People mix up botting / multiboxing / exploiting way too often to have a real conversation about this topic, which is sad.
A "one PC per IP" rule would simply mean 2 less players for our household. We play together, or we don't at all. And i am pretty sure Pantheon is targeting A LOT of the older players that more often then not will be playing with their significant others.
Multiboxing is only really an issue if the game is FTP. So some guy wants to play his own group of 6? Well. He is spending 90ish bucks a month for that. The same 90 bucks a group of 6 friends would pay. The devs win, either way.
You think it is unfair? Why? Everyone can do it. If it is as easy as people make it sound to be, then why not do it yourself if it is THAT unfair? You might find out that it is not all that easy and setting up can take days. Also depending on content you will not even get within 50% performance of a real player, screwing you over yourself.
Sure, if content is easymode. Combat is fire and forget. Game is FTP and playing a second toon yourself means you are better of then taking another player along,... THEN Multiboxing can get messy and out of hand. But Pantheon is not supposed to be easy, not supposed to be fire and forget combat, not FTP... so there is nothing to fear here.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Well to me its not even about being fair. Its just wrong and clearly so. The excuses of its done all the time and anything else does not make it right. Just as a white lie is still a lie. Its well intentioned and seems harmless but its still a lie. That doesnt make it right, it just means our morals are sliding.
if I tell you to go to the store but I also say you cant use my car. You cant justify using my car to go to the store
if I tell you this is a group based game with a focus on player interdependence. You cant justify using multiple characters simultaneously to bypass that. Its against the very spirit of the game.
Example, I have 2 WoW accounts. I use my max level toon to run my low toon through dungeons, kill rares and whatever else I need. How is that hurting anyone?
Boxing isn't nearly as big of an issue in WoW due to instanced content. It becomes much more magnified in a static world when a boxed group can clear and monopolize content.
I get why developers allow boxing - it gives the development team more money - without "cheating."
However, I stand with Amsai and wormed and am firmly against boxing. Most that support Pantheon and old school games in general scream they are against pay to win games, but, support multi-boxing, which is completely contradictory.
Boxing is a subscription based pay-to-win.
You are paying extra money for multiple accounts to tackle content, have skills, abilities, etc. that you would not have as one player. It trivializes content, ruins communities, and affects grouping - all which are detrimental to a group oriented game. EQlaunch allowed boxing, but it was few and far between (thanks dial-up). EQ's experience won't be recaptured today if boxing is allowed with high-speed internet connections.
And, if Pantheon is at the point where the population would deem boxing necessary for progression because there's "nothing to do because there are no groups" - then the game is dead already.
Multiboxing of any form is an automatic game killer for me. I love this project but that is something that will assure they don't get any money from me.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I'm happy with or without. I've done multiple games boxing and solo. Both have their merits, especially in a PvE game. Never really understood the righteous 1 boxer complex.
edit for clarity.
Our stance:
Boxing will be allowed, but the way our characters and abilities are set up it will make it very hard. We will not tolerate cheats, gold farmers or botting programs but having multiple accounts to dual box is perfectly fine.
I'm more worried about what it will say about Pantheon if players are able to effectively box multiple characters.
Personally, I don't mind if people box as long as its far less efficient. If some guy is buffing and healing himself, slowly grinding away, that's not so much of a problem. In such a scenario, that person would likely welcome real people to join his group because it should drastically increase his group performance. If not, there is an issue.
Its the people using software that automates the process that is the real problem.
I have no problem with anyone duo boxing as long as it is legit and not software run which sadly is about 99% of the time.
You want to remove it from the game or at least stop 5/6 boxers,then make grouping viable,incentives for grouping,make combat all about interaction with players in a group because you can only really imo play 2 characters decently 3 or more and your going to struggle badly ,without cheating of course.
I Agree. I don't have a problem with it myself, have done it in LOTRO just to make the leveling experience that more fun/challenging.
I don't use any software that allows same key binding on different skills over multiple clients.
I'd like to see an MMORPG like Balders Gate, Divinity Original Sin etc where you do control multiple characters.
Here's an example, of why multiboxing is unfair I feel.
I used to pull everything in PoN, plane of nightmare, onto one of my higher level characters. I leveled characters to lvl 70 in around 3 days. Other people took months.
By the time my character was lvl 70, the character hadn't killed a single mob by herself, she had never even casted a single spell. The only thing the character did was stand there and take XP for 70 levels without dying once.
And you could argue, that people who had higher level raid characters, should be granted the right to just level as many alts as quickly as possible.
I had every class in EQ at one point at max level.
But deep down inside, I knew it was completely unfair. It was only through multiboxing, through higher level characters, that you could so easily exploit the game like that.
You could PL like that with friends, but it was only through multiboxing that you could continuously level characters for your guild, that you could have whichever buffs you wanted on you 24/7, it was completely unfair.
EQ will always be my favorite MMO, but it will also always be the most unfair game I ever played. And multiboxing greatly attributed to the fact why the game wasn't fair.
To be honest, I dont really care about other peoples traumas from the past. If you dont like it, dont do it.
And when I talk about dualboxing, i was thinking about having two computers, two monitors, two keyboards and mices. Because that way I can be in two places and for example craft in the second account while my primary has downtime.
To be honest, I dont really care about other peoples traumas from the past. If you dont like it, dont do it.
And when I talk about dualboxing, i was thinking about having two computers, two monitors, two keyboards and mices. Because that way I can be in two places and for example craft in the second account while my primary has downtime.
It should be recognized, that one of the reasons people play MMO, is to get better gear, get better stats, and compare themselves to others.
You can call these people power gamers, or whatever you like.
Just like sports, or other activities where people compare themselves to others, there should be a minimum degree of balance and honesty within the game.
Tennis is 1 against 1, it's not 1 against 2. Everyone would call that unfair. It's no different in MMO.
It is completely normal that someone would feel slighted if another person has 2 or 3 times the power they have through multiboxing.
"multiboxing isn't fair", is an argument I agree with. It doesn't need to be a convoluted argument, it simply is not fair.
Not a fan of Multiboxing, but one cannot stop it from happening either. That person would need to purchase everything twice (some people on some games have 10 all running round), they must have a hell of a good system and plenty of money to do that. Me, i would rather just have 1 character and avoid PvP type games as a whole. You would not be able to compete in that sort of game.
There are ways to severely hamper it to where only the very tech savy can do it. Then you catch those folks in game through players reporting, etc...
It would be rather draconian and sure to cause a lot of tantrums.
That is why I think a rule set server would be best for it. There is no reason someone could even remotely justify doing it on a special server when there are other servers that allow it. This way you can ban their account, IP, CC, and take any other draconian measure to tell them to piss off because there is no reasonable argument to support them doing it on that server.
Personally I would just rather them not allow multiboxing, but they have already said it would be permitted. So,I would be in support for and would roll on a no-multiboxing server (too bad one has not been announced yet).
I'm more worried about what it will say about Pantheon if players are able to effectively box multiple characters.
Personally, I don't mind if people box as long as its far less efficient. If some guy is buffing and healing himself, slowly grinding away, that's not so much of a problem. In such a scenario, that person would likely welcome real people to join his group because it should drastically increase his group performance. If not, there is an issue.
Its the people using software that automates the process that is the real problem.
With macro/scripting keyboards, game pads, and mice (with many buttons), virtual machines, and tons of software already written out there for multi-boxing games, I really don't think it will matter. There isn't a game out there that I couldn't make a setup work well with. It isn't like the old days where it took some effort and skill to box characters. Now you can do it without ever changing screens or moving your hand away from the keyboard.
Now I am not saying they should give in. It is one thing for a person to box in an old game where the populations are dwindling, but entirely a different thing in a new game which will have such.
"multiboxing isn't fair", is an argument I agree with. It doesn't need to be a convoluted argument, it simply is not fair.
Depends. I'd only class multiboxing unfair if the person is using software that allows one keyboard/mouse press to control all characters.
If the player is controlling them individually I wouldn't class it as unfair.
Your tennis analogy doesn't work either as that 1 v 2 could actually happen without some one multiboxing.
One keyboard/mouse press? Or lets say there is a second set of of keys for each character that you cycle through like you would switch a hot bar page of skills on a single character? So, 1-5 are my Warrior skills, then I shift-2 and 1-5 are my cleric skills, etc...
Maybe I even tie in a single button macro called "heal the tank" where it does all of that on its own. That is, my macro targets my tank, switches my bar with shift-2, hits key 3 which is the heal button, and switches it back with shift-1 back to my warrior.
How are you going to stop that when that function is built into the firmware of my keyboard? The best you could do is ban me using that keyboard (Many mmos did with the G-15 keyboards). See, you can't allow it and then only allow "certain" things about it. If you allow it, then all of it will happen and there is nothing you can do about it.
People don't understand how easy it is to do things these days. It doesn't take any tech skill or talent.
Simply not allowing your game to launch more than one instance of the game, and making the use ISBoxer a bannable offense, would help prevent some of the multiboxing.
Trinity games are much more vulnerable to multiboxing than other games. It's hard to multibox in an action MMO.
That's actually one of the reasons I'm not against instances. It was MUCH harder to multibox in some of the EQ instances that ran scripts. Multiboxing Tipt or the Ikkinz group trials was much harder than just pulling a bunch of mobs in the open world.
The EQ instances gave you challenge. An instance gives the developer the ability to run a script.
All of the more difficult content and raids, all took place in instances.
I don't like games that are only instances. But if you want challenging content, you need scripted content, and it is much easier to implement in an instance that you can reset. Many of the difficulties during the EQ beta I played, were developers frustrated with some of the mechanics in open world, constantly having to announce they were taking down a zone for example, that didn't happen with instances, they could keep rebooting and restarting the instance.
One keyboard/mouse press? Or lets say there is a second set of of keys for each character that you cycle through like you would switch a hot bar page of skills on a single character? So, 1-5 are my Warrior skills, then I shift-2 and 1-5 are my cleric skills, etc...
Maybe I even tie in a single button macro called "heal the tank" where it does all of that on its own. That is, my macro targets my tank, switches my bar with shift-2, hits key 3 which is the heal button, and switches it back with shift-1 back to my warrior.
How are you going to stop that when that function is built into the firmware of my keyboard? The best you could do is ban me using that keyboard (Many mmos did with the G-15 keyboards). See, you can't allow it and then only allow "certain" things about it. If you allow it, then all of it will happen and there is nothing you can do about it.
People don't understand how easy it is to do things these days. It doesn't take any tech skill or talent.
That's not a problem exclusive to multiboxing (macros/scripts). I can make controlling a single character easier to play using macros.
A healer playing with people can make the same "heal the tank" macro.
The software I was talking about was one that bound keys to multiple clients. For example I had 3 LOTRO clients running but I only needed to see one, other two minimized. I didn't need to alt-tab through the other two to issue commands as this software did it for me.
Simply not allowing you to launch more than one instance of the game, and making using ISBoxer an offense, would stop much of the multiboxing.
Trinity games are much more vulnerable to multiboxing than other games. It's hard to multibox in an action MMO.
That's actually one of the reasons I'm not against instances. It was MUCH harder to multibox in some of the EQ instances that ran scripts. Multiboxing Tipt or the Ikkinz group trials was much harder than just pulling a bunch of mobs in the open world.
The EQ instances gave you challenge.
You don't need instances, I can use VMware and load multiple OS's with the game on each virtual machine on a single machine who will all act as if they were full separate machines on the network. In fact, I will actually control those machines via the network by a multicast of my keyboard commands being sent across the network.
Nothing is hard these days. Nothing you do will challenge me. I can make a 6 man party function under my single control effortlessly and often in better unison than individuals, so unless you make the game a mortal combat action arcade spam fest, it won't cause me any issues and even then it isn't likely to.
The fact is... you can not fight this from a allowance stance. That is, you can't say "we will allow this, but not that...". I know Pantheon's team does not have the resources to monitor and selectively enforce this.
Honestly, the only way I know they can reduce it is to take a reactive approach to a violation by using contract law as a means to fine people for violations (ie 300 dollar fine for violation). That would piss off a lot of people though as well as take away the time they need to spend on the game itself.
That leaves the community as the last resort. A strong community of zero tolerance to the activity combined with working with VR to ban those who do it is the only way you can keep it to a minimum. Though that can never happen if 1/2 your player base thinks it is acceptable in play. It is the same with RMT, you can't stop it if your player base thinks it is ok to cheat. It is a lost cause.
This issue is interesting though as we have not had a game like EQ in a long time. It will be interesting to see the outcome to the social aspect of play when it starts to occur. I am not trying to fear monger, I am being practical and realistic here. This will be a problem, especially in a game that is built around group reliance and difficult contested content. VR is going to need to think on this and the possible risks involved with it to be prepared to take action if it gets out of hand.
How much noticeable boxing goes on in pantheon is going to be down to how challenging and engaging combat is. If you have the time and ability to box people are going to do it and stopping it and policing it will be difficult. Its on Brad and the team to make a game where one person will struggle to box effectively.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nothing is hard these days. Nothing you do will challenge me. I can make a 6 man party function under my single control effortlessly and often in better unison than individuals.
There are several EQ instances, that to this day, can not be boxed.
Daosheen the firstborn is one. It's an event that is a decade old.
Cursecallers can't be boxed either, you will get snared and the event will keep resetting and you'll die.
The Beast is another one that will never be boxed.
Trinity games are far more vulnerable to multiboxing than fast paced action games, but there are several ways to prevent multiboxers from thriving through properly scripted instances.
Maybe I am ignorant. However simply in my own expirience never had a problem with this. So why should I care because others claim this is such a big problem. Can it be abused? Sure, so could 18 people on different computers. Infact the change of that happening is a lot bigger (Like a lot), so maybe we should just all go playing singleplayer games instead?
However I do agree with you scripting is wrong. Regardless how many toons someone is controlling. Like i said what you are doing is fearmongering, just getting two different issues and mix them together to show how evil one thing is. Using scripts to gain an inhuman advantage is wrong. Controlling multiple character at the same time is not.
18 people on different computers is what was done 15 years ago. These days? I can do the same thing on a single computer that is of average computing power and with software programs an idiot computer illiterate person could use.
Yes Coman, you are ignorant (that is not an offense, just a blunt fact) and yes, this can be a very big problem that can effect your play.
Here is the thing. You allow me to box, now tell me how you can tell if I am scripting? Remmeber, I am a single guy setting at a single computer with 18 virtual PCs which are no differnt than 18 real PCs AND I have scripting that tells me when any of my PCs get a tell and patches it to me either in game, or... because I am clever, through a 3rd party system outside of the game. So you can't test me with a GM, because I can answer to them the moment they send me a tell and you can't "test" with software because I have blocked your ability to do so.
So what are you going to do?
Nothing, remember... it doesn't effect you right?
You do realize the way you presented this, there appears to be no way to stop you, even if they don't want people to multibox.
But even so I'm pretty sure they could find you out regardless how clever you try to be.
Thing is would they really want to if you are paying for all those accounts?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm more worried about what it will say about Pantheon if players are able to effectively box multiple characters.
Personally, I don't mind if people box as long as its far less efficient. If some guy is buffing and healing himself, slowly grinding away, that's not so much of a problem. In such a scenario, that person would likely welcome real people to join his group because it should drastically increase his group performance. If not, there is an issue.
Its the people using software that automates the process that is the real problem.
With macro/scripting keyboards, game pads, and mice (with many buttons), virtual machines, and tons of software already written out there for multi-boxing games, I really don't think it will matter. There isn't a game out there that I couldn't make a setup work well with. It isn't like the old days where it took some effort and skill to box characters. Now you can do it without ever changing screens or moving your hand away from the keyboard.
Now I am not saying they should give in. It is one thing for a person to box in an old game where the populations are dwindling, but entirely a different thing in a new game which will have such.
All the things you suggested are beyond what constitutes normal boxing. That is automation and should be a bannable offense.
They apparently aren't going to disallow boxing, so they should be ready to crack down hard when people go beyond naturally controlling two characters. Boxing may be hard to prevent, but its super easy to tell when someone is cheating. Playing EQ or EQ2 on live servers, you never have to ask, its obvious.
You do realize the way you presented this, there appears to be no way to stop you, even if they don't want people to multibox.
But even so I'm pretty sure they could find you out regardless how clever you try to be.
Thing is would they really want to if you are paying for all those accounts?
There is a way to fight it, but they won't completely stop it. Like I said, they have to go at it from different angles I think to be effective. (by the way, I have no desire to do this. I think people who do this in a game where there is no need are cheaters).
As for would they really want to? Well, if they only cared about cash, why not add an RMT store as well, and many other gimmicks that all of those mainstream games due to soak up the cash? Pantheon isn't about "making all that money", you need to read the tenants/features on their site.
You don't market old school EQ to a crowd and then promote mainstream gimmicks to make money. It is how you run off your target crowd and end up with a bunch of game hoppers passing through and moving on.
Here's an example, of why multiboxing is unfair I feel.
I used to pull everything in PoN, plane of nightmare, onto one of my higher level characters. I leveled characters to lvl 70 in around 3 days. Other people took months.
By the time my character was lvl 70, the character hadn't killed a single mob by herself, she had never even casted a single spell. The only thing the character did was stand there and take XP for 70 levels without dying once.
And you could argue, that people who had higher level raid characters, should be granted the right to just level as many alts as quickly as possible.
I had every class in EQ at one point at max level.
But deep down inside, I knew it was completely unfair. It was only through multiboxing, through higher level characters, that you could so easily exploit the game like that.
You could PL like that with friends, but it was only through multiboxing that you could continuously level characters for your guild, that you could have whichever buffs you wanted on you 24/7, it was completely unfair.
EQ will always be my favorite MMO, but it will also always be the most unfair game I ever played. And multiboxing greatly attributed to the fact why the game wasn't fair.
Well i hope you don't feel offended but you are using bad game examples.A bad game is just a bad game,you shouldn't be able to get xp off a high level character.Now i understand the PL idea of using say a 75 healer to level up a level 10 but again i say BAD GAME DESIGN.
First of all you shouldn't be getting max level in a few days or even a few months,otherwise levels are meaningless and the game is shallow.Secondly you could have a safe heal all you want,your SINGLE player doing the actual killing to get the actual xp is going to be killing super SLOW making it a fair tradeoff.
I know people don't like me constantly using FFXI as an example but you know what,other developers should learn a at least a BETTER game design even if you don't agree it was the best ,i say it most certainly was BETTER.
I will point out all scenarios from FFXI pertaining to PL and duo boxing because i have done it.
First of all it took a year to get a max level character back in vanilla and you learned EVERY class on the same player,so really there was no need to even bother with duo boxing.But none the less lets say after a year or so you finally get there and want to raise another toon.Your toon would kill so slow it would literally take 2-5 minutes if trying to fight say a VT "very tough" mob to get good xp.A group could not only kill it faster but you could fight tougher mobs ,sometimes 5/6/7+ levels higher than you.
Now lets say you duo box at legit levels.Say a healer of some type and a dps,well in FFXI the dps for the most part took a lot of damage,so you would be healing too much,drawing hate and likely dying.So you use a healer and Tank,you don't have the damage,again too slow and you still won't be able to fight for maximum damage where as a group can.
Soloing could be done in FFXI,Beastmaster was a brilliant class design and imo fun as well.You had to first level a class to 30 to attain it,then you had to quest it,tough quest as well for that level.You could duo box 2x Beastmaster ,again same problem,you add in that second player ,your xp drops off and you still have a tough time fighting,nothing is EASY mode,so again a REAL group is just better,faster.
Bottom line?A good game offers you CHOICE,sure you could duo box in a game such as FFXI if you wanted,both legit level and PL there was no benefit to doing it other than CHOICE.IMO players should have choice,that is also why i despise questing for xp,ev1 follows the same laid out path,instead of allowing players choice in where they fight and what they fight.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
A "one PC per IP" rule would simply mean 2 less players for our household. We play together, or we don't at all. And i am pretty sure Pantheon is targeting A LOT of the older players that more often then not will be playing with their significant others.
Multiboxing is only really an issue if the game is FTP. So some guy wants to play his own group of 6? Well. He is spending 90ish bucks a month for that. The same 90 bucks a group of 6 friends would pay. The devs win, either way.
You think it is unfair? Why? Everyone can do it. If it is as easy as people make it sound to be, then why not do it yourself if it is THAT unfair? You might find out that it is not all that easy and setting up can take days. Also depending on content you will not even get within 50% performance of a real player, screwing you over yourself.
Sure, if content is easymode. Combat is fire and forget. Game is FTP and playing a second toon yourself means you are better of then taking another player along,... THEN Multiboxing can get messy and out of hand. But Pantheon is not supposed to be easy, not supposed to be fire and forget combat, not FTP... so there is nothing to fear here.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
if I tell you to go to the store but I also say you cant use my car. You cant justify using my car to go to the store
if I tell you this is a group based game with a focus on player interdependence. You cant justify using multiple characters simultaneously to bypass that. Its against the very spirit of the game.
I get why developers allow boxing - it gives the development team more money - without "cheating." However, I stand with Amsai and wormed and am firmly against boxing. Most that support Pantheon and old school games in general scream they are against pay to win games, but, support multi-boxing, which is completely contradictory.
Boxing is a subscription based pay-to-win. You are paying extra money for multiple accounts to tackle content, have skills, abilities, etc. that you would not have as one player. It trivializes content, ruins communities, and affects grouping - all which are detrimental to a group oriented game. EQlaunch allowed boxing, but it was few and far between (thanks dial-up). EQ's experience won't be recaptured today if boxing is allowed with high-speed internet connections.
And, if Pantheon is at the point where the population would deem boxing necessary for progression because there's "nothing to do because there are no groups" - then the game is dead already.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
edit for clarity.
Our stance:
Boxing will be allowed, but the way our characters and abilities are set up it will make it very hard. We will not tolerate cheats, gold farmers or botting programs but having multiple accounts to dual box is perfectly fine.
Personally, I don't mind if people box as long as its far less efficient. If some guy is buffing and healing himself, slowly grinding away, that's not so much of a problem. In such a scenario, that person would likely welcome real people to join his group because it should drastically increase his group performance. If not, there is an issue.
Its the people using software that automates the process that is the real problem.
I don't use any software that allows same key binding on different skills over multiple clients.
I'd like to see an MMORPG like Balders Gate, Divinity Original Sin etc where you do control multiple characters.
I used to pull everything in PoN, plane of nightmare, onto one of my higher level characters. I leveled characters to lvl 70 in around 3 days. Other people took months.
By the time my character was lvl 70, the character hadn't killed a single mob by herself, she had never even casted a single spell. The only thing the character did was stand there and take XP for 70 levels without dying once.
And you could argue, that people who had higher level raid characters, should be granted the right to just level as many alts as quickly as possible.
I had every class in EQ at one point at max level.
But deep down inside, I knew it was completely unfair. It was only through multiboxing, through higher level characters, that you could so easily exploit the game like that.
You could PL like that with friends, but it was only through multiboxing that you could continuously level characters for your guild, that you could have whichever buffs you wanted on you 24/7, it was completely unfair.
EQ will always be my favorite MMO, but it will also always be the most unfair game I ever played. And multiboxing greatly attributed to the fact why the game wasn't fair.
And when I talk about dualboxing, i was thinking about having two computers, two monitors, two keyboards and mices. Because that way I can be in two places and for example craft in the second account while my primary has downtime.
You can call these people power gamers, or whatever you like.
Just like sports, or other activities where people compare themselves to others, there should be a minimum degree of balance and honesty within the game.
Tennis is 1 against 1, it's not 1 against 2. Everyone would call that unfair. It's no different in MMO.
It is completely normal that someone would feel slighted if another person has 2 or 3 times the power they have through multiboxing.
"multiboxing isn't fair", is an argument I agree with. It doesn't need to be a convoluted argument, it simply is not fair.
If the player is controlling them individually I wouldn't class it as unfair.
Your tennis analogy doesn't work either as that 1 v 2 could actually happen without some one multiboxing.
Now I am not saying they should give in. It is one thing for a person to box in an old game where the populations are dwindling, but entirely a different thing in a new game which will have such.
Maybe I even tie in a single button macro called "heal the tank" where it does all of that on its own. That is, my macro targets my tank, switches my bar with shift-2, hits key 3 which is the heal button, and switches it back with shift-1 back to my warrior.
How are you going to stop that when that function is built into the firmware of my keyboard? The best you could do is ban me using that keyboard (Many mmos did with the G-15 keyboards). See, you can't allow it and then only allow "certain" things about it. If you allow it, then all of it will happen and there is nothing you can do about it.
People don't understand how easy it is to do things these days. It doesn't take any tech skill or talent.
Trinity games are much more vulnerable to multiboxing than other games. It's hard to multibox in an action MMO.
That's actually one of the reasons I'm not against instances. It was MUCH harder to multibox in some of the EQ instances that ran scripts. Multiboxing Tipt or the Ikkinz group trials was much harder than just pulling a bunch of mobs in the open world.
The EQ instances gave you challenge. An instance gives the developer the ability to run a script.
All of the more difficult content and raids, all took place in instances.
I don't like games that are only instances. But if you want challenging content, you need scripted content, and it is much easier to implement in an instance that you can reset. Many of the difficulties during the EQ beta I played, were developers frustrated with some of the mechanics in open world, constantly having to announce they were taking down a zone for example, that didn't happen with instances, they could keep rebooting and restarting the instance.
A healer playing with people can make the same "heal the tank" macro.
The software I was talking about was one that bound keys to multiple clients. For example I had 3 LOTRO clients running but I only needed to see one, other two minimized. I didn't need to alt-tab through the other two to issue commands as this software did it for me.
Nothing is hard these days. Nothing you do will challenge me. I can make a 6 man party function under my single control effortlessly and often in better unison than individuals, so unless you make the game a mortal combat action arcade spam fest, it won't cause me any issues and even then it isn't likely to.
The fact is... you can not fight this from a allowance stance. That is, you can't say "we will allow this, but not that...". I know Pantheon's team does not have the resources to monitor and selectively enforce this.
Honestly, the only way I know they can reduce it is to take a reactive approach to a violation by using contract law as a means to fine people for violations (ie 300 dollar fine for violation). That would piss off a lot of people though as well as take away the time they need to spend on the game itself.
That leaves the community as the last resort. A strong community of zero tolerance to the activity combined with working with VR to ban those who do it is the only way you can keep it to a minimum. Though that can never happen if 1/2 your player base thinks it is acceptable in play. It is the same with RMT, you can't stop it if your player base thinks it is ok to cheat. It is a lost cause.
This issue is interesting though as we have not had a game like EQ in a long time. It will be interesting to see the outcome to the social aspect of play when it starts to occur. I am not trying to fear monger, I am being practical and realistic here. This will be a problem, especially in a game that is built around group reliance and difficult contested content. VR is going to need to think on this and the possible risks involved with it to be prepared to take action if it gets out of hand.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Daosheen the firstborn is one. It's an event that is a decade old.
Cursecallers can't be boxed either, you will get snared and the event will keep resetting and you'll die.
The Beast is another one that will never be boxed.
Trinity games are far more vulnerable to multiboxing than fast paced action games, but there are several ways to prevent multiboxers from thriving through properly scripted instances.
You do realize the way you presented this, there appears to be no way to stop you, even if they don't want people to multibox.
But even so I'm pretty sure they could find you out regardless how clever you try to be.
Thing is would they really want to if you are paying for all those accounts?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They apparently aren't going to disallow boxing, so they should be ready to crack down hard when people go beyond naturally controlling two characters. Boxing may be hard to prevent, but its super easy to tell when someone is cheating. Playing EQ or EQ2 on live servers, you never have to ask, its obvious.
As for would they really want to? Well, if they only cared about cash, why not add an RMT store as well, and many other gimmicks that all of those mainstream games due to soak up the cash? Pantheon isn't about "making all that money", you need to read the tenants/features on their site.
You don't market old school EQ to a crowd and then promote mainstream gimmicks to make money. It is how you run off your target crowd and end up with a bunch of game hoppers passing through and moving on.
First of all you shouldn't be getting max level in a few days or even a few months,otherwise levels are meaningless and the game is shallow.Secondly you could have a safe heal all you want,your SINGLE player doing the actual killing to get the actual xp is going to be killing super SLOW making it a fair tradeoff.
I know people don't like me constantly using FFXI as an example but you know what,other developers should learn a at least a BETTER game design even if you don't agree it was the best ,i say it most certainly was BETTER.
I will point out all scenarios from FFXI pertaining to PL and duo boxing because i have done it.
First of all it took a year to get a max level character back in vanilla and you learned EVERY class on the same player,so really there was no need to even bother with duo boxing.But none the less lets say after a year or so you finally get there and want to raise another toon.Your toon would kill so slow it would literally take 2-5 minutes if trying to fight say a VT "very tough" mob to get good xp.A group could not only kill it faster but you could fight tougher mobs ,sometimes 5/6/7+ levels higher than you.
Now lets say you duo box at legit levels.Say a healer of some type and a dps,well in FFXI the dps for the most part took a lot of damage,so you would be healing too much,drawing hate and likely dying.So you use a healer and Tank,you don't have the damage,again too slow and you still won't be able to fight for maximum damage where as a group can.
Soloing could be done in FFXI,Beastmaster was a brilliant class design and imo fun as well.You had to first level a class to 30 to attain it,then you had to quest it,tough quest as well for that level.You could duo box 2x Beastmaster ,again same problem,you add in that second player ,your xp drops off and you still have a tough time fighting,nothing is EASY mode,so again a REAL group is just better,faster.
Bottom line?A good game offers you CHOICE,sure you could duo box in a game such as FFXI if you wanted,both legit level and PL there was no benefit to doing it other than CHOICE.IMO players should have choice,that is also why i despise questing for xp,ev1 follows the same laid out path,instead of allowing players choice in where they fight and what they fight.
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