I am neither a fan of boxing nor an opponent. To me it's harmless. I don't do it, but I probably would if I was able. I would enjoy seeing a video of you operating 40 boxes.
I agree with the opposition to botting. Botting is cheating that as you illustrate, can hurt everyone.
If you are right, and allowing one opens a door for the other that cannot be closed, than for what little it is worth Pantheon has my blessing to ban both. That seems strange to me, though. They ought to be able to find a solution. Such as, for once hire enough CSRs that they can react quickly to complaints, investigate, and ban people who are botting.
I reject Sinist's argument that boxing hurts the community, as that is pure nonsense.
And of course I pay little attention to anything Sinist says because he is rude and deals only in self-absorbed absolutes.
Lets be honest, you defy my position because you are being emotional, not because you have a valid premise. That is, I upset you by being short with you and so now you are letting your emotions drive your thinking.
If my position is pure nonsense, you should be able to easily defeat it with logical argument. That is, you identify the fault in my premise and then show how it invalidates my position.
You however have failed to establish a valid premise. That is, you think it does not harm the community, but you offer no support as to why, not make any proper logical rebuttal as to why.
At each position of those claiming otherwise, I have provided logical rebuttal to their arguments. They however keep making claims, and we are to accept their position as valid simply because they say so.
The fact is, as Rallyd pointed out, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between boxing and botting, "nearly", not impossible.
Thing is, in order to be able to tell, you have to have more control over the clients machine which is a very touchy subject with gamer as nobody wants to allow some game company authority over their own PC as to due such means you have to trust that company to not be negligent or abusive of those powers.
There are many draconian ways to insure that botting is extremely unlikely to happen but not a single person here will agree to them. Not only that, but you are talking about a lot of expense and effort in security systems to detect and deal with it. A game designer isn't skilled enough to know how to handle such, even a game programmer isn't skilled enough. So, you need a security expert to come in, design the software that can identify such behavior and protect against it. Now, risk analysis for a game company with such attention and expense will usually result in the position of "it isn't worth the cost".
So, compare that expense and effort with simply attempting to blanket ban any such activity at all. Sure, you will still have problems, but it is much easier to draw a clear line than it is to have a multi-facted conditional one. So, allowing boxing while ignoring botting is a pointless endeavor and any company who says they allow one, but not the other are fooling themselves and you into the idea that they can stop it.
But hey, you stay mad at me, keep on trucking that emotional stand point, It always does well to drive your reasoning on basic emotional grounds!
Dual boxing is a player using 2 computers, each of which has an account and a character. Then, in game the player can group them and control both characters (if he or she has the dexterity).
Botting is using a computer program to cause characters to function automatically, including some types of play where the player himself is not there.
I am fairly certain I have spoken only about dual boxing, since it was my understanding that was the original topic.
But I have thought all along it was odd that anyone would feel so strongly about dual boxing.
The problem is Amanthe that the line between dual boxing and botting is so incredibly thin, that a developer cannot tell the difference between the two. This has been proved time and time again as MMO after MMO tries to stop chinese botters and epicly fails EVERY SINGLE TIME because they can't 100% prove that they were really botting and not boxing, so they have to return the account when its petitioned for.
Sinist went off on a little bit of a crazy train the last few posts here, but it's because he's a zealot for no boxing, and so am I. If you do not stop boxing/botting, and i guarantee you have to stop boxing to stop botting, then we will end up with the same situations that the recent EQ progression server was in, and absolute mess of boxing at every single camp in the game, entire 40 man raids boxing down raid targets all day every day.
Hell if boxing is allowed, i guarantee you i will run 40 accounts and camp them at contested targets and kill them immediately upon spawn and there's nothing you can do about it but leave.
You can afford to pay for 40 subs?
Wait, is this title f2p? If so I think I see the problem.
Also CCP permits boxing, but not botting and they do appear to be able to discern correctly between the two. (unlike many in this thread who continue to incorrectly link the two.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Also CCP permits boxing, but not botting and they do appear to be able to discern correctly between the two. (unlike many in this thread who continue to incorrectly link the two.)
Really? So there is no botting in Eve Online? It doesn't happen, people don't do it, nope doesn't exist right?
Oh, and since we are so stupid here and you are so informed, maybe you can very clearly (you know, because you understand and all), explain to us EXACTLY what the difference between boxing and botting is? I mean, nothing says "I know my stuff" than someone willing to commit to a definition right?
I reject Sinist's argument that boxing hurts the community, as that is pure nonsense.
And of course I pay little attention to anything Sinist says because he is rude and deals only in self-absorbed absolutes.
I can't believe people still going on about this as if the last 15 years of MMOs didn't happen.
There is no way to logically come to the conclusion that boxing doesn't hurt the community aspect of a game in some way. A community is a collection of people working towards a common cause. Boxing allows you to avoid that interaction, at least to some degree. There is simply no arguing this point, as its a fact, not to be confused with an opinion.
Short of installing spyware on your PC to watch what programs you're running while playing their game, VR has very few options of stopping botters, mostly because I highly doubt they are willing to spend the money it would take to stop it, even AAA gaming companies are unwilling.
That being said, allowing boxing is a direct gateway to botting, anyone who has boxed a day in their life knows that the moment you find you can't do something as quickly as you'd like to, you will find a program to do it faster, and there are so many out there that are usable by amateurs. Even simple keyboard scripts can do it.
I guarantee if you allow boxing you will have botters, and while a CSR representative may be able to tell the difference, there is no way when the petition comes through to get the account back after a ban/suspension that they can possibly uphold it if the rules say boxing is legal because they can provide no proof that the person was botting and not boxing. Archeage had this exact problem and they ended up just giving up.
When a person boxes using a bot, its obvious. Synchronized abilities, constantly using autofollow to travel or move, slow response to the unexpected while still using the normal scripted abilities. I can spot it in a matter of minutes, especially if I'm familiar with the bot and its capabilities. That is all the grounds you need to permanently ban someone. Its more work, but it doesn't need to be second guessed like a false positive on hacks.
I don't doubt for a second that if boxing is legal, botting will be a thing. That just isn't the reason to stop boxing. The reason to stop boxing is because even when people aren't botting, it has and will continue to have a negative impact on massively multiplayer games.
Also CCP permits boxing, but not botting and they do appear to be able to discern correctly between the two. (unlike many in this thread who continue to incorrectly link the two.)
Really? So there is no botting in Eve Online? It doesn't happen, people don't do it, nope doesn't exist right?
Oh, and since we are so stupid here and you are so informed, maybe you can very clearly (you know, because you understand and all), explain to us EXACTLY what the difference between boxing and botting is? I mean, nothing says "I know my stuff" than someone willing to commit to a definition right?
We will be waiting.
Kyleran didn't say anything of the sort. You did. Look, there is a money advantage to allowing multiboxing and even botting that bitching and moaning can't overcome.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Also CCP permits boxing, but not botting and they do appear to be able to discern correctly between the two. (unlike many in this thread who continue to incorrectly link the two.)
Really? So there is no botting in Eve Online? It doesn't happen, people don't do it, nope doesn't exist right?
Oh, and since we are so stupid here and you are so informed, maybe you can very clearly (you know, because you understand and all), explain to us EXACTLY what the difference between boxing and botting is? I mean, nothing says "I know my stuff" than someone willing to commit to a definition right?
We will be waiting.
Kyleran didn't say anything of the sort. You did. Look, there is a money advantage to allowing multiboxing and even botting that bitching and moaning can't overcome.
There is with RMT PTW as well, but if "money" was the main focus of the game designers design directions, they wouldn't be making pantheon, so saying it should be allowed because it means more money isn't a valid argument.
The point I was making to Kyleran is that CCP can't stop botting, and claiming they can discern between the two reliably is not true. You can layer automation with player action. I can control multiple characters without having to switch screens or have delays or give the appearance of automation. People can still bott and not haave it look like mirror actions on each character. There are levels of automation.
When a person boxes using a bot, its obvious. Synchronized abilities, constantly using autofollow to travel or move, slow response to the unexpected while still using the normal scripted abilities. I can spot it in a matter of minutes, especially if I'm familiar with the bot and its capabilities. That is all the grounds you need to permanently ban someone. Its more work, but it doesn't need to be second guessed like a false positive on hacks.
I don't doubt for a second that if boxing is legal, botting will be a thing. That just isn't the reason to stop boxing. The reason to stop boxing is because even when people aren't botting, it has and will continue to have a negative impact on massively multiplayer games.
Not always so Dullahan. Sure, if you are running a mirror function which has every character do the same thing based on a single button push, yep.. it is obvious. Though you can still automate responses with scripting conditions and reactions that are a combination of player control and scripts.
Besides, how are you going to tell past that? Boxers use follow as well and look like they are one person as people run around. I can design a group that works from a single keyboard that would be very difficult to tell between a botter and an efficient boxer.
Is a healing script botting? What is the difference between a full script and a player controlled macro and how are you going to identify between the two? How are you going to tell the difference between a very skilled player who can handle multiple machines (remember 18 separate machines were controlled by a single guy in EQ) and someone who has some macro assisted keys bound to their keyboard?
The fact is, the line gets very muddy when you think one can be allowed and the other disallowed. CCP has already admitted that they can't tell the difference between a carefully designed bot and an obsessive player. In the end, a person who is running a full group or raid doesn't need to fully automate, they can just use clever scripting in conjunction with player control that will make the boxing extremely easy which is the entire point, not to make self automated botts that farm the game unassisted. In the end, all the player needs to accomplish is to reasonably be able to control a number of accounts to kill a group mob or a raid one and scripted automated functions can achieve that without appearing like someone is afk.
I have six accounts, a macro/scripting keyboard/mouse, VMware running 6 instances of an OS and the game with a program that relays my keyboard/mouse commands via the network to each instance of the game.
With this I setup each characters control on my single keyboard and I use various macros/scripts to aid in various aspects of play. For instance, all characters have an automated targeting function to do various actions. I can hit a single key and it will have each character target my main character and follow/assist, etc..., but because I am clever, I input a random reasonable delay between that single execution of some commands which gives the appearance of me taking time to issue the command to each character.
I also have scripts and macros for various class functions and abilities. For instance, I can easily hit a single key and my cleric will target the tank, and cast a given heal I have identified with a key configuration. It would be no different than me switching to that character, targeting the tank and hitting a heal.
I do this with numerous characters and classes in my group, assigning keys on my single keyboard various actions to control each character. In some cases, I might have a command sent to all of them, in other cases I might just be doing basic commands to a given character.
Now there are many ways to see through my characters eyes, for instance, I might have multiple monitors for each character (not as efficient) or I might have multiple scaled views of each OS I am running the game on placed on a single monitor.
The point is, I can control all of my characters through a single keyboard and with basic mechanics and simple scripting/macro behaviors. I don't need fancy software, I don't need elaborate gimmicks, I can do it all myself and the only thing that the company will know is that I am using a keyboard and mouse.
Am I botting? Or am I boxing? Why are they different, what draws the line between accepted automation and unaccepted? How do you tell the difference without guessing or making assumptions?
Bots run all night by themselves farming crafting nodes, running the same path and doing the exact same things over and over again (consider it a loop that will not end until the player wakes up and changes the loop) Simply watch a bot run the exact same route (literally) over and over again....have you never actually seen a bot? They are hilarious to watch....and even better to f**k with because you guessed it, no one controls them, they are pre-programmed)
Boxers control what they are doing and only play as long as they can stay awake or have interest in playing. They are controlled by the player.
Botting i disagree with, the player is earning nothing, the bot is doing all the work while they can sleep or wander away from the keyboard....boxers cannot wander away from their keyboard...or they simply die.
Allot of botting issues can be fixed by not having the exact same spawn points for resources or creatures. Change spawnpoints to random and botters can no longer build bot scripts because target locations are now unknown. I know camps are hard to change locations, as for a botter killing shit in a camp....if you notice a pattern and you get no answer back from bots train em and take the camp....cause it aint the player working for his loot, its the bots. Yes i have done this to bots before...call me an ass but i dislike bots, boxers i dont mind cause they are actually working for their shit.
Botting and boxing is not the same thing...open your eyes.
Bots run all night by themselves farming crafting nodes, running the same path and doing the exact same things over and over again (consider it a loop that will not end until the player wakes up and changes the loop) Simply watch a bot run the exact same route (literally) over and over again....have you never actually seen a bot? They are hilarious to watch....and even better to f**k with because you guessed it, no one controls them, they are pre-programmed)
Boxers control what they are doing and only play as long as they can stay awake or have interest in playing. They are controlled by the player.
Botting i disagree with, the player is earning nothing, the bot is doing all the work while they can sleep or wander away from the keyboard....boxers cannot wander away from their keyboard...or they simply die.
Allot of botting issues can be fixed by not having the exact same spawn points for resources or creatures. Change spawnpoints to random and botters can no longer build bot scripts because target locations are now unknown. I know camps are hard to change locations, as for a botter killing shit in a camp....if you notice a pattern and you get no answer back from bots train em and take the camp....cause it aint the player working for his loot, its the bots. Yes i have done this to bots before...call me an ass but i dislike bots, boxers i dont mind cause they are actually working for their shit.
Botting and boxing is not the same thing...open your eyes.
Excellent, now we are getting to the meat and potatoes of the discussion.
So, in your position you have no problems with fully automated boxing as long as there is a player behind the curtain at all times they are playing? So, it isn't automation that is your objection, it is the player being present in such.
As I explained in my example, a player can fully automate as much as they desire the functions of their play. They could essentially reduce a raid or parties play down to a very limited number of buttons and as long as they are present, you are ok with a single person accomplishing such?
You have defined botting as simply a person not being present. By the way, even CCP disagrees with you as their objections are not to someone being present or not, but that of people automating through scripting.
The thing is, there is really no real difference in the point we are making in this discussion. You see, nobody here is arguing over someone being present or not, they are arguing over the issue of a single person being able to control multiple characters through scripting and automation to the point of completely avoiding the need to play a game socially.
You see, in a game that is group dependent, boxing and botting might as well be the same thing because they achieve the same negative results, which is allowing a single person to circumvent the games design for group play. If the goal was to encourage soloing (which is what automated party play controlled by a single person is), they would make the game a solo game don't you think? Or did you think this was all some sort of ruse to try and profit off idiots so they could make bank on people buying tons of boxing accounts? What do you say Brad? Is that what you guys are doing? Hmm?
So in the context of this discussion, it really doesn't matter how you define it, that is an evasion of the point, which is that it does harm games such as this which are designed around the idea of socially required play.
Bots run all night by themselves farming crafting nodes, running the same path and doing the exact same things over and over again (consider it a loop that will not end until the player wakes up and changes the loop) Simply watch a bot run the exact same route (literally) over and over again....have you never actually seen a bot? They are hilarious to watch....and even better to f**k with because you guessed it, no one controls them, they are pre-programmed)
Boxers control what they are doing and only play as long as they can stay awake or have interest in playing. They are controlled by the player.
Botting i disagree with, the player is earning nothing, the bot is doing all the work while they can sleep or wander away from the keyboard....boxers cannot wander away from their keyboard...or they simply die.
Allot of botting issues can be fixed by not having the exact same spawn points for resources or creatures. Change spawnpoints to random and botters can no longer build bot scripts because target locations are now unknown. I know camps are hard to change locations, as for a botter killing shit in a camp....if you notice a pattern and you get no answer back from bots train em and take the camp....cause it aint the player working for his loot, its the bots. Yes i have done this to bots before...call me an ass but i dislike bots, boxers i dont mind cause they are actually working for their shit.
Botting and boxing is not the same thing...open your eyes.
The problem with this statement is that you automatically assume that bots are what you have seen in a previous game, they stand there and farm the same set of mobs over and over. This is an incredibly rudimentary bot that is used because thats what games have done, and thats all they needed to do.
There are bots out there that ANYONE can use that can literally play the game better than you can, there are bots that can run GR 60+ in Diablo 3. This is the most randomized world game there is, so randomizing stuff does not stop bots, packet sniffing and injection is incredibly easy, even with Blizzard's level of AAA protection.
I think we aren't quite explaining this right for you guys to understand, so let me break it down a bit. We aren't saying boxing and botting are identical from the person doing it's perspective. We are saying boxing and botting are nearly identical from the DEVELOPER's perspective trying to identify whether someone is boxing or botting. Put yourself in their shoes, all they have at their disposal is when you're doing actions, how often you're doing actions, and a visual representation of what your characters are doing.
When this is the case, and they have no inside information from your setup, it is VEEEEEEERY hard if not impossible to concretely prove that you are botting and not boxing. This is what i'm talking about with Archeage and why they had such issues, players claimed they were boxing not botting and constantly got their accounts back because they simply can't PROVE that they were botting, there is just no way without spyware being installed on clients to know.
If boxing is legal, so to will botting be because there is simply no way to know from a DEVELOPER perspective. We as players might see it and make the assumption, but developers can't live by those same rules, they have EULA's and license agreements to follow. They are in a sense handcuffed by their own statements that boxing is ok.
If boxing is legal, so to will botting be because there is simply no way to know from a DEVELOPER perspective. We as players might see it and make the assumption, but developers can't live by those same rules, they have EULA's and license agreements to follow. They are in a sense handcuffed by their own statements that boxing is ok.
Yep, I could even setup botting, then have any messages sent to my character in game that would forward them to me through an IM program to which I could then respond to anyone or a GM who questioned me at the time from a phone or any other place I want.
I could send a command back to my machine at home telling my bot to stop, then through my text, answer any questions from my bott that the GM might ask, hence making it appear as if I am setting at my computer, "playing" my NPC.
As you pointed out. They can't tell the difference even if they try (ie build a better mouse trap and I will build a better mouse).
I think we aren't quite explaining this right for you guys to understand, so let me break it down a bit. We aren't saying boxing and botting are identical from the person doing it's perspective. We are saying boxing and botting are nearly identical from the DEVELOPER's perspective trying to identify whether someone is boxing or botting. Put yourself in their shoes, all they have at their disposal is when you're doing actions, how often you're doing actions, and a visual representation of what your characters are doing.
I don't agree with that. If that's the case a developer wouldn't know whether a solo player is botting or not.
A developer should be able to tell the difference between a character being controlled by a human than scripted. I can and a lot of other gamers can when they see it.
I could also tell a boxer controlling all the characters individually and them botting them.
I think we aren't quite explaining this right for you guys to understand, so let me break it down a bit. We aren't saying boxing and botting are identical from the person doing it's perspective. We are saying boxing and botting are nearly identical from the DEVELOPER's perspective trying to identify whether someone is boxing or botting. Put yourself in their shoes, all they have at their disposal is when you're doing actions, how often you're doing actions, and a visual representation of what your characters are doing.
I don't agree with that. If that's the case a developer wouldn't know whether a solo player is botting or not.
A developer should be able to tell the difference between a character being controlled by a human than scripted. I can and a lot of other gamers can when they see it.
I could also tell a boxer controlling all the characters individually and them botting them.
Can you prove it though?
If so, then I think you missed your calling. You should easily be able to design that software or teach that method of evidence establishment to them for a bank roll of money. You will have studios knocking on your door 24/7 to get you to come consult them.
I think we aren't quite explaining this right for you guys to understand, so let me break it down a bit. We aren't saying boxing and botting are identical from the person doing it's perspective. We are saying boxing and botting are nearly identical from the DEVELOPER's perspective trying to identify whether someone is boxing or botting. Put yourself in their shoes, all they have at their disposal is when you're doing actions, how often you're doing actions, and a visual representation of what your characters are doing.
I don't agree with that. If that's the case a developer wouldn't know whether a solo player is botting or not.
A developer should be able to tell the difference between a character being controlled by a human than scripted. I can and a lot of other gamers can when they see it.
I could also tell a boxer controlling all the characters individually and them botting them.
Can you prove it though?
The number of times devs ban solo players for botting is high so they must have proof/evidence of what bot activity looks like. But for some unusual reason they can't prove it when boxers are doing it? I'm sorry they will.
The reason it's hard for developers to spot boxers that aren't botting as it will look like a group of actual gamers doing the content.
I think we aren't quite explaining this right for you guys to understand, so let me break it down a bit. We aren't saying boxing and botting are identical from the person doing it's perspective. We are saying boxing and botting are nearly identical from the DEVELOPER's perspective trying to identify whether someone is boxing or botting. Put yourself in their shoes, all they have at their disposal is when you're doing actions, how often you're doing actions, and a visual representation of what your characters are doing.
I don't agree with that. If that's the case a developer wouldn't know whether a solo player is botting or not.
A developer should be able to tell the difference between a character being controlled by a human than scripted. I can and a lot of other gamers can when they see it.
I could also tell a boxer controlling all the characters individually and them botting them.
Can you prove it though?
The number of times devs ban solo players for botting is high so they must have proof/evidence of what bot activity looks like. But for some unusual reason they can't prove it when boxers are doing it? I'm sorry they will.
The reason it's hard for developers to spot boxers that aren't botting as it will look like a group of actual gamers doing the content.
That isn't proof, that is assumptive anecdotal reasoning. Fact is, you don't really know.
By the way, I can make a group of characters look and act like a player is controlling them. /shrug
That isn't proof, that is assumptive anecdotal reasoning. Fact is, you don't really know.
By the way, I can make a group of characters look and act like a player is controlling them. /shrug
Ok, I don't really know if developers are just banning people at whim on hear say that they're botting. The proof is they do it.
If you aren't botting you'd normally contact the developer and tell them you weren't.
However, no one here has explained how developers can't tell the difference between someone botting or not like @Rallyd said in what I quoted. How can they not know when they've been banning botters since before MMO's were a thing? I find it hard to believe that they just ban gamers with no proof.
That isn't proof, that is assumptive anecdotal reasoning. Fact is, you don't really know.
By the way, I can make a group of characters look and act like a player is controlling them. /shrug
Ok, I don't really know if developers are just banning people at whim on hear say that they're botting. The proof is they do it.
If you aren't botting you'd normally contact the developer and tell them you weren't.
However, no one here has explained how developers can't tell the difference between someone botting or not like @Rallyd said in what I quoted. How can they not know when they've been banning botters since before MMO's were a thing? I find it hard to believe that they just ban gamers with no proof.
People get banned for botting, that however does not mean that they have botting under control. My point was that you can't take that as evidence that they know how to tell the difference always. It just means some people were caught botting (and they might have been real idiots doing extremely obvious things).
Some bots have been made to give automated responses when you send them a tell. So, the fact that they respond doesn't mean they are a person. Also, as I explained with my phone example, it could still be a bott with a contingency built in to contact the person who owns the bott so they can respond. So again, you can't tell.
Bot players do contact customer service, and then claim they weren't botting, which is why a lot of them get their accounts back. The company can not prove they were botting, so if a person comes back and contests them with some bullshit story, they usually just warn them and give the account back. Most companies will take the side of caution and risk allowing a botter back in the game, then risk banning a real player.
People get banned for botting, that however does not mean that they have botting under control. My point was that you can't take that as evidence that they know how to tell the difference always. It just means some people were caught botting (and they might have been real idiots doing extremely obvious things).
Some bots have been made to give automated responses when you send them a tell. So, the fact that they respond doesn't mean they are a person. Also, as I explained with my phone example, it could still be a bott with a contingency built in to contact the person who owns the bott so they can respond. So again, you can't tell.
Bot players do contact customer service, and then claim they weren't botting, which is why a lot of them get their accounts back. The company can not prove they were botting, so if a person comes back and contests them with some bullshit story, they usually just warn them and give the account back. Most companies will take the side of caution and risk allowing a botter back in the game, then risk banning a real player.
Agreed.
The issue I'm having is that some posters are claiming multi-boxing is in league with botting without explaining why. All they're proving is a total lack of knowledge about multi-boxing.
You can multi-box without botting. Like you can solo with out botting, or you can group up without botting.
I'll leave this thread with this (as I'm not likely to play this game) if botting is so unstoppable, how can a developer stop people from multiboxing in the first place.?
My guess is they could not stop someone from running a separate account on different computer and joining them all together with a single set of controls.
In fact back in 2003 a guy did that on Mordred and ran 9 accounts on 9 computers all running as an Animist and with single controller could drop 20 or more turrets simultaneously.
He really was doing a primative form of botting, but how would you stop him?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People get banned for botting, that however does not mean that they have botting under control. My point was that you can't take that as evidence that they know how to tell the difference always. It just means some people were caught botting (and they might have been real idiots doing extremely obvious things).
Some bots have been made to give automated responses when you send them a tell. So, the fact that they respond doesn't mean they are a person. Also, as I explained with my phone example, it could still be a bott with a contingency built in to contact the person who owns the bott so they can respond. So again, you can't tell.
Bot players do contact customer service, and then claim they weren't botting, which is why a lot of them get their accounts back. The company can not prove they were botting, so if a person comes back and contests them with some bullshit story, they usually just warn them and give the account back. Most companies will take the side of caution and risk allowing a botter back in the game, then risk banning a real player.
Agreed.
The issue I'm having is that some posters are claiming multi-boxing is in league with botting without explaining why. All they're proving is a total lack of knowledge about multi-boxing.
You can multi-box without botting. Like you can solo with out botting, or you can group up without botting.
The point is that by allowing one, you make is nearly impossible to differentiate between them, but if you ban it entirely, it is much easier to prove someone is boxing than it is to prove they are botting due to the many examples given.
That aside, consider the main point here that boxing is also bad for a group focused game anyway because it allows a player to solo the game with multiple characters.
Why make a group dependent game that centralizes itself around the concept of social reliance and dependency,to build classes on that concept and to state you are not going to be catering to solo play, that it is not the goal and then turn around and think that a person soloing a group is inline with that idea?
Multi-boxing vs botting is really just a red herring avoiding the real issue is that boxing is counter to the entire concept of a game like this.
You can not make a legitimate argument that a single person playing multiple characters in their own group, competing against others for content in this focus of a game is beneficial. It is a failed argument right out of the gate.
You can not make a legitimate argument that a single person playing multiple characters in their own group, competing against others for content in this focus of a game is beneficial. It is a failed argument right out of the gate.
But there is no evidence to stay it's detrimental to MMO communities. If you have evidence then present it.
There aren't enough boxers to actually think it's a problem in the first place.
There were great communities in games which had/have multi-boxing comunities (SWG, EQ, LOTRO etc.) I could see it effecting that community.
Then there's the multi-boxers who do it just to level up so they've got multiple toons to play with during endgame PvP/Raids where they do group up.
I'll leave this thread with this (as I'm not likely to play this game) if botting is so unstoppable, how can a developer stop people from multiboxing in the first place.?
My guess is they could not stop someone from running a separate account on different computer and joining them all together with a single set of controls.
In fact back in 2003 a guy did that on Mordred and ran 9 accounts on 9 computers all running as an Animist and with single controller could drop 20 or more turrets simultaneously.
He really was doing a primative form of botting, but how would you stop him?
Good question, it is still difficult, but... not as difficult as distinguishing between a boxer and someone botting. If all the tools are disallowed (ie the behavior of such), then it would be extremely difficult for all but the technically clever and adept to pull it off and as I mentioned in a previous post, that last bit of stray genius of people can be cleaned up with community reporting of behavior and occurrence.
See, I can take a video/logs of you controlling multiple accounts acting in unison and while I can't 100% say you are botting, I can with certainty show you to boxing through numerous methods via network and software tools/protocols.
Basically, boxing gives botting something to hide behind. Without boxing, there is no easy way to bott. I am not saying it is impossible, just much more difficult to do.
Comments
Lets be honest, you defy my position because you are being emotional, not because you have a valid premise. That is, I upset you by being short with you and so now you are letting your emotions drive your thinking.
If my position is pure nonsense, you should be able to easily defeat it with logical argument. That is, you identify the fault in my premise and then show how it invalidates my position.
You however have failed to establish a valid premise. That is, you think it does not harm the community, but you offer no support as to why, not make any proper logical rebuttal as to why.
At each position of those claiming otherwise, I have provided logical rebuttal to their arguments. They however keep making claims, and we are to accept their position as valid simply because they say so.
The fact is, as Rallyd pointed out, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between boxing and botting, "nearly", not impossible.
Thing is, in order to be able to tell, you have to have more control over the clients machine which is a very touchy subject with gamer as nobody wants to allow some game company authority over their own PC as to due such means you have to trust that company to not be negligent or abusive of those powers.
There are many draconian ways to insure that botting is extremely unlikely to happen but not a single person here will agree to them. Not only that, but you are talking about a lot of expense and effort in security systems to detect and deal with it. A game designer isn't skilled enough to know how to handle such, even a game programmer isn't skilled enough. So, you need a security expert to come in, design the software that can identify such behavior and protect against it. Now, risk analysis for a game company with such attention and expense will usually result in the position of "it isn't worth the cost".
So, compare that expense and effort with simply attempting to blanket ban any such activity at all. Sure, you will still have problems, but it is much easier to draw a clear line than it is to have a multi-facted conditional one. So, allowing boxing while ignoring botting is a pointless endeavor and any company who says they allow one, but not the other are fooling themselves and you into the idea that they can stop it.
But hey, you stay mad at me, keep on trucking that emotional stand point, It always does well to drive your reasoning on basic emotional grounds!
Wait, is this title f2p? If so I think I see the problem.
Also CCP permits boxing, but not botting and they do appear to be able to discern correctly between the two. (unlike many in this thread who continue to incorrectly link the two.)
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Oh, and since we are so stupid here and you are so informed, maybe you can very clearly (you know, because you understand and all), explain to us EXACTLY what the difference between boxing and botting is? I mean, nothing says "I know my stuff" than someone willing to commit to a definition right?
We will be waiting.
There is no way to logically come to the conclusion that boxing doesn't hurt the community aspect of a game in some way. A community is a collection of people working towards a common cause. Boxing allows you to avoid that interaction, at least to some degree. There is simply no arguing this point, as its a fact, not to be confused with an opinion.
That being said, allowing boxing is a direct gateway to botting, anyone who has boxed a day in their life knows that the moment you find you can't do something as quickly as you'd like to, you will find a program to do it faster, and there are so many out there that are usable by amateurs. Even simple keyboard scripts can do it.
I guarantee if you allow boxing you will have botters, and while a CSR representative may be able to tell the difference, there is no way when the petition comes through to get the account back after a ban/suspension that they can possibly uphold it if the rules say boxing is legal because they can provide no proof that the person was botting and not boxing. Archeage had this exact problem and they ended up just giving up.
I don't doubt for a second that if boxing is legal, botting will be a thing. That just isn't the reason to stop boxing. The reason to stop boxing is because even when people aren't botting, it has and will continue to have a negative impact on massively multiplayer games.
Kyleran didn't say anything of the sort. You did. Look, there is a money advantage to allowing multiboxing and even botting that bitching and moaning can't overcome.
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The point I was making to Kyleran is that CCP can't stop botting, and claiming they can discern between the two reliably is not true. You can layer automation with player action. I can control multiple characters without having to switch screens or have delays or give the appearance of automation. People can still bott and not haave it look like mirror actions on each character. There are levels of automation.
Besides, how are you going to tell past that? Boxers use follow as well and look like they are one person as people run around. I can design a group that works from a single keyboard that would be very difficult to tell between a botter and an efficient boxer.
Is a healing script botting? What is the difference between a full script and a player controlled macro and how are you going to identify between the two? How are you going to tell the difference between a very skilled player who can handle multiple machines (remember 18 separate machines were controlled by a single guy in EQ) and someone who has some macro assisted keys bound to their keyboard?
The fact is, the line gets very muddy when you think one can be allowed and the other disallowed. CCP has already admitted that they can't tell the difference between a carefully designed bot and an obsessive player. In the end, a person who is running a full group or raid doesn't need to fully automate, they can just use clever scripting in conjunction with player control that will make the boxing extremely easy which is the entire point, not to make self automated botts that farm the game unassisted. In the end, all the player needs to accomplish is to reasonably be able to control a number of accounts to kill a group mob or a raid one and scripted automated functions can achieve that without appearing like someone is afk.
I have six accounts, a macro/scripting keyboard/mouse, VMware running 6 instances of an OS and the game with a program that relays my keyboard/mouse commands via the network to each instance of the game.
With this I setup each characters control on my single keyboard and I use various macros/scripts to aid in various aspects of play. For instance, all characters have an automated targeting function to do various actions. I can hit a single key and it will have each character target my main character and follow/assist, etc..., but because I am clever, I input a random reasonable delay between that single execution of some commands which gives the appearance of me taking time to issue the command to each character.
I also have scripts and macros for various class functions and abilities. For instance, I can easily hit a single key and my cleric will target the tank, and cast a given heal I have identified with a key configuration. It would be no different than me switching to that character, targeting the tank and hitting a heal.
I do this with numerous characters and classes in my group, assigning keys on my single keyboard various actions to control each character. In some cases, I might have a command sent to all of them, in other cases I might just be doing basic commands to a given character.
Now there are many ways to see through my characters eyes, for instance, I might have multiple monitors for each character (not as efficient) or I might have multiple scaled views of each OS I am running the game on placed on a single monitor.
The point is, I can control all of my characters through a single keyboard and with basic mechanics and simple scripting/macro behaviors. I don't need fancy software, I don't need elaborate gimmicks, I can do it all myself and the only thing that the company will know is that I am using a keyboard and mouse.
Am I botting? Or am I boxing? Why are they different, what draws the line between accepted automation and unaccepted? How do you tell the difference without guessing or making assumptions?
Bots run all night by themselves farming crafting nodes, running the same path and doing the exact same things over and over again (consider it a loop that will not end until the player wakes up and changes the loop) Simply watch a bot run the exact same route (literally) over and over again....have you never actually seen a bot? They are hilarious to watch....and even better to f**k with because you guessed it, no one controls them, they are pre-programmed)
Boxers control what they are doing and only play as long as they can stay awake or have interest in playing. They are controlled by the player.
Botting i disagree with, the player is earning nothing, the bot is doing all the work while they can sleep or wander away from the keyboard....boxers cannot wander away from their keyboard...or they simply die.
Allot of botting issues can be fixed by not having the exact same spawn points for resources or creatures. Change spawnpoints to random and botters can no longer build bot scripts because target locations are now unknown. I know camps are hard to change locations, as for a botter killing shit in a camp....if you notice a pattern and you get no answer back from bots train em and take the camp....cause it aint the player working for his loot, its the bots. Yes i have done this to bots before...call me an ass but i dislike bots, boxers i dont mind cause they are actually working for their shit.
Botting and boxing is not the same thing...open your eyes.
Excellent, now we are getting to the meat and potatoes of the discussion.
So, in your position you have no problems with fully automated boxing as long as there is a player behind the curtain at all times they are playing? So, it isn't automation that is your objection, it is the player being present in such.
As I explained in my example, a player can fully automate as much as they desire the functions of their play. They could essentially reduce a raid or parties play down to a very limited number of buttons and as long as they are present, you are ok with a single person accomplishing such?
You have defined botting as simply a person not being present. By the way, even CCP disagrees with you as their objections are not to someone being present or not, but that of people automating through scripting.
The thing is, there is really no real difference in the point we are making in this discussion. You see, nobody here is arguing over someone being present or not, they are arguing over the issue of a single person being able to control multiple characters through scripting and automation to the point of completely avoiding the need to play a game socially.
You see, in a game that is group dependent, boxing and botting might as well be the same thing because they achieve the same negative results, which is allowing a single person to circumvent the games design for group play. If the goal was to encourage soloing (which is what automated party play controlled by a single person is), they would make the game a solo game don't you think? Or did you think this was all some sort of ruse to try and profit off idiots so they could make bank on people buying tons of boxing accounts? What do you say Brad? Is that what you guys are doing? Hmm?
So in the context of this discussion, it really doesn't matter how you define it, that is an evasion of the point, which is that it does harm games such as this which are designed around the idea of socially required play.
/shrug
There are bots out there that ANYONE can use that can literally play the game better than you can, there are bots that can run GR 60+ in Diablo 3. This is the most randomized world game there is, so randomizing stuff does not stop bots, packet sniffing and injection is incredibly easy, even with Blizzard's level of AAA protection.
I think we aren't quite explaining this right for you guys to understand, so let me break it down a bit. We aren't saying boxing and botting are identical from the person doing it's perspective. We are saying boxing and botting are nearly identical from the DEVELOPER's perspective trying to identify whether someone is boxing or botting. Put yourself in their shoes, all they have at their disposal is when you're doing actions, how often you're doing actions, and a visual representation of what your characters are doing.
When this is the case, and they have no inside information from your setup, it is VEEEEEEERY hard if not impossible to concretely prove that you are botting and not boxing. This is what i'm talking about with Archeage and why they had such issues, players claimed they were boxing not botting and constantly got their accounts back because they simply can't PROVE that they were botting, there is just no way without spyware being installed on clients to know.
If boxing is legal, so to will botting be because there is simply no way to know from a DEVELOPER perspective. We as players might see it and make the assumption, but developers can't live by those same rules, they have EULA's and license agreements to follow. They are in a sense handcuffed by their own statements that boxing is ok.
I could send a command back to my machine at home telling my bot to stop, then through my text, answer any questions from my bott that the GM might ask, hence making it appear as if I am setting at my computer, "playing" my NPC.
As you pointed out. They can't tell the difference even if they try (ie build a better mouse trap and I will build a better mouse).
A developer should be able to tell the difference between a character being controlled by a human than scripted. I can and a lot of other gamers can when they see it.
I could also tell a boxer controlling all the characters individually and them botting them.
If so, then I think you missed your calling. You should easily be able to design that software or teach that method of evidence establishment to them for a bank roll of money. You will have studios knocking on your door 24/7 to get you to come consult them.
The reason it's hard for developers to spot boxers that aren't botting as it will look like a group of actual gamers doing the content.
By the way, I can make a group of characters look and act like a player is controlling them. /shrug
If you aren't botting you'd normally contact the developer and tell them you weren't.
However, no one here has explained how developers can't tell the difference between someone botting or not like @Rallyd said in what I quoted. How can they not know when they've been banning botters since before MMO's were a thing? I find it hard to believe that they just ban gamers with no proof.
Some bots have been made to give automated responses when you send them a tell. So, the fact that they respond doesn't mean they are a person. Also, as I explained with my phone example, it could still be a bott with a contingency built in to contact the person who owns the bott so they can respond. So again, you can't tell.
Bot players do contact customer service, and then claim they weren't botting, which is why a lot of them get their accounts back. The company can not prove they were botting, so if a person comes back and contests them with some bullshit story, they usually just warn them and give the account back. Most companies will take the side of caution and risk allowing a botter back in the game, then risk banning a real player.
The issue I'm having is that some posters are claiming multi-boxing is in league with botting without explaining why. All they're proving is a total lack of knowledge about multi-boxing.
You can multi-box without botting. Like you can solo with out botting, or you can group up without botting.
My guess is they could not stop someone from running a separate account on different computer and joining them all together with a single set of controls.
In fact back in 2003 a guy did that on Mordred and ran 9 accounts on 9 computers all running as an Animist and with single controller could drop 20 or more turrets simultaneously.
He really was doing a primative form of botting, but how would you stop him?
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The point is that by allowing one, you make is nearly impossible to differentiate between them, but if you ban it entirely, it is much easier to prove someone is boxing than it is to prove they are botting due to the many examples given.
That aside, consider the main point here that boxing is also bad for a group focused game anyway because it allows a player to solo the game with multiple characters.
Why make a group dependent game that centralizes itself around the concept of social reliance and dependency,to build classes on that concept and to state you are not going to be catering to solo play, that it is not the goal and then turn around and think that a person soloing a group is inline with that idea?
Multi-boxing vs botting is really just a red herring avoiding the real issue is that boxing is counter to the entire concept of a game like this.
You can not make a legitimate argument that a single person playing multiple characters in their own group, competing against others for content in this focus of a game is beneficial. It is a failed argument right out of the gate.
There aren't enough boxers to actually think it's a problem in the first place.
There were great communities in games which had/have multi-boxing comunities (SWG, EQ, LOTRO etc.) I could see it effecting that community.
Then there's the multi-boxers who do it just to level up so they've got multiple toons to play with during endgame PvP/Raids where they do group up.
See, I can take a video/logs of you controlling multiple accounts acting in unison and while I can't 100% say you are botting, I can with certainty show you to boxing through numerous methods via network and software tools/protocols.
Basically, boxing gives botting something to hide behind. Without boxing, there is no easy way to bott. I am not saying it is impossible, just much more difficult to do.