MIDORA - Failed Kickstarter Project begins refunding process for backers

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  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    edited November 2016

    MAJOR UPDATE: REFUNDS PROMISED TO BACKERS IN FULL!

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/posts/1463740

    This is quite a lengthy post as such you will need to navigate to the link above to read the rest!



    Over 70% of the new [Backers Comments] are saying they DO NOT want a refund.





    Those who pledged a larger amount DO WANT a refund.




    Except for this guy... who is willing to depart with a large donation



    These guys refuse to depart with their smaller pledge and expect it back in full!




    10% of others want the code, art, sounds open sourced and if they do not then...



    However... in the livestream back in Nov-2015 they claimed they have zero intentions on open sourcing as they plan to soldier on.

    While they are no longer considered con-artists, or scammers... everyone will surely remember the failure and they will very likely never be able to host another successful crowdfunding campaign again.

    ...AND SO THAT IS THE STORY CONCLUSION OF MIDORA AND THE INEXPERIENCED DEVELOPERS OVER AT EPIC MINDS.



    Been fun reporting on this... time to find another story to follow!
    Post edited by Tybost on
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,181
    Tybost said:


    While they are no longer considered con-artists, or scammers... everyone will surely remember the failure and they will very likely never be able to host another successful crowdfunding campaign again.

    ...AND SO THAT IS THE STORY CONCLUSION OF MIDORA AND THE INEXPERIENCED DEVELOPERS OVER AT EPIC MINDS.


    I'd wait until you actually see the refunds before closing the book...

    ...just saying...

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • kitaradkitarad RomeMember EpicPosts: 3,620
    edited January 2016
    Well they're offering to give the money back which is a good sign.
    Post edited by kitarad on

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,181
    kitarad said:
    Well they're offering to give the money back which is a good sign.
    Well yeah... kinda.  He says:

    I first have to pay back close relatives and other parties that helped me way before the kickstarter. Then, I will have to stabilize my own situation. I can't offer refunds as soon as I earn money from a new job. I will need to save up money to create my own insurance, to be able to cover unexpected situations, emergencies.

    However, once that's done, I don't have many options and I won't be able to offer refunds to certain people.


    So I wouldn't be holding my breath.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    First article on the update: https://www.pixeldynamo.com/news/2016/01/12/93407/midoras-developers-offering-refunds-kickstarter-backers/

    I've gone ahead and tipped off kotaku if they're interested (since they made an article on it in the past)
    Tybost said:
    While they are no longer considered con-artists, or scammers... everyone will surely remember the failure and they will very likely never be able to host another successful crowdfunding campaign again.

    ...AND SO THAT IS THE STORY CONCLUSION OF MIDORA AND THE INEXPERIENCED DEVELOPERS OVER AT EPIC MINDS.


    I'd wait until you actually see the refunds before closing the book...

    ...just saying...

    Yeah, no unfortunately with this many people parting way's with their donation, he shouldn't have too much difficulty refunding the small %percentage% that do want one back.

    A majority of backers have been responding very sympathetically to the latest update. It is not the reaction I was expecting to be honest. It would seem many backers have grown up, and are now accepting the fact that they are donating towards something they believe in, and may not see anything in return.




    It goes on and on, and more comments every hour are appearing saying the same thing. Usually you would see people raise hell and call for some type of action.

    One thing is for sure...  those who were being led on are no longer and can now move onto other things. Why don't they care about their pledge? your guess is as good as mine... maybe everyone is just in good spirits since the holiday's just concluded... or they truly do not care after 2-years.
  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    edited January 2016
    My tip to kotaku was successful and the article is now live: http://kotaku.com/failed-73-000-kickstarter-offers-refunds-sort-of-1752504826

    I would like to believe that my thread here has had a small effect on Epic Minds decision. I made it to put pressure on him, and Myhre took notice and responded in this very thread, and is likely still passively reading.
    • Myhre's search for a publisher ended in failure, and he was simply delaying the inevitable.
    I really want the story to be over, and know that it has a chance to take a complete wrong turn by the time he begins opening up full refunds later this summer. All he has to do is find a job and refund the very few who want their money back. I don't plan on following this story anymore or plan to wait until Q3-2016 to find out if he did refund people or not.

    Saying that the story has concluded entirely may be a bit premature, but in my mind the Midora story for now has come to an end. My problem with him and Epic Minds was how backers were being led onto believe that something was happening, when in reality development had ceased and all hope was lost. He left many people in the dark for too long. He knew that he could no longer continue lying to his backers, and hiding the truth that the project was pretty much dead in the water.

    • I again do not see Myhre as a scammer. However, I will continue to view him as an incompetent/incapable director that failed to lead his team and game to victory.
    • Epic Minds had a talented capable team, but they weren't producing enough results during the development after the KS ended.
    Offering refunds is definitely the right way to go at this point... once he pay's it off he can begin rising once more. I will be sitting back and just taking it all in.... where the path leads from here on out... who knows! Hopefully... on the path the update claims to take  ...which is full-refunds to those who want their money back! (which is seemingly very few) as the remorseful comments roll in saying they do not want a refund.

    Again thanks to everyone for reading this thread.

    Good on Epic Minds for For trying to do the right thing, even though they really don't have too! ...making the right decision for disappointed backers!



    You better keep to your words when summer hits... OR...

    ----
    Update: Another new article: http://www.siliconera.com/2016/01/12/creator-midora-offers-refunds-hasnt-given-game-yet/

    (Kotaku has the most outsider comments) those reading the article are commending them and the feedback on various gaming news sites has been overwhelming positive.

    Comments from siliconera (Kotaku+KS-PG has tons of similar comments)


    Myhre is obviously very pleased with the reaction and took to twitter earlier...



    To be fair the project has only been going on for about a year and a half, but the progress made ceased a mere half year after the kickstarter ended. This was ultimately the correct choice to make and they will certainly retain credibility for this move.

    UpdateX2: Another article to anyone interested: http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2016/01/80121-failed-kickstarter-midora-to-eventually-offer-backer-refunds/
    Post edited by Tybost on
  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    One year has passed since the creation of this thread!  o:) I thought id bump it up for those who haven't read this story yet. Happy Holiday's and enjoy the read!  ;)

    Latest Developments: Mhyre still hasn't released any updates since Jan-11th, and has yet to make good on his promise to refund backers. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epicmindsinc/midora-0/posts/1463740



  • StrikeCommandoStrikeCommando Member UncommonPosts: 12
    edited December 2016
    Hello,

    I'm the guy from such wonderful comments screencapped (and deleted by Kickstarter, not me) such as:

    And with 5 minutes of internet sleuthing, I'm sure you can find out I'm also the one who posted the Twitter response quoted above by Tybost.

    I'm here to answer any questions you may have, but also to let everyone who cares know that I have filed a formal complaint with the FTC.  You can see I mentioned that also on Twitter with choice words, but I am sick of Mhyre's BS and I am dead serious:

    The complaint was 100% actually filed, and is going to be continually updated as I find more pertinent information.  I called the FTC last night to update Mhyre's real name I found in a Kotaku article.  I also alerted the creator of that Kotaku article that I took FTC action, so I imagine there may be a follow-up article soon.

    I'm not sure how much I can cuss on this board so I'll try to keep it civil, but this guy needs to pay for his lies and I believe he is honestly a real P.O.S.

    Having run a successfully funded Kickstarter myself (shameless plug: HeavyWeapon.com), I can tell you that I understand expecting to get all the funds you need and coming up short once you actually start production...but there is a level of personal responsibility you have as a non-arsehole/creator to do whatever is necessary and possible to complete your obligations.  These people were kind enough to personally pay for you to complete your project; in many cases a DREAM project.  The least you can do is not lie to them, even if all else fails and you can't complete it.  Most people nice enought o give you money are also nice enough to understand and forgive mistakes.

    Thankfully, I never had to go that route because I took personal responsibility and sold off my beloved Dragon Quest collection (a massive collection of swag that was featured in Nintendo Power (Mar 2006, Vol 201. See for yourself) as well as 98% of my huge video game collection to fund the completion of my Kickstarter, which my estimates had fell drastically short on.  I raised a few thousand dollars, and ultimately spent double what I thought.  But you know what?  the backers never even knew.  I never had to post an update telling them they were going to have to wait, because I began production immediately after getting their funds, found out I under-budgeted and immediately started selling stuff to fill the gap.  They got what I owed them at my expense, but that's what should be done...or refunds.

    In the case of Midora, we were lied to from Day 1, I believe.  I'm pretty sure even the animators and other devs on the project were lied to as well, because if anyone got paid besides Mhyre, I imagine anything more than the 3 screen alpha demo we were given to shut us up would have been completed in a span of 2 years.  We know from his own words that he spent our money on personal stuff.  We also know from his own words that he chose to pay back other PERSONAL debts before he would consider refunding KS backers.  He has continued to use delay tactics for as long as it'll trickle down the amount of people who care enough to tack action.  It's too bad for him that while I might bark a lot, I am also a man of action...and my tipping point takes a lot to get to but I do tip and then I will fight with all the tools possible; just like my willingness to sell all of my prized belongings to complete my project, I am willing to do what it takes to see Mhyre fulfill at least one promise: refunds.

    Mhyre has proven he has no desire to ever make the game. He was given multiple offers by devs and backers to make the game FOR him...for FREE... yet he refused.  The game was never a priority, and never will be.  I doubt that refunds are even a real thought in his mind, versus just being another delay tactic to calm heat and hope people forget.  As long as his project shows up in my list of Backed Projects, I will never forget.  If he wants this to end so he can "move forward" then he needs to rewind the money back into backer pockets first...
    Post edited by StrikeCommando on
  • TrellerTreller Member CommonPosts: 2
    edited January 3
    I tried to warn people during the kickstarter and only a few listened to me, others called me a hater or an idiot that don't know what he is talking about.

    This poject was a scam and nothing else, it had no chance to be completed just like all mhyre's past projects and he knew it since he opened the kickstarter.
    Mhyre love game development and dreams to be a game creator since almost 10 years but he still doesn't has any serious skills or real experience in game development, insteed of learning mhyre has allways been the kind of lazy guy who hire people to work for him, not with money but with promises.
    The reason no serious publisher offered their help is because they knew he lacked experience and the project wasn't serious at all which was obvious.
    Everyone talk about 73k $ but they raised more throught Paypal pledges that were open since the kickstarter reached 60k $.
    I could make a guess of how was this money probably used and if they are still working on the game or not if i dig a bit but it's pointless to even care about this project anymore.

    "what's the point in donating if there won't be enough anyway?" - Mhyre, 2010.
    "I knew that the game would need more than $60,000 to be made" - Mhyre, 2015.
    Post edited by Treller on
  • TrellerTreller Member CommonPosts: 2
    Also, there is no way mhyre will be able to refund all the backers, he should have at least offered backers different options like refund or receiving alternative rewards, for exemple they could make the graphics rewards such as backer's NPCs, monsters, dungeon, and send the sprites to the backers, they could make digital/pixel art wallpapers, posters or other low cost items, the strenght of this project was it's graphics so i'm sure many people would have choose this insteed of a "possible refund" and that would cost way less money.
  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    We'll be finding out more on refunds this month according to a new tweet. The last Kickstarter update was made January 11th, 2016.

    January 3rd, 2017:


  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,331
    It sucks that it did not work out but handling things like this and trying to give refunds really helps the games industry.  As more kickstarter game projects fail without refunds, more people will stay away from funding other projects.  I believe the next big game will come from the indie side so we need things like kickstarter to help fund these ideas/dreams.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • StrikeCommandoStrikeCommando Member UncommonPosts: 12
    I don't believe a thing this idiot says.  He updates once a year on January promising news and refunds, then never follows through.  If anything happened that changed his course of ignoring the existence of Midora's backers, I'm curious if it was due to the FTC complaint finally giving him the kick in the nuts he deserves.
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    Talonsin said:
    It sucks that it did not work out but handling things like this and trying to give refunds really helps the games industry.  As more kickstarter game projects fail without refunds, more people will stay away from funding other projects.  I believe the next big game will come from the indie side so we need things like kickstarter to help fund these ideas/dreams.
    I'm surprised people expect refunds from failed KSer projects.

    I've backed two so far, CU and AO with the full expectation if the projects go tits up nothing is likely coming back.

    Anyone who expects differently is doing it wrong, and should steer clear of these very risky ventures.

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • StrikeCommandoStrikeCommando Member UncommonPosts: 12
    edited January 4
    Actually, you are very wrong about that line of thought...and the FTC agrees that you are owed a refund if there is no intent to finish the project.  It is also like Term #4 in the contract between the creator and backer agreed to via the KS ToS.  It is a binding agreement that you will either complete the project, provide a suitable substitute or offer refunds.  The FTC ruled in favor of backers in a similar case to Midora and it's clear Mhyre has no intent to finish the project and likely never did.  

    If you think Kickstarter backing is a 100% risk venture and you aren't due a product or a refund then YOU sire are doing it wrong.  This is not donations; this is pledging with expectation of a returned value.  If we were talking GoFundMe, it'd be a different story.  It's people like you that make the shitty "creators" think they can skeez out with a bunch of money and have no worry about having to be responsible with your money.
    Post edited by StrikeCommando on
  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    Actually, you are very wrong about that line of thought...and the FTC agrees that you are owed a refund if there is no intent to finish the project.  It is also like Term #4 in the contract between the creator and backer agreed to via the KS ToS.  It is a binding agreement that you will either complete the project, provide a suitable substitute or offer refunds.  The FTC ruled in favor of backers in a similar case to Midora and it's clear Mhyre has no intent to finish the project and likely never did.  

    If you think Kickstarter backing is a 100% risk venture and you aren't due a product or a refund then YOU sire are doing it wrong.  This is not donations; this is pledging with expectation of a returned value.  If we were talking GoFundMe, it'd be a different story.  It's people like you that make the shitty "creators" think they can skeez out with a bunch of money and have no worry about having to be responsible with your money.
    I almost made a long post replying to @Kyleran , but I decided not to since in the end I'm not a backer of this project, and I've never supported a creator on the service. Kickstarter backers are not private investors, or donators according to KS. A binding contract is formed between creator and backer and fulfillment must happen one way or another.



    Unfortunately, the newer updated agreement/ToS you mention does not apply to Midora. The binding agreement you mention only applies to projects created after October 19th, 2014. Midora launched 4 months before the greatly strengthened Agreement/ToS.

    Here is a link to the older agreement/ToS: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012


    He already promised refunds to those that feel burned, and not fulfilling the few that request one would not only be shitty, but messed up. "We took your money to create a game and simply failed to deliver. This shouldn't need explaining but, at the end of the day, we are not thieves." A huge portion of backers expressed they do not want a refund, and only some have requested one. I'm hoping the upcoming update will be filled with news of refunds on the way, as promised last year.

    I originally created this thread out of amusement at it's obvious death, but now I just hope backers like @StrikeCommando get a full refund.
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    edited January 4
    Actually, you are very wrong about that line of thought...and the FTC agrees that you are owed a refund if there is no intent to finish the project.  It is also like Term #4 in the contract between the creator and backer agreed to via the KS ToS.  It is a binding agreement that you will either complete the project, provide a suitable substitute or offer refunds.  The FTC ruled in favor of backers in a similar case to Midora and it's clear Mhyre has no intent to finish the project and likely never did.  

    If you think Kickstarter backing is a 100% risk venture and you aren't due a product or a refund then YOU sire are doing it wrong.  This is not donations; this is pledging with expectation of a returned value.  If we were talking GoFundMe, it'd be a different story.  It's people like you that make the shitty "creators" think they can skeez out with a bunch of money and have no worry about having to be responsible with your money.
    We have an old saying, you can't get blood out a stone, applicable here.

    If the money is spent, doesn't matter what the FTC rules, you aren't likely to get your money back.

    Now sure you can go hire a lawyer to sue for your money back, and if I was a $25K pledger I might consider it.

    But for the couple hundred I gave MJ? If he spends it all on the 3 "B's" I'll just chalk it up to a bad bet and move on.

    Its people like me who understand how the world works, don't worry you'll get there with experience.
    Post edited by Kyleran on

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,959
    edited January 4
    How does a game offer refunds,you have to wonder that  no?

    All money in these crowd funded games is SUPPOSE to be going towards the game,so if they were developing the game,how is all the money there for refunds?

    Smedley did the same thing,offered refunds.I thought about it and realized something...FREE money.

    If i had 20-50k or more and locked it up in some investment with high return,i could make some profits all the while never actually making a game.If i chose a high risk/reward and failed,then not my money and no refunds later on.
    Post edited by Wizardry on

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • StrikeCommandoStrikeCommando Member UncommonPosts: 12
    Wizardry said:
    All money in these crowd funded games is SUPPOSE to be going towards the game,so if they were developing the game,how is all the money there for refunds?

    The problem here is fraud.  Mhyre didn't pay his devs, and instead spent the money on (in his own words) bills and food.
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 806
    Wizardry said:
    All money in these crowd funded games is SUPPOSE to be going towards the game,so if they were developing the game,how is all the money there for refunds?

    The problem here is fraud.  Mhyre didn't pay his devs, and instead spent the money on (in his own words) bills and food.
    That's a lot of friggin' food he must have been eating.
  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    edited January 5
    The problem here is fraud.  Mhyre didn't pay his devs, and instead spent the money on (in his own words) bills and food.
    I created this thread when I detected he was hiding something.

    Once he came out and admitted the truth, that all of the money had been spent and walked in the light once more. He sort of flew up from my shit listing. I'm only taking interest in this because he promised to refund unhappy backers such as yourself. This would be a type of fulfillment, and going that far would rebuild some type of trust on a shack platform.

    It would also make for a great story, and would be a 3 out of 10 shining example of how to handle a KS failure. Communication is still a major issue, and he should at least leave more than one update a year on how things are going. Especially if he plans to keep working on the game, and rebuilding that lost/broken trust.

    I don't doubt that the money was spent on bills and food, but saying that he didn't pay for all the work completed as a fact is shaky. I dug into the backgrounds of all the developers and each of them hold a professional grade talent for their respective job description. I just don't believe that is 100% true.

    • Please check out Pg 02 in this thread on the backgrounds, and if you do a bit of digging you will find that most of the hired developers have deep roots into their respective talent.


    Here is a sneak peak into what we'll be seeing on the upcoming update, according to the recent tweet. Jan-4th: https://t.co/0fNUORyQ52

    TL;DR
    1. We learn that he has no intention of closing down Midora.
    2. He brings up news about getting into contact with companies and publishers, and silently mentions the other more shady companies like Nintendonuggets
    3. He plans an apology for not keeping his backers updated all throughout 2016.
    4. He has paid off all the debts he had with friends and family, and plans to announce that he'll finally be able to start refunding backers as promised in his last update in 2016.
    5. As stated in 1) he has no intention of stopping development on Midora and plans to continue developing it in Unity 3D which will likely be in the upcoming update.
    6. He is moving away from Paris (last known location) to another Country to work for a new job in upcoming "days / weeks".



    Post edited by Tybost on
  • StrikeCommandoStrikeCommando Member UncommonPosts: 12
    edited January 5
    I seem to remember a year or so ago, one or two of the devs claiming he stopped paying them shortly after the campaign ended.  He clearly spent the bulk of the money on everything but the devs and the game.

    It's not surprising considering he knew full and well he needed double what he was asking and the fact that knowing that, he let the campaign finish and took everyone's money then spent it.  How he managed to spend $60,000+ on nothing is suspicious on its own.  We know he didn't spend it on the game because literally ALL of the assets shown in the pitch video (including concept art) are the only progress ever made on the game.  He released his broken "alpha" after a ton of pressure and all it had was the parts shown in the trailer, nothing more.  So that tells me he collected the money, and then did absolutely nothing development-wise with it, quickly got to notifying his devs he wouldn't be able to pay them, they left and he paid off his Russian mob boss [family] who he owed money.  He never spent a dollar on furthering the game.

    Best case scenario here was that he used Kickstarter as an interest free loan to pay back the devs et al that he owed for the "years worth of work" he said they put into getting it where it was when the campaign kicked off.  If that's the case, mayyyybe he hoped that the campaign would be a wild success and he'd end up with the extra cash needed to round it out and he'd be able to pitch it to publishers or whatever.  There's obviously a whole lot of information conveniently missing from his story, and nothing adds up...which is why everyone is pissed, because we're not stupid. 
    Post edited by StrikeCommando on
  • TybostTybost Member UncommonPosts: 596
    I promised to update the thread whenever the 50th update released. I also promised to remove any posts I've made up until now that contain con-artist, thief, etc after/(if) he begins the first wave of refunds. It would seem it will be a while longer before any refunds happen. Click the link to read more.


  • StrikeCommandoStrikeCommando Member UncommonPosts: 12
    It's total bull.  That update was a total non-update.  There were less details in that update than in his Twitter posts.  Basically, his big deal update about refunds he talked so much about boiled down to "no refunds".
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