pvp "fair" and "equal" also made the game homogeneous and boring.

    I didn't mean to call you an elitist but your comment came off that way to me.
Sign In or Register to comment.